Parafusion: Legitimate Strategy or HAX?

[Darkflagrance]

Great Sage closed the previous thread because it was related to a specific movepool; that said, the discussion in that thread on the normative value of parafusion itself looked like it was far from resolution.

Basically parafusion is the use of paralysis and confusion to reduce the chance that your opponent moves about 25%. Some people said that this was skilled luck manipulation. Others said that this was pure hax, while others said that it was justifiable in some cases.

Link to original thread:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47567

[Venom]

So what are you trying to discuss or prove...?

[Stagnant]

ParaFusion is completely viable but, it is considered Bad Mannered... IMO. Along with SubSeeding and other similar "stalling" techniques.

[Veedrock]

"Skilled luck manipulation" is exactly what you are using for when using Brightpowder, Confusion, or Paralysis, and seeing as to how none of those are banned concepts (like Evasion raising), why wouldn't it be a legitimate strategy? If they're confused, it may force a switch, which is a setup tactic you plan out. Hax it may be to the loser, but completely legitimate nonetheless.

[the opponent]

SubSeeding is nothing like ParaFusion. With SubSeeding, you have to get in on something that can't threaten you all that much. With ParaFusion, you flip a coin, if heads, you live a bit longer, if tails, try again next turn. I highly doubt the reason why people dislike ParaFusion is because it makes the game longer. It's because it relies on coin flips.

60% accuracy Hypnosis is completely different from 60% chance of flinching. The former can is slowed by Sleep Clause, sleep absorbers, Lum Berry, etc, so unless there is a Flinch Clause, where only one Pokemon on a team is suseptible to flinching, it really isn't the same. In addition, Paralysis would prevent Sleep, whereas it would greatly help flinching.

Of course, hax does occur in Pokemon, and I, like most others, think that this is perfectly fine. However, in a competetive environment, a reliance on hax should not be rewarded. Otherwise, OHKOs and DTesque moves should be unbanned, as they are also based solely on luck.

[Phizzlax]

Parafusion takes up two moveslots and two turns, unlike Flinchhax Togekiss. It also does no damage in the meantime (or menial damage when confusion damage occurs).
That being said, I think it's a decent strategy that normally will just force switches and occasionally have either a higher or lower payout. I like it and see no problem with it. The strategy is susceptable to being ruined by Taunts, Subs, Tricked choice items, Lum, a few abilities, Immunities (for the common paralyzing techniques), etc. There are at least a dozen things I would want to ban before even considering looking at parafusion, which is widely unused and not complained about.

[DT]

Subseeding is nowhere as annoying as it used to be all subseeders are grass barring Smeargle, and cant peform well with be Ice Beamed, HP Iced, and with Ice Shard they're all pretty much ruined since the point is to out speed.

Onto Parafusion, Parafusion is not that deadly it more than likely get one of your pokes, but most of them cant easily be revenge killed, its annoying then again what it isnt?

[wildfire393]

Originally Posted by Fat iownyourgrass

60% accuracy Hypnosis is completely different from 60% chance of flinching. The former can is slowed by Sleep Clause, sleep absorbers, Lum Berry, etc, so unless there is a Flinch Clause, where only one Pokemon on a team is suseptible to flinching, it really isn't the same. In addition, Paralysis would prevent Sleep, whereas it would greatly help flinching.

I disagree with this entirely. You can run pokemon on your team that would receive a benefit from being flinched (Gallade, Lucario, Alakazam, Crobat, Dragonite, Farfetch'd, Girafarig, and Glalie all have an ability that either negates flinching or gives you a benefit when flinched, and that benefit can lead to counteracting further flinch attempts. And the first five of those are BL/OU). You can run priority moves, which always go first and thus circumvent the ability to be flinched. You can run fast pokemon, scarfed pokemon, agility/rock polish pokemon, or DD pokemon that will outspeed the Flincher either immediately or after pulling off the stat-up, thus negating flinch chance. Additionally, if talking specifically about Paraflinching, you can run Ground types, Electivire, or Jolteon to absorb thunderwaves (the most common paralysis effect), and Ghost-types to absorb body slams (probably the second most common paralysis effect).

Also, keep in mind that sleep, in addition to having a random chance of succeeding (unless you are sporing), has a random component in how many turns the pokemon stays asleep. Add this to the fact that the most common "sleep absorb" move (Sleep Talk) selects a move randomly, and almost always has a chance of failing (rest talkers), and you've got a quite random situation indeed.

[Thorns]

Parafusion is a legitimate strategy, though in my opinion it's not worth the effort.

I tried out parafusion once, using Thunder Wave on a couple of Pokemon and sending Machamp in to Dynamicpunch everything. It worked pretty well considering Dynamicpunch hits hard as well as confuses.

[Setrack]

its a legitimate strategy, but the question is: is it a viable strategy?

[Shinryu]

To me, it's perfectly viable, even if infinitely annoying at times. I mean, just for a comparison, it's nowhere near as haxy or luck-based as using Double Team. It doesn't completely shut you down like Sleep or Freeze, and Confusion can always be switched out of.

[Objection]

I think the real question we should be asking isn't "Is parafusion hax or not?" but "What is hax?"

[cim]

Or rather, Objection, "Is hax banned?" because I'm pretty sure it isn't...

[Banana292]

Originally Posted by Fat Chris is me

Or rather, Objection, "Is hax banned?" because I'm pretty sure it isn't...

It's not banned, but it's generally minimised [with OHKO and Evasion being banned most of the time].

With that said, anything is a "viable strategy" if it works. It's all about whether your opponant wants to play with potential annoyingly-long strategies.

Whether it's viable or not is dependant on luck, just like Flinchhax Togekiss.

Parafusion takes up two moveslots and two turns, unlike Flinchhax Togekiss.

~Thunder Wave
~Air Slash
~Roost
~Aura sphere

That looks like 2 moveslots to me =/ And I'm pretty sure ThunderWaving takes up a turn, and air slash takes up another.

[Slobroking]

To answer the topic title: HAX. Confuse Ray in general is hax.

[UltimateUnknown]

Its strategy in terms of hax, thats what it is. Its not banned but its not considered a very honorable way of playing. Quite frankly, I dont mind it because most pokes that I have seen implement parafusion is slow like Lanturn, so switching in something with natural care and then switching out to something faster can kill off the pokemon very easily. It does have its drawbacks wasting to moveslots.

[Sudo]

It's a legitimate strategy that relies on luck, or hax as some people would call it. Then again, doesn't every strategy rely on luck to some extent? It's just that parafusion seems to rely on luck more than other methods would let on.

[Syberia]

Originally Posted by Fat Slobroking

To answer the topic title: HAX. Confuse Ray in general is hax.

But annoying as hell on Rotom forms, especially when combined with Will-o-Wisp.

[jrrrrrrr]

This topic really isn't promoting any discussion, its entirely opinion based so nobody can actually be wrong. =\

Parafusion is luck, no matter how you look at it. Whether or not you are purposely stacking the Random Number Generator in your favor, the outcome is still entirely determined by the RNG and not by you in the end.

Abusing luck is not a winning strategy, it is the same reason why Skymin should never be uber. Sure, it can be annoyingly effective at times but in the long run, waiting for that many consecutive flinches is going to hurt you more than it helps.

[wildfire393]

Originally Posted by Fat Banana292

Whether it's viable or not is dependant on luck, just like Flinchhax Togekiss.



~Thunder Wave
~Air Slash
~Roost
~Aura sphere

That looks like 2 moveslots to me =/ And I'm pretty sure ThunderWaving takes up a turn, and air slash takes up another.

That's two moves, yes. The difference is that one of those moves is a good attack. If you're running Parafusion, you're (generally) running two moves that are NOT attacks (Confuse Ray and Thunderwave).

[Zemyla]

Back in the NetBattle days, when Paraflinch hax meant Dunsparce, I had one in my Normal team. Body Slam/Headbutt/Water Pulse/Ancientpower. And while it wasn't the strongest Pokemon on my team, it was my favorite.

Needless to say, I'm somewhat in favor of parafusion.

Also, something else that some people consider hax: Quick Claw. It's much the same, with a 25% chance of the Pokemon beating a normally faster foe.

[Jumpman16**]

Anyone who seriously gets their panties in a bunch over parafusion needs to polish their battles skills, because as jrrrrrr said it's not a winning strategy in the long run, and that is all that matters.

[Stagnant]

Meh, I'll do this quick note style.

*SubSeeding Pokemon do not have to be faster than than their target. Two examples of this is Breloom and Carnivine. Both are perfectly viable SubSeeders not to mention they can carry status indusing moves to help aid sub seeding.

*ParaFusion is not limited to ConfuseRay and T-Wave. Swagger and Flatter can be devastating with enough luck.

This is all I can think to add to this atm.

[Great Sage]

This thread is pretty pointless.