CAP 6 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 2

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat Frosty

On your decentralizer? 'cause the poke we are creating here is a decentralizer, not anything else, and Unaware already gives you everything you may need and is far far superior to the other options. If you prefer to use No Guard and suffer the consequences of being easy prey to WoWs from pyroak and Heatran, toxic from Blissey, SEs and all the other not 100% accurate attacks in exchange for perfect accuracy on Cross Chop, which is clearly no dynamic punch, (and Hydro Pump, but his Sp.Atk is gonna be bad, so it won't be all that useful), then by all means be my guest, but you can be sure as hell that you are either giving yourself a disadvantage or not using a decentralizer (more like a Machamp with STAB Hydro Pump instead of Fire Blast).

But that is my opinion.

Actually, i was talking about shockproof.

[eric the espeon]

NSA again.
Not everything we make has to have ability's that let it do different things.

We have made 5 Pokemon that can run a highly effective "novelty" set due to a secondary ability (check them). That's ok, but lets give it a break for this one.

[RBG*]

| Syclant | Ability | Mountaineer | 68.2 |
| Syclant | Ability | Compoundeyes | 31.8 |

| Revenankh | Ability | Shed Skin | 88.5 |
| Revenankh | Ability | Air Lock | 11.5 |

| Pyroak | Ability | Battle Armor | 91.3 |
| Pyroak | Ability | Rock Head | 8.7 |

| Fidgit | Ability | Vital Spirit | 72.3 |
| Fidgit | Ability | Persistent | 27.7 |

| Stratagem | Ability | Technician | 52.7 |
| Stratagem | Ability | Levitate | 47.3 |

Only 2 out of the 5 I would call "novelty'

[Imran]

That merely backs up his argument, we have created many Pokemon that have the ability to do something else, and like you showed RB some of them have proved not to be "novelty" at all and have proved to actually have some competitive use. This doesn't need a secondary ability, it has one job to do and that is counter many threats, why you we then assign it another job.

[nihilist]

I voted No Guard
the only reason i see this getting NSA is because we can give it a new ability when gen 5 rolls about or something
I cant help but feel that most of the people voting NSA are only doing it because its the popular choice
it by no means adds anything competitively to leave it with NSA

why do we feel like we have to limit it to unaware only?
who said this poke has to have only 1 job?
aren't we centralizing zapdos even more with this poke?

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat Goldfan

That merely backs up his argument, we have created many Pokemon that have the ability to do something else, and like you showed RB some of them have proved not to be "novelty" at all and have proved to actually have some competitive use. This doesn't need a secondary ability, it has one job to do and that is counter many threats, why you we then assign it another job.

Because Zapdos useage will rise. If we give it shockproof, then it can have the ability to check ALL of the top 5. Without Shockproof, Zapdos useage will go up even more, and we will have filled in our goal because Zapdos centralization will have increased.

And i didn't prove his point. If an ability used by more than 25%, then i doubt it qualifies as a "novelty set"

[Imran]

You didn't directly prove his point, he was saying that:

Not everything we make has to have ability's that let it do different things.

And what you pointed out was that although some were intended as "novelty extras" they actually amounted to "different things that changed the pokemon." He was merely stating that this wasn't importnat. Don't get me wrong I'm not attacking you, I had no idea which side of the "ability argument" you were on. I don't pretend to be an expect on the ins and outs of the CAP metagame hence why I haven't voted in all but one of the polls, I was merely pointing out that this pokemon doesn't need an extra ability that allows it to do something else. If it has another ability that helps it decentrilise more then that is helping it do its job better and something more useful for the project itself.

[TAY]

OK, I'm voting Shockproof. It gives this guy the ability to be a decent check on Zapdos, since with Special Defense investment he will be able to take thunderbolts like a champ. Many of the other top threats can be beaten just with his typing anyway, so if you have a need to beat Zapdos then you can go for this ability!

No Guard seems to turn it away from "checks the top five" and into "annoys the hell out of OU with STAB Dynamicpunch and 100% acc Hydro Pump." It probably wouldn't be overpowered, but it doesn't really fit the theme, and I think we could all do without an additional luck insertion via Dynamicpunch.

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

NSA. I don't want Shockproof because the concept of it is ridiculous, and No Guard is insane with Unaware.

Why is the concept ridiculous? There is precedent for this ability in already existing pokemon. And the idea of it is incredibly simple: "Pokemon takes half-damage from electric attacks."

Originally Posted by Fat Zerix

No Secondary Ability Again, there is no reason for one. Unaware would become the staple anyhow. Shockproof doesn't make sense and it pushing the idea of decentralization a little too far. We don't need it to check every single one of the top five. No Guard could be interesting, but it is unnecessary.

"Doesn't make any sense" is totally irrelevant. If the pokemon turned out to be stretchy and we renamed the ability "rubber hands" then it would make perfect sense; you shouldn't shoot it down just because of the name. Any while it doesn't need to check every single one, doesn't it seem more in the spirit of the concept for it to be able to? Not to mention that, even with this ability, it couldn't check all five at once.

Originally Posted by Fat dmlaw

No secondary ability, primarily to stop Shockproof, which is wholly ridiculous.

Again, why? Are you referring to conceptual ridiculousness? Or that it would be overpowered? I have already discussed why concept is irrelevant, and the general consensus seems to be that it would be the lesser of the two abilities...so I don't see overpowered.

Originally Posted by Fat Jagged Angel

- Offensive Zapdos variants can still 2HKO several submitted stat spreads with Thunderbolt
- Zapdos still has Super Effective Flying STAB, plus other reasons why it is a viable STAB to use

Yeah, if Zapdos runs a lot of special attack and you run no special defense...but considering that this ability would likely be used to help against electric attacks - which pretty much comes down to Thunderbolt and HP Elec, except of Evire - then it would likely be running special defense. And Zapdos almost never runs Drill Peck.

- It does not give CAP6 a means to check Zapdos

Celebi can check zapdos, and it's weak to heat wave. This thing can most certainly check Zapdos if it is neutral to thunderbolt.

- It was created solely to allow CAP6 to check Zapdos

lol, this whole thing was created in order to check 4-5 pokemon. Why shouldn't it have an ability which moves it towards that goal?

- It is contrived and looks very random to have an Electric resist Ability on a Water/Fighting pokemon
- It will draw criticisms of fanboyism from other Smogoners and anyone who thinks that Water / Fighting pokemon shouldn't have an Electric resist

As I stated before, it doesn't need to "make sense." We are creating this solely for competitive purposes. Also, as I am someone who is someone who has spent a great deal of time dealing with CaP (I am even a driver on Doug's server), and someone who is also somewhat of an outsider, I can say without bias that "the ability doesn't make sense" is not where the bad reputation comes from. It comes primarily from the massive bandwagoning and terrible logic (that even goes against the philosophy of CaP) of the posters. If people were not allowed to post their logic for voting outside of discussion threads, and the votes were concealed until the end, you can bet your ass that the outcomes of the votes would be very different.

- If chosen, it will likely sway the Art Poll towards submissions like Atyroki's which have aspects that could explain the weird Ability (this is very unfair on the other artists)

That's stupid...your point here is that "the art I don't like might not win," which is totally irrelevant since we are dealing only with competitive pokemon. It could be a giant purple cube and still have the same traits.

- It is inherently inferior to Unaware.

It is only inferior if you don't care about stopping electric attacks. It is most certainly not totally overshadowed by unaware.

Originally Posted by Fat kamen rider

As for Shockproof, I know a lot of people have argued about needing it so it can check every one of the top 5, but the concept never called for that, all the concepts asks for is a majority and I think 4/5 is a pretty good accomplishment. Plus it doesnt really check Zapdos and outside of Rotom, it really hinders the rest of the OU electrics, which goes against the core concept part about decentralization.

Well it's tough to argue about this before the stats are finalized, but if you give it a decent amount of special defense it could most certainly check Zapdos. Being able to switch into Heat Wave is also a huge plus.

Originally Posted by Fat ParaDoxymoron

Go, No Secondary Ability!

- Having a type combination that's been used in Pokemon before (Fidgit, Poison/Ground)
- Using the same type twice (Revenankh and this, Fighting)
- Making a mono-type Pokemon (Stratagem, Rock)
- Making a mono-ability Pokemon (this, Unaware)

After No Secondary Ability wins this poll, we'll have made all these checks! Which I really think make this a less-fanboyish project.

lol, there isn't some quota for what makes it more or less fanboyish. And the CAP process is inherently fanboyish, so I dont' see why everyone is rejecting that...as I pointed out before, "fanboyism" is not why the CAP forum gets a bad reputation.

Originally Posted by Fat Frosty

I've voted for No Secondary Ability. There is no sense in giving it an ability that it won't use. It will only be a waste of time and space and a unnecessary boost since Unaware already fulfills everything we would want on a decentralizer.

I would use this ability as well. So who is this "no one?"

I realy want no guard, as I find NSA on a CAP kind of a waste. however, with shockproof looking like the only competitor, and I hate the concept of shockproof, I voted NSA to vote against it.

Seriously? This isn't the American Electoral System we're using. We really should be using a blind vote =|

Originally Posted by Fat Goldfan

That merely backs up his argument, we have created many Pokemon that have the ability to do something else, and like you showed RB some of them have proved not to be "novelty" at all and have proved to actually have some competitive use. This doesn't need a secondary ability, it has one job to do and that is counter many threats, why you we then assign it another job.

How does shockproof "assign it another job"? It merely allows it to check a different set of pokemon. Also, it isn't like it totally relies on Unaware to counter the top threats besides Zapdos.

[Legacy Raider]

TAY, Dynamicpunch isn't guaranteed on its movepool. I think most people are sensible enough to realise how annoying this thing would be if it gets No Guard and Dynamicpunch, so if it does get that ability chances are Dynamicpunch will be voted out.

The other benefits of No Guard, namely allowing it to use Cross Chop or Hi Jump Kick over Brick Break (since Close Combat is bad because of lowered defenses), and allowing it to use Hydro Pump / Blizzard, mean that it can have some offensive capabilities instead of just walling the top 5. However, like I've pointed out before, No Guard is great in that it checks itself. Sure, CAP6 can throw around some high powered moves. But its foes can do the same. The only real drawbacks of moves like Fire Blast and Stone Edge are their low pp and accuracy, and when they are always guaranteed to hit CAP6 , they will start to leave a mark despite its resistances. Also, moves like Sing, Will-O-Wisp and Thunder will also hit it with full accuracy, allowing it to be crippled so much more easily.

In the end, No Guard will be an inferior defensive ability to Unaware. The benefits of ignoring your opponent's stat boosts are too good to pass up on a defensive pokemon, and so almost all defensively based CAP6 will choose to run Unaware. However, I think it is important that people still have the choice to use No Guard. It is by no means a 'gimmick' - it would be of great benefit to more offensively inclined sets.

LR.

[TAY]

You are correct in that it is not guaranteed to get Dynamicpunch, and upon further consideration, I think No Guard would be a great ability. However, I still think shockproof would be better, since it more directly applies to "checking the top five pokemon" as opposed to "being really helpful in general."

[Time Mage]

My problem with Shockproof, and why I voted No Secondary, is that this is one of the cases that just having both abilities available benefits it, even if it can only choose one. If I'm using shockproof instead of Unaware, I could switch into one of the pokémon that would defeat CAP6 after a stat up, and make them run away because I switched on their stat up, so they think I have unaware and they run away. Then they switch Zapdos in, only to be fucked when their TB does crap damage and I reply back with Stone Edge/Avalance, or something like that. Sure, the trick is discovered by then, but their Zapdos is now dead or badly wounded, and the stat upper ran away without having to. Now if they want to come back, they won't have the leisure of a stat up on the switch, so CAP6 still retains the advantage.

I just want people to be aware that is is only running unaware, so there's no uncertainty regarding what it counters and what can counter it.

[yokie]

I don't see the point of Shockproof to counter Zapdos. Shockproof DOES NOT make the Fisher resistant to Electric attacks. It takes half of a 2x Super Effective Electric attack, or simply just a neutral attack. I wouldn't want to eat a STAB Thunderbolt from 125 SpA, weakness or neutral. Unaware is just a plain better option over Shockproof, so why bother with another option? Set up Pokemon are much more dangerous than Zapdos now.

[Goodbar]

Time Mage - That is exactly why I voted shockproof. Among other reasons already stated, but oh well looks like a lost cause =/

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

My problem with Shockproof, and why I voted No Secondary, is that this is one of the cases that just having both abilities available benefits it, even if it can only choose one. If I'm using shockproof instead of Unaware, I could switch into one of the pokémon that would defeat CAP6 after a stat up, and make them run away because I switched on their stat up, so they think I have unaware and they run away. Then they switch Zapdos in, only to be fucked when their TB does crap damage and I reply back with Stone Edge/Avalance, or something like that. Sure, the trick is discovered by then, but their Zapdos is now dead or badly wounded, and the stat upper ran away without having to. Now if they want to come back, they won't have the leisure of a stat up on the switch, so CAP6 still retains the advantage.

I just want people to be aware that is is only running unaware, so there's no uncertainty regarding what it counters and what can counter it.

I don't see the problem. My Heatproof Zong does the same thing to Infernape and Heatran. Why is the choice between 2 abilities a problem?

Originally Posted by Fat yokie

I don't see the point of Shockproof to counter Zapdos. Shockproof DOES NOT make the Fisher resistant to Electric attacks. It takes half of a 2x Super Effective Electric attack, or simply just a neutral attack. I wouldn't want to eat a STAB Thunderbolt from 125 SpA, weakness or neutral. Unaware is just a plain better option over Shockproof, so why bother with another option? Set up Pokemon are much more dangerous than Zapdos now.

Again, see heatproof on zong.

[TAY]

Time Mage, I'm sure you are aware that that is the exact situation that Bronzong is in. And is that a bad thing? Though you never really made it clear why this is bad, I'm assuming that your qualm with it is that it introduces more luck into the game. And while this is generally a bad thing, there is an obvious risk and downside to hoping your opponent switches out, since thinking you are unaware. A risk vs reward situation is very different from simply adding more luck into the game.

Honestly I don't see how your situation is any different from sending out non-scarf heatran against Lucario or infernape, or non-scarf Heracross against Ambipom or something. There is also the risk of you misplaying since you assume that your opponent will not call your bluff.

As for Yoki, just because it isn't resistant doesn't mean it cannot counter it. As a comparison, even Machamp (assuming a hefty HP / SpDef investment) is usually 4HKOd by defensive Zapdos' Thunderbolt, and 3HKO'd by an offensive one. So if it could switch in and threaten significant damage then it will certainly be a check, if not an outright counter.

[Time Mage]

Oh, it is good. That is my problem: It is TOO GOOD. As I said, I want it to be a clear counter for what it counters normally... And be clearly countered, as well.

But of course it's good. It just happens that I think it's too much.

[Goodbar]

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

Oh, it is good. That is my problem: It is TOO GOOD. As I said, I want it to be a clear counter for what it counters normally... And be clearly countered, as well.

But of course it's good. It just happens that I think it's too much.

If people abuse it too much, it's going to lose the surprise factor, and there's at least one reason to use Unaware regardless of surprise factor, and that's rev, who probably won't be forced out until he's sure his boosts are missing

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

Oh, it is good. That is my problem: It is TOO GOOD. As I said, I want it to be a clear counter for what it counters normally... And be clearly countered, as well.

But of course it's good. It just happens that I think it's too much.

How does it make it too good? Just writing it in caps doesn't make your point. I've only seen people claim "it won't matter" this is the first time someone has said "this is too good" and i would like to see why you think that

[Time Mage]

I already explained it: It makes what can counter it impossible to know at first. I'm pretty worried that this pokémon may end up being too powerful, and instead of just countering/checking the majority of the top 5 (remember, the majority, it's fine to be countered by Zapdos, since it stops cold 3 of them and goes even with Revenankh), it may end up being powerful enough to be itself a centralizing force.

That's why I made its Special Attack stat unusable in my spread, and that's why I want it to just have Unaware as an ability: I want its weakness to be that it is fairly predictable.

[Bass]

I have said this before in the previous poll, and I will say it again. I think voting No Secondary ability is, at least in my opinion, a rather irresponsible thing to do, considering that the concept is "decentralizer". Whether the ability is Shockproof, No Guard... anything else, we should be allowing our creation to better fulfill our concept rather than wasting our vote on "No Secondary Ability". I will agree that Unaware was the best ability for this concept by far, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't incorporate a second ability.

I voted Shockproof. Yes, you can argue that this ability is somewhat contrived to help our pokemon against Zapdos (And Rotom by extension), but you can't argue that it isn't decentralizing. For those that are, tell me this. If we don't give our Pokemon Shockproof, how will Zapdos usage change? The answer is that it will obviously increase. Thus, Shockproof, while inferior overall to Unaware, is still an ability that will help our pokemon "decentralize" the metagame.

[Magmortified]

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

I already explained it: It makes what can counter it impossible to know at first.

Sounds a lot like Lucario? You can't really "counter it" at first. It's not broken, no, and I don't think CAP6 would be anywhere near as threatening. I don't think it'd be uncounterable by simple virtue of being able to beat Zapdos. :/ Celebi, for one, could probably beat CAP6. Maybe even Starmie. Whatever it doesn't have the ability for can beat it too. That's not even mentioning the needs-paper-counters-mindset being fairly outdated.

I'm pretty worried that this pokémon may end up being too powerful, and instead of just countering/checking the majority of the top 5 (remember, the majority, it's fine to be countered by Zapdos, since it stops cold 3 of them and goes even with Revenankh), it may end up being powerful enough to be itself a centralizing force.

By virtue of being able to beat Zapdos at the cost of taking on Bulk Up'd Revenankhs and taking harder hits from boosting Pokemon? By making a Pokemon designed to beat a large part of the top ten, you're going to end up with a Pokemon that is used a lot. But I think it's a lot less likely that CAP6 would be so centralizing as it would end up overmuch encouraging a possible Zapdos-Tar/Strata/Blissey etc. triangle, which just seems to go against the goal of a decentralizer.

That's why I made its Special Attack stat unusable in my spread, and that's why I want it to just have Unaware as an ability: I want its weakness to be that it is fairly predictable.

Well, by limiting it to Physical attacks, you're already introducing ways to "counter" it, such as Skarmory, or, heck, Weezing. Shockproof alone does not make this thing broken.

[ferron]

time mage, let me see if i get this right:you don't like shockproof because its too mindgame-y for you? seriously, we are doing competitive gaming, since when have the use of mindgames been a bad idea? tyroboah? chainchomp? physical pyroak? heatproof zong? its already been around for a while. confusing your opponent is never a bad thing.

[Not Scicky]

I'd be okay with no-guard, but I went with NO SECONDARY ABILITY