(Gen 3) OU Suicide Team

[ABC-Trainer]

An offense based team, even one that implements explosion as its prime tactic does not and should not sacrifice all of its defense for offensive capability. Reflect on Metagross is about the only thing the team has for support and the move does not have a big enough impact on the other pokemons survivability to justify the teams weakness, especially if a swampert or another such pokemon is on the opposing team preventing Metagross from getting into play effectively. More EVs should be put into defense for all pokes even the weakest ones - in this case a little defense will go much farther than a lot of attack.

In terms of moves, I would suggest the following. Place Giga Drain onto Gengar in the place of the move of your choice (I would suggest Will-O-Wisp). Take the bulk of Snorlax's attack evs and put them into defense and a little into special defense and replace Return with Rest as Selfdestruct is going to be an autoko on most pokemon (bulkier ones that survive will be killed by other pokemons offensive movesets). The stab move is unnecessary in this case as Snorlax is trying to tank instead of sweep. Change Metagross's nature to +Defense or swap the evs around putting in a lot more defense (whichever is statistically most beneficial) as it is your only answer to a strong normal/flying type STAB attacker. I would not suggest changing Alakazam or Dugtrio as they are obviously not built to be defensive in the slightest and they play together nicely as well as fitting the role of sweeper the best. Your Raikou looks decent to me although there's something about it that bothers me but I can't place my finger on it.

[Hey Oh]

woah my team is becoming a discussion thread.

Originally Posted by Fat snookajam

and why dont u just get an endeavor sceptile to kill blissey? its much more effective than your CMzam

zam has more sweeping potential, and less counters then sceptile. Endscep is also extremely predictable as well, which is not something this team wants.

Originally Posted by Fat Lutra

Secondly, I know Hey Oh might not seem like it but I think he is slightly above the level your aiming your comments at. They are not only completely obvious but also imply your complete lack of understanding of the advance metagame. Having a team of six individual pokemon which can counter everything is simply not possible. And I'm sure you know that. I hope you're messing around.

Anyway I don't mean to be harsh but posting your team here is a complete waste of time. It's fine as it is. The chances of someone finding a way to improve a team that they don't even know of a fairly good battler is extremely low. I'm guessing you just need reassurance. It's great as it is. You have thought about the evs, the counters, the abuse it does vs recovery and you have a balanced team. What more is there? You can over analyse a team to death but you're not gonna get too far with ways of improving it.

first paragraph is lol, and kinda not needed in the end of it. for the 2nd paragraph i decided to post for possible ideas to change, even pokemon completely which nobody has suggested. I do have an idea i might try after making this thread too.

Originally Posted by Fat Falkner12

looking back at this, how do you handle DDmence, or CBmence for that matter? Looks like it could pick apart this team after a DD.

mence cant come in vs zam/gar/kou at all. Its hard to come in vs metagross/lax, so only dugtrio is a safe switchin. At that point i have to predict whether lax/gar/meta is the best choice. Also keep in mind meta is bulky for a reason, ddmence is one of the reasons.

Originally Posted by Fat ABC-Trainer

This team is apt to fail against a team that's even slightly defensive. No stability at all means you will get eaten up.

this teams needs very high level prediction and skill to beat those teams, fortunately i can usually do so.

Originally Posted by Fat KD24

I think he is refering to the fact that Skarm + Bliss + Clops + Pert would be almost an impossible unit for this team to break but then again, I like how he uses Zam to draw in Blissey so he can finish it with Dugtrio, and I also like lefties lax with fire blast for skarm. I do agree on HP Grass somewhere, perhaps even on raikou? I would think of it this way, you have 2 pretty good special attackers with ice punch, and one of them should be alive when blissey is dead thanks to dugtrio. So hp ice on raikou seems like it would be good for mence (but tbolt does a shitload anyway), breloom (not too worried about this, it cant switch into anything at all and raikou can block spore / leech seed anyway meaning all it can do is probably focus punch which you block by just attacking), and a few other pokemon like bulky grounds. But HP grass provides the same coverage on bulky grounds, mence and loom are already covered, but swampert isnt. Since swampert is a pretty common switch in to raikou it gives you the perfect chance to cm again. Usually they will switch out to scout for hp grass first meaning when you see a pert, you should cm (if you have the sub, attack if you dont). that basically means you could get 2 free calm minds and then a dead swampert. sweet deal if you ask me.

I like the heavy offense and suicide approach to the team.

thankyou for understanding the team and helping back it up. You are just about dead on with everything you said, i appreciate it. I generally prefer HP ice to beat celebis/flygons. Flygons are annoying since they can run from anything they dont like, and cm celebis are a bitch, and hp ice raikou will still beat it any day.

Originally Posted by Fat ABC-Trainer

An offense based team, even one that implements explosion as its prime tactic does not and should not sacrifice all of its defense for offensive capability. Reflect on Metagross is about the only thing the team has for support and the move does not have a big enough impact on the other pokemons survivability to justify the teams weakness, especially if a swampert or another such pokemon is on the opposing team preventing Metagross from getting into play effectively. More EVs should be put into defense for all pokes even the weakest ones - in this case a little defense will go much farther than a lot of attack.

In terms of moves, I would suggest the following. Place Giga Drain onto Gengar in the place of the move of your choice (I would suggest Will-O-Wisp). Take the bulk of Snorlax's attack evs and put them into defense and a little into special defense and replace Return with Rest as Selfdestruct is going to be an autoko on most pokemon (bulkier ones that survive will be killed by other pokemons offensive movesets). The stab move is unnecessary in this case as Snorlax is trying to tank instead of sweep. Change Metagross's nature to +Defense or swap the evs around putting in a lot more defense (whichever is statistically most beneficial) as it is your only answer to a strong normal/flying type STAB attacker. I would not suggest changing Alakazam or Dugtrio as they are obviously not built to be defensive in the slightest and they play together nicely as well as fitting the role of sweeper the best. Your Raikou looks decent to me although there's something about it that bothers me but I can't place my finger on it.

the point of this team is to win before they really understand your team, never give them a free turn. Rest on snorlax really defeets the purpose of that. Meta has to hit hard with his attacks in order to eliminate quite a few threats.

I did some thinking and came to the conclusion that giga drain/hp grass is needed somewhere, and i thought of a possibitlity that nobody here thought of =/. Giga Drain over tbolt on gar. Tbolt is really only for the waters/gyara/skarm. Skarm is obviously gunna run, and doesnt threaten the raikou sweep at all. Giga drain will still do some damage vs waters, but i do realize its quite a bit less damage. Fortunately raikou owns just about all of those waters it cant ko easily. Ice punch really is necessary for flygon/mence/celebi, and wisp is actually the move i use the most with gar, it helps soooooo much, i cant afford to replace it. I can just wisp threats like metagross that i cant really hurt, then go to my own meta and scare them away. What do you all think of this idea?

[ABC-Trainer]

My suggestions were to help you from getting shit all over when everything doesn't go exactly to plan like this requires. Defense never hurts and in this type of team it becomes really effective. Anyone can go out and stick 6 attackers on a team with decent type coverage and say the team relies on prediction but for the most part you will get eaten alive when facing a decent opponent. A little more stamina will provide for the extra push you need - you will last a little longer and be able to keep up the assault until their walls crumble.

[Heysup]

With all due respect ABC-Trainer, i beleive you missed the point of the team.

If you see a zam, what do you do? Switch in special wall, or scout moveset if thats an option, but usually switch in special wall, once the wall/cm counter drops then its all out Blowing everything up, and burning/weakening what he cant, and then Raikou can clean up the trash.

Defense in fact, DOES hurt this team. The walls are psuedo walls, they block something temporarily, then blow up. This team isnt based on prediction, its based on the strategy of eliminating all of a pokemons counters, then sweeping with it. A little more "stamina" will make these pokemon not do their job properly, and the longer the battle, the worse for this team.

Hey Oh, i think that its a great idea to put Giga drain or HP grass over tbolt, since you have Tbolt coverage already. And people assume Gengar has tbolt, so gyarados wont switch in. And if it does, you can just burn its ass and make it useless.

[ABC-Trainer]

You are completely wrong.

You don't have to tell me the point of the team. It's blatantly obvious in the first post and after critiquing it I understand what it is meant to do.

Offensive teams are based on prediction more than any other type of team, so your comment "it doesn't rely on prediction" is not only blatantly incorrect but possibly the stupidest thing you could have said. It's obvious the team is meant to eliminate other pokemon as fast as possible and built on "pseudo walls" by which I suppose you mean flimsy type coverage. Here's my problem with this.

Type coverage does NOT work unless you can take a hit in the first place! The team's chance of winning is dramatically reduced if one pokemon is killed suddenly. I'm not suggesting that he try to make it a stall team as you seem to be insinuating. Mixing stuff around never hurts. I suggested Rest on Snorlax because he will be absorbing the crux of the special attacks. He isn't going to be hurting stuff in the first place. A rest-selfdestruct combination is relatively unexpected and not a bad combination.

If you understood the game a little better maybe you'd see that my criticisms aren't unfounded. I didn't rate this team just because and believing otherwise demonstrates less than sound thinking.

[kd24]

Giga Drain over tbolt on gar.

this is actually a very good idea and for now it seems like the best choice. I completely forgot about celebi while scanning over why i would use hp grass over ice, i have seen a rise in perish song celebi as of late for whichever reason and have seen a few sd / baton pass / recover / shadow ball sets as well. good luck with giga drain gengar, hopefully it can take on swampert :D

actually, i was thinking about the team and im wondering about making your gengar a bit more bulky. I am fairly certain giga drain wont ohko swampert so we could go for much bulkier as will-o-wisp will help weaken pokemon. What i am thinking is a bit more hp over attack and possibly running a timid nature to help boost your chances for survival. Now you dont need to take this advice as i dont know how the naive explosion over timid explosion has helped you in the past but it seems like blissey should be dead at this point and explosion should be ohkoing pretty much all that it is supposed to, timid nature or not. when i say a bit more im talking about 120 hp perhaps, although going to 84 would be fine as well.

[Heysup]

I dont feel the need to reply to ABC's post, as he is suggesting rest on a boomlax. Enough said there.

And for gengar, i dont think thats a good idea, the idea of boomgar is to play to its immunities, burn shit, maybe kill something if its weak to grass/ice, then blow up the not dead special wall, or something else that needs to be dealt with.

[ABC-Trainer]

Yeah and he might as well max attack and speed evs on every pokemon. While he's at it he can just throw a choice band on everything.

[Heysup]

Originally Posted by Fat ABC-Trainer

Yeah and he might as well max attack and speed evs on every pokemon. While he's at it he can just throw a choice band on everything.

Well if he did that, that would make your remark about his team relying on prediction actually true :).

[MorseCoder]

You need to have a Water/Water walling Type, At LEAST, Lapras or Vaporeon Could work, You could have Problems With a Wisely Handled Sucune here..

[Heysup]

Did you even read the team? He has CM raikou and snorlax.

[ABC-Trainer]

Originally Posted by Fat HeYsUp

Well if he did that, that would make your remark about his team relying on prediction actually true :).

I was being sarcastic because of your retarded inclination towards this team being unnecessarily offensive.

His team does rely on prediction more so than another team. I don't know where you're going saying that it doesn't but you must not know a lot about the metagame to make such a remarkably stupid statement.

[Hey Oh]

Originally Posted by Fat MorseCoder

You need to have a Water/Water walling Type, At LEAST, Lapras or Vaporeon Could work, You could have Problems With a Wisely Handled Sucune here..

3 exploders and raikou should be able to stop cune dead in its tracks. Meta is EVd to be faster then the avg suicune as well.

Originally Posted by Fat KD24

this is actually a very good idea and for now it seems like the best choice. I completely forgot about celebi while scanning over why i would use hp grass over ice, i have seen a rise in perish song celebi as of late for whichever reason and have seen a few sd / baton pass / recover / shadow ball sets as well. good luck with giga drain gengar, hopefully it can take on swampert :D

actually, i was thinking about the team and im wondering about making your gengar a bit more bulky. I am fairly certain giga drain wont ohko swampert so we could go for much bulkier as will-o-wisp will help weaken pokemon. What i am thinking is a bit more hp over attack and possibly running a timid nature to help boost your chances for survival. Now you dont need to take this advice as i dont know how the naive explosion over timid explosion has helped you in the past but it seems like blissey should be dead at this point and explosion should be ohkoing pretty much all that it is supposed to, timid nature or not. when i say a bit more im talking about 120 hp perhaps, although going to 84 would be fine as well.

i'll let you know how giga drain gar works as soon as i get back on nb to try it, should be the next few days. The reason i didnt go bulky gar, which i actually did consider was because of the damage explosion does on blissey/other pokes. 200 atk is a great number to work with, and does great damage to blissey. I might try out bulkygar, but i think i like its speedmark/attacks too much to change the evs all that much.

[Iggeh]

Do not underestimate the element of surprise. If he goes against a defensive team, he pretty much knows the opponent's team. However, its doubtful that the opponent has the same knowledge of an offesnive team.

[Hey Oh]

finally getting a chance to test out giga drain gar

its working very well. Im noticing everybody always thinks i have thunderbolt, so the pokes that fear it (gyara/skarm etc) usually run. They'll never know for sure if i have it or not because my last move is explosion, so they'll never know that move unless i use it to die. If i fight something that doesnt beleive i have ice beam i can explode and generally kill them.

Im finding perts WAY easier to deal with, and really like the change of giga drain over thunderbolt.


and good post iggeh, very true

[Heysup]

This is coming from someone who only uses offensive teams, i couldn't agree more with iggehs post either. Teams that arent exactly standard, make you pay for assuming its standard. As soon as they make one mistake, they are at a pretty big disadvantage, as well as the battler likely not knowing how to deal with the team.