Guys I think we should redo Kitsunoh...

**Elevator Music** · Mar 14th, 2009, 11:28:03 PM

I hate it. It's absolutely awful and it didn't fulfill it's concept at all. I was talking to Magmortified about this on the server and we both agreed that it's a fine (or maybe just average) pokemon, but because the concept SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT was drilled into everyone's head it came out kinda... meh. I say we need to delete it, pretend it never happened, and ban Magmortified for failing so hard!

...Ok guys I'm kidding. Well, I do hate Kitsunoh and think it sucks (but I was just trying to trick anybody who held the cursor over the topic title. ^__^ Forgive me. Really this is an RMT of the team that helps me dominate the ladder atm. I'm getting tired of it and its effectiveness is wearing off a bit so time to shed it. This team was originally made for a mono region team thing, but it worked so well on the ladder that I just climbed up and up and up with it. Not bragging, but most of my losses really do just come from hax. =P

TEAM SINNOH STALL:

Roserade @ Focus Sash
Natural Cure : Timid
4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk
- Toxic Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Toxic Spikes were necessary and nothing does it better than Roserade. still a pretty good lead somehow if I can predict right (and I can). Not much else to say. Being my only pokemon with Grass type attacks is a bummer, and I hate losing to Cune/CursePert once I've killed this off too early, so I try and keep it around until I know I don't need to.

Rotom-h @ Leftovers
Levitate : Bold
252 HP / 80 Def / 12 Spd / 164 SpDef
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Reflect
- Shadow Ball

"lol Rapid Spin". My personal EVs, makes me survive 2 LO Surfs from Starmie (or 1 Hydro Pump), as well as being a good Gyarados counter. Reflect for team support in general, I liked it more than Will-o-wisp because the less non 100% accuracy moves I have the better -__-. My only good answer to Gyara (though LO versions get worn down and I can always Toxic Lefovers versions and stall with Cress). Also my only real answer to SD Scizor.

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Sand Stream : Impish
240 HP / 36 Atk / 232 Def
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Slack Off

...As if I could make a mono region stall team for Sinnoh without Hippowdon. Phazer #1, and sets down SR. Counters a lot of physical pokemon, most importantly non-Aqua Tail Tyranitar, but it is also my best Kitsunoh counter.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Sticky Hold : Calm
216 HP / 92 Def / 200 SpDef
- Recover
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Gastrodon is the only usable Bulky Water in Sinnoh, and when I found that out I was bitterly disappointed. However, when playtesting came around, I found he performs fantastically, being nice anti-Trick (which most stall teams hate), as well as sheilding me from several annoying threats in Heatran, Gengar (it is EV'd so that it isn't 2HKOed by LO Shadow Ball or 3HKOed without LO), most Zapdos, and most Special based pokemon in general. I'm actually pretty sure it's the best pokemon against Specs Lati@s unless they run Grass Knot for some reason. I don't like not having Surf but I can only recall one or two instances where it is really missed, and all the other attacks are more important for me anyhow.

Gastro is also my first switch into Kitsunoh if I don't want SS up for some reason (mainly if Rade still has Sash intact and I don't want to waste it). It is decent but Bold would obviously be better for this.

PS: The blue version is ugly! Pink is what real men use!

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Levitate: Bold
252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpDef
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam

...As if I could make a mono region stall team for Sinn...oh wait I already did that. Takes status and helps me beat Infernape (who would otherwise fuck me) and Salamence/dragons (who would almost otherwise fuck me). I don't like having 2 CBTar weak pokemon but eh. I need them.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Flash Fire : Quiet
252 HP / 16 SpAtk / 240 SpDef
- Will-o-wisp
- Overheat
- Roar
- Explosion

Lol, but it works. I originally had Lucario here to clean up and revenge-kill threats I couldn't handle, but Heatran works better in other ways. Roar is needed to phaze things that Hippowdon can't (except Mr. Mime ?_?). Also it's a nice element of surprise against stupid DS teams. Will-o-wisp is kinda filler but it works better than Toxic and helps me bone pokemon like Mence/Gyara/Tar that actually think they can switch in. Overheat is its most powerful move and I usually don't stay in for more than 1-2 turns to attack anyways.

The SpDef helps for further insurance against Gengar. For those that doubt it's bulk, Heatran takes ~75 from a +2 Togekiss using Aura Sphere. And it takes ~45 from a Suicune Surf. I had Earth Power over Explosion, but Explosion proved to be so much more useful for taking out pokemon like a CMCune, because they really threaten to kill me.

Boom. Heatran. Synergetic glue for any team.

---

I'm too lazy to separate the back pics but imo it looks cooler this way.

I know more or less what I'm weak to so instead of focusing on that, please help me try and actually fix the weaknesses (good rates should do that anyways but I feel like that's necessary to say). I'd prefer to only use Sinnoh pokemon but I really don't mind having to use other teams since team effectiveness > gimmickness. Always. *Though trying to have both is nice! =O)

cyberzero · Mar 14th, 2009, 11:32:11 PM

This is a great team, I've seen it used a million times, but I have a problem with your Gastrodon. It's meant to stay in and tank, but the best set is the Stockpile set for such a purpose. I recommend that you change that Gastrodon to the following:

Gastrodon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP/128 Def/128 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stockpile
- Toxic
- Surf
- Recover

Longer staying power, isn't overshadowed by Swampert, and can really stop some sweeps. The stockpile boosts are invaluable with Surf and Toxic's coverage, Recover and the large HP stat that Gastrodon has. With boosts to his less desirable defenses, it can really be a beastly tank.

ferron · Mar 15th, 2009, 12:49:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

I'm sorry when did a team need to have a CAP pokemon in it for it to be made for the CAP metagame?

The team was slightly modified so it would work better in the Kitsunoh metagame. Why shouldn't I post it here?

the problem isn't that it doesn't have a CaP in it, its that i don't understand what we gain from having this in its own thread.
i can freely admit that you are a more prominent member than i am and have a better record than i do due to your greater knowledge of the metagame, but merely posting a thread about a team that works is not a metagame analysis. in this, we are not discussing what makes the team work in the current metagame or how this team can influence the metagame. combine that with the fact that this is only relevent to the 2 week period of testing, then i fail to see why this needed to be made.
i understand you designed a great team, and i know you will continue to design more of them in the future, but i can not for the life of me understand why you decided to make this thread as opposed to a kitsunoh metagame thread where this team and others would have had the possibility for better discussion.

**Elevator Music** · Mar 15th, 2009, 12:57:43 PM

I thought we were supposed to make separate topics for RMTs ?_?

I think that's the way it's always been, though maybe there was a rule change I missed...

darkie · Mar 15th, 2009, 12:58:57 PM

I approved it.

ferron · Mar 15th, 2009, 1:28:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

I thought we were supposed to make separate topics for RMTs ?_?

I think that's the way it's always been, though maybe there was a rule change I missed...

no there wasn't a change in rules, it was me wondering about the relevance of the team outside the two weeks.
.....
anyways, you asked for some help so i'll do what i can.
i can see lead azelfs (particularly the sashed and scarfed variants) causing possible problems with your set up. unfortunately (as you said before) when it comes to toxic spikes, there are none that do it better than roserade.
also, if roserade gets taken out, then i forsee swampert being difficult to handle for this team.
both cres and gastro already can deal with dragons and (to a less extend) infernape, so you might want to switch one of them out to deal with those other problems that may arise.

other than that, it looks good.

MapleSandwich · Mar 15th, 2009, 11:26:29 PM

YES, finally someone agrees with me, we need to scrap this right away and...
Oh, it was a joke >_>

Anyways, I'm not sure why you're so afraid of Gengar, with Kitsunoh running around I wouldn't expect to see that thing on the CAP ladder for quite a while. Celebi and Tyranitar might cause your team a problem, if used properly, but for a mono-Sinnoh stall team I don't see many improvements you can really make. *coughRegigigascough*

Scoopapa · Mar 16th, 2009, 1:54:39 AM

To address your opening statements, I think Kitsunoh is great. It is definately useful, but not overpowering. Frisk is great, and so far it has caused plenty of switches.

A lot of people are complaining that it isn't scouting enough, but honestly nobody seems to say what exactly they want it to do. Is it supposed to switch in, cause three switches, reveal ten moveslots, and force the opponent to PM you their overall team strategy? The concept statement of this CAP was:

A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

Does this not apply to Kitsunoh? It can use Frisk, U-turn, Sub/Protect, Fake Out, Roar, and high speed to find out what you opponent is doing, what they are holding, and what their pokemon are. It may not effortlessly waltz in and type up a Powerpoint presentation on your opponent's team, complete with bullets, graphs, and silly sound clips, but neither do Flygon, Scizor, or anything else that was mentioned early on in the process for purpose of comparison.

I think some of you think you know what you want from Kitsunoh, but your expectations just aren't that realistic.

Veedrock · Mar 16th, 2009, 2:10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Scoopapa

To address your opening statements, I think Kitsunoh is great. It is definately useful, but not overpowering. Frisk is great, and so far it has caused plenty of switches.

A lot of people are complaining that it isn't scouting enough, but honestly nobody seems to say what exactly they want it to do. Is it supposed to switch in, cause three switches, reveal ten moveslots, and force the opponent to PM you their overall team strategy? The concept statement of this CAP was:

A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

Does this not apply to Kitsunoh? It can use Frisk, U-turn, Sub/Protect, Fake Out, Roar, and high speed to find out what you opponent is doing, what they are holding, and what their pokemon are.

I think some of you think you know what you want from Kitsunoh, but your expectations just aren't that realistic.

Out of everything you listed, there's nothing Kitsunoh does that something else cannot. I read "OMFG it scouts!" I respond "so does Heatran."

Also; Fake Out doesn't do any scouting. The flinch, what the hell does that reveal? I have no freaking idea why you put that there.

Jolteon has everything else you mentioned though (Baton Pass in U-turn's place), and a higher speed. Jolteon for Ultimate Scout!

One of your lines really gets to me: "what their pokemon are." I'm only going to say this one more time; they switch in their counter. You cannot honestly expect your opponent to see Kitsunoh and roll a die to know what to bring in. Also, the result isn't going to change by god. First time you come in, Heatran comes to greet you. Second time around, are you seriously expecting something different? It's going to be Heatran again. "Blah blah blah prediction blah blah." I hate the "forcing switches" argument, because every fother mucking pokemon does it. Oh man, I lowered Heatran's defenses with ShadowStrike, it's going to switch. Hell no; it's going to fry your ass.

I apologize EM. I could not help myself.

darkie · Mar 16th, 2009, 2:25:14 AM

This is an RMT, not a Kitsunoh discussion. Keep it on topic.

Mar 15th, 2009, 12:57:43 PM	#4
Elevator Music strong pkmn, weak pkmn... Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,673	I thought we were supposed to make separate topics for RMTs ?_? I think that's the way it's always been, though maybe there was a rule change I missed... __________________

Mar 15th, 2009, 12:58:57 PM	#5
darkie coolcoolcool Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,362 Plano, TX	I approved it. __________________

Mar 16th, 2009, 1:54:39 AM	#8
Scoopapa Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 923	To address your opening statements, I think Kitsunoh is great. It is definately useful, but not overpowering. Frisk is great, and so far it has caused plenty of switches. A lot of people are complaining that it isn't scouting enough, but honestly nobody seems to say what exactly they want it to do. Is it supposed to switch in, cause three switches, reveal ten moveslots, and force the opponent to PM you their overall team strategy? The concept statement of this CAP was: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques. Does this not apply to Kitsunoh? It can use Frisk, U-turn, Sub/Protect, Fake Out, Roar, and high speed to find out what you opponent is doing, what they are holding, and what their pokemon are. It may not effortlessly waltz in and type up a Powerpoint presentation on your opponent's team, complete with bullets, graphs, and silly sound clips, but neither do Flygon, Scizor, or anything else that was mentioned early on in the process for purpose of comparison. I think some of you think you know what you want from Kitsunoh, but your expectations just aren't that realistic. __________________ List of Topic Leader Posts from early CAP4 discussion threads Read these if you haven't yet and are working on CAP4

Mar 16th, 2009, 2:25:14 AM	#10
darkie coolcoolcool Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,362 Plano, TX	This is an RMT, not a Kitsunoh discussion. Keep it on topic. __________________

Mar 14th, 2009, 11:28:03 PM	#1
Elevator Music strong pkmn, weak pkmn... Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,673	Guys I think we should redo Kitsunoh... I hate it. It's absolutely awful and it didn't fulfill it's concept at all. I was talking to Magmortified about this on the server and we both agreed that it's a fine (or maybe just average) pokemon, but because the concept SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT was drilled into everyone's head it came out kinda... meh. I say we need to delete it, pretend it never happened, and ban Magmortified for failing so hard! ...Ok guys I'm kidding. Well, I do hate Kitsunoh and think it sucks (but I was just trying to trick anybody who held the cursor over the topic title. ^__^ Forgive me. Really this is an RMT of the team that helps me dominate the ladder atm. I'm getting tired of it and its effectiveness is wearing off a bit so time to shed it. This team was originally made for a mono region team thing, but it worked so well on the ladder that I just climbed up and up and up with it. Not bragging, but most of my losses really do just come from hax. =P TEAM SINNOH STALL: Roserade @ Focus Sash Natural Cure : Timid 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SpAtk - Toxic Spikes - Sleep Powder - Leaf Storm - Hidden Power [Fire] Toxic Spikes were necessary and nothing does it better than Roserade. still a pretty good lead somehow if I can predict right (and I can). Not much else to say. Being my only pokemon with Grass type attacks is a bummer, and I hate losing to Cune/CursePert once I've killed this off too early, so I try and keep it around until I know I don't need to. Rotom-h @ Leftovers Levitate : Bold 252 HP / 80 Def / 12 Spd / 164 SpDef - Thunderbolt - Overheat - Reflect - Shadow Ball "lol Rapid Spin". My personal EVs, makes me survive 2 LO Surfs from Starmie (or 1 Hydro Pump), as well as being a good Gyarados counter. Reflect for team support in general, I liked it more than Will-o-wisp because the less non 100% accuracy moves I have the better -__-. My only good answer to Gyara (though LO versions get worn down and I can always Toxic Lefovers versions and stall with Cress). Also my only real answer to SD Scizor. Hippowdon @ Leftovers Sand Stream : Impish 240 HP / 36 Atk / 232 Def - Earthquake - Stealth Rock - Roar - Slack Off ...As if I could make a mono region stall team for Sinnoh without Hippowdon. Phazer #1, and sets down SR. Counters a lot of physical pokemon, most importantly non-Aqua Tail Tyranitar, but it is also my best Kitsunoh counter. Gastrodon @ Leftovers Sticky Hold : Calm 216 HP / 92 Def / 200 SpDef - Recover - Toxic - Ice Beam - Earth Power Gastrodon is the only usable Bulky Water in Sinnoh, and when I found that out I was bitterly disappointed. However, when playtesting came around, I found he performs fantastically, being nice anti-Trick (which most stall teams hate), as well as sheilding me from several annoying threats in Heatran, Gengar (it is EV'd so that it isn't 2HKOed by LO Shadow Ball or 3HKOed without LO), most Zapdos, and most Special based pokemon in general. I'm actually pretty sure it's the best pokemon against Specs Lati@s unless they run Grass Knot for some reason. I don't like not having Surf but I can only recall one or two instances where it is really missed, and all the other attacks are more important for me anyhow. Gastro is also my first switch into Kitsunoh if I don't want SS up for some reason (mainly if Rade still has Sash intact and I don't want to waste it). It is decent but Bold would obviously be better for this. PS: The blue version is ugly! Pink is what real men use! Cresselia @ Leftovers Levitate: Bold 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpDef - Rest - Sleep Talk - Psychic - Ice Beam ...As if I could make a mono region stall team for Sinn...oh wait I already did that. Takes status and helps me beat Infernape (who would otherwise fuck me) and Salamence/dragons (who would almost otherwise fuck me). I don't like having 2 CBTar weak pokemon but eh. I need them. Heatran @ Leftovers Flash Fire : Quiet 252 HP / 16 SpAtk / 240 SpDef - Will-o-wisp - Overheat - Roar - Explosion Lol, but it works. I originally had Lucario here to clean up and revenge-kill threats I couldn't handle, but Heatran works better in other ways. Roar is needed to phaze things that Hippowdon can't (except Mr. Mime ?_?). Also it's a nice element of surprise against stupid DS teams. Will-o-wisp is kinda filler but it works better than Toxic and helps me bone pokemon like Mence/Gyara/Tar that actually think they can switch in. Overheat is its most powerful move and I usually don't stay in for more than 1-2 turns to attack anyways. The SpDef helps for further insurance against Gengar. For those that doubt it's bulk, Heatran takes ~75 from a +2 Togekiss using Aura Sphere. And it takes ~45 from a Suicune Surf. I had Earth Power over Explosion, but Explosion proved to be so much more useful for taking out pokemon like a CMCune, because they really threaten to kill me. Boom. Heatran. Synergetic glue for any team. --- I'm too lazy to separate the back pics but imo it looks cooler this way. I know more or less what I'm weak to so instead of focusing on that, please help me try and actually fix the weaknesses (good rates should do that anyways but I feel like that's necessary to say). I'd prefer to only use Sinnoh pokemon but I really don't mind having to use other teams since team effectiveness > gimmickness. Always. Though trying to have both is nice! =O) __________________ Last edited by Elevator Music; Mar 14th, 2009 at 11:30:54 PM.*