RNG Manipulation in FireRed/LeafGreen: Wild Pokémon Supported in RNG Reporter 9.93 - Page 3

yayece · Nov 20th, 2009, 9:12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat chrish

I am interested to know how to tell the difference between issue #1 and issue #2 cartridges.

The original version (known as "1.0" and what you're calling "issue #1") came with the wireless dongle. The re-release, (known as "1.1" and what you're calling "issue #2") did *not* come with the wireless dongle.

Alternatively, according to Bulbapedia:

Quote:

The species names present in FireRed and LeafGreen are cut off in early English releases of the games, most specifically those species names made up of more than one word with a space in between. This causes Pokémon like Pidgey to be listed as "Tiny Pokémon" rather than "Tiny Bird Pokémon." Internal game data lists the species name the same as it appears in Pokémon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald and other games, indicating a glitch in the Pokédex where a blank space is confused for the terminating byte for the name. This was addressed in later releases of the game. This is the easiest way to tell whether the game in question is a v1.0 or v1.1 release.

**NixHex** · Nov 21st, 2009, 2:00:17 PM

Thank you yayece, that was very helpful. The cartridges are pretty much identical. I was hoping that 1.0 would have the "official nintendo seal of quality" and 1.1 would have "official nintendo seal" (as indicated by maddox, of all people), but both of have "official nintendo seal." You can check the album in my profile that shows the two cartridges side by side.

**NixHex** · Nov 21st, 2009, 2:02:33 PM

Oh yeah, this probably makes no difference, but if there was a glitch in the species naming style, that may indicate that they not only changed the glitch but also the programming of the RNG? A huge stretch and probably irrelevant, but just an idea.

megamonk4 · Nov 22nd, 2009, 12:52:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

Oh yeah, this probably makes no difference, but if there was a glitch in the species naming style, that may indicate that they not only changed the glitch but also the programming of the RNG? A huge stretch and probably irrelevant, but just an idea.

which is unfortanute, cause we won't know really until we can manipulate the RNG to hit the same seed on the 2 different types...

I have a question....
For wild pokemon, how do you determine if it's Method 1, 2 or 4? I'm just curious.

**NixHex** · Nov 22nd, 2009, 5:23:40 AM

More questions for chrish or whoever may have an answer to this.

I've noticed some other possible variables in the intro sequence.
1. Did you keep the timing of the button press at the game freak star animation constant throughout your experiment?

2. Also, I was thinking that the journal that pops up after the continue screen may affect the rng, as it does in the 4th gen games.

How did you approach these two parts when carrying out your tests? I've done about 24 spreads and have not matched a single one of yours or mine. I'll keep chugging.

pikachu25 · Nov 22nd, 2009, 4:57:09 PM

I am currently SRing for a Mewtwo on an actual LG cartridge, so I can use the FRLG Seed Finder application and see if I duplicate seeds or not. Would this be of any help?

**NixHex** · Nov 22nd, 2009, 8:56:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat pikachu25

I am currently SRing for a Mewtwo on an actual LG cartridge, so I can use the FRLG Seed Finder application and see if I duplicate seeds or not. Would this be of any help?

I currently have calculated pid's for 24 spreads for mewtwo also on a real lg cart. I'll post mine later tonight and we can compare our findings to eachother's and to chrish's expansive list. Again, how do we use the frlg seedfinder in conjunction with pid's? if I remember correctly the pid is found by two successive rng calls but can a seed be found from simply knowing two calls?

pikachu25 · Nov 22nd, 2009, 9:07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

I currently have calculated pid's for 24 spreads for mewtwo also on a real lg cart. I'll post mine later tonight and we can compare our findings to eachother's and to chrish's expansive list. Again, how do we use the frlg seedfinder in conjunction with pid's? if I remember correctly the pid is found by two successive rng calls but can a seed be found from simply knowing two calls?

I don't know the answer to the first question, but yes, we can guess the starting seed from the two calls, because starting seeds are two bytes long, and there aren't many two byte seeds :). I'm having troubles though, because the times the app gives me don't match what I really did :(.

Negator · Nov 23rd, 2009, 7:17:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat megamonk4

I have a question....
For wild pokemon, how do you determine if it's Method 1, 2 or 4? I'm just curious.

mmm what do you mean?

Usually wild pkm in FR/LG are generated with Method1, but other methods are possible to show up.
To know what method a pkm is, you need to level it up 'till you can know its ivs, then useing RNG reporter, imput said Ivs into "Ivs To Pid" windows, reporting what kind of pid your pkm have.
Otherwise you can palpark it, trade/sending it to someone who has a flashcart and check it with pokesav.

chrish · Nov 24th, 2009, 9:56:23 AM

1. Yes, we did keep the time constant on the title screen.
2. We used a set interval of 80 seconds for the journal of past activities to ensure that it completed before pressing A to initiate the battle.
3. Our original post (page 2 of this blog I think) had the exact timing of what we did. All our intervals were constant. We are now working (when we get the time) on reducing the scope of the problem.

One reason I can think of that you might not be hitting any of our spreads is that each game cartridge seems to vary slightly in its timekeeping. As an example, we have been RNG abusing Emerald to get almost perfect Timid Latis and the elapsed time to hit the spread is over 3 1/2 hours. We are using a stopwatch that is guaranteed to be accurate to within 1 microsecond for a 10 hour period. What we have found is that once we callibrated the stopwatch, we were always within the margin of error (+- .1 seconds) of hitting our spread. However, when we tried for the same exact spread on a different Emerald cartridge, there was a difference of about 1/2 - 3/4 of a second for the same spread. This may be what is happening with the FR/LG games - just a thought; even 1/60th of a second would be enough to throw things off.

**NixHex** · Nov 24th, 2009, 5:36:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat chrish

1. Yes, we did keep the time constant on the title screen.
2. We used a set interval of 80 seconds for the journal of past activities to ensure that it completed before pressing A to initiate the battle.
3. Our original post (page 2 of this blog I think) had the exact timing of what we did. All our intervals were constant. We are now working (when we get the time) on reducing the scope of the problem.

One reason I can think of that you might not be hitting any of our spreads is that each game cartridge seems to vary slightly in its timekeeping.

I see what I've done wrong. I usually just click through the intro and wait until 70 to finally hit start on the "press start" screen, and I press B to exit the journal. I will try tonight to hit some spreads now that I know your exact method. Also, for anyone else trying this, I found a good online metronome here. Just change the tempo to 120 beats per minute (that's 2 beats per second), 10 beats per cycle, select beat 10 to flash, and deselect beat 1. Start the metronome and when it reaches beat 10, instantly switch on the GBA, then count the beats from there following Chrish's timing.

pikachu25 · Nov 29th, 2009, 4:49:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat chrish

One reason I can think of that you might not be hitting any of our spreads is that each game cartridge seems to vary slightly in its timekeeping. As an example, we have been RNG abusing Emerald to get almost perfect Timid Latis and the elapsed time to hit the spread is over 3 1/2 hours. We are using a stopwatch that is guaranteed to be accurate to within 1 microsecond for a 10 hour period. What we have found is that once we callibrated the stopwatch, we were always within the margin of error (+- .1 seconds) of hitting our spread. However, when we tried for the same exact spread on a different Emerald cartridge, there was a difference of about 1/2 - 3/4 of a second for the same spread. This may be what is happening with the FR/LG games - just a thought; even 1/60th of a second would be enough to throw things off.

I am trying to RNG a Mewtwo on my Leafgreen cart right now (no emulator or anything-pure cart) by starting a timer when I hit a on the continue screen, catching a pokemon to find my starting seed, finding a spread in RNG Reporter within a reasonable amount of time, and trying to hit is using my timer. However, both times I have tried this, I have gotten results that can be explained by my game going 72.6 frames/second as opposed to the 60 fps originally suspected. Has anyone else had something like this happen?

megamonk4 · Nov 29th, 2009, 10:48:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat pikachu25

I am trying to RNG a Mewtwo on my Leafgreen cart right now (no emulator or anything-pure cart) by starting a timer when I hit a on the continue screen, catching a pokemon to find my starting seed, finding a spread in RNG Reporter within a reasonable amount of time, and trying to hit is using my timer. However, both times I have tried this, I have gotten results that can be explained by my game going 72.6 frames/second as opposed to the 60 fps originally suspected. Has anyone else had something like this happen?

I haven't been able to help contribute yet to this to know for sure. But it may be that the area Mewtwo is located, that it's a "noisy area". That the area is skipping frames instead of going by 1.

Arseus · Dec 1st, 2009, 7:10:01 PM

I would again like to apologize that I have not posted in this thread as of late, but it seems as though you are all doing very well without me (not that there would have been any reason to suspect otherwise). My academic situation persists, and as such, I will again be absent during December, and pretty much in the foreseeable future. Starting the winter holidays (December 19 or so), I may be able to drop in on weekends, but I encourage you all to continue to collaborate amongst yourselves to further our understanding of the RNG.

chrish, I had a feeling that game time made no difference, but I believe you have confirmed it. I am sorry I do not have time to comment on other aspects of your research, but I believe that I should say little more than the following: "You seem to know what you are doing. Keep up the good work." To the rest of you, thank you all for showing interest in this topic, and for helping each other out as the need arises. I hope I will have the time to work more directly with you soon.

Jetcars4tots · Dec 22nd, 2009, 5:22:18 PM

Is there a RNG manipulation in Firered and Leafgreen?

Arseus · Dec 22nd, 2009, 8:32:20 PM

RNG manipulation in FireRed and LeafGreen is, at the moment, more reactive than proactive. By this I mean, we cannot seek out a certain spread to hit, and alter our in-game approach (specifically, manipulate the seed) to hit this specific spread. However, as chrish has demonstrated, it is possible to hit the same spread multiple times through consistent timing, much like in Emerald. So it is possible to an extent, but the very purpose of this topic is to enhance our understanding of, and by extension, our ability to manipulate the RNG of FireRed and LeafGreen. I cannot promise that the FR/LG RNG will prove as malleable as Emerald's, as Diamond's, as Pearl's. What can readily be seen is that we are seeing the beginnings of RNG abuse, but we cannot dive in to actively reset for a 31/31/31/31/31/31 Timid Mewtwo. Hopefully this has answered your question.

Misdreavus · Dec 31st, 2009, 6:47:45 PM

I'm so glad to see people finally getting around to this. Kudos to Arseus and everyone else involved! I have a question: Since, unlike Emerald, you have different seeds, and I've been told that every Pokémon game uses the same basic RNG, is every single 4th gen spread available in this game? Also, is research actively being conducted on this, or has it been "put on hold?" Thanks so much!

Arseus · Dec 31st, 2009, 10:42:46 PM

Every mainstream Pokémon game (i.e. every handheld iteration) since Ruby/Sapphire uses the same RNG, with slight variations on how they seed, cycle through spreads, and so on. So yes, every fourth generation spread should be technically available within FireRed/LeafGreen (though I am not sure how method K works exactly, I believe it is just a restriction of method 1). However, we do not know just how exploitable the RNG is at this point; how actively we can control the seed. For instance, in Emerald, we cannot change the starting seed at all (which, incidentally, is what makes it so easy to manipulate). As a result, it is "technically" possible to obtain a 31/31/31/31/31/31 spread, but one would have to wait weeks (even months depending on the spread) for it to roll around, and hope that the spread would even be hit on that attempt!

We know that FireRed and LeafGreen do change their seed, and that the same seed can be reproduced through consistent timing (see chrish's research). However, we do not know exactly how to alter this seed to a specific result, as one enters a certain time in Diamond and Pearl. It may be that we are limited to a certain number of seeds, thus leaving only certain spreads within practical reach. If Emerald is left on for a year or so, all spreads will be cycled through; presumably FireRed/LeafGreen have more spreads easily obtainable because of a diverse seeding process. However, to answer your question, I believe that it would suffice to say that any spread in a fourth generation game is theoretically obtainable in FireRed/LeafGreen. More difficult, perhaps, to obtain, but theoretically obtainable.

As for your question on the state of this research. I cannot speak for any individual member in this thread, save myself, but I believe that the research is slow, but ongoing. We still do not know how the game seeds (any help is appreciated!), but if you look at the different posts in the thread, I think you will find that we have made progress from October, when it was thought that obtaining the same seed was impossible. However, on a personal level, I am far less involved in this research than I would like to be; it is due to my winter holidays that I am even posting right now. However, this is due to schoolwork eating up my time; as I posted earlier, I encourage everyone to continue posting their results.

I thank you, among others, for showing interest in this undertaking. An even bigger thanks to all those who have contributed research up to this point! This will be my last post on this subject for 2009, but I hope that this endeavour will stay alive into the new year.

mattj · Dec 31st, 2009, 11:35:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Arseus

(though I am not sure how method K works exactly, I believe it is just a restriction of method 1).

It's just like method J (a selection of method 1 spreads) just with a different selection.

I've got a bud of mine clearing out my Fire Red cart while I clear out my new Japanese Heart Gold cart so I can help out too/get a Mewtwo :P

Misdreavus · Dec 31st, 2009, 11:39:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Arseus

Every mainstream Pokémon game (i.e. every handheld iteration) since Ruby/Sapphire uses the same RNG, with slight variations on how they seed, cycle through spreads, and so on. So yes, every fourth generation spread should be technically available within FireRed/LeafGreen (though I am not sure how method K works exactly, I believe it is just a restriction of method 1). However, we do not know just how exploitable the RNG is at this point; how actively we can control the seed. For instance, in Emerald, we cannot change the starting seed at all (which, incidentally, is what makes it so easy to manipulate). As a result, it is "technically" possible to obtain a 31/31/31/31/31/31 spread, but one would have to wait weeks (even months depending on the spread) for it to roll around, and hope that the spread would even be hit on that attempt!

We know that FireRed and LeafGreen do change their seed, and that the same seed can be reproduced through consistent timing (see chrish's research). However, we do not know exactly how to alter this seed to a specific result, as one enters a certain time in Diamond and Pearl. It may be that we are limited to a certain number of seeds, thus leaving only certain spreads within practical reach. If Emerald is left on for a year or so, all spreads will be cycled through; presumably FireRed/LeafGreen have more spreads easily obtainable because of a diverse seeding process. However, to answer your question, I believe that it would suffice to say that any spread in a fourth generation game is theoretically obtainable in FireRed/LeafGreen. More difficult, perhaps, to obtain, but theoretically obtainable.

As for your question on the state of this research. I cannot speak for any individual member in this thread, save myself, but I believe that the research is slow, but ongoing. We still do not know how the game seeds (any help is appreciated!), but if you look at the different posts in the thread, I think you will find that we have made progress from October, when it was thought that obtaining the same seed was impossible. However, on a personal level, I am far less involved in this research than I would like to be; it is due to my winter holidays that I am even posting right now. However, this is due to schoolwork eating up my time; as I posted earlier, I encourage everyone to continue posting their results.

I thank you, among others, for showing interest in this undertaking. An even bigger thanks to all those who have contributed research up to this point! This will be my last post on this subject for 2009, but I hope that this endeavour will stay alive into the new year.

Thanks for the long reply! I've had lots of experience in RNG manipulation in both Emerald and 4th gen, and think it would really be great to crack FR/LG too. I've read through the whole thread and can definitely see that progress has been made, but that we still have a long ways to go. Keep up the great work!

Also, has anyone looked into the PID and/or IV generation of bred Pokémon in FR/LG?

Arseus · Jan 1st, 2010, 12:00:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat mattj

It's just like method J (a selection of method 1 spreads) just with a different selection.

I've got a bud of mine clearing out my Fire Red cart while I clear out my new Japanese Heart Gold cart so I can help out too/get a Mewtwo :P

Okay, I assumed as much, but I didn't want to state anything concrete in case I was ultimately mistaken. Thank you for the confirmation! Also, I know you have been doing RNG manipulation in anticipation of the VGC, so hopefully we can help you get a good Mewtwo before that rolls around (assuming the rules stay the same outside Japan).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Misdreavus

Thanks for the long reply! I've had lots of experience in RNG manipulation in both Emerald and 4th gen, and think it would really be great to crack FR/LG too. I've read through the whole thread and can definitely see that progress has been made, but that we still have a long ways to go. Keep up the great work!

Also, has anyone looked into the PID and/or IV generation of bred Pokémon in FR/LG?

Yes, I saw many of your posts in the Emerald thread back in the day; glad to see that you are interested in FR/LG research as well. Thank you for your words of encouragement—and yes, we still do have a ways to go!

Now, concerning the PID and IV generation of bred Pokémon, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has looked into this (or at the least, nobody has posted anything in this thread). This is understandable though, in my opinion: breeding in pre-Emerald games is a nightmare. We cannot control the offspring's nature, and there is no Flame Body/Magma Armor to speak of. As such, I can only assume that manipulating the RNG for bred Pokémon would be a similarly difficult undertaking; we must first get the ideal offspring (hoping that you do not need a specific fourth-generation ability, or else you would have to trade to Emerald, clone, and evolve in D/P/P/HG/SS—assuming we are not manipulating for this as well), then we must hit the correct seed and frame. Compare this to Emerald, where we only have to have the right parents, and hit a certain frame.

What we do know is that IV generation is different, insofar as the parents' IVs are concerned (see X-Act and Peterko's Breeding Guide). To the best of my knowledge, we do not even know how Emerald generates Egg PIDs (otherwise shiny bred Pokémon might be possible without trading), let alone FireRed/LeafGreen. I suppose that it is possible that some FR/LG spreads are more "flexible" than Emerald spreads, in that there is a greater range of flawless/Hidden Power spreads that are easily obtainable with different IVs from the parents. However, unless there are people with a keen interest in FR/LG breeding, I doubt this will be looked at soon; if anything, it should probably only be looked at once we know the specifics of seeding. I hope this has sufficiently answered your question.

Zowayix · Jan 1st, 2010, 3:18:06 PM

Posted a question in the Gen IV RNG thread, but didn't get a clear response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Arseus

It is "technically" possible to obtain a 31/31/31/31/31/31 spread, but one would have to wait weeks (even months depending on the spread) for it to roll around, and hope that the spread would even be hit on that attempt!

Would finding the current seed with an emulator, then using fast-forward to go forward several days/weeks, then using savestates to hit that frame work? (in all Gen III and Gen IV games)

I'm trying to RNG with an emulator, but I need to know which RAM addresses to look up. There was a youtube video on this, but it was taken down.

**NixHex** · Feb 28th, 2010, 11:23:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jetcars4tots

Is there a RNG manipulation in Firered and Leafgreen?

That's exactly what this thread is about. If you would like to help out it would be GREATLY appreciated! I noticed there hasn't been much work on this lately and any possible contributions to revive this cause would be awesome. Luckily a few people, as seen above, have gotten a good head start for us.

mattj · Mar 6th, 2010, 11:34:49 AM

Am I correct in assuming that the Seed you hit in FR/LG is based on the amount of time AND amount of button presses from SR to Mewtwo? I believe that's what I've read so far in these pages.

If so. My bud's just about to FINALLY clear out my FR for me, and I had an idea.

I have a Game Boy Player for my Gamecube, and a White Gamestop Gamecube Controller with a "Multi Speed Turbo" setting. If the seed is indeed dependednt upon time and button presses, I might "possibly" be able to use that Turbo setting to very consistently hit several different seeds (it has several speed settings, plus I could easily vary the begin time/etc).

Just a thought. What do y'all think?

Arseus · Mar 6th, 2010, 1:42:38 PM

First off, let me preface this post with an apology; I am sorry that I have not been able to reply to this topic sooner, and that I do not offer very compelling information below.

Zowayix, I am afraid that I cannot give you a clear answer either. It sounds as though what you are attempting would work, but I do not work with emulators, so I am not one hundred percent certain. I do know that there are many users (such as Equinox and Negator) who have attempted FireRed/LeafGreen abuse on emulators, so I would suggest contacting them. I cannot give you any information about RAM addresses either—if anyone knows, we might be able to use them to uncover the process of seeding as well.

Now, mattj, we are not, at the moment, one hundred percent certain as to what effect button presses have on the seed. chrish's research within this thread has demonstrated that the time between starting the game and beginning the battle with Mewtwo does have an effect upon how much the RNG advances, but no conclusive results have been found concerning button presses. I do not see any problems with your theory; chrish was able to consistently hit the same seed using the same timing, so logic dictates that you should be able to reproduce these results. If you are trying to get different seeds using button presses, may I request that you record the relevant information for each of your attempts (such as your seed, time, turbo settings, and so on)? It would be interesting if you could try different button presses (or a programmed set of presses, I do not really know how this "turbo" works) to attempt to arrive at the same seed, such as by using START in lieu of A to advance past the title screen, pressing A twice where only one press is needed, and so on. NeoSyrex was rather vague in his description of the RNG and button presses, so I cannot give you much to go on. If you are able to get the same seed using different button presses, then that would suggest that button presses do not actually have an effect on the RNG.

Nov 21st, 2009, 2:00:17 PM	#52
NixHex Queens of the Stone Edge Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,145 The desert Mentor	Thank you yayece, that was very helpful. The cartridges are pretty much identical. I was hoping that 1.0 would have the "official nintendo seal of quality" and 1.1 would have "official nintendo seal" (as indicated by maddox, of all people), but both of have "official nintendo seal." You can check the album in my profile that shows the two cartridges side by side. __________________ Pokemon Crystal breeds: Porygon (15/15/15/15/11) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Alakazam (15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Starmie(15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100

Nov 21st, 2009, 2:02:33 PM	#53
NixHex Queens of the Stone Edge Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,145 The desert Mentor	Oh yeah, this probably makes no difference, but if there was a glitch in the species naming style, that may indicate that they not only changed the glitch but also the programming of the RNG? A huge stretch and probably irrelevant, but just an idea. __________________ Pokemon Crystal breeds: Porygon (15/15/15/15/11) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Alakazam (15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Starmie(15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100

Nov 22nd, 2009, 5:23:40 AM	#55
NixHex Queens of the Stone Edge Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,145 The desert Mentor	More questions for chrish or whoever may have an answer to this. I've noticed some other possible variables in the intro sequence. 1. Did you keep the timing of the button press at the game freak star animation constant throughout your experiment? 2. Also, I was thinking that the journal that pops up after the continue screen may affect the rng, as it does in the 4th gen games. How did you approach these two parts when carrying out your tests? I've done about 24 spreads and have not matched a single one of yours or mine. I'll keep chugging. __________________ Pokemon Crystal breeds: Porygon (15/15/15/15/11) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Alakazam (15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100 Starmie(15/x/15/15/15) (full stat exp.) Lv 100

Nov 22nd, 2009, 4:57:09 PM	#56
pikachu25 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 553 GMT -5	I am currently SRing for a Mewtwo on an actual LG cartridge, so I can use the FRLG Seed Finder application and see if I duplicate seeds or not. Would this be of any help? __________________ Highest 4th Gen OU CRE: 1582.46 (#22) The latest version of PikaTimer is here. (Version 2.03- 4/15/10) Pikachu25's RNG Shack (Trade Thread) My White FC: 2537 5798 1419

Dec 31st, 2009, 6:47:45 PM	#67
Misdreavus Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,210 Orlando, FL	I'm so glad to see people finally getting around to this. Kudos to Arseus and everyone else involved! I have a question: Since, unlike Emerald, you have different seeds, and I've been told that every Pokémon game uses the same basic RNG, is every single 4th gen spread available in this game? Also, is research actively being conducted on this, or has it been "put on hold?" Thanks so much! __________________ My other Rotom is a washing machine.

Nov 24th, 2009, 9:56:23 AM	#60
chrish Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 14	1. Yes, we did keep the time constant on the title screen. 2. We used a set interval of 80 seconds for the journal of past activities to ensure that it completed before pressing A to initiate the battle. 3. Our original post (page 2 of this blog I think) had the exact timing of what we did. All our intervals were constant. We are now working (when we get the time) on reducing the scope of the problem. One reason I can think of that you might not be hitting any of our spreads is that each game cartridge seems to vary slightly in its timekeeping. As an example, we have been RNG abusing Emerald to get almost perfect Timid Latis and the elapsed time to hit the spread is over 3 1/2 hours. We are using a stopwatch that is guaranteed to be accurate to within 1 microsecond for a 10 hour period. What we have found is that once we callibrated the stopwatch, we were always within the margin of error (+- .1 seconds) of hitting our spread. However, when we tried for the same exact spread on a different Emerald cartridge, there was a difference of about 1/2 - 3/4 of a second for the same spread. This may be what is happening with the FR/LG games - just a thought; even 1/60th of a second would be enough to throw things off.

Dec 1st, 2009, 7:10:01 PM	#64
Arseus Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 869	I would again like to apologize that I have not posted in this thread as of late, but it seems as though you are all doing very well without me (not that there would have been any reason to suspect otherwise). My academic situation persists, and as such, I will again be absent during December, and pretty much in the foreseeable future. Starting the winter holidays (December 19 or so), I may be able to drop in on weekends, but I encourage you all to continue to collaborate amongst yourselves to further our understanding of the RNG. chrish, I had a feeling that game time made no difference, but I believe you have confirmed it. I am sorry I do not have time to comment on other aspects of your research, but I believe that I should say little more than the following: "You seem to know what you are doing. Keep up the good work." To the rest of you, thank you all for showing interest in this topic, and for helping each other out as the need arises. I hope I will have the time to work more directly with you soon.

Dec 22nd, 2009, 5:22:18 PM	#65
Jetcars4tots Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 10	Is there a RNG manipulation in Firered and Leafgreen?

Dec 22nd, 2009, 8:32:20 PM	#66
Arseus Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 869	RNG manipulation in FireRed and LeafGreen is, at the moment, more reactive than proactive. By this I mean, we cannot seek out a certain spread to hit, and alter our in-game approach (specifically, manipulate the seed) to hit this specific spread. However, as chrish has demonstrated, it is possible to hit the same spread multiple times through consistent timing, much like in Emerald. So it is possible to an extent, but the very purpose of this topic is to enhance our understanding of, and by extension, our ability to manipulate the RNG of FireRed and LeafGreen. I cannot promise that the FR/LG RNG will prove as malleable as Emerald's, as Diamond's, as Pearl's. What can readily be seen is that we are seeing the beginnings of RNG abuse, but we cannot dive in to actively reset for a 31/31/31/31/31/31 Timid Mewtwo. Hopefully this has answered your question.

Dec 31st, 2009, 10:42:46 PM	#68
Arseus Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 869	Every mainstream Pokémon game (i.e. every handheld iteration) since Ruby/Sapphire uses the same RNG, with slight variations on how they seed, cycle through spreads, and so on. So yes, every fourth generation spread should be technically available within FireRed/LeafGreen (though I am not sure how method K works exactly, I believe it is just a restriction of method 1). However, we do not know just how exploitable the RNG is at this point; how actively we can control the seed. For instance, in Emerald, we cannot change the starting seed at all (which, incidentally, is what makes it so easy to manipulate). As a result, it is "technically" possible to obtain a 31/31/31/31/31/31 spread, but one would have to wait weeks (even months depending on the spread) for it to roll around, and hope that the spread would even be hit on that attempt! We know that FireRed and LeafGreen do change their seed, and that the same seed can be reproduced through consistent timing (see chrish's research). However, we do not know exactly how to alter this seed to a specific result, as one enters a certain time in Diamond and Pearl. It may be that we are limited to a certain number of seeds, thus leaving only certain spreads within practical reach. If Emerald is left on for a year or so, all spreads will be cycled through; presumably FireRed/LeafGreen have more spreads easily obtainable because of a diverse seeding process. However, to answer your question, I believe that it would suffice to say that any spread in a fourth generation game is theoretically obtainable in FireRed/LeafGreen. More difficult, perhaps, to obtain, but theoretically obtainable. As for your question on the state of this research. I cannot speak for any individual member in this thread, save myself, but I believe that the research is slow, but ongoing. We still do not know how the game seeds (any help is appreciated!), but if you look at the different posts in the thread, I think you will find that we have made progress from October, when it was thought that obtaining the same seed was impossible. However, on a personal level, I am far less involved in this research than I would like to be; it is due to my winter holidays that I am even posting right now. However, this is due to schoolwork eating up my time; as I posted earlier, I encourage everyone to continue posting their results. I thank you, among others, for showing interest in this undertaking. An even bigger thanks to all those who have contributed research up to this point! This will be my last post on this subject for 2009, but I hope that this endeavour will stay alive into the new year.

Mar 6th, 2010, 1:42:38 PM	#75
Arseus Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 869	First off, let me preface this post with an apology; I am sorry that I have not been able to reply to this topic sooner, and that I do not offer very compelling information below. Zowayix, I am afraid that I cannot give you a clear answer either. It sounds as though what you are attempting would work, but I do not work with emulators, so I am not one hundred percent certain. I do know that there are many users (such as Equinox and Negator) who have attempted FireRed/LeafGreen abuse on emulators, so I would suggest contacting them. I cannot give you any information about RAM addresses either—if anyone knows, we might be able to use them to uncover the process of seeding as well. Now, mattj, we are not, at the moment, one hundred percent certain as to what effect button presses have on the seed. chrish's research within this thread has demonstrated that the time between starting the game and beginning the battle with Mewtwo does have an effect upon how much the RNG advances, but no conclusive results have been found concerning button presses. I do not see any problems with your theory; chrish was able to consistently hit the same seed using the same timing, so logic dictates that you should be able to reproduce these results. If you are trying to get different seeds using button presses, may I request that you record the relevant information for each of your attempts (such as your seed, time, turbo settings, and so on)? It would be interesting if you could try different button presses (or a programmed set of presses, I do not really know how this "turbo" works) to attempt to arrive at the same seed, such as by using START in lieu of A to advance past the title screen, pressing A twice where only one press is needed, and so on. NeoSyrex was rather vague in his description of the RNG and button presses, so I cannot give you much to go on. If you are able to get the same seed using different button presses, then that would suggest that button presses do not actually have an effect on the RNG.