CAP Revisions Playtesting

tennisace · Jan 14th, 2010, 6:12:25 PM

After nearly a month and a half of discussion, we're done. The original three Create-A-Pokemon have been revised to be more in-tune with the current metagame. In addition, all the Pokemon up to CAP 8 (Cyclohm) gained new tutor moves (in accordance with this thread). This thread will serve the purpose of the general "playtesting thread". In here, discuss the changes to the Pokemon, their effects on the metagame, and of course, what sets do and/or don't work.

So, lets introduce the changes, in order of creation.

Syclant

70 HP / 115 Atk / 70 Def / 115 SpA / 65 SpD / 120 Spe

Moves Added

Revenankh

94 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 50 SpA / 120 SpD / 71 Spe

Abilities Removed: Air Lock
Abilities Added: Mold Breaker

Moves Added

Pyroak

117 HP / 105 Atk / 102 Def / 80 SpA / 96 SDef / 70 Spe

Abilities Removed: Battle Armour
Abilities Added: Flash Fire

Moves Added

Fidgit

Moves Added

Stratagem

Moves Added

Arghonaut

Moves Added

Kitsunoh

Moves Added

Cyclohm

Moves Added

For reference, Colossoil now has Fire Blast, which was erroneously left out of the original movepool. The playtesting period will last two weeks after the programming changes are made.

Remember: Don't post based on theorymon. Post based on your experiences with the changes.

Umbreon Dan · Jan 23rd, 2010, 9:07:24 PM

Pyroak is definitely tearing shit up. Grass/Fire STAB means it hits water, steel, ground, and grass for super effective damage, including virtually every physical wall in the metagame.

the common set is:

Adamant@life orb
Rock Head
~Dragon Dance
~Flare Blitz
~Wood Hammer
~Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge

Fire/grass isn't amazing type coverage, but it's perfectly acceptable given that it hits almost every physically bulky pokemon for super effective damage, including hippowdon, skarmory, forretress, metagross, celebi, vaporeon, suicune, swampert, arghonaut, and shaymin.

Earthquake covers heatran, one of the few pokemon that can stop this rampage, leaves it vulnerable to salamence (though salamence takes takes around 41 % from an unboosted flare blitz anyway). Dragon Claw OHKOes salamence at the expense of losing to Heatran. Stone edge is the compromise, hitting heatran neutral and OHKOing salamence, but then cyclohm becomes an issue. Stone edge does nail other Pyroak though (Pyroak with Flash Fire is one of DDOak's best counters). cresselia is the only wall that i can think of that pyroak can't hit super effectively.

In all the excitement about Pyroak, Revenankh's new possibilities haven't really been explored, but revenankh is unbelievably bulky now. The spread using 216 sdef EVs before is equivalent to only 56 EVs now, leaving 160 available for defense, attack, or more even sdef.

compared to some other walls:

Code:

252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast  
  
  vs. 252/252 Careful Revenankh : 35.5% - 42.1%
  vs. 252/4 Impish Hippowdon : 67.4% - 79.5%
  vs. 252/252 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 64.7% - 76.3%
  vs. 252/0 Bold Suicune : 24% - 28.2%
  vs. 252/4 Impish Arghonaut : 26.1% - 30.9%

252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz  
  
  vs. 252/4 Careful Revenankh : 60.5% - 71.4%
  vs. 252/252 Impish Hippowdon : 33.6% - 39.5%
  vs. 252/4 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 44.3% - 52.4%
  vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune : 17.8% - 20.8%
  vs. 252/252 Impish Arghonaut : 19.6% - 23.2%

Overall

252/4/252 Careful Revenankh : 96% - 113.5%
252/252/4 Impish Hippowdon : 101% - 119%
252/4/252 Impish Occa Skarmory : 109% - 128.7%
252/252/4 Bold Suicune : 83.6% - 98% 
252/252/4 Impish Arghonaut : 91.4% - 108.2%

suicune and arghonaut numbers doubled for comparison

Revenankh ranks among the best mixed walls in the metagame...

Numerator · Jan 24th, 2010, 1:08:24 AM

The Pyroak set Umbreon Dan posted is truly monstrous. I almost always have to sacrifice something to stop it. However, I noticed that Stratagem can check it well.

Timid Stratagem w/ 176 speed EVs will outrun Jolly max speed Pyroak, and it's Paleo Wave (assuming 252 special attack EVs, but no Life Orb) will deal ~72%-84% to min/min Pyroak. Furthermore, Pyroak's +1 Adamant max attack Life Orb Flare Blitz will deal ~89%-94% to min/min Stratagem, so Strata has a chance to switch in if there are no rocks out.

(I lost all my actual calcs, but I know what they were.)

Stratagem, however, is mostly walled by Revenankh. Stratagem's Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball does 40.3%-48% to 252 HP/56 SpD Careful Revenankh. All its other attacks will do little over half as much. Revenankh can then OHKO with Hammer Arm, or finish off a severely weakened Strata with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch.

I also tried this lead Syclant:

Jolly@Focus Sash
4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe
Taunt
Spikes
X-Scissor
Ice Shard

It taunts, then sets up one or two layers of Spikes. It doesn't do much else. You can give it special attacks, but...it will still do the exact same things while it's out. HP Grass will kill Swampert, HP Electric kills Gyarados and Ice beam might hurt the rare lead Stratagem enough that Revenankh's Shadow Sneak will kill it. However, in most cases, you should just focus on getting spikes up.

The only leads I've actually faced with this guy are Swampert and Stratagem. Against Swampert, I can generally stop its rocks and then Spike twice. If Hydro Pump misses (or if Swampy doesn't carry a strong neutral move) then I get three layers up and laugh. If I see Strata, my first instinct is to bring in Revenankh.

I don't know how it fares against most leads, since few people actually go on the CAP ladder.

Needless to say, this set completely shuts down most Fidgit. And, needless to say, Your ability should be mountaineer.

Zystral · Jan 24th, 2010, 5:45:56 AM

Been playing with DDOak and it is as insane as Dan says it is. Very fun.

TrickSpecs Stratagem isn't as coolio as I'd hoped, but nevertheless still really fun to mess people up.
Timid @ Choice Specs
[Technician]
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Trick
- Ancientpower
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain

that's what I've been playing with, and while it lacks the long-end power of the Calm Minder, it's a lot more useful early game, especially being able to stop Blissey letting DDOak come in and set up.
Magnet Rise + Technician seems fun, but it's hard to find space for it.

Infiltrator · Jan 24th, 2010, 10:42:37 AM

I've been using a set similar to Dan's nad I've got to say, with Dragon Dance at Pyroak's disposal, can be a serious threat to any unprepared team. Here's the set I've been using:

Pyroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 5 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
---

With the EVs invested Pyroak is able to out speed the likes of Fidgit, Infernape, Starmie, Latias, and Gengar. It also seems that Pyroak has the potential to break walls better than Colosoil, being able to OHKO Skarm after a DD while 2HKOing it with without the attack boost. I've compiled a list of the damage Pyroak can cause to the top Stallmons in the current metagame:

Quote:

Timid Fidgit vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(no Dragon Dance):
339 Atk vs 254 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 223 - 264 (56.60% - 67.01%)

Timid Fidgit vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(Dragon Dance):
508 Atk vs 254 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 334 - 394 (84.77% - 100.00%)

Quote:

Bulky Gyarados vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/FLare Blitz + Stealth Rock(no Dragon Dance):
339 Atk vs 217 Def & 370 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 309 (70.81% - 83.51%)

Bulky Gyarados vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/FLare Blitz + Stealth Rock(Dragon Dance):
508 Atk vs 217 Def & 370 HP (120 Base Power): 391 - 462 (105.68% - 124.86%)

Quote:

Defensive CM Latias vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(no Dragon Dance):
339 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (120 Base Power): 132 - 156 (39.64% - 46.85%)

Defensive CM Latias vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(Dragon Dance):
508 Atk vs 216 Def & 333 HP (120 Base Power): 197 - 232 (59.16% - 69.67%)

Support Latias vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(Dragon Dance):
508 Atk vs 217 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 195 - 231 (53.57% - 63.46%)

Support Latias vs Pyroak Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz(no Dragon Dance):
339 Atk vs 217 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 131 - 154 (35.99% - 42.31%)

Quote:

Tentacruel vs Pyroak Wood Hammer(no Dragon Dance):
339 Atk vs 196 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 144 - 171 (39.56% - 46.98%)

Tentacruel vs Pyroak Wood Hammer(Dragon Dance):
508 Atk vs 196 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 216 - 255 (59.34% - 70.05%)

I'll add in more calcs later...

EDIT: gonna also playtest some other of the CAPs when I'm done with Pyroak.

Engineer Pikachu · Jan 24th, 2010, 11:58:55 AM

For the DDOak using Wood Hammer on BulkyGyara, did you factor in Intimidate?

Infiltrator · Jan 24th, 2010, 1:58:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

For the DDOak using Wood Hammer on BulkyGyara, did you factor in Intimidate?

There was really no need because if Oak would have set up an DD before Gyarados came in it would result in the same damage calcs without the DD boost. But if he didn't set up and got intimidate, here is the outcome:

Quote:

Bulky Gyarados + Intimidate vs Pyroak Wood Hammer(no Dragon Dance):
226 Atk vs 218 Def & 370 HP (120 Base Power): 174 - 205 (47.03% - 55.41%)

tennisace · Jan 24th, 2010, 2:18:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Numerator

I also tried this lead Syclant:

Jolly@Focus Sash
4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe
Taunt
Spikes
X-Scissor
Ice Shard

It taunts, then sets up one or two layers of Spikes. It doesn't do much else. You can give it special attacks, but...it will still do the exact same things while it's out. HP Grass will kill Swampert, HP Electric kills Gyarados and Ice beam might hurt the rare lead Stratagem enough that Revenankh's Shadow Sneak will kill it. However, in most cases, you should just focus on getting spikes up.

The only leads I've actually faced with this guy are Swampert and Stratagem. Against Swampert, I can generally stop its rocks and then Spike twice. If Hydro Pump misses (or if Swampy doesn't carry a strong neutral move) then I get three layers up and laugh. If I see Strata, my first instinct is to bring in Revenankh.

I don't know how it fares against most leads, since few people actually go on the CAP ladder.

Needless to say, this set completely shuts down most Fidgit. And, needless to say, Your ability should be mountaineer.

If you're running a lead, why bother with Mountaineer? I use Compoundeyes and Megahorn, for the extra power. I also run Super Fang over Ice Shard so that I can completely mess up things like Blissey later.

FlareBlitz · Jan 24th, 2010, 4:51:22 PM

DD Pyroak is absolutely monstrous. However, I use a slightly different set from what's been posted:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
Adamant 24 HP 252 ATK 232 SPE
-Dragon Dance
-Flare Blitz
-Wood Hammer
-Sleep Powder

The EVs let it outrun up to base 110+ SPE Pokemon. Dragon Dance and the two STABs are obvious, but I quickly found that I couldn't cover everything I wanted to cover with the last move. Therefore, I decided to use Sleep Powder over a coverage move. This allows Pyroak to cripple one of its counters and either set up more Dragon Dances or attack a few mores times, thus hopefully beating it. This set has massive heatran problems though, as even if Heatran is asleep, Pyroak can't do a lot to it. But then, using Dragon Claw would get you walled by it too, and at least this way, you can at least cripple Heatran.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 24th, 2010, 7:21:08 PM

I've been ravaged something serious by a DDOak. With Sleep Powder, it reliably gets free turns to DD, and if it gets two (which with its bulk isn't terribly difficult), it completely smashes teams not carrying Heatran. I really don't want to have to bring a Heatran on every team just to deal with it. Also, the potential for it to run EQ to handle the likes of Heatran and Cyclohm is terrifying.

The only things that can really break it offensively after a single DD are Strategem who hits for ~70% with Paleo Wave. Cyclohm can smash it if it can get in before the DD to Draco Meteor, but EQ simply demolishes Cyclohm, so..

HD · Jan 24th, 2010, 8:28:26 PM

The thing about Oak is that you will always be able to beat it with at least one poke: if you run DClaw, you get fucked by Heatran. If you run EQ, you get fucked by Dragons. And hell, those two have high usages, so it generally isn't a problem. But people keep forgetting about Stone Edge, the happy medium. You take out weakened Heatran and also hit the Dragons.

Umbreon Dan · Jan 25th, 2010, 1:14:09 AM

Just an fyi to all of you using 252 / 252 Pyroak: putting the last four EVs into HP gives Pyroak 376 HP, which rounds up Stealth Rock damage. Unless you plan to make sure that Pyroak is never switching in to Stealth Rock, stick the last four into Defense instead.

Mattman324 · Jan 25th, 2010, 1:21:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat HD

The thing about Oak is that you will always be able to beat it with at least one poke: if you run DClaw, you get fucked by Heatran. If you run EQ, you get fucked by Dragons. And hell, those two have high usages, so it generally isn't a problem. But people keep forgetting about Stone Edge, the happy medium. You take out weakened Heatran and also hit the Dragons.

But then you get fucked by Thunderdi- er, Cycolhm. Also, Flygon likes that move (not as much as EQ, but still...) a lot.

The problem is more like Salamances with handling it: if you have to run pokemon to counter SPECIFIC moves/movesets, then it's broken. I personnaly don't want to have to see if it has EQ or not before figuring out the counter, expecially since Flare Blitz might burn my now useless counter in the meanwhile. (Course, my sandstorm team is royally screwed if Stratagem is dead, and I have to revenge kill, but meh. That's beside the point)

tennisace · Jan 25th, 2010, 5:21:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Mattman324

The problem is more like Salamances with handling it: if you have to run pokemon to counter SPECIFIC moves/movesets, then it's broken. I personnaly don't want to have to see if it has EQ or not before figuring out the counter, expecially since Flare Blitz might burn my now useless counter in the meanwhile. (Course, my sandstorm team is royally screwed if Stratagem is dead, and I have to revenge kill, but meh. That's beside the point)

Yeah except that counters don't really exist in DP. If there are no checks, then you start having a problem. Stratagem can check any Pyroak with 1 DD or less. Revenankh can check Pyroak by just using Bulk Up along-side. Salamence can check Pyroak by surviving anything save Stone Edge and severely hurting it with either Outrage or Stone Edge of its own. Do you see what I'm getting at? I agree that it's very powerful, but it's like Gyarados in my eyes (another semi-decent check). Its Stealth Rock weakness limits it, and it's really slow without a DD.

Plus · Jan 25th, 2010, 6:47:22 PM

Damn, Revenankh is really fucking bulky. I hope we didn't make Rev too strong. Needless to say there are still ways to deal with it such as Argho and Skarm, but offensively it's a bit harder to keep up with the dude once he has a Bulk Up up his sleeve. It shrugs off Draco Meteors coming from Latias Mence and Cyclohm with a mere Rest and can do whatever it wants afterwards. As a result, I've been running stall again, and Revenankh really did get that much better with the revisions. But as always, time will tell if Revenankh really is *too good*.

**Elevator Music** · Jan 25th, 2010, 6:55:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Umbreon Dan

Just an fyi to all of you using 252 / 252 Pyroak: putting the last four EVs into HP gives Pyroak 376 HP, which rounds up Stealth Rock damage. Unless you plan to make sure that Pyroak is never switching in to Stealth Rock, stick the last four into Defense instead.

This is pretty irrelevant considering that all of these Pyroak have either Leftovers or Life Orb (usually LO). The chances that they won't attack once out of the 4 times they come in is... pretty bad.

EDIT- Also I'm agreeing with Plus about Revenankh ahaha... "time will tell"

Rising_Dusk · Jan 25th, 2010, 7:30:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Stratagem can check any Pyroak with 1 DD or less.

It's really dangerous switching in if he knows it's there, since Wood Hammer instead of DD will easily OHKO Levitate Stratagem. Usually, though, people are greedy and will go for the DD. In those cases, Strata really does check it well. He's usually my response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Revenankh can check Pyroak by just using Bulk Up along-side.

Yeah, definitely. Most players will switch out their Pyroak on that match up, though, since Rev will win unless Pyroak gets a crit. This is especially handy since Pyroak sucks up another 25% SR damage when it comes back in later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

Damn, Revenankh is really fucking bulky. I hope we didn't make Rev too strong. Needless to say there are still ways to deal with it such as Argho and Skarm, but offensively it's a bit harder to keep up with the dude once he has a Bulk Up up his sleeve. It shrugs off Draco Meteors coming from Latias Mence and Cyclohm with a mere Rest and can do whatever it wants afterwards. As a result, I've been running stall again, and Revenankh really did get that much better with the revisions. But as always, time will tell if Revenankh really is *too good*.

Togekiss perfectly counters the Bulk Up Revenankh without question. It can switch into any of its moves the first turn its out, being immune to Shadow Sneak and resisting Hammer Arm, and is faster and immediately threatens 40-50% Air Slashes with 60% chance to flinch. That isn't even considering the possibility that Togekiss encores Bulk Up and turns Rev into setup fodder.

Staraptor also works similarly, threatening a OHKO with Brave Bird if the thing hasn't gotten any Bulk Ups, but Togekiss is more widely useful to a team in CAP with its bulk and so on.

**Elevator Music** · Jan 25th, 2010, 7:42:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

Togekiss perfectly counters the Bulk Up Revenankh without question. It can switch into any of its moves the first turn its out, being immune to Shadow Sneak and resisting Hammer Arm, and is faster and immediately threatens 40-50% Air Slashes with 60% chance to flinch. That isn't even considering the possibility that Togekiss encores Bulk Up and turns Rev into setup fodder.

Staraptor also works similarly, threatening a OHKO with Brave Bird if the thing hasn't gotten any Bulk Ups, but Togekiss is more widely useful to a team in CAP with its bulk and so on.

Again, just posting to point some stuff out. Plus's point was that Revenankh is a lot harder to check on most "offensive" teams. Yes, Togekiss and Staraptor are undoubtedly offensive (unless you're running a defensive Kiss set but w/e), but they both already have huge problems in the CAP metagame (cue Cyclohm/Blissey/yadayada for Togekiss and... every OU threat that counters/checks Staraptor).

In the current metagame, it looks like (Yes, this is theorymon and we're not really supposed to do that, but it's an observation nonetheless) a lot of Revenankhs better offensive checks don't do so hot. Pokemon that really would work well enough against it (most "semibulky flying-types") are solidly checked by many other CAPs, and Collosoil makes most of the Psychic-types that can do stuff to Rev pretty nonexistant.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 25th, 2010, 8:21:44 PM

Everything that you use to counter one Pokemon will have its own counters that your team must be capable of dealing with. That's one of the most important parts of team-building. Togekiss isn't quintessentially amazing at beating everything, but between countering Arghonaut and Revenankh, it finds a great home in many CAP teams of many types. (Not as if you didn't already know that, though)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

In the current metagame, it looks like (Yes, this is theorymon and we're not really supposed to do that, but it's an observation nonetheless) a lot of Revenankhs better offensive checks don't do so hot.

Speaking from experience in playing these past few days with the new revisions, most don't. Arghonaut still beats it, and Pyroak wins if it can get +1 attack over Rev's defense boosts. (Before Rev gets enough attack to beat it with Hammer Arm) Rev outclasses all Draco Meteor users, but if it uses Rest in anticipation of a Draco Meteor, sometimes you can set up on that turn. That's about the best that can be done, though.

Kitsu beats it if it can trick it a scarf. Furthermore, between Kitsu and some normal Pokemon, you carry immunities to anything Rev might get choiced into using. (And its useless after that when you force it out) Anything else with Trick completely beats it. (Since it doesn't use Substitute)

Trying to think what else I've run into trying to beat it.. Nothing else really comes to mind offhand.

TekkenStorm · Jan 25th, 2010, 9:19:08 PM

Feels good seeing Pyroak as a menace for the first time. He was always my favourite CAP, being also the time I joined in and I must say I waited for this moment a long time ago. I still remember when I spammed the server demanding a Pyroak revision and how he sucks while the mods telling me to shut up and that it will never going to happen, that he's fine the way he is. Hehe.

Anyway, Pyroak is certainly powerful. I run the standard DD set with Sleep Powder as fourth move but I recently starting to notice this was not doing so well, there was a rise in stall teams. Spikes and SR were hurting badly Pyroak plus with Life Orb his stay on the field was pretty short lived.

I will consider running a rapid spinner to counter this and use a more bulky Pyroak, similair to Bulky DD Gyarados which always did wonders for me.

**Elevator Music** · Jan 25th, 2010, 9:41:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

Everything that you use to counter one Pokemon will have its own counters that your team must be capable of dealing with. That's one of the most important parts of team-building. Togekiss isn't quintessentially amazing at beating everything, but between countering Arghonaut and Revenankh, it finds a great home in many CAP teams of many types. (Not as if you didn't already know that, though)

That argument turns in on itself when you realize the Rev user isn't just using Rev+5 random mons. The Rev team could be prepared for potential answers to pokemon like Togekiss/insert other Rev checks and counters.

Quote:

Speaking from experience in playing these past few days with the new revisions, most don't. Arghonaut still beats it, and Pyroak wins if it can get +1 attack over Rev's defense boosts. (Before Rev gets enough attack to beat it with Hammer Arm) Rev outclasses all Draco Meteor users, but if it uses Rest in anticipation of a Draco Meteor, sometimes you can set up on that turn. That's about the best that can be done, though.

Arghonaut isn't really an offensive threat. Pyroak won't ever be 1 boost above Rev unless it comes in first (which really isnt the point). You're kinda proving the point in saying Rev can just rest off DM damage like nothing -.-

Quote:

Kitsu beats it if it can trick it a scarf. Furthermore, between Kitsu and some normal Pokemon, you carry immunities to anything Rev might get choiced into using. (And its useless after that when you force it out) Anything else with Trick completely beats it. (Since it doesn't use Substitute)

Trick is a method of dealing with it, but your argument that ghost pokemon+normal pokemon helps with Rev isn't necessarily true. Just because Revenankh can't touch you doesn't mean you CAN touch it... and if you can't touch it, you can't beat it, and since it's the stat upper it'll win (not to mention you'd have to PP stall it out of Hammer Arm or whatever which is somewhat silly).

I'm not doing any more back-and-forth though.

I've been testing an offensive team I made with Plus, and it's doing pretty good. I'm running Taunt on like everything that has trouble with defensive pokemon, or giving it Trick, etc, so I haven't had much trouble with more defensive teams. Or Rev really, though I surprisingly haven't battled it much.

EDIT- why did we make stratagem's movepool even bigger?

Rising_Dusk · Jan 26th, 2010, 12:01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

That argument turns in on itself when you realize the Rev user isn't just using Rev+5 random mons. The Rev team could be prepared for potential answers to pokemon like Togekiss/insert other Rev checks and counters.

So does yours, since if they pack counters to Togekiss, you probably pack counters to those counters. This cyclic argument just repeats itself until someone gets tired of arguing it. Really, the fact that Togekiss counters Rev is enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

Arghonaut isn't really an offensive threat. Pyroak won't ever be 1 boost above Rev unless it comes in first (which really isnt the point). You're kinda proving the point in saying Rev can just rest off DM damage like nothing -.-

Err, I never argued against the point. All I said was that Togekiss is a perfect counter and then I agreed that most offensive threats can't beat him. You seem to be a bit confused here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

Trick is a method of dealing with it, but your argument that ghost pokemon+normal pokemon helps with Rev isn't necessarily true. Just because Revenankh can't touch you doesn't mean you CAN touch it... and if you can't touch it, you can't beat it, and since it's the stat upper it'll win (not to mention you'd have to PP stall it out of Hammer Arm or whatever which is somewhat silly).

Trick defeats it soundly, though. Also, once its been tricked into something, you can whittle it down with whatever you need to. I'm not even theorymonning here, it actually works really well. It's also not as if you let him get 6 Bulk Ups before attempting the Trick. With only one or two defense boosts, he's still pretty soundly smashed by physical moves to be 3 or 4HKO'd. For instance, if locked into Shadow Sneak with a +2, Collossoil only takes 15-17.7% damage and Crunches/Sucker Punches for 21.4-25.5%. If he gets locked into Rest or Bulk Up, you get free turns to set up as long as he stays in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

I'm not doing any more back-and-forth though.

Suit yourself, although it's healthy to discuss it as we are.

HR. · Jan 26th, 2010, 3:03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

It's really dangerous switching in if he knows it's there, since Wood Hammer instead of DD will easily OHKO Levitate Stratagem. Usually, though, people are greedy and will go for the DD. In those cases, Strata really does check it well. He's usually my response.

Yeah, definitely. Most players will switch out their Pyroak on that match up, though, since Rev will win unless Pyroak gets a crit. This is especially handy since Pyroak sucks up another 25% SR damage when it comes back in later.

Togekiss perfectly counters the Bulk Up Revenankh without question. It can switch into any of its moves the first turn its out, being immune to Shadow Sneak and resisting Hammer Arm, and is faster and immediately threatens 40-50% Air Slashes with 60% chance to flinch. That isn't even considering the possibility that Togekiss encores Bulk Up and turns Rev into setup fodder.

Staraptor also works similarly, threatening a OHKO with Brave Bird if the thing hasn't gotten any Bulk Ups, but Togekiss is more widely useful to a team in CAP with its bulk and so on.

I'd just like to point out that Togekiss does not resist Hammer Arm, making it more of a check than a counter.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 26th, 2010, 10:11:06 AM

Yeah, it's neutral, but Togekiss' bulk lets it take an unboosted Hammer Arm at only 33.0-38.9% (That's with 248 HP EVs, no Def EVs, and no nature boost). Even with SR, that fails to 2HKO a huge portion of the time. 32 Def EVs guarantee it can't 2HKO after SR. That's a great counter, if you ask me. (Especially with Roost in your arsenal)

Zach · Jan 26th, 2010, 2:55:46 PM

stall is extremely hard to pull off with the new cap revisions. First off, DDOak positively rapes CAP stall teams that look like: Lead Hippo/Pert, Blissey, Arghonaut, Reveankh, Fidgit, Skarmory. Everything bar Reveankh is hit for super effective damage, who is OHKOed by +1 LO Flare Blitz iirc.

by the way;

sleep powder + dragon dance is illegal!!!

or at least it should be due to egg groups, but I've faced it on the ladder :(.

Anyway, stall needs to run several checks to Pyroak to win. One option is Latias, although she must watch for Dragon Claw, and the omnipresent Colossoil. There's Cyclohm, who KOes with an LO Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock, but it must watch for Earthquake / Dragon Claw. There's Heatran, who can Fire Blast, but Heatran must watch for Flash Fire and Earthquake. Etc, etc.; there is no one check to Pyroak, because almost everything with a Choice Scarf is unable to OHKO it, and everything else is hit by one of its auxiliary moves. The best check afaik is Choice Scarf Togekiss. Togekiss outruns at +1, hits with STAB super effective Air Slash, hopefully for a flinch, and then again for the KO. Togekiss also takes on Reveankh, as talked about above, making it a very anti-metagame pokemon atm. It can also have some fun against stall by tricking its Scarf away.

Earlier in the playtest when I was running stall I relied on a Scarf Kitsunoh + Scarf Cyclohm to take out Pyroak. With Stealth Rock and a little extra damage, possibly from Kitsunoh's ShadowStrike, Cyclohm's Draco Meteor was a KO. However, this was obviously a very poor way of dealing with the issue, and I eventually scrapped the team because I couldn't pass a ~1490ish cre. As far as other stall teams are concerned, I know Plus uses Toxic Spikes mainly for Pyroak, but otherwise I'm not sure how they are dealing with it. I think Pyroak is probably the most broken CAP as a result of revisions.

Moving on to Colossoil: it has Fire Blast, Skarmory beware. Yeah, now that Colossoil has Fire Blast stall lost its 100% counter in Skarmory. This makes me think that it would be wise for Skarmory to run Brave Bird rather than Taunt (though most probably run the former anyway) so that it is easier to weaken Colossoil without resorting purely to entry hazard damage. When I ran stall, I used 202 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey, which took about ~60% from Adamant Life Orb Earthquake, so that I could stall Colossoil out with Life Orb damage, if need be. However, I believe Colossoil is not broken, it is just a top tier OU pokemon.

*note: i do realize, for the record, that colossoil did not receive fire blast as a result of cap revisions.

one last thing:

I just want to be clear that I think stall is very possible and viable to pull off, although the golden age of cap stall is over.

edit:

one more thing again:

trick/choice ruins rev

Jan 14th, 2010, 6:12:25 PM	#1
tennisace RIDE OR DIE MOTHERFUCKERS ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,237	CAP Revisions Playtesting After nearly a month and a half of discussion, we're done. The original three Create-A-Pokemon have been revised to be more in-tune with the current metagame. In addition, all the Pokemon up to CAP 8 (Cyclohm) gained new tutor moves (in accordance with this thread). This thread will serve the purpose of the general "playtesting thread". In here, discuss the changes to the Pokemon, their effects on the metagame, and of course, what sets do and/or don't work. So, lets introduce the changes, in order of creation. Syclant 70 HP / 115 Atk / 70 Def / 115 SpA / 65 SpD / 120 Spe Moves Added Earthquake Focus Blast Focus Punch Grass Knot Leaf Blade Megahorn Psychic Spikes Stone Edge Vacuum Wave Aqua Tail Superpower Magic Coat Tailwind Super Fang Headbutt Gastro Acid Gunk Shot Mud-slap Ancientpower Bug Bite Fury Cutter Snore String Shot Helping Hand Uproar Revenankh 94 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 50 SpA / 120 SpD / 71 Spe Abilities Removed: Air Lock Abilities Added: Mold Breaker Moves Added Cross Chop Fire Punch Shadow Claw Stone Edge Sucker Punch Thunderpunch Will-o-Wisp Earth Power Superpower Vacuum Wave Zen Headbutt Headbutt String Shot Helping Hand Last Resort Uproar Pyroak 117 HP / 105 Atk / 102 Def / 80 SpA / 96 SDef / 70 Spe Abilities Removed: Battle Armour Abilities Added: Flash Fire Moves Added Double-Edge Dragon Claw Dragon Dance Dragon Pulse Earthquake Leaf Blade Rock Slide Sleep Powder Stone Edge Stun Spore Earth Power Outrage Knock Off Block Headbutt Gastro Acid Gunk Shot Mud-slap Snore String Shot Worry Seed Helping Hand Last Resort Uproar Heat Wave Low Kick Fire Punch Iron Head Endeavor Iron Defense Thunderpunch Zen Headbutt Fidgit Moves Added Seed Bomb Icy Wind Ice Punch Thunderpunch Headbutt Gastro Acid Rollout Swift Last Resort Role Play Uproar Stratagem Moves Added Signal Beam Heat Wave Icy Wind Trick Gravity Bounce Iron Head Zen Headbutt Headbutt Knock Off Mud-slap Rollout Ominous Wind Fury Cutter Air Cutter Snore Swift Uproar Magnet Rise Arghonaut Moves Added Low Kick Aqua Tail Iron Head Superpower Knock Off Sucker Punch Magic Coat Block Headbutt Gunk Shot Twister Whirlpool Dive Snore Uproar Kitsunoh Moves Added Endeavor Magic Coat Low Kick Super Fang Pain Split Headbutt Mud-slap Ominous Wind Snore Spite Last Resort Role Play Cyclohm Moves Added Headbutt Zen Headbutt Rollout Whirlpool Sky Attack Snore Uproar For reference, Colossoil now has Fire Blast, which was erroneously left out of the original movepool. The playtesting period will last two weeks after the programming changes are made. Remember: Don't post based on theorymon. Post based on your experiences with the changes. __________________ ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ Last edited by tennisace; Jan 23rd, 2010 at 8:37:52 PM.

Jan 23rd, 2010, 9:07:24 PM	#2
Umbreon Dan Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 3,185 kiss my ass, this is a holy site.	Pyroak is definitely tearing shit up. Grass/Fire STAB means it hits water, steel, ground, and grass for super effective damage, including virtually every physical wall in the metagame. the common set is: Adamant@life orb Rock Head ~Dragon Dance ~Flare Blitz ~Wood Hammer ~Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge Fire/grass isn't amazing type coverage, but it's perfectly acceptable given that it hits almost every physically bulky pokemon for super effective damage, including hippowdon, skarmory, forretress, metagross, celebi, vaporeon, suicune, swampert, arghonaut, and shaymin. Earthquake covers heatran, one of the few pokemon that can stop this rampage, leaves it vulnerable to salamence (though salamence takes takes around 41 % from an unboosted flare blitz anyway). Dragon Claw OHKOes salamence at the expense of losing to Heatran. Stone edge is the compromise, hitting heatran neutral and OHKOing salamence, but then cyclohm becomes an issue. Stone edge does nail other Pyroak though (Pyroak with Flash Fire is one of DDOak's best counters). cresselia is the only wall that i can think of that pyroak can't hit super effectively. In all the excitement about Pyroak, Revenankh's new possibilities haven't really been explored, but revenankh is unbelievably bulky now. The spread using 216 sdef EVs before is equivalent to only 56 EVs now, leaving 160 available for defense, attack, or more even sdef. compared to some other walls: Code: 252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252/252 Careful Revenankh : 35.5% - 42.1% vs. 252/4 Impish Hippowdon : 67.4% - 79.5% vs. 252/252 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 64.7% - 76.3% vs. 252/0 Bold Suicune : 24% - 28.2% vs. 252/4 Impish Arghonaut : 26.1% - 30.9% 252 Naive Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252/4 Careful Revenankh : 60.5% - 71.4% vs. 252/252 Impish Hippowdon : 33.6% - 39.5% vs. 252/4 Impish Occa Berry Skarmory : 44.3% - 52.4% vs. 252/252 Bold Suicune : 17.8% - 20.8% vs. 252/252 Impish Arghonaut : 19.6% - 23.2% Overall 252/4/252 Careful Revenankh : 96% - 113.5% 252/252/4 Impish Hippowdon : 101% - 119% 252/4/252 Impish Occa Skarmory : 109% - 128.7% 252/252/4 Bold Suicune : 83.6% - 98% 252/252/4 Impish Arghonaut : 91.4% - 108.2% suicune and arghonaut numbers doubled for comparison Revenankh ranks among the best mixed walls in the metagame... __________________ 9.9 dan likes to ramble <@Fatecrashers> im really gay <@Fatecrashers> and i might fart rainbows Last edited by Umbreon Dan; Jan 23rd, 2010 at 10:07:23 PM.

Jan 24th, 2010, 1:08:24 AM	#3
Numerator Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1	The Pyroak set Umbreon Dan posted is truly monstrous. I almost always have to sacrifice something to stop it. However, I noticed that Stratagem can check it well. Timid Stratagem w/ 176 speed EVs will outrun Jolly max speed Pyroak, and it's Paleo Wave (assuming 252 special attack EVs, but no Life Orb) will deal ~72%-84% to min/min Pyroak. Furthermore, Pyroak's +1 Adamant max attack Life Orb Flare Blitz will deal ~89%-94% to min/min Stratagem, so Strata has a chance to switch in if there are no rocks out. (I lost all my actual calcs, but I know what they were.) Stratagem, however, is mostly walled by Revenankh. Stratagem's Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball does 40.3%-48% to 252 HP/56 SpD Careful Revenankh. All its other attacks will do little over half as much. Revenankh can then OHKO with Hammer Arm, or finish off a severely weakened Strata with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. I also tried this lead Syclant: Jolly@Focus Sash 4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe Taunt Spikes X-Scissor Ice Shard It taunts, then sets up one or two layers of Spikes. It doesn't do much else. You can give it special attacks, but...it will still do the exact same things while it's out. HP Grass will kill Swampert, HP Electric kills Gyarados and Ice beam might hurt the rare lead Stratagem enough that Revenankh's Shadow Sneak will kill it. However, in most cases, you should just focus on getting spikes up. The only leads I've actually faced with this guy are Swampert and Stratagem. Against Swampert, I can generally stop its rocks and then Spike twice. If Hydro Pump misses (or if Swampy doesn't carry a strong neutral move) then I get three layers up and laugh. If I see Strata, my first instinct is to bring in Revenankh. I don't know how it fares against most leads, since few people actually go on the CAP ladder. Needless to say, this set completely shuts down most Fidgit. And, needless to say, Your ability should be mountaineer. Last edited by Numerator; Jan 24th, 2010 at 1:19:59 AM. Reason: I forgot to include my testing experience for Syclant.

Jan 24th, 2010, 5:45:56 AM	#4
Zystral Time for a true display of skill. Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,392 You belong in a museum!	Been playing with DDOak and it is as insane as Dan says it is. Very fun. TrickSpecs Stratagem isn't as coolio as I'd hoped, but nevertheless still really fun to mess people up. Timid @ Choice Specs [Technician] 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP - Trick - Ancientpower - Earth Power - Giga Drain that's what I've been playing with, and while it lacks the long-end power of the Calm Minder, it's a lot more useful early game, especially being able to stop Blissey letting DDOak come in and set up. Magnet Rise + Technician seems fun, but it's hard to find space for it. __________________ GP Team - just ask. \| last.fm \| redditor \| steam \| #C&C, #mtg, #TCG oh look a userbar

Jan 24th, 2010, 11:58:55 AM	#6
Engineer Pikachu take into the air... Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6,139	For the DDOak using Wood Hammer on BulkyGyara, did you factor in Intimidate? __________________ [11:35] <Zarator> My friend always laugh at me for liking young girls [11:35] <Zarator> I am still within reasonableness^^ GP Team - VM for a check!

Jan 24th, 2010, 4:51:22 PM	#9
FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy ending. Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,041 Somewhere on the edge of the bell curve	DD Pyroak is absolutely monstrous. However, I use a slightly different set from what's been posted: Pyroak @ Leftovers Adamant 24 HP 252 ATK 232 SPE -Dragon Dance -Flare Blitz -Wood Hammer -Sleep Powder The EVs let it outrun up to base 110+ SPE Pokemon. Dragon Dance and the two STABs are obvious, but I quickly found that I couldn't cover everything I wanted to cover with the last move. Therefore, I decided to use Sleep Powder over a coverage move. This allows Pyroak to cripple one of its counters and either set up more Dragon Dances or attack a few mores times, thus hopefully beating it. This set has massive heatran problems though, as even if Heatran is asleep, Pyroak can't do a lot to it. But then, using Dragon Claw would get you walled by it too, and at least this way, you can at least cripple Heatran.

Jan 24th, 2010, 7:21:08 PM	#10
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	I've been ravaged something serious by a DDOak. With Sleep Powder, it reliably gets free turns to DD, and if it gets two (which with its bulk isn't terribly difficult), it completely smashes teams not carrying Heatran. I really don't want to have to bring a Heatran on every team just to deal with it. Also, the potential for it to run EQ to handle the likes of Heatran and Cyclohm is terrifying. The only things that can really break it offensively after a single DD are Strategem who hits for ~70% with Paleo Wave. Cyclohm can smash it if it can get in before the DD to Draco Meteor, but EQ simply demolishes Cyclohm, so..

Jan 24th, 2010, 8:28:26 PM	#11
HD Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,354	The thing about Oak is that you will always be able to beat it with at least one poke: if you run DClaw, you get fucked by Heatran. If you run EQ, you get fucked by Dragons. And hell, those two have high usages, so it generally isn't a problem. But people keep forgetting about Stone Edge, the happy medium. You take out weakened Heatran and also hit the Dragons. __________________ umbreon dan: i like huge dick <%billymills> is HD capt kirby? [16:47] <+Alchemator> imagining a claydol fapping is giving me great mirth [16:48] <+Alchemator> very erotic

Jan 25th, 2010, 1:14:09 AM	#12
Umbreon Dan Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 3,185 kiss my ass, this is a holy site.	Just an fyi to all of you using 252 / 252 Pyroak: putting the last four EVs into HP gives Pyroak 376 HP, which rounds up Stealth Rock damage. Unless you plan to make sure that Pyroak is never switching in to Stealth Rock, stick the last four into Defense instead. __________________ 9.9 dan likes to ramble <@Fatecrashers> im really gay <@Fatecrashers> and i might fart rainbows

Jan 25th, 2010, 6:47:22 PM	#15
Plus EAT A DICK Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 956 New Jersey	Damn, Revenankh is really fucking bulky. I hope we didn't make Rev too strong. Needless to say there are still ways to deal with it such as Argho and Skarm, but offensively it's a bit harder to keep up with the dude once he has a Bulk Up up his sleeve. It shrugs off Draco Meteors coming from Latias Mence and Cyclohm with a mere Rest and can do whatever it wants afterwards. As a result, I've been running stall again, and Revenankh really did get that much better with the revisions. But as always, time will tell if Revenankh really is too good. __________________

Jan 25th, 2010, 9:19:08 PM	#20
TekkenStorm Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 203 Stalking Hybrid	Feels good seeing Pyroak as a menace for the first time. He was always my favourite CAP, being also the time I joined in and I must say I waited for this moment a long time ago. I still remember when I spammed the server demanding a Pyroak revision and how he sucks while the mods telling me to shut up and that it will never going to happen, that he's fine the way he is. Hehe. Anyway, Pyroak is certainly powerful. I run the standard DD set with Sleep Powder as fourth move but I recently starting to notice this was not doing so well, there was a rise in stall teams. Spikes and SR were hurting badly Pyroak plus with Life Orb his stay on the field was pretty short lived. I will consider running a rapid spinner to counter this and use a more bulky Pyroak, similair to Bulky DD Gyarados which always did wonders for me.

Jan 26th, 2010, 10:11:06 AM	#24
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	Yeah, it's neutral, but Togekiss' bulk lets it take an unboosted Hammer Arm at only 33.0-38.9% (That's with 248 HP EVs, no Def EVs, and no nature boost). Even with SR, that fails to 2HKO a huge portion of the time. 32 Def EVs guarantee it can't 2HKO after SR. That's a great counter, if you ask me. (Especially with Roost in your arsenal) Last edited by Rising_Dusk; Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:26:26 AM.

Jan 26th, 2010, 2:55:46 PM	#25
Zach Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 782 "zach-" on irc	stall is extremely hard to pull off with the new cap revisions. First off, DDOak positively rapes CAP stall teams that look like: Lead Hippo/Pert, Blissey, Arghonaut, Reveankh, Fidgit, Skarmory. Everything bar Reveankh is hit for super effective damage, who is OHKOed by +1 LO Flare Blitz iirc. by the way; sleep powder + dragon dance is illegal!!! or at least it should be due to egg groups, but I've faced it on the ladder :(. Anyway, stall needs to run several checks to Pyroak to win. One option is Latias, although she must watch for Dragon Claw, and the omnipresent Colossoil. There's Cyclohm, who KOes with an LO Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock, but it must watch for Earthquake / Dragon Claw. There's Heatran, who can Fire Blast, but Heatran must watch for Flash Fire and Earthquake. Etc, etc.; there is no one check to Pyroak, because almost everything with a Choice Scarf is unable to OHKO it, and everything else is hit by one of its auxiliary moves. The best check afaik is Choice Scarf Togekiss. Togekiss outruns at +1, hits with STAB super effective Air Slash, hopefully for a flinch, and then again for the KO. Togekiss also takes on Reveankh, as talked about above, making it a very anti-metagame pokemon atm. It can also have some fun against stall by tricking its Scarf away. Earlier in the playtest when I was running stall I relied on a Scarf Kitsunoh + Scarf Cyclohm to take out Pyroak. With Stealth Rock and a little extra damage, possibly from Kitsunoh's ShadowStrike, Cyclohm's Draco Meteor was a KO. However, this was obviously a very poor way of dealing with the issue, and I eventually scrapped the team because I couldn't pass a ~1490ish cre. As far as other stall teams are concerned, I know Plus uses Toxic Spikes mainly for Pyroak, but otherwise I'm not sure how they are dealing with it. I think Pyroak is probably the most broken CAP as a result of revisions. Moving on to Colossoil: it has Fire Blast, Skarmory beware. Yeah, now that Colossoil has Fire Blast stall lost its 100% counter in Skarmory. This makes me think that it would be wise for Skarmory to run Brave Bird rather than Taunt (though most probably run the former anyway) so that it is easier to weaken Colossoil without resorting purely to entry hazard damage. When I ran stall, I used 202 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey, which took about ~60% from Adamant Life Orb Earthquake, so that I could stall Colossoil out with Life Orb damage, if need be. However, I believe Colossoil is not broken, it is just a top tier OU pokemon. note: i do realize, for the record, that colossoil did not receive fire blast as a result of cap revisions. one last thing: I just want to be clear that I think stall is very possible and viable to pull off, although the golden age of cap stall is over. edit: one more thing again: trick/choice ruins rev __________________ slowbros before ho-ohs Last edited by Zach; Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:56:34 PM.*