(Gen 2) Celebi listed as uber by accident? - Page 2

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 2:49:55 PM

It's not a presumption, it's fact. Like you said, you can win games through offense, can you through defense? You can merely not lose. And I'm not understanding why you're constantly bringing up Suicune. Lugia is better than Suicune, but what the hell does that prove in terms of it being better than Snorlax? Suicune is common, sure, but Snorlax IS GSC. This sounds like a case of you underrating Snorlax more than anything. In no way am I saying Lugia is bad, Lugia is a great Pokemon, Snorlax is just better.

@green_flash: I'm saying Ho-oh will not go a long way in terms of sweeping any decently built OU team. You're just arguing semantics. I wouldn't switch Ho-oh into any Raikou packing Thunder, nor T-tar, and as with the case of Suicune, it's more what-the-hell-am-I-trying-to-prove-and-where's-MY-Raikou? To humor you though, Suicune/Raikou/Snorlax, orrr y'know, just Snorlax. Furthermore, none of that disestablishes my claim that Ho-Oh does not make the top 6 list. Nor 7 I'd say. Nor 8. Probably fluctuating around the 10th in terms of sheer awesomeness by its lonesome. It doesn't help its case that it doesn't synergize particularly well with any of the current OU Pokemon. It's more of a standalone hard-hitter, which further drops its usability rank, probably into the upper teens or even 20s.

Ho-oh needs Cross Chop.

**gene** · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:07:33 PM

i'm bringing up suicune because suicune and lugia are similar. lugia and snorlax are not, and there's no reason to compare them.

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:11:16 PM

Lugia is better than Suicune.

Snorlax is better than Suicune.

Then via the transitive property, nothing is gained.

Are you at least denying the fact that Snorlax has had/would have a bigger impact on the OU environment than Lugia? If not, there's really nothing left to debate. You're just agreeing with me in a very peculiar, womanly way.

**gene** · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:19:53 PM

tiering pokemon that are not interchangeable does nothing at all. how can you even quantify which pokemon are "better" than others? dodrio is 100% superior to fearow, but how can you make a statement like "snorlax is better than suicune"?

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:31:37 PM

Because "impact", while still somewhat opinionated depending on context, is quantifiable. How can you possibly argue that Snorlax didn't have a bigger impact than Suicune?

And I think "impact" is a sufficient basis on which "better" can be argued.

cantab · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:43:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Because "impact", while still somewhat opinionated depending on context, is quantifiable

But "impact" on what? 'Impact' has to be impact on something. And impact implies change. You can't, for instance, talk about Snorlax's impact on the OU metagame, because Snorlax has always been OU. You could talk about the impact of someone coming up with a particular set, but that's gonna be of historical interest only anyway.

You could mean the impact of putting him on your team (replace another Poke with Snorlax, how does it change your team), or the impact he has upon the opponent in battle. Both of those would be relevant. But whatever you mean, to say 'impact' alone is meaningless.

Or perhaps 'effect' or 'influence' would be better words.

**gene** · Feb 28th, 2010, 3:43:24 PM

impact should be dealt with in terms of relativity when comparing pokemon of a similar niche. it isn't accurate to rank pokemon like you can rank characters in a fighting game.

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 4:30:20 PM

Quote:

You can't, for instance, talk about Snorlax's impact on the OU metagame, because Snorlax has always been OU.

Yes, yes can, that's exactly what I'm talking about. There's a discrepancy in your reasoning. Snorlax's status as an OU is irrelevant to its impact. Impact implies change, metagame implies change in game, how are the two NOT related? Snorlax's impact is quantifiable, you can go as far as to say GSC revolves around Snorlax. Suicune plays a critical side role, being that all encompassing wall, but Snorlax is the show, he's the star.

Influence? Could you guys not resort to arguing semantics?

Quote:

impact should be dealt with in terms of relativity when comparing pokemon of a similar niche.

Why is that? Comparisons can be drawn as long as your understanding of the game, and its encompassing members, is at the degree that I know you do. And you're still dodging the point. Are you willing to say, word for word, Suicune has had more effect on the game than Snorlax? No? Then why are you arguing, at least on the grounds of Suicune. You might have a better chance defending Lugia, but Suicune is just outclassed in every way.

cantab · Feb 28th, 2010, 5:06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Influence? Could you guys not resort to arguing semantics?

Semantics is all I'm arguing. I'm not sure the term 'impact' is suitable for what you mean.

If you're discussing things in general, you will probably be understood. But since you're actually claiming that 'impact' can be (even roughly) quantified, you need to better define 'impact', along with what is impacting on what.

Quote:

metagame implies change in game

Not to me it doesn't. Of course the term 'metagame' seems to have several meanings around here. I was using it in the meaning of being roughly synonymous with ruleset.

And I am arguing about semantics because the issue I see is about semantics, not because I have any issue with your assessment of any Pokemon in GSC.

I missed the mark a bit before though - the issue is in fact less with the use of the term 'impact', and more with what exactly you mean by it.

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 5:19:55 PM

The "metagame" is ever changing. Without change, it'd be a static game. Metagame refers to certain timesets, certain regions, and certain playstyles within said timeframes/regions. The metagame is adaptive, it's the act of counters and countering counters.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=metagame

Snorlax IS the metagame.

**gene** · Feb 28th, 2010, 5:23:30 PM

i'll "dodge" your point as you so put it as long as you keep comparing apples to oranges. there's a bit more subtlety to pokemon than just killing things, and suicune is only outclassed by snorlax in the realm of offensive power (which is largely irrelevant for its role).

Borat · Feb 28th, 2010, 5:46:16 PM

Then you can just as well argue that Suicune is better than Lugia because it's more resilient to water, dark, and rock attacks. Does that matter? But to humor you, Snorlax outclasses Suicune on the defensive end anyway, if you want to reduce him down to doing that.

Moving on. Snorlax is better than Lugia. Continue.

And subtlety is what I'm getting at. A pokemon doesn't have to flatout be a replacement in order for them to be comparative. You can weigh certain aspects against others and look at the Pokemon as the whole. That I know you're capable of doing. If I'm mistaken, then I'm just wasting my time here. You're not on the level I thought you were.

**PK Gaming** · Feb 28th, 2010, 6:01:20 PM

LK Snorlax???

Borat, would you make Snorlax Uber?

Lucalibur · Mar 21st, 2010, 3:18:07 PM

humm...guys...this was a celebi discussion right?not a lugia/ho-oh/snorlax one...can we get back to the subject or maybe make a theat for THIS talk?

Borat · Mar 21st, 2010, 4:42:04 PM

Why necropost?

Celebi is a boring topic. Depending on uber criteria, going by the classic definition, Celebi is uber. In a more practical sense, not really. Ultimately, not enough people play GSC for it to really matter.

Back to Ho-oh/Lugia/Snorlax.

And yes, I would make Snorlax uber from a completely neutral perspective.

Feb 28th, 2010, 3:07:33 PM	#27
gene GENE Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,715 Buffalo, NY	i'm bringing up suicune because suicune and lugia are similar. lugia and snorlax are not, and there's no reason to compare them. __________________ death to evan

Feb 28th, 2010, 3:19:53 PM	#29
gene GENE Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,715 Buffalo, NY	tiering pokemon that are not interchangeable does nothing at all. how can you even quantify which pokemon are "better" than others? dodrio is 100% superior to fearow, but how can you make a statement like "snorlax is better than suicune"? __________________ death to evan

Feb 28th, 2010, 3:43:24 PM	#32
gene GENE Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,715 Buffalo, NY	impact should be dealt with in terms of relativity when comparing pokemon of a similar niche. it isn't accurate to rank pokemon like you can rank characters in a fighting game. __________________ death to evan

Feb 28th, 2010, 5:23:30 PM	#36
gene GENE Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,715 Buffalo, NY	i'll "dodge" your point as you so put it as long as you keep comparing apples to oranges. there's a bit more subtlety to pokemon than just killing things, and suicune is only outclassed by snorlax in the realm of offensive power (which is largely irrelevant for its role). __________________ death to evan

Feb 28th, 2010, 5:46:16 PM	#37
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Then you can just as well argue that Suicune is better than Lugia because it's more resilient to water, dark, and rock attacks. Does that matter? But to humor you, Snorlax outclasses Suicune on the defensive end anyway, if you want to reduce him down to doing that. Moving on. Snorlax is better than Lugia. Continue. And subtlety is what I'm getting at. A pokemon doesn't have to flatout be a replacement in order for them to be comparative. You can weigh certain aspects against others and look at the Pokemon as the whole. That I know you're capable of doing. If I'm mistaken, then I'm just wasting my time here. You're not on the level I thought you were. Last edited by Borat; Mar 1st, 2010 at 3:08:38 PM.

Feb 28th, 2010, 2:49:55 PM	#26
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	It's not a presumption, it's fact. Like you said, you can win games through offense, can you through defense? You can merely not lose. And I'm not understanding why you're constantly bringing up Suicune. Lugia is better than Suicune, but what the hell does that prove in terms of it being better than Snorlax? Suicune is common, sure, but Snorlax IS GSC. This sounds like a case of you underrating Snorlax more than anything. In no way am I saying Lugia is bad, Lugia is a great Pokemon, Snorlax is just better. @green_flash: I'm saying Ho-oh will not go a long way in terms of sweeping any decently built OU team. You're just arguing semantics. I wouldn't switch Ho-oh into any Raikou packing Thunder, nor T-tar, and as with the case of Suicune, it's more what-the-hell-am-I-trying-to-prove-and-where's-MY-Raikou? To humor you though, Suicune/Raikou/Snorlax, orrr y'know, just Snorlax. Furthermore, none of that disestablishes my claim that Ho-Oh does not make the top 6 list. Nor 7 I'd say. Nor 8. Probably fluctuating around the 10th in terms of sheer awesomeness by its lonesome. It doesn't help its case that it doesn't synergize particularly well with any of the current OU Pokemon. It's more of a standalone hard-hitter, which further drops its usability rank, probably into the upper teens or even 20s. Ho-oh needs Cross Chop.

Feb 28th, 2010, 3:11:16 PM	#28
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Lugia is better than Suicune. Snorlax is better than Suicune. Then via the transitive property, nothing is gained. Are you at least denying the fact that Snorlax has had/would have a bigger impact on the OU environment than Lugia? If not, there's really nothing left to debate. You're just agreeing with me in a very peculiar, womanly way.

Feb 28th, 2010, 3:31:37 PM	#30
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Because "impact", while still somewhat opinionated depending on context, is quantifiable. How can you possibly argue that Snorlax didn't have a bigger impact than Suicune? And I think "impact" is a sufficient basis on which "better" can be argued.

Feb 28th, 2010, 5:19:55 PM	#35
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	The "metagame" is ever changing. Without change, it'd be a static game. Metagame refers to certain timesets, certain regions, and certain playstyles within said timeframes/regions. The metagame is adaptive, it's the act of counters and countering counters. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=metagame Snorlax IS the metagame.

Feb 28th, 2010, 6:01:20 PM	#38
PK Gaming Quiet Thunder God Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,527 Izanagi	LK Snorlax??? Borat, would you make Snorlax Uber? __________________

Mar 21st, 2010, 3:18:07 PM	#39
Lucalibur Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,091 WARE WA KURENAI NO WYVERN!	humm...guys...this was a celebi discussion right?not a lugia/ho-oh/snorlax one...can we get back to the subject or maybe make a theat for THIS talk? __________________ EmissaryofDarkness: is u only won beacuse u u use some strange ass tar EmissaryofDarkness: u do realize i am one of the best players on here EmissaryofDarkness: ur a terrible player luke EmissaryofDarkness: any one can win with the element of suprise

Mar 21st, 2010, 4:42:04 PM	#40
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Why necropost? Celebi is a boring topic. Depending on uber criteria, going by the classic definition, Celebi is uber. In a more practical sense, not really. Ultimately, not enough people play GSC for it to really matter. Back to Ho-oh/Lugia/Snorlax. And yes, I would make Snorlax uber from a completely neutral perspective.