Stall in LC

[eric the espeon]

Over the years of LC (yes, we've been around ~2 years now so I can say that!) the phrase "you can't stall in Little Cup" has been used a vast number of times, and many people have tried to prove it wrong with varying degrees of success. The closest thing to stall I've heard about doing really well are SS or hail + protect stall teams, or those that rely very heavily on immunities, rarely do teams which rely on bulk, resistances, and slowly wearing the opponents by countering opposing threats like a conventional stall team. I can see why this is, in LC there are quite a few sets that are practically impossible to outright counter and revenge killing is easy, but given that stall is a somewhat prevalent style of play in all other metagames it's interesting to see if it can ever fare well in LC.


I would like to hear about your experiences with LC stall (preferably not sub/protect style stalling), sets, combinations and teams that you've found effective or ineffective, and what you've seen work for other people along with any general thoughts on stall in LC.

[Black Buddha]

OK I am one of the numerous people who have gimmicked with stall before, and the closest I have ever come to are DeepSeaScale Clamperl and Stockpile LIleep. Most other uses would come under Sub/Protect/Hail Protect stall + priority.

Clamperl basically walls all special attackers barring stuff with a STAB SE attack like Chinchou Tbolt. Clamperl can also take weak unboosted physical hits. Resttalk Perl is usually the way to go, since it can actually pull it off decently. Under hail and possibly burn/toxic support, Clamperl can quickly stall stuff. Gligar can make a decent partner even under hail since it can take TBolts by goddamn CHinchou. It could work under sand as well, this way utilising the annoying Sub Roost Toxic sand evader set.

Lileep is in general makes my blood boil, so I'll leave that for someone else to explain

[Rolf]

I love my LC stall team from back in the Missy metagame. I'll just put it here first and say the purpose of each.

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5tALlpo0 (Hippopotas) (M) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 212 HP/20 Atk/52 Def/180 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Stockpile

Great early sr lead. Survives Buto's Waterfall to set up SR. Later it can set up a few Stockpiles and become very hard to take down, and can Slack Off any extra damage, then it can wear things down with sand + EQ.


RAge QuIT (Gligar) (M) @ Brightpowder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 236 HP/236 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Swagger

Heheheheheheheheheh. Sub on a switch and proceed to rape. Swagger the switch, they probably won't hit. EQ them, subbing and Roosting when needed, all the while while mounting steady ss damage. I guess this would fall under sub stalling, but it works.


UpSK1rT (Shroomish) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 196 HP/196 Def/116 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Spore
- Substitute/Snatch

One of the only "true" stall sets in LC imo. Grass types are seen so little, almost nothing is impervious to leech seed. Spore, Sub, Leech, and stall. You can also run Snatch if you don't want any nasty pokes setting up Substitutes or stats on you, which can be real annoying to this (especially sub).


M155yN0M0r3 (Munchlax) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 236 HP/196 Def/76 SDef
Brave nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
- Return
- Ice Punch

To take care of the ghosts that floated their butts around everywhere. So threatening that you can't just rely on other means to beat them - gotta go at them with PURSUIT.


Koffing (M) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP/112 Def/156 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Will-o-wisp
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt

A great check to Gligar. It can W-o-W them and cut attack power, then hit stuff with some pretty good coverage moves. Forces some switches, which is good.


RiNdOnYtE (Omanyte) (M) @ Rindo Berry
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 236 HP/196 Def/76 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Ancientpower
- Surf
- Spikes
- Protect

Spikes user. Toxic Spikes could also go in that spot. I find that random hp grasses are the bane to nyte here, so that's why we stick a berry on him to make him Rindonyte. (Shucanyte would also work well) Rock and Water is great coverage. Gets a boost to SpD due to sand which is nice. Protect for scouting and sand.

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That's the closest I could get to stall without losing more than 75% of the time. Hopefully it gives people some idea on how "LC stall" kind of works.Full on stall with one attack on each poke doesn't work. Nothing really can fully counter stuff in LC. Relying on entry hazard damage just doesn't cut it.

[matty]

Well speak of the devil, because I was just about to RMT on my Sand Storm team. Honestly though, the Hippo + Gligar combo is annoying and Omanyte is a beast in Sand as well. Lileep is a nice ending sweeper (barring crits) and then after that, you add support Pokes like Munchlax who take Ice and Fire well and things to stop major threats like Gligar or Machop and you have yourself a team.

TAY also runs a fairly mean Hail stall team. I don't remember the core but it revolves around a special Snover set and Tentacrool.


But other than Weather teams, there aren't any dedicated stall teams like there are in OU. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that baby pokes don't have the same stats that their parents do like for example Blissey.

[Dubulous]

Part of the reason that Weather-stall works in Little Cup is, I believe, because of the incorrect battle mechanics of Shoddy Battle. Currently, the mechanics are such that Oran Berry will not activate as a result of passive damage. Generally, when I was facing the SS teams made by Rolf and matty, I found that my chances of winning were significantly lower (i.e. non-existent) without the one-time-Recover that Oran assured me. I believe it was MGX who employed a similar style during Berry Juice testing, where he took advantage of WoW + Protect to get around Berry Juice. If the correct mechanics were implimented, however, that team would have been much easier to handle. Obviously, Berry Juice is a completely different monster than Oran Berry, but I believe that the principle still applies.

[Black Buddha]

In response to Dubulous, I admit I did utilise Hail + Seed + Toxic/Burn + Protect on my team to try and wear down the opponents without activating Berry Juice. Having priority helped loads as you could finish them off when they were in the kill zone to just quicken things up.

In general though for a defensive team looking to abuse passive damage with Protect, I must say that having a wide spread of priority moves on your team is a huge asset- things such as SSneak from Duskull, Ice Shard from Snover/Phanpy, and even possibly stuff like Quick Attack from a Gligar- any form of priority will help you take down your opponents. But the problem isthat priority attacks are pretty weak, so I would use it in conjunction with things such as Burn and Toxic spreading, as well as Spikestacking, all of which are a bit harder to achieve in Little Cup.

Another thing that defensive teams can center around is shuffling. In particular, my favourite variations are Yawn + Roar shuffling - Hippopotas for example, and Resttalk Quick Feet Teddiursa. Now I haven't used it before, but this was first posted by Numbuh214 on LCF. It was basically a max speed max HP Teddiursa with Rest / Sleep Talk / Roar. The idea was that 1/2 times you would whisk your opponent away with a Roar before they could do anything to you, thanks to SLeep Talk negating the negative priority of Roar, and Quick Feet putting Teddiursa at 21 speed.

[Rolf]

Taillow can run the same set but have a 2/3 chance of getting rid of the opponent, granted it isn't as bulky and hits 19 speed instead of 21. But the extra % still helps. (It gets Roar and Whirlwind iirc)

[Black Buddha]

Unfortunately, no, it can't, as Taillow does not get the move Roar. You are thinking about Swellow. Taillow does get Whirlwind though, but in this case I would much rather use Teddiursa due to the fact that he reaches 21 speed and is "bulkier".

[Dracoyoshi8]

"Lileep and Shroomish are one mon stall teams..."

In all seriousness, I think one of the reasons why stall wasn't prevalent in Little Cup till recently (even now it's still rare) was because Toxic Spikes are pretty much useless in Little Cup due to the fact that Croagunk is so common. This makes stalling fairly difficult. I think Stall in LC isn't exactly like the heavy stall seen in other tiers because of this, as well as the fact that even resisted attacks can get KOs easily. Stall seems to be consisted more of things like Annoyers (Sand Attack Gligar), SubSeeders (Shroomish) and/or Bulky Stat-Uppers (Lileep). There are Entry Hazard users of course, but Little Cup doesn't have things like Blissey / Chansey (Lickitung is the closest thing) or good phasers. I have used Spheal, and it just doesn't work like StallRein does.

Also, SandStall from my experience seems more effective than HailStall, due to Lileep, Gligar and Rock-types getting their Special Defense boosted. We also don't have many Snow Cloak abusers (lol swinub).

[Dubulous]

Neither Taillow nor Swellow get Roar. In fact, the only LC Eligible Pokemon that can learn both Roar and Whirwind is Cranidos, and quite frankly he doesn't have the girth to pull it off.

Teddiursa is probably the best user of Sleep Talk + Phazing Move because of it's ability Quick Feet.

[Ramblin Wreck]

I think the suckiness (for lack of a better word) of Leftovers in LC may have something to do with it. Oran Berry is hard to stall with since you only get its recovery once (and sometimes not at all, as others have pointed out). In a lot of analyses you'll see something about how lack of reliable recovery really hurts a certain Pokémon's walling ability; this is true for just about every Pokémon in LC but Munchlax.

[stickid]

Sandstorm really helps your ware down Pokés. I had a ST team with a Bronzor with Confuse Ray - to inflict more damage with the addition of the ST / Protect - for a free turn for your opponent to run down its HP by hitting itself and the ST damage / Psychic - for a good STAB'd actual attacking move / Earthquake - for coverage, for all those Pokés that resist or aren't effected by Psychic, but to be honest it's really just a filler move. This is able to ware down a lot of Pokés to the level they can be picked off easily by a Scarf'd Machop.

[Dracoyoshi8]

Originally Posted by Fat stickid

Sandstorm really helps your ware down Pokés. I had a ST team with a Bronzor with Confuse Ray - to iflict more damage with the addition of the ST / Protect - for a free turn for your opponent to run down its HP by hitting itself and the ST damage / Psychic - for a good STAB'd actual attacking move / Earthquake - for coverage, for all those Pokés that resist or aren't effected by Psychic, but to be honest it's really just a filler move. This is able to ware down a lot of Pokés to the level they can be picked off easily by a Scarf'd Machop.

Confuse Ray is illegal on Bronzor. Only Pokemon with no gender with moves that you can get from Third Generation games can have level up moves. Bronzor was introduced in DP, so it can't have any level up moves. This is the same reason Trace Porygon can't have Tri-Attack.

[stickid]

Originally Posted by Fat Dracoyoshi8

Confuse Ray is illegal on Bronzor. Only Pokemon with no gender with moves that you can get from Third Generation games can have level up moves. Bronzor was introduced in DP, so it can't have any level up moves. This is the same reason Trace Porygon can't have Tri-Attack.

Oh darn, that seemed like a good set on paper. Too bad ):

Here's another question, can you give them TM moves? Because I want to teach mine Flash Cannon, is that OK?

EDIT: I ask this because I was on a LC related forum and they did not allow this in the tournaments.

[Plopper]

You can use TMs and have egg moves/moves that are passed down by breeding, but lv-up moves that are learned later than Lv5 are banned.

[franky]

I'd like to bump this because stall seems to be more prominent now in LC cups and whatnot. I'd like to point out that the most important hazards to use in LC stall is Toxic Spikes -- even more important than the usual Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes makes your stalling process much faster. You need to rely on damaging the opponent indirectly since you're spamming Protect for the most part instead of attacking. If anyone wants to start LC stall, you need Toxic Spikes for staples.

1) Toxic Spikes
2) Pokemon with Recovery moves
3) Pack teams with Immunity
4) (in weakeo's case) Spam Protect

In my case though, I find RestTalk to be the superior option for Pokemon who lack the recovery moves such as Bronzor and Munchlax. It might seem absurd, but it is extremely useful with Toxic Spikes in play.

[sanjay120]

I don't stall much and I hardly ever play LC, but I have been using a Spore/Stun Spore/Protect/Leech Seed Shroomish @ Toxic Orb that has a few kills to its name. I'd imagine replacing Stun Spore with something else (Substitute?) would work well with Toxic Spikes.

[Heysup]

LC stall is now much easier to deal with because it is no longer surprising. That's the only thing it had to be honest....

Now I just wait for Bronzor to come in, set up Swords Dance with Krabby, and literally destroy every Pokemon on a stall team.

[TPM]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

LC stall is now much easier to deal with because it is no longer surprising. That's the only thing it had to be honest....

Now I just wait for Bronzor to come in, set up Swords Dance with Krabby, and literally destroy every Pokemon on a stall team.

Honestly I think the fact that Krabby destroys stall when it gets a chance to set up is irrelevant because it literally destroys everything when it gets the chance to set up (which is far too often D: ).
Oh and about the "surprising" part, when you see a Hippo lead you KNOW Lileep is coming, but it is still able to wreck. Lileep was never surprising.

[EpitomeOfFailure]

Originally Posted by Fat Dracoyoshi8

This is the same reason Trace Porygon can't have Tri-Attack.

Trace is a R/S ability. Did you mean Download Pory can't get Tri Attack?

[cim]

I used a stall team back years ago when I gave a shit about Little Cup. It actually wasn't all that bad mostly because people made their sweeper teams so incredibly suicidal. Basically any Pokemon would die to an SE attack, so your team just needed a Pokemon that wouldn't die to their attack that had an SE attack of its own plus Spikes and SR to get the upper hand. Probably wouldn't work now, I assume people are smarter, but back then it was just fine.

Some good starts: Munchlax, Makuhita, Omanyte...

oh also if you let anything set up on a stall team you're doing something terribly wrong

[Vader*]

Really, the only LC Stall that I've had issues with was Eo's, and that's only because he's an exceptional player. I've gotten into the habit of running Taunt leads, which are able to disrupt stall earlygame, allowing me to gain offensive momentum. Once Stall's on its toes, at least in my experience, it usually has a hard time coming back. In regards to Lileep, I've found the most effective Lileep set to be the Curse sweeper, rather than the Stockpile staller.

When I did run Stall, it was a very unorthodox team. I had two Spikers, two Toxic Spikers, two Toxickers and a Shuffler. It wasn't amazing, but it beat its fair share of top players. Omanyte was my lead, and it usually got 2 layers of Spikes up. In fact, the whole point of the team was to get up Spikes and just kind of pull a Cresselia and do nothing. Was it crude and redundant? Yes. Was it effective? Yes.

Just my two cents~