Research Week - Arceus

[Theorymon]

Introduction thread
Mew

Normally we would have a poll for this... but we feel that Arceus is a bit too important for that!

Now as you all know, Arceus is not available on the Shoddy ladder, due to it not being able to implement the EV restrictions. Because of this, you will have to test the sets on the simulator called Pokémon Online, which can be downloaded here.

I am still very bitter about Arceus's ev restrictions (the maximum of 100 evs per stat), but it's still very damn good! The purpose of this thread is to find as many viable Arceus sets as possible! Sure, this doesn't change the fact that Swords Dance ExtremeSpeed Arceus is fearsome, but with that insane movepool and stats, Arceus is sure as hell capable of much more than that!

This thread will stay open for two weeks at the least, maybe more depending on how much discussion is going on. All discussion on new sets, Arceus's impact on the metagame, and even failed sets are welcome here.

Alright now, lets get the party started!

Note: This thread will be heavily moderated. Do not use this as pc++ or test gimmick sets simply for the sake of testing. Obviously all sets will be newish, so the status of "gimmick" is subjective; we're hoping you all will not cross that line, but the decision of the moderators will be final in any case. If the moderators determine that a set is viable, it will be added to this post later!

[calze6]

The main problem is that there aren't many good uber players on PO. I might test this set on PO though:

Arceus @ Fist Plate
100HP/100Def/100SDef/100Spd/100SAtk
Modest Nature
-Judgement
-Ice beam/shadow ball
-Calm Mind
-Recover

Fighting in ubers practiacally has no weaknesses.

[shrang]

I don't know why Steel Arceus isn't a set on the analysis yet. At least (Before testing), it looks like a reasonable utility counter.

Arceus @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 100 HP/8 Atk/100 Def/100 SpA/100 SpD/100 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Ice Beam
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Focus Blast/Thunder

Not being able to outspeed Garchomp with only 100 Speed EVs really sucks, but you can still outspeed Mence, Palkia, Ray, etc. Steel type obviously means great resistances, especially to Dragon. Can counter Lati@s reasonably well, since you can just Calm Mind alongside it and strike it down eventually. I am very annoyed that Arceus can't learn Aura Sphere, so Focus Blast or Thunder would have to do.

[Jibaku*]

Tomorrow, I'm going to test a set I came up with over a year ago

Arceus @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: lol
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Roar
- Recover

Okay first of all, before you go -______- at Judgment Steel, let's remember that no Pokemon are immune to it and with STAB and Plate boost, it can still dent stuff even when resisted. Steel Judgment is also his strongest option vs Wobbuffet and Mewtwo, and a neutral hit is almost as powerful as an SE Ice Beam. Oh and it hits Tyranitar SE =)

Roar allows it to run over other Calm Minders and Bulk Up Dialga, and helps it scout for potential threats. Along the lines of that, it abuses entry hazards and can really cause a mess before it finally finds an opening to sweep with Calm Mind and Judgment Steel. Being immune to Toxic helps it immensely as well, and being a Steel type and having access to Recover grant it many, many opportunities to come in.

[mtr]

Why don't we organize private matches through IRC to find good players on shoddy, with the mutual agreement that both sides will use a 100 EV'd Arceus? It would be a lot easier to find good Ubers players that way.

Here's my Papermon'd set (untested)

Name: Stallbreaker
Arceus @ Toxic Plate
EVs: grrrrr
Nature: Calm
~ Perish Song
~ Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
~ Recover
~ Shadow Ball / Focus Blast

Worth it just for being a Poison-type with access to Perish Song. Many teams can't fit in Forretress, and this serves as a good check on stall teams, being able to absorb Toxic Spikes. Perish Song defeats last-Pokemon stat-uppers, while Recover is there for obvious reasons. You can choose between WoW and Toxic for status purposes, while the last moveslot is for coverage, depending on if your team hates Psychics or Darkrai/Tyranitar more.

EDIT: lol, 1234 posts

[reachzero]

Not surprisingly, I am finding that Timid Steel CM Arceus with CM/Recover/Judgment/Thunder is really hard to kill and generally tough (for my opponents) to deal with. I think any doubt in my mind that Arceus will be hands down the best Steel in Ubers even with its EVs restrictions is safely settled. Even things that theoretically should wall it, like Dialga, have real issues killing it unless they have Brick Break or Earthquake.

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat reachzero

Not surprisingly, I am finding that Timid Steel CM Arceus with CM/Recover/Judgment/Thunder is really hard to kill and generally tough (for my opponents) to deal with. I think any doubt in my mind that Arceus will be hands down the best Steel in Ubers even with its EVs restrictions is safely settled. Even things that theoretically should wall it, like Dialga, have real issues killing it unless they have Brick Break or Earthquake.

I've also been poking around with it without Expert Belt and Earthquake, Dialga will end up failing to take down TimSteelCM because you can stall out LO and Expert Belt BB doesn't do quite enough damage and lets you CM up to +6 between recovers.

Honestly, going Bold might be worth testing. Jolly Ray is the only notable thing you fail to outspeed since Palkia can't stop you unless its sunny and carrying Fire Blast. I'd have to see if the added physical bulk outweighs failing to outspeed Jolly Ray but Ray usually doesn't want to switch in since bluffing Timid is so easy and +1 Judgement 1hkos 97% of the time with SR up.

[Jibaku*]

Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that outrun you when Bold. Those include opposing Arceus, +Speed Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, and Giratina-O (though Tina-O can't really do much back, but the former three can be troublesome), and of course, Jolly Ray. Then there's Palkia and Salamence (the former is usually Scarfed but it's not like nonScarf ones don't exist).

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that outrun you when Bold. Those include opposing Arceus, +Speed Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, and Giratina-O (though Tina-O can't really do much back, but the former three can be troublesome), and of course, Jolly Ray. Then there's Palkia and Salamence (the former is usually Scarfed but it's not like nonScarf ones don't exist).

Groudon rarely(SD and some RPs) runs max speed these days but you should switch out anyway unless its in KO range for Judgement.
Assuming they come in on a Calm Mind, Kyogre needs to be using Choice Specs or Jolly CM to threaten you with Surf, you Thunder first on Kyogre, after SR damage the only thing SpecsOgre can do to 2hko is Surf letting you Recover off the damage if they opt for a different move. ResttalkCM is usually Modest, investing in HP over Speed so you 2hko before it gets enough boosts and Jolly CM Ogre dies to Thunder spam thanks to its lack of recovery moves. It does get a +2 Surf off which is painful but you still have enough HP/Bulk to Recover or switch out afterward and Recover it off later depending on what they switch in next.
Dialga needs Earthquake to threaten you but if you're Bold it can't 2hko you without a crit or LO(and high rolls), letting you CM/Recover 1st turn to check its set/Item and react accordingly.
Mence is notable since you 1hko it with Judgement 100% of the time with SR up.
Ho-Oh is also a threat but rarely runs max speed.

[Jibaku*]

Well if you think about it, in an Arceus metagame where people decide between +Speed or not, there's likely an increase in the Speed in base 90s to outrun neutral Arceus.

Kyogre is possibly the main reason Timid is likely to be a much better option. Specs Timid Kyogre may not be that common, but it's a big threat to neutral Speed Steelceus, so being able to destroy it before it destroys you is a big thing.

Dialga, if faster, can use LO Fire Blast in sunlight and tear you down through Calm Minds.

Honestly though I don't see any merits with Bold since it's still bulky enough to absorb Outrages, still weak to Earthquake and Close Combat (ps: Jolly Lucario outruns Bold Steelceus), and being outsped by Rayquaza just sucks since with +Speed, Arceus is a decent check to Swords Dance Rayquaza, dealing ~51%-60% with an unboosted Judgment (weaken it first a bit)

***

After a few rounds of testing, CM Steel Arceus has proven itself to be an excellent tank, using its many resistances to grab Calm Minds easily and actually dealing major damage with a rather-terrible monoSTAB. Being slower than Garchomp hurts majorly though. One thing in PO though is that Arceus takes 12.5% from stealth Rock for some reason...

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

One thing in PO though is that Arceus takes 12.5% from stealth Rock for some reason...

I think that's because PO changes its type after it switches in so it thinks its Normal for SR purposes then it changes to Steel.

[Poliwaggle]

If you deposit a pokemon into the PC it applies all EVs it gained, so if the fact that the only legal Arceus is level 100 is the reason for the maximum of 100 EVs it's not good enough, as the PC makes it possible to EV train at level 100 (you can test if you like).

[Wild Eep*]

Originally Posted by Fat Poliwaggle

If you deposit a pokemon into the PC it applies all EVs it gained, so if the fact that the only legal Arceus is level 100 is the reason for the maximum of 100 EVs it's not good enough, as the PC makes it possible to EV train at level 100 (you can test if you like).

I have tried this before, and it does not work.

In other news, I tried a Trick Room Arceus a while to no avail. It can't even underspeed base 90s that don't have speed EVs. D:

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat Poliwaggle

If you deposit a pokemon into the PC it applies all EVs it gained, so if the fact that the only legal Arceus is level 100 is the reason for the maximum of 100 EVs it's not good enough, as the PC makes it possible to EV train at level 100 (you can test if you like).

Which is why you're capped at 100 per stat. You need to gain XP to get EVs and you don't get XP at level 100 so you only get the 100 from the drugs.

[eric the espeon]

I've been playing around with the standard Extremekiller for a few weeks, and it is brilliant (especially under dual screens from deo-s or mewtwo, nothing is quite like setting up on a +2 Garchomp using Outrage). The only problems it seems to face are:
Giratina/-O with WoW that switch in straight away (you can get enough SDs to beat it down if it just has Outrage/Draco Meteor and you have screens). Those without WoW are still annoying, they take a chunk off, but not enough to stop you.
Scarf Dialga (nonscarf gets OHKOed by EQ, but even scarf can't do immense damage under screens).
Toxic Spikes. Very annoying little things.
Groudon (can EQ which stings even under screens, but you tend to beat it anyway.)

Overall, the most common decent counters seem to do little more than take a decent amount off Arceus while you are forced to set up a lot before you can actually beat them, then die. This makes me want to try a set along the lines of:

Arceus@Life Orb
- Swords Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
- Shadow Claw
- Recover
nature: Jolly

I've not built a team around it, but thinking about what threats the standard SDkiller had trouble with.. this thing could be a monster if you get it in under screens. It will have more trouble with Dialga, however under screens neither Outrage or Draco Meteor is a huge threat when you have recover, which should give enough time to get to +6 Attack at which point you can beat it down (ES 2KOes every set in the analysis with Silk Scarf). Forry can set up and Explode (and you only have a chance at 2HKOing at +6), however explosion fails to OHKO even if the screens go down so if you keep your health high, it can be setup bait. Giratina can avoid the 2HKO from +2 Shadow Claw, but +4 is guaranteed. Giratina-O is solidly OHKOed (other than the most physically bulky set) by +4 Shadow Claw, while it fails to do significant consistent damage back.


edit: as for the EVs issue, I just did some tests on a Lv. 100 Poke with cleared EVs. The stats are instantly recalculated as you use vitamins, and you can raise to a max of 100 EVs. From previous tests, I am fairly certain that the box trick itself does work (stats are recalculated when you withdraw, and discarded when you deposit), however you would not be able to test the box trick with a Lv. 100 Pokemon since it does not gain EXP in battle, and therefore does not gain EVs. In short, you can get 100 all Evs on Arceus. But not through the box trick.

[bojangles**]

Probably going to try a bulky Electric-type Arceus in the next couple days:

Arceus @ Thunder/Electric Plate (whatever its called)
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 100 HP/8 Atk/100 Def/100 SpA/100 SpD/100 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Ice Beam
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Judgment

Mono-electric gets really great coverage, only being shut down by Garchomp and Groudon, both of whom would not like taking a boosted Ice Beam. As far as I'm concerned, since 100 EVs are going into Arceus' defenses, we should take advantage of it and use Recover to make them bulky. Obviously, this is going to have to be paired with sometime that can take out Garchomp, since it still outspeeds you (silly 100 ev cap :/).

[PallyHeroRush52]

Electric Arceus is win

[Farewell]

Roceus@ Stone Plate
Timid
100 EVs to everything, 8 to Attack.

Calm Mind
Judgment
Earth Power
Recover

*Using this in Sandstorm really allows Roceus to Rock, as the SpD boost works with Calm Mind, and Judgement's 180 base Rock move dents Shaymin-S, Ho-oh, Lugia, Rayquaza, Salamence, Abamasnow, while Earth Power covers Dialga, Metagross, Jirachi, Heatran, etc.

With Quak-Edge (Ground/Rock) coverage in the form of Special Attack, and Judgement dealing about the same as Ice Beam would to Ray, Mence, Shaymin-S, and even more to Ho-oh & Lugia, this Arceus can dish out the damage.

Plus, it makes a great Ho-oh counter as it resists its STABs, without fearing Burn (Special Attacker).

On a sandstorm team with Tyranitar, Arceus, & Garchomp, you could really take advantage of the boosts the weather brings.

Also, Groudon could be used to remove the Water weakness leaving Roceus weak to Grass, Fighting, Steel, Ground, which, ironically makes Ho-oh a perfect partner, being able to switch into all of those moves with impunity; Ho-oh also benefits from Groudon's sun, due to removing its Water weakness and boosting its Fire attacks. Additionally, giving Roceus Flamethrower/Fire Blast over Recover would make Roceus able to KO Steel & Fighting types like Lucario, Heracross, Toxicroak, Forretress, Scizor, while gaining a boost to its Fire move.

[EpicTurtle]

I tried this set once and I thought it was okay... Not the best set but still...

Arceus @ Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: ........

Cosmic Power
Recover
Extreme Speed
Shadow Claw

Before you say how bad this set is mind you I tested it in wifi meaning that the meta game is kinda different. But I like it since I get a free switch in and start cosmic powering then well I just wall stuff =P

[ultimifier]

status or taunt kills you. And while status +taunt can stop a lot of variants of arceus, hitting with a +2 is different than hitting with a +1 in defences

[Rolf]

Maybe it's just the quality of the ladder on po but I'm having some really awesome results with:

Arceus@Spooky Plate
100 in everything but Attack - Timid
~ Cosmic Power
~ Judgement / Shadow Ball
~ Recover
~ Roar

Yeah, Toxic. Taunt doesn't really shut it down because the most common Taunt users are weak to Ghost. (Mewtwo and Deoxys) I've been using it as a spinblocker over giratina just because I hate how tina has no recovery. Roar is great for shuffling around, getting sr and spikes damage. You can then finish the team with either your STAB move of choice or just use scarf shaymin-s or something to beat the weakened team.

[STEELDRAGON]

I thought a gravity set might work out.

Arceus@ Dread Plate
Nature: Timid
Ability: Multitype
100 HP/8 Atk/100 Def/100 SpA/100 SpD/100 Spe
~Gravity
~Judgement
~Focus Blast
~Calm Mind/Thunder

It gets neutral coverage on just about anything, however, with out Thunder, It can't do much to Heracross, but that's not a very common threat. Gravity would make Focus blast and Thunder be 100% accurate under normal conditions, Judgment would destroy most of the psychic Ubers, and it can't get mirror coated by Wobbuffet. Focus Blast would destroy Dialgla and Darkrai, the few Ubers that would resist judgment. Thunder would give you more insurance against Ho-oh and Kyogre. No, this set isn't outclassed by darrai, because Arceus is much bulkier, and can learn Gravity


I also wanted to create a physical set that could do well, with Sunlight.

Arceus@ Flame Plate
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Multitype
100 HP/8 Atk/100 Def/100 SpA/100 SpD/100 Spe
~Swords Dance
~Stone Edge
~Earthquake/Brick Break
~Dragon Claw/X-Scissor/Shadow Claw

Too bad it doesn't get any notable Fire physical moves. You can freely Swords Dance against Giratina because WOW doesn't affect you. Stone Edge will destroy the flying types, easily, and Earthquake or Brick Break is mainly for the steel types. The last slot varies. X-scissor will destroy the Psychic types and Darkrai. Shadow claw will destroy the Giratina family and Dragon Claw helps against dragons. Kyogre is the bane of this set though.

I also thought up a special set, for the sunlight.

Arceus@ Flame Plate
Nature: Timid
Ability: Multitype
100 HP/8 Atk/100 Def/100 SpA/100 SpD/100 Spe
~Calm Mind
~Fire Blast/Judgment
~Spacial Rend
~Focus Blast/Thunder

Again, This set would get pawned by Kyogre. Only Heatran resists both Dragon and Fire, and Focus Blast takes care of that. With out Thunderbolt, Ho-oh, would become a problem because It could easily it away your Spacial Rend PP. To note, Grass Not, isn't on the set, because Fire blast in the sun, does more to Groudon. Hidden power rock, might go well with the set, to deal specifically with Ho-oh, but it wouldn't do much more than that.

[calze6]

There aren't enough good ubers players to even test arceus against and they don't follow the current metagame (I got psychic'd by a mewtwo with my arceus). Other than that, it seems the set is doing reasonably well although I will need more battles to test set up ability.

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat calze6

There aren't enough good ubers players to even test arceus against and they don't follow the current metagame (I got psychic'd by a mewtwo with my arceus). Other than that, it seems the set is doing reasonably well although I will need more battles to test set up ability.

Ya I've noticed that too. It makes testing a bit hard since you don't get to test much. I do like the fact I can call myself Shorts Kid with Youngster avatar and Shorts Kid quotes for everything.
Testing
Arceus@Fist Plate
EVs: guess
Jolly
Swords Dance
Brick Break
Dragon Claw
Recover

I'm trying to see if it can fit into a niche Extremespeed doesn't fill but its a bit hard since, ya, most players are quite bad(I've also seen random Psychics it made me sad). Right now all I can say is it has more survivability than Xspeed while keeping similar coverage.

[Hugendugen]

Originally Posted by Fat hhjj

Roceus@ Stone Plate
Timid
100 EVs to everything, 8 to Attack.

Calm Mind
Judgment
Earth Power
Recover

*Using this in Sandstorm really allows Roceus to Rock, as the SpD boost works with Calm Mind, and Judgement's 180 base Rock move dents Shaymin-S, Ho-oh, Lugia, Rayquaza, Salamence, Abamasnow, while Earth Power covers Dialga, Metagross, Jirachi, Heatran, etc.

With Quak-Edge (Ground/Rock) coverage in the form of Special Attack, and Judgement dealing about the same as Ice Beam would to Ray, Mence, Shaymin-S, and even more to Ho-oh & Lugia, this Arceus can dish out the damage.

Plus, it makes a great Ho-oh counter as it resists its STABs, without fearing Burn (Special Attacker).

On a sandstorm team with Tyranitar, Arceus, & Garchomp, you could really take advantage of the boosts the weather brings.

Also, Groudon could be used to remove the Water weakness leaving Roceus weak to Grass, Fighting, Steel, Ground, which, ironically makes Ho-oh a perfect partner, being able to switch into all of those moves with impunity; Ho-oh also benefits from Groudon's sun, due to removing its Water weakness and boosting its Fire attacks. Additionally, giving Roceus Flamethrower/Fire Blast over Recover would make Roceus able to KO Steel & Fighting types like Lucario, Heracross, Toxicroak, Forretress, Scizor, while gaining a boost to its Fire move.

The idea of a Stone Plate in Sandstorm could also work on a Bulk Up Arceus. It would act almost like a Cosmic Power Arceus except also boosting its offensive capabilities. I know that rock is a terrible defensive type but this combination of bulk in both defensive stats, good speed and powerful attacking force could prove a lethal mix. Although I haven't tested it yet or created a specific set, I'm gonna work on it to see if it's worth the effort.

What do you guys think?