Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - June 2010

[reachzero]

Originally Posted by Fat Professor Oak

Oh man. Heracross is seriously in danger of falling now. If I'm correct and we count Rotom-A as one Pokemon, Heracross has the lowest usage of all of the current OU Pokemon. I guess I better start thinking about making a UU team based around Heracross then =/

The next tiering update is in September, so you can take your time building that team, heh! I'm looking forward to finally seeing the long-heralded Heracross apocalypse, but it'll be a while yet before that is even possible.

[firecape]

Originally Posted by Fat STEELDRAGON

Yeah, I hope so, scizor has been #1 for a long time, and I think its about time for the "king" to get unseated. IMO, Heatran(besides Salamence) is the pokemon closest to being Uber. It is a great all round pokemon, the ulimate antimetagame pokemon.

I dont think Heatran is anywhere near to being uber, sure it works great in ubers as shown by many accomplished battlers, but I dont see how it is too good for OU seeing as it counters itself. Also, it cant run through its counters without using a set to specifically do that, bar Explosion.

ps: thanks for the stats Doug!

[SJCrew]

I hope Lucario goes down to #30 or something so everyone can stop preparing for him and I get more free sweeps.

And as usual Electivire keeps himself relatively high. I think there's a good reason for that too: he's very effective in mid/low ladder. I have an alt in the 1300s that allows me to use Evire for fun without losing CRE on my main account and the sweeper-infested newbie teams crumble to that guy's power and coverage. In essence, he really is what you might call a "noob Pokemon".

Careful, though: once you get to the 1400s, don't expect any more easy sweeps.

[WECAMEASROMANS]

oh shit heatran at #2....

[Eggbert]

If heracross falls, he will follow right in pz and cresselia's footsteps.

[STEELDRAGON]

Originally Posted by Fat firecape01

I dont think Heatran is anywhere near to being uber, sure it works great in ubers as shown by many accomplished battlers, but I dont see how it is too good for OU seeing as it counters itself. Also, it cant run through its counters without using a set to specifically do that, bar Explosion.

I would agree with you that Heatran isn't Uber at this point in time, But its the closest thing to an Uber, that is in the OU tier. There isn't a counter for all of Heatran's sets. For example blissey isn't a surefire counter because the metal sound set will utterly destroy her. Heatran is quite versatile, it can set Up SR, base 130 Sp. Atk, etc. The only "counter" that I foresee is Careful Tyrannitar, and even then, it can be beaten by the metal sound set, if it switches in on a metal sound. The scarf set, destroys many potential counters.

[firecape]

Originally Posted by Fat STEELDRAGON

I would agree with you that Heatran isn't Uber at this point in time, But its the closest thing to an Uber, that is in the OU tier. There isn't a counter for all of Heatran's sets. For example blissey isn't a surefire counter because the metal sound set will utterly destroy her. Heatran is quite versatile, it can set Up SR, base 130 Sp. Atk, etc. The only "counter" that I foresee is Careful Tyrannitar, and even then, it can be beaten by the metal sound set, if it switches in on a metal sound. The scarf set, destroys many potential counters.

Im afraid I have to Disagree. First of all we are on the stats thread so:

| Heatran | Move | Other (12) | < 5.6 |

Yeah Metal Sound is extremely uncommon, so "Everything is beaten by this set but nobody uses it" isn't really a viable arguement. Metal Sound is easily taken down by anything with 80+ Base Speed and Earthquake. Mamoswine, Flygon, Salamence, Gyarados, <Insert Pokemon on offensive team that knows Water/Fighting/Ground move with 80+ Base Speed>. Yeah so MS set doesn't really do much as long as you have a Pokemon with Earthquake (Which im pretty sure is one of, if not the, most common move). So please dont say a set that is rarely seen as a basis for a Pokemon being uber, especially when that set still falls flat to countless Pokemon.

Second, being "versitile" in no way makes a Pokemon uber. Honestly, Heatran are seen as either a Lead or some sort of attacker with Earth Power/Fire Blast/ <insert HP>/ Explosion/Dragon Pulse. Not very versitile, in my opinion, its just viable with different items. By the "versitile" arguement Jirachi, Celebi, Infernape and many others would be uber. Also, I fail to see how having 130 base special attack and having the move Stealth Rock is a valid arguement for versatile.

You only think there is one counter? Lets see a list: Suicune, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Flygon (somewhat), Blissey, some Starmie sets, Snorlax, Tyranitar. All of these wall you bar Explosion, and the HP you choose lets you deal with some, but not others.

Also, if you are going to keep your arguement up, please at least address the part of your quote I bolded, because that statement is so wrong. Thats like saying this Pokemon is uber because 1 Pokemon cannot wall every single one if its moves. That in no way makes a Pokemon uber. Most Pokemon have sets which force their way through normal counters, but lose to Pokemon they would normally take out. For instance, Spec Lucario. Im not trying to insult you here, but I fail to see how one can consider Heatran Uber...

[Shimrit As]

Heracross does have some interesting traits. It's typing is decent since it resists the common Dark/Fighting attack combination and can switch in on Earthquakes from weaker Pokemon. I notice its 80/75/95 defensive stats are pretty decent as well; they're like comparable to Starmie's lol. Guts is great, especially compared to stuff like Inner Focus.

Pairing him with a Machamp/Lucario/Infernape might be a good idea since Scarfed Close Combats can run through weakened teams.

[STEELDRAGON]

Originally Posted by Fat firecape01

Im afraid I have to Disagree. First of all we are on the stats thread so:




Yeah Metal Sound is extremely uncommon, so "Everything is beaten by this set but nobody uses it" isn't really a viable arguement. Metal Sound is easily taken down by anything with 80+ Base Speed and Earthquake. Mamoswine, Flygon, Salamence, Gyarados, <Insert Pokemon on offensive team that knows Water/Fighting/Ground move with 80+ Base Speed>. Yeah so MS set doesn't really do much as long as you have a Pokemon with Earthquake (Which im pretty sure is one of, if not the, most common move). So please dont say a set that is rarely seen as a basis for a Pokemon being uber, especially when that set still falls flat to countless Pokemon.

Second, being "versitile" in no way makes a Pokemon uber. Honestly, Heatran are seen as either a Lead or some sort of attacker with Earth Power/Fire Blast/ <insert HP>/ Explosion/Dragon Pulse. Not very versitile, in my opinion, its just viable with different items. By the "versitile" arguement Jirachi, Celebi, Infernape and many others would be uber. Also, I fail to see how having 130 base special attack and having the move Stealth Rock is a valid arguement for versatile.

You only think there is one counter? Lets see a list: Suicune, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Flygon (somewhat), Blissey, some Starmie sets, Snorlax, Tyranitar. All of these wall you bar Explosion, and the HP you choose lets you deal with some, but not others.

Also, if you are going to keep your arguement up, please at least address the part of your quote I bolded, because that statement is so wrong. Thats like saying this Pokemon is uber because 1 Pokemon cannot wall every single one if its moves. That in no way makes a Pokemon uber. Most Pokemon have sets which force their way through normal counters, but lose to Pokemon they would normally take out. For instance, Spec Lucario. Im not trying to insult you here, but I fail to see how one can consider Heatran Uber...

The Metal sound set does have counters, I agree, things faster and have Earthquake/close combat/waterfall/super effective move. Now, I will address some of the "counters" you have listed.
Suicune-The metal sound set handles this, after a Metal Sound, Hidden power Grass does 87-100% to a 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune with Life orb. Heatran many times will also a Passho berry to take a surf and KO back. Specially defensive sets can also take it on. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes, if it doesn’t have rest.
Vaporeon: Really the same as Suciune, however a little easier, as HP Grass will do slightly more. Specially defensive sets can also take it on. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.
Gyarados: Gets utterly crippled by WilloWisp, HP electric will OHKO the thing. This is one of the most difficult Pokemon to face though. Explosion is a last resort, though. Providing it switches in on a metal sound, it gets beaten, SR also hurts it.
Aerodactyl: Again, Willowisp will cripple the heck out of this Pokemon making it almost useless. To note, almost all Aerodactly are leads, 88.5% of the Aerodactly had Focus sash. It is very rare, outside the lead position. HP electric, will also give this Pokemon major hurt.
Flygon: Willowisp cripples it, to the point it’s almost useless, except for U-Turning/scouting. It has to be wary of switching on a dragon pulse. To note, a Willowisped EQ will not OHKO Heatran, and Heatran can do massive damage back with Dragon Pulse.
Blissey: Gets murdered by the Metal sound set, a timid Life Orb, Fireblast does 46%-54%, and 2KO after SR. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.
Starmie-Easily gets screwed over by Scarf sets, Again Metal sound makes sure HP grass/electric or even Fireblast OHKO, the Specially defensive sets can also take it on.
Snorlax-Woah, quite a hard one, Metal sound and Willowisp can make it life miserable, Explosion could be used a last ditch effort, if needed. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.
Tyranitar-Willowisp or Metal Sound sets cripple it to the point where its almost useless. Shuca berry variants can get a hit or two on it to. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.
Mamoswine-Well, this Pokemon can't safely switch in, Fireblast will easily OHKO. Other than that, Willwisp will cripple it.

Okay, now were getting to versatility. Heatran can fill numerous roles, it can be Revenge Killer, with Choice Scarf, it can be a reliable Phazer/Sleep Talker, it can be good lead, It can be a insanely powerful, attacker with choice specs, a great team supporter with the Heatrap set, made to specifically lure Pokemon in and KO them. Some of the numerous moves that it uses effectively are Stealth rock, Fire Blast/OverHeat/Lave Plume/Magma Storm, Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, Explosion, Roar, Torment, Taunt, Toxic, Substitute, the various Hidden powers, Willowisp, SolarBeam, Sleeptalk, rest, metal sound and protect. That Base 130 special is tied for highest out of all OU, (barring Porygon-Z, Alakazam, which are rarely seen anyway) Flash fire, and its good bulk provide it numerous opportunities to switch in. It is probably one of the best, if not the best Pokemon to force switches in OU. In terms of stats, it has a BST of 600, is tied highest for the highest in OU(barring Reggigas, Slaking who are rarely useful and are unseen.) Specs Lucario, is rarely seen, and however it can't switch Scarf Heatran easily OHKOes. Also a Heatran with 252HP/252 Sp. Def and a calm nature will survive a attack and OHKO right back, just to make a point. I never said that I thought Heatran was a Uber, I said I thought, excluding Salamence, Heatran is the Pokemon closest to being up to Uber standards. It may have numerous weaknesses, but the points I am trump that almost completely. It’s up to #2 on standard, #1 on suspect with an amazing 37.56% of teams using it, well above the #2, Rotom-A at 29.26%, and huge 8% difference, and 12% off of #3 Gyarados with 25.41%. Depending on the suspect tests, it may actually over take Scizor as OU's #1 Pokemon. Scizor has been #1 for almost 2 years, and for a couple months before Heatran was the #1 OU Pokemon. I think usage stats speak for their self; Heatran is one heck of a Pokemon.

[firecape]

Originally Posted by Fat STEELDRAGON

The Metal sound set does have counters, I agree, things faster and have Earthquake/close combat/waterfall/super effective move. Now, I will address some of the "counters" you have listed.
Suicune-The metal sound set handles this, after a Metal Sound, Hidden power Grass does 87-100% to a 252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune with Life orb. Heatran many times will also a Passho berry to take a surf and KO back. Specially defensive sets can also take it on. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes, if it doesn’t have rest. (I listed this for non MS-Tran...)
Vaporeon: Really the same as Suciune, however a little easier, as HP Grass will do slightly more. Specially defensive sets can also take it on. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes. (Ditto)
Gyarados: Gets utterly crippled by WilloWisp, HP electric will OHKO the thing. This is one of the most difficult Pokemon to face though. Explosion is a last resort, though. Providing it switches in on a metal sound, it gets beaten, SR also hurts it. (Once more...)
Aerodactyl: Again, Willowisp will cripple the heck out of this Pokemon making it almost useless. To note, almost all Aerodactly are leads, 88.5% of the Aerodactly had Focus sash. It is very rare, outside the lead position. HP electric, will also give this Pokemon major hurt.(Ok I listed this for MS, you MS on the switch and I EQ you, game over)
Flygon: Willowisp cripples it, to the point it’s almost useless, except for U-Turning/scouting. It has to be wary of switching on a dragon pulse. To note, a Willowisped EQ will not OHKO Heatran, and Heatran can do massive damage back with Dragon Pulse.(Once again I listed this for MS . Also, you never mentioned WoW in your original post, which is also a very rare move so my Heatran says hi)
Blissey: Gets murdered by the Metal sound set, a timid Life Orb, Fireblast does 46%-54%, and 2KO after SR. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.(Did not list this for MS)
Starmie-Easily gets screwed over by Scarf sets, Again Metal sound makes sure HP grass/electric or even Fireblast OHKO, the Specially defensive sets can also take it on.(Ok you MS on the switch, I Hydro Pump, even with Passho you take some decent damage as I outspeed)
Snorlax-Woah, quite a hard one, Metal sound and Willowisp can make it life miserable, Explosion could be used a last ditch effort, if needed. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes.(Huh...so now you are using MS and WoW. I never said these took care of MS these are for non MS)
Tyranitar-Willowisp or Metal Sound sets cripple it to the point where its almost useless. Shuca berry variants can get a hit or two on it to. Torment Tran can stall it out, with Toxic spikes. (did not list this to a counter to MS, maybe you Misunderstood...all of those Pokemon I listed in the counters paragraph were for normal attacking Heatran)
Mamoswine-Well, this Pokemon can't safely switch in, Fireblast will easily OHKO. Other than that, Willwisp will cripple it. (For MS you dont spam Fire Blast you start off with MS, Mamo comes in and EQs you as it outspeeds with Jolly)

Okay, now were getting to versatility. Heatran can fill numerous roles, it can be Revenge Killer, with Choice Scarf, it can be a reliable Phazer/Sleep Talker, it can be good lead, It can be a insanely powerful, attacker with choice specs, a great team supporter with the Heatrap set, made to specifically lure Pokemon in and KO them. Some of the numerous moves that it uses effectively are Stealth rock, Fire Blast/OverHeat/Lave Plume/Magma Storm, Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, Explosion, Roar, Torment, Taunt, Toxic, Substitute, the various Hidden powers, Willowisp, SolarBeam, Sleeptalk, rest, metal sound and protect. That Base 130 special is tied for highest out of all OU, (barring Porygon-Z, Alakazam, which are rarely seen anyway) Flash fire, and its good bulk provide it numerous opportunities to switch in. It is probably one of the best, if not the best Pokemon to force switches in OU. In terms of stats, it has a BST of 600, is tied highest for the highest in OU(barring Reggigas, Slaking who are rarely useful and are unseen.) Specs Lucario, is rarely seen, and however it can't switch Scarf Heatran easily OHKOes. Also a Heatran with 252HP/252 Sp. Def and a calm nature will survive a attack and OHKO right back, just to make a point. I never said that I thought Heatran was a Uber, I said I thought, excluding Salamence, Heatran is the Pokemon closest to being up to Uber standards. It may have numerous weaknesses, but the points I am trump that almost completely. It’s up to #2 on standard, #1 on suspect with an amazing 37.56% of teams using it, well above the #2, Rotom-A at 29.26%, and huge 8% difference, and 12% off of #3 Gyarados with 25.41%. Depending on the suspect tests, it may actually over take Scizor as OU's #1 Pokemon. Scizor has been #1 for almost 2 years, and for a couple months before Heatran was the #1 OU Pokemon. I think usage stats speak for their self; Heatran is one heck of a Pokemon.

Yes I do too

| Heatran | Move | Other (12) | < 5.6 |

Ya thats all of Will-o-Wisp and Metal Sound. All of the ways it muscles through its counters. So please dont say things like "It can cripple it with Metal Sound and Will-o-Wisp" as these are very rarely run, and you take the counters I list for non MS Heatran and vice versa and switch them. OK the premise of MS is you use MS as I swich to a counter so none of this "I hit you with Fire Blast on the switch in". Also, maybe I was wrong with the versatility part, but the thing is the counters are still relatively the same except for sets designed to beat Heatran's counters, which fail to beat other things that Heatran would normally kill. Ok im done with this arguement here, if you want send me a private message thats fine. This thread wasn't meant for a debate like this.

[SJCrew]

Heatran is not close to Uber. All of the ways it has to get past its counters aren't very practical otherwise and just gives it another list of things to worry about. That's why nobody runs WoW or Metal Sound. It's not sweeping teams, its main STAB has plenty of good resistances, and its counters are solid enough to switch in multiple times against all of its most common sets and beat it on every encounter. Plus, it is extremely easy to revenge, since most of OU is faster than it and it doesn't have a speed-boosting move.

Please tell me this is all a bad joke.

[jErry07]

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

If heracross falls, he will follow right in pz and cresselia's footsteps.

Ditto.

I'll not be surprised if there will be something like BL metagame?

[Ice-eyes]

That would be very interesting, actually.

A BL tourney would be cool.

[Shimrit As]

Heatran is a very reliable pokemon, but he does have several hard counters. Salamence is near impossible to switch into, because you have no way of determining its set (ie Mixed or DD or even Bulky DD) and even if you do you have to successfully predict its opening move. (Sending Jirachi into Fire Blast or Starmie into Draco Meteor sucks). On the other hand, Heatran is predominantly a special attacker so Vaporeon, Suicune, Tyranitar and the like all can switch in relatively safely. You don't find Heatran opening with HP Electric/Grass or Explosion most of the time.. Heatran has to rely on Explosion to muscle through "hard counters" such as Suicune and Porygon, which makes it much easier to handle/predict around.

[Angel Diva]

I like how someone talks about SpecsLucario and non-lead Aerodactyl, saying they're rarely seen, then goes on about how "incredible" MS-Tran is, when MS and WoW themselves are equally, if not even more rarely seen.

Almost all water types are safe switches because nobody cares about Metal Sound. You run Metal Sound then you lose coverage, or outright die to faster stuff.

[animenagai]

I'm very surprised that scizor's no.1. That thing's outdated imo, although still very viable.

[Adrialberto]

Originally Posted by Fat tinky

Heracross does have some interesting traits. It's typing is decent since it resists the common Dark/Fighting attack combination and can switch in on Earthquakes from weaker Pokemon. I notice its 80/75/95 defensive stats are pretty decent as well; they're like comparable to Starmie's lol. Guts is great, especially compared to stuff like Inner Focus.

Pairing him with a Machamp/Lucario/Infernape might be a good idea since Scarfed Close Combats can run through weakened teams.

I'm actually running him with Infernape, for a double Close Combat assault. Usually Infernape gets out first, does some stuff, weakens some checks, and then Scarf Heracross comes out and wrecks some havoc. The team also has Superpower Banded Dragonite, just in case of something going wrong, but that'll change soon.

[Squirrel.]

Scizor is getting passed by tran next monthhhhh

[Shimrit As]

Originally Posted by Fat FearItsSelf.

Scizor is getting passed by tran next monthhhhh

I think more Heatran -> more Salamence/Tyranitar/Blissey/Swampert -> more Scizor -> more Heatran. So IDK if things are really going to turn out as you have predicted. It's most likely that every user registers the fact that Heatran is so popular and pack a couple of checks and counters for it when building their teams.

[SJCrew]

I think the only reason Heracross is getting such low usage is that no one is abusing the CB set. Revenge killing is a terrible job for it, as stuff with priority like Lucario and Scizor, or simply inherently fast Pokemon do the job miles better. You don't waste 125 base att with STAB CC and Megahorn on a Choice Scarf, you slap a CB on it and break walls or gore anything brave enough to switch in on you. If you catch a stray status move on the switch-in, your opponent might as well ragequit.

[Rhys DeAnno]

The fact that a BL metagame seems interesting hints at the fact that BL is getting bloated again, both through the slow creeping down of power due to suspect testing in UU and the dribbles of OU's recent rejects. Most of the supposed overpowered pokes in BL like Cress actually have several checks also in BL: Honchkrow with its STAB Night Slash Sucker Punch and Pursuit for example isn't something Cress wants to see, nor does it want any part of switching into Shaymin Seed Flare or dealing with STABed, possibly specsed, Bug Buzzes from Yanmega.

Even Heracross sets run into some problems dealing with BL pokes. Choiced Heracross needs to be locked into Megahorn to dent Cress, and Guts is outrun and easily OKHOed by Staraptor, Yanmega, or Crobat.

Honestly the poke that would probably wreck UU the most at this point is Abomasnow with Snow Warning.

[Blue_Tornado]

44 | Smeargle | 39638 | 3.97
45 | Porygonz | 33173 | 3.32
47 | Heracross | 30174 | 3.02
48 | Cresselia | 29413 | 2.94

...is it finally time?

[MegaKick]

Thanks for the stats doug.
Looks like it's time for me to ladder like crazy the next 2 months to keep hera outa UU. Smeargle on the other hand would be fun, he can drop

[TubaKing]

Originally Posted by Fat Blue_Tornado

44 | Smeargle | 39638 | 3.97
45 | Porygonz | 33173 | 3.32
47 | Heracross | 30174 | 3.02
48 | Cresselia | 29413 | 2.94

...is it finally time?

Smeargle isn't going down anytime soon, if that's what you're implying.
Heracross in UU is a really scary prospect, but I don't think he's going to be going down, either. Heracross wrecks shit, even in OU.

[Jats605]

I can see Hera BL, but prlly not UU...