The Fall of Standard (and Propositions on how to fix it)

[UncleSam]

Rare, the idea of 1 wasn't to discourage new users from joining, it was to encourage expert players to play. Also, if vanilla games are forced down to Beginners level, there will be more Beginners games, and that solves the issue some people have been bringing up of "too few Beginner games". Also, I guess running two at a time is an option, although from what I've seen there aren't enough hosts or players for that. Still, if the vanilla Standard games get pushed down to Beginners, and the less ambitious Expert games are hosted as near-Expert (more than 10 reserves is close to Expert imo), there will be less backup in both Standard AND Expert, and people will be able to play with a variety of different player levels.

[Acklow]

I know I may not be saying too much in this comment, but what if the number of Beginner games was increased. You could have Beginners make their own mafia from there too. You could have the maximum of 2 Beginner's mafia games going at one time, with a requirement that limits the host to only one game of hosting. That way, beginners will join more beginner games because they usually join beginner games (like for example, some beginners joined A_G's NOC because there wasn't a Beginner game going on and they probably wanted to play). With more Beginner games going at one time (priority still exists), beginners have a smaller chance of joining Standard games because of their priority.

[Blue_Tornado]

Well Johann, that's the whole point. Why make "everyone's" game more enjoyable while hinreding your own when you can be off playing some standard mafia and improving your game and yours only? It doesn't really seem like it, but when you actually pause and take a look it's puse selfishness. We're all selfish at one point or another, and that's why I can't really blame them for caring for themselves, especially when they're usually rather new to the community so they could care more to themselves than to some unknown batch of players.

tl;dr I don't see much that can be done.

[UncleSam]

Originally Posted by Fat Blue_Tornado

Well Johann, that's the whole point. Why make "everyone's" game more enjoyable while hinreding your own when you can be off playing some standard mafia and improving your game and yours only? It doesn't really seem like it, but when you actually pause and take a look it's puse selfishness. We're all selfish at one point or another, and that's why I can't really blame them for caring for themselves, especially when they're usually rather new to the community so they could care more to themselves than to some unknown batch of players.

tl;dr I don't see much that can be done.

Read my second proposition....

[Aura Guardian]

Originally Posted by Fat vonFiedler

I've got a question as a guy who's been playing as long as Aura Guardian has been hosting. Why don't people like his games? Just hoping to gain some perspective as a soon to be Standard Host.

First one had a couple broken roles and a bit of balancing issues (Loyal were rather overpowered (2-BPV reverse martyr who can't be protected until both BPV's are used up), Protectors rather powerful (double rogue/tracker/watcher, role copier who copies and uses an ability at the same time and keeps an ability for two turns), and the Fast and Timely/Deathly were a bit weak (one inspector, moles had no other powers) albeit with a lynchpin with a (mostly) unblockable kill (Palkia and BPVs would survive)

Second one ... well, that was a blunder. Village was way too powerful.

Third one saw me completely randomizing the roles when I should have first reserved some roles (wolf, village thief) for experienced players and not let the wolf side with the village. Aso, I gave the village a bit too much inspecting power.

EDIT: just saying here, a thread for "roles NOT to use" might have it's uses: just find all the roles (Pokemon Lynchpin's Mesprit and Gallade) or role duos (Back to the Basic's Latias and Latios, though that's not as broken as Mesprit and Gallade and all of Ender's Second Game) or trios (looks at Ampharos) not to use.

[Rayquaza2233]

Originally Posted by Fat Aura Guardian

Third one saw me completely randomizing the roles when I should have first reserved some roles (wolf, village thief) for experienced players and not let the wolf side with the village. Aso, I gave the village a bit too much inspecting power.

-whistles-

Really, what I'd like to see is a bit more help in beginner games, whether it be faking role PMs or some tips on how to play. I went into that game having absolutely no battle plan, no fake role PM, and no clue.

[UncleSam]

Well tbh mistakes are expected in Beginner games. Also, I agree, there should be more Beginners Guides...which is why I have submitted a Fake Claiming guide for the next issue of the Smog. Hopefully, it will be approved and help Beginner mafia players out. If not, for whatever reason, remember that you can always ask non-players who you respect to help you out-the worst that can happen is they say they are too busy.

As for Aura_Guardian's suggestion, I thoroughly support it.

[Blue_Tornado]

yeah, when I said nothing to be done, I meant regarding what people want and how it comes against what other people want. Forcefully limiting is an option, albeit one that won't get people happy about it.

[Nilf]

People get better when they play with players better than them. There need to be more high level games so people a) get to play with better people and b) get the opportunity to gain reputation with better players (which would allow them to get into expert games etc).

I don't know how it works at the moment, but I think players should have to play x amount of standard games in between each expert game they play. While I can understand some good players don't want to play standard games, just expert, it would increase the level of experience in standard games, and also make expert games more accessible meaning more people can make the jump from standard to expert, becoming better players in the process.

[UncleSam]

That isn't true NJ. People get better as they play more mafia. Beginners would not pick up the game any faster if they were playing with Experts than with Beginners, unless they were teammates with those Expert players, in which case they would likely simply be ordered around. Besides, my proposals, particularly the third proposal, would ensure that, after a Beginner has established a solid base of knowledge about the game, that Beginner would be able to compete in Standard games like anyone else, and there would be more Expert players playing in Standard games, due to the ability to reserve more spots for higher profile Standard games.

I disagree with what you said, but also think that, given what you said, you should support these rules changes, particularly point 3. It would also be nice if a few more Expert players gave their opinions on this, as there are a lot of newer/middle players speaking up right now, and not many Experts. I have talked to a few of you on IRC, and thus far no one has objected to anything I posted, but it would be nice if active players could post their opinions, even if they are simply rehashes of what other players have already said.

[Acklow]

Once again, I'd like that there was a larger limit of Beginner games. Beginners usually like to get into several games because of that "Mafia Game Adrenaline Rush". So increasing the number of Beginner games available would decrease the number of Beginners playing Standard and even trying to get to Expert. Having, perhaps, a Badge of some sort that denotes an Expert player from a Beginner/Standard player would also make it harder for Beginners to gain the ability to join Expert games. Standard games would still have Beginners issues, but if Expert players advocated to beginners that they need that one game of Beginner mafia (or two), would decrease the chances that Beginners would join Standard. That certainly would help.

[UncleSam]

Originally Posted by Fat Acklow

Once again, I'd like that there was a larger limit of Beginner games. Beginners usually like to get into several games because of that "Mafia Game Adrenaline Rush". So increasing the number of Beginner games available would decrease the number of Beginners playing Standard and even trying to get to Expert. Having, perhaps, a Badge of some sort that denotes an Expert player from a Beginner/Standard player would also make it harder for Beginners to gain the ability to join Expert games. Standard games would still have Beginners issues, but if Expert players advocated to beginners that they need that one game of Beginner mafia (or two), would decrease the chances that Beginners would join Standard. That certainly would help.

I think this idea has been shot down in the past, but I'm not sure. Either way, I created this thread for slight alterations to the current set of rules, that the Mods of Circus can implement if they see fit. I don't think this fits in with that definition (which is a pretty broad definition).

Also, Expert players shouldn't need to "advocate" anything to Beginners; I really don't see the problem with making Beginners play one game to get used to things. I totally support increasing the limit of Beginner games, but the problem is there aren't that many of them lined up. My first proposition would fix that; anyone looking to host a vanilla game on, say, a series they love or something like that, could always host a Beginner's game. I don't see increasing the number of Beginner games to be a prime concern until there are enough Beginners games lined up, in short.

[blue_light]

There seems to be so many new people playing mafia games, I think that the system needs to change to 2 Beginner Games at a time and 2 Standard Games at a time. The current system has 3 Standard mafia games which I feel is too much when you consider the expert game, big mafia game, and beginner mafia that may also be running at the same time. The problem is that experts don't play Standard mafias anymore due to lack of interest, fear of getting namekilled, and general lack of quality in some of the games. Therefore there needs to be some better quality control on Standard games and lessening the amount of games at a time and having stricter regulations will help this.

The second thing that needs to be addressed is the large mass of beginners. There to be more beginner mafias and particularily ones of the partner variety. Obviously experienced mafia hosts want their game to be played and talked about with their peers so typically experienced mafia hosts will shy from hosting beginner games which leads to lesser quality hosts hosting beginner games and perhaps not giving the proper advice and guidance these new players need.

I do have a partner/beginner mafia in the works that will use beginner players as aliases for more experienced players which will of course lead to forced interaction and hopefully tutelage.

[Spiffy]

I think the reason why there shouldn't be two Beginner Games is because not many hosts are very interested in hosting a bland 2 vs. 1 Mafia. As of right now, there are currently no Beginner Games that are being played.

[Upside]

Originally Posted by Fat Spiffy

I think the reason why there shouldn't be two Beginner Games is because not many hosts are very interested in hosting a bland 2 vs. 1 Mafia. As of right now, there are currently no Beginner Games that are being played.

Which, again, leads us to the suggestion that we could potentially expand beginner games to a broader category, rather than 2v1 with boring roles. You just have to make sure you don't put in anything too "experimental." For example, at this point in time, I should probably play a few more beginner games. Will I play in another beginner game? I'll probably make myself, but I sure won't want to play, and there are people more selfish than me who will just jump straight into standard mafia.

That being said, I'd be more than happy to help anyone with designing an "interesting" beginner's games if you want to prove that it can be done. I'd do it myself, but I don't feel comfortable, due to my low level of experience.

EDIT: Just thought of this, but who designs a game with the thought of "Hey! I want to make a "boring" game designed to be extremely easy to play to help out some of the new guys!" Maybe some people, but definitely not many. If people had the freedom to try out a few different concepts in their beginner games, maybe more people would be willing to play/host them. For example, I think that the recent Inventions Mafia could've easily worked as a beginner game with just a few changes that would've hardly affected the game. Obviously some people are going to think that the "ammo" concept is too advanced for beginners, but I digress.

[Spiffy]

Ok I'm going to pop in and actually say something contributional. After my first mafia game, which was Awesomeness Mafia, a standard game. When I heard about the signips for Back to the Basics, I was pretty reluctant to join at first. However, I thought a bit for a second. I'm pretty sure that I have a long way to go before I can actually play with some of the more expert players (my thoughts became a reality when Accent almost moles the fuck out of me in Fuck the Mafia), so I guess I'll join this beginner's game to learn a thing or two, as well as get out of everyone's hair. :P

My point is that if I can make an unselfish gesture, I see no reason why everyone else can't play a beginner's game or two before officially moving up to standard. This could be entirely reliant on the players personality and selfishness, and I understand that there are no beginner games out right now, but when signups for a beginner's game do sprout up I expect some of you newer players to sign up, even if you've already played in a standard game.

A little more into the history of Spiffy, I played the game, became village leader, and completely swept the mafia (what wolf?). That is when I realized that moving up to standard was probably a good idea at that point. This brings me to the next part of my "plan" if you want to kill it that. I think that you should only move up to Standard if you did something significant in the game that helped your faction immensley. Now significant is in the eyes of beholder. Maybe in the postgame the host can mention players who did well in the game and say if they are ready to move up to Standard.

Comments are welcome for this plan thing. :)

[auramaster]

Again, I think making all beginners play in Beginner games is a great idea on paper, but there's not enough Beginner games to do it. If you've got a problem with Beginners messing up Standard games, host a Beginners game so they have something else to do. It's the only solution, besides making them wait a month (or 2, with Cyclone) to try something. Also, it's not so much selfishness as overconfidence that they can play without messing a game up.

And because it hasn't been talked about much, look back through Upside's post. I agree with it 100%, allowing more variety would help get more people interested in hosting.