Conventions for Tier Prefixes of Set Names

Rising_Dusk · Sep 6th, 2010, 3:10:45 PM

Hi C&C:

I am making this thread because there is a bit of chaos on the site about how this is supposed to be done. Let's say a Pokemon, such as Kabutops, has a UU, OU, and Uber analysis. We need to know how to prefix these set names reliably so that they are consistent throughout the website. Right now, we kind of just "do stuff" and no one is the wiser. I don't think that's good enough.

I am proposing the following conventions:

The prefixes for tiers should be as follows.

OU
Uber
UU
LC

These are the four currently officially-recognized metagames. These are how they should be prefixed, I feel. Currently, a few Pokemon that have LC + UU analyses (Snover, for instance) use "Little Cup" as the prefix, which is both clunky and inconsistent. We do not prefix UU analysis sets with "Underused" nor do we use "Overused" for OU, so we should not use "Little Cup" for LC. This is also how they are displayed on the /dp/tier/ list, which is pretty much absolute when it comes to this sort of thing. (LC isn't currently listed there, but it will be when an admin does it)

The order that sets should be listed is based on the list above, but their primary tier should have its sets listed first

So let's look at Kabutops, for instance. UU would come first because that is its tier, which is what most people are probably thinking about when wanting to use it. After that, it would go "OU" and then "Uber", like how it currently is. LC Pokemon are different, however, especially in the case of something like Snover or Hippopotas. They technically "belong" to the LC tier, so the LC analysis should come first, then UU after.

All sets on Pokemon with analyses for multiple tiers must be prefixed accordingly

This is a pretty radical change from what we currently do, but I think it is the obvious and proper solution. Ludicolo does this perfectly, and look how orderly and easy to follow it is. Kabutops, on the other hand, does not do this. Just look how messy that is. I do think there should be one exception to this rule, however, and that is...

Because the three primary tiers of Smogon are formed around the Standard (OU) tier, OU Pokemon with OU sets and Uber analyses should not have their OU sets prefixed

Why, you might ask? Anything banned in OU goes to Uber, and anything not used enough in OU goes to UU. For this reason, OU is the standard metagame, and is naturally "assumed" when you look at an OU Pokemon's analysis. On these Pokemon, which Lucario is a good example of, you naturally expect all main sets to be OU and that the Uber sets will be prefixed accordingly. We already do this to a major extent, but it is important to list here.

Some people might think that the "main tier" for a Pokemon should never have to be prefixed as an extension to this rule. So, for instance, Kabutops wouldn't need its UU sets prefixed with UU. I disagree with this, however. I feel that because OU is the standard tier, its Pokemon are the only ones whose primary sets are "obviously OU." UU Pokemon do not necessarily work that way. Sometimes people assume (incorrectly), that UU sets are intended for use in OU because they are not currently prefixed. Sure, the intelligent user can figure it out, but we all know that not everyone who uses the sets on-site could be called the brightest light on the runway.

Anyway, what do you guys think of my propositions for these conventions? Do you have other suggestions? Feel free to chime in however you want, as this is something that's important for us to decide and document.

On-Site Pokemon Affected by This:

Clamperl: UU / LC
Exeggutor: UU / Uber
Floatzel: UU / OU
Magmortar: (Listed UU Prefix)
Magneton: (Listed UU Prefix)
Nidoqueen: UU / OU
Quagsire: UU / Uber
Qwilfish: UU / OU
Shiftry: UU / Uber
Walrein: UU / OU

Blissey: OU / Uber
Celebi: OU / Uber
Gengar: OU / Uber
Infernape: OU / Uber
Kingdra: OU / Uber
Lucario: OU / Uber
Magnezone: OU / Uber
Ninjask: OU / Uber
Scizor: OU / Uber
Smeargle: OU / Uber
Cresselia: OU / Uber
Froslass: OU / Uber

Aggron: UU / OU
Donphan: UU / OU
Drapion: UU / OU
Dugtrio: UU / OU
Kabutops: UU / OU / Uber
Lanturn: UU / OU
Ludicolo: UU / OU / Uber
Mesprit: UU / OU
Milotic: UU / OU
Moltres: UU / OU
Nidoking: UU / OU
Registeel: UU / OU
Rhyperior: UU / OU
Sceptile: UU / OU
Slowbro: UU / OU
Uxie: UU / Uber
Weezing: UU / OU

firecape · Sep 6th, 2010, 3:54:22 PM

Here's all of the OU, BL, and UU Pokemon with sets meant for other tiers (as promised on IRC) I may have missed some that didn't state somewhere the set was meant for another tier, but I think I got most-if not all-of them.

The following OU Pokemon have Uber sets: Blissey, Gengar, Infernape, Kingdra, Lucario, Magnezone, Ninjask, Scizor

All of the BL Pokemon are either out of date or have sets intended for OU, Frosslass and Cresselia have Uber sets.

The following UU Pokemon have OU/Uber sets: Aggron, Donphan, Drapion’s specially defensive set seems to be designed for OU, Dugtrio (this analysis is just…wtf?), Kabutops (OU and Ubers), Lanturn, Ludicolo (OU and Ubers), Mesprit, Milotic, Moltres, Nidoking (this ones kinda weird), Registeel, Rhyperior, Sceptile, Slowbro, Uxie (Ubers but not OU yet), Weezing

Alan · Sep 7th, 2010, 5:31:58 PM

One thing that isn't addressed (not thing big of a deal) but would BL Pokemon have OU tags in front of their sets designed for OU? One can easily infer that a BL Pokemon would be used in OU primarily, and it seems rather silly to have OU tags on it. Obviously Uber tags would still be needed (if any BL pokemon have uber analsysises, im not sure and i dont care that much to check so 9.9).

I wanted to clarify something though:

Quote:

Some people might think that the "main tier" for a Pokemon should never have to be prefixed as an extension to this rule. So, for instance, Kabutops wouldn't need its UU sets prefixed with UU. I disagree with this, however.

You are saying that, for instance, Kabutops' lead set would require a UU prefix for it? I think that is rather condecending (condesending?) to the userbase on this sight. While I know you had no malicous intentions much of the user base is aware that UU pokemon are for the UU tier. It makes sense and (imo) looks better if we leave UU sets for UU pokemon alone without tags, but give them OU tags. Especially since, odds are, the majority of usage for that pokemon will be in UU, and not OU. I support the idea of giving Ubers sets and OU sets (for UU mons) tags though because it does make it easier to search through.

Rising_Dusk · Sep 7th, 2010, 8:01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Alan

One thing that isn't addressed (not thing big of a deal) but would BL Pokemon have OU tags in front of their sets designed for OU? One can easily infer that a BL Pokemon would be used in OU primarily, and it seems rather silly to have OU tags on it. Obviously Uber tags would still be needed (if any BL pokemon have uber analsysises, im not sure and i dont care that much to check so 9.9).

Yeah, BL Pokemon have their analyses written exclusively for OU, so they will not need their set names prefixed with OU. Once BL, they are treated as OU Pokemon, just not used enough to be marked OU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Alan

You are saying that, for instance, Kabutops' lead set would require a UU prefix for it? I think that is rather condecending (condesending?) to the userbase on this sight. While I know you had no malicous intentions much of the user base is aware that UU pokemon are for the UU tier. It makes sense and (imo) looks better if we leave UU sets for UU pokemon alone without tags, but give them OU tags. Especially since, odds are, the majority of usage for that pokemon will be in UU, and not OU. I support the idea of giving Ubers sets and OU sets (for UU mons) tags though because it does make it easier to search through.

I expected a lot of people would have this opinion, which is why I wanted discussion on the topic. I can honestly see it going either way, and I don't mind either. If many people agree with you, I feel that that's the way we should do it. PS: I do not intend any condescension with my OP.

whistle · Sep 8th, 2010, 11:13:08 AM

yeah i feel we should only prefix sets if they are designed to be used in a tier that isn't the pokemon's main tier. you say that people will assume sets to be ou sets because "ou is standard" but i think i'm not sure how likely that is. when i first started i sure didn't look through uu pokemon to find stuff to use in ou -- when i read uu analyses it was obvious by the tier designation that those were uu analyses. also it looks kinda dumb... tbh

since im already doing the speed sweep i can fit this in if we get to a decision relatively soon

Rising_Dusk · Sep 8th, 2010, 1:54:27 PM

That sounds good, then. We should order the sets in analyses like this:

Pokemon's Primary Tier
OU
Uber
UU
LC

For purposes of this convention, we'll treat NU Pokemon as UU Pokemon and BL Pokemon as OU Pokemon.

We'll also adjust so that:

Sets in a Pokemon's primary tier do not need to be prefixed.

This seems to match peoples' opinions on IRC and who have posted here.

whistle · Sep 9th, 2010, 1:06:55 PM

went through the list in the OP -- if they're not mentioned here it means the analysis is fine

the list, at the time I went through it (in case it changes)

added OU tags to two Exeggutor sets that had OU comments
Floatzel has no OU sets or OU Team Options/Counters... why does it have an OU overview?
added OU tags to two Magmortar sets that had OU comments. both of these are also viable in UU but they're in the UU update...
deleted UU prefix from both Magneton sets. also removed all mentions of Yanmega/Roserade/Crobat as they are now banned from UU, and changed the EVs on the Special Sweeper since they were previously optimized for Roserade.
added OU tags to Nidoqueen's OU sets; going to grammar check the UU update since it's horribly outdated. swapped ordering so UU sets are first.
changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Quagsire's Uber sets/sections
changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Shiftry's Uber sets/sections... man its UU stuff is so old
Walrein's Stallrein set is written for OU but unlike with Magmortar I didn't label it OU because references to OU Pokemon aren't EVERYWHERE and come on it's Stallrein that's the primary UU set as well
changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Kingdra. needs an Overview
changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Froslass
for some reason Donphan's OU sets were tagged "OU - Set Name" so I just changed it to "OU Set Name"
Drapion's utility special defender set is mostly written for OU with a very outdated UU reference so I just made it OU
Dugtrio was kinda weird cause it had UU and OU tags within a set. since the sets are kinda different I separated them into separate sets and rewrote some stuff to make it make sense. removed raikou mentions. the Scarf set still has mixed comments but I didn't change that because I don't think it's worth it because the set sucks in UU (should just remove it, a QC duty)
I added Mesprit tags yesterday when I was doing speed creep :p
Uxie's TrickScarf is mostly OU with two sentences tacked on at the end for UU so I labeled it OU

Rising_Dusk · Sep 9th, 2010, 5:25:13 PM

Good job on that! I fixed up Floatzel, there's no reason for it to have an OU overview with no OU sets. That it lacks OU sets and overviews suggests how outclassed it is in the tier.

Everything else looks great.

Sep 6th, 2010, 3:10:45 PM	#1
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	Conventions for Tier Prefixes of Set Names Hi C&C: I am making this thread because there is a bit of chaos on the site about how this is supposed to be done. Let's say a Pokemon, such as Kabutops, has a UU, OU, and Uber analysis. We need to know how to prefix these set names reliably so that they are consistent throughout the website. Right now, we kind of just "do stuff" and no one is the wiser. I don't think that's good enough. I am proposing the following conventions: The prefixes for tiers should be as follows. OU Uber UU LC These are the four currently officially-recognized metagames. These are how they should be prefixed, I feel. Currently, a few Pokemon that have LC + UU analyses (Snover, for instance) use "Little Cup" as the prefix, which is both clunky and inconsistent. We do not prefix UU analysis sets with "Underused" nor do we use "Overused" for OU, so we should not use "Little Cup" for LC. This is also how they are displayed on the /dp/tier/ list, which is pretty much absolute when it comes to this sort of thing. (LC isn't currently listed there, but it will be when an admin does it) The order that sets should be listed is based on the list above, but their primary tier should have its sets listed first So let's look at Kabutops, for instance. UU would come first because that is its tier, which is what most people are probably thinking about when wanting to use it. After that, it would go "OU" and then "Uber", like how it currently is. LC Pokemon are different, however, especially in the case of something like Snover or Hippopotas. They technically "belong" to the LC tier, so the LC analysis should come first, then UU after. All sets on Pokemon with analyses for multiple tiers must be prefixed accordingly This is a pretty radical change from what we currently do, but I think it is the obvious and proper solution. Ludicolo does this perfectly, and look how orderly and easy to follow it is. Kabutops, on the other hand, does not do this. Just look how messy that is. I do think there should be one exception to this rule, however, and that is... Because the three primary tiers of Smogon are formed around the Standard (OU) tier, OU Pokemon with OU sets and Uber analyses should not have their OU sets prefixed Why, you might ask? Anything banned in OU goes to Uber, and anything not used enough in OU goes to UU. For this reason, OU is the standard metagame, and is naturally "assumed" when you look at an OU Pokemon's analysis. On these Pokemon, which Lucario is a good example of, you naturally expect all main sets to be OU and that the Uber sets will be prefixed accordingly. We already do this to a major extent, but it is important to list here. Some people might think that the "main tier" for a Pokemon should never have to be prefixed as an extension to this rule. So, for instance, Kabutops wouldn't need its UU sets prefixed with UU. I disagree with this, however. I feel that because OU is the standard tier, its Pokemon are the only ones whose primary sets are "obviously OU." UU Pokemon do not necessarily work that way. Sometimes people assume (incorrectly), that UU sets are intended for use in OU because they are not currently prefixed. Sure, the intelligent user can figure it out, but we all know that not everyone who uses the sets on-site could be called the brightest light on the runway. Anyway, what do you guys think of my propositions for these conventions? Do you have other suggestions? Feel free to chime in however you want, as this is something that's important for us to decide and document. On-Site Pokemon Affected by This: Clamperl: UU / LC Exeggutor: UU / Uber Floatzel: UU / OU Magmortar: (Listed UU Prefix) Magneton: (Listed UU Prefix) Nidoqueen: UU / OU Quagsire: UU / Uber Qwilfish: UU / OU Shiftry: UU / Uber Walrein: UU / OU Blissey: OU / Uber Celebi: OU / Uber Gengar: OU / Uber Infernape: OU / Uber Kingdra: OU / Uber Lucario: OU / Uber Magnezone: OU / Uber Ninjask: OU / Uber Scizor: OU / Uber Smeargle: OU / Uber Cresselia: OU / Uber Froslass: OU / Uber Aggron: UU / OU Donphan: UU / OU Drapion: UU / OU Dugtrio: UU / OU Kabutops: UU / OU / Uber Lanturn: UU / OU Ludicolo: UU / OU / Uber Mesprit: UU / OU Milotic: UU / OU Moltres: UU / OU Nidoking: UU / OU Registeel: UU / OU Rhyperior: UU / OU Sceptile: UU / OU Slowbro: UU / OU Uxie: UU / Uber Weezing: UU / OU Last edited by Rising_Dusk; Sep 7th, 2010 at 10:20:12 AM.

Sep 6th, 2010, 3:54:22 PM	#2
firecape This is the end... Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,048 This storys old, but it goes on and on until we disappear	Here's all of the OU, BL, and UU Pokemon with sets meant for other tiers (as promised on IRC) I may have missed some that didn't state somewhere the set was meant for another tier, but I think I got most-if not all-of them. The following OU Pokemon have Uber sets: Blissey, Gengar, Infernape, Kingdra, Lucario, Magnezone, Ninjask, Scizor All of the BL Pokemon are either out of date or have sets intended for OU, Frosslass and Cresselia have Uber sets. The following UU Pokemon have OU/Uber sets: Aggron, Donphan, Drapion’s specially defensive set seems to be designed for OU, Dugtrio (this analysis is just…wtf?), Kabutops (OU and Ubers), Lanturn, Ludicolo (OU and Ubers), Mesprit, Milotic, Moltres, Nidoking (this ones kinda weird), Registeel, Rhyperior, Sceptile, Slowbro, Uxie (Ubers but not OU yet), Weezing __________________ I DONT DESERVE YOU

Sep 8th, 2010, 11:13:08 AM	#5
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	yeah i feel we should only prefix sets if they are designed to be used in a tier that isn't the pokemon's main tier. you say that people will assume sets to be ou sets because "ou is standard" but i think i'm not sure how likely that is. when i first started i sure didn't look through uu pokemon to find stuff to use in ou -- when i read uu analyses it was obvious by the tier designation that those were uu analyses. also it looks kinda dumb... tbh since im already doing the speed sweep i can fit this in if we get to a decision relatively soon __________________ <&Gouki> whistles sig is the best thing on smogon (slightly updated 3/13/13)

Sep 8th, 2010, 1:54:27 PM	#6
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	That sounds good, then. We should order the sets in analyses like this: Pokemon's Primary Tier OU Uber UU LC For purposes of this convention, we'll treat NU Pokemon as UU Pokemon and BL Pokemon as OU Pokemon. We'll also adjust so that: Sets in a Pokemon's primary tier do not need to be prefixed. This seems to match peoples' opinions on IRC and who have posted here. Last edited by Rising_Dusk; Sep 8th, 2010 at 7:07:51 PM.

Sep 9th, 2010, 1:06:55 PM	#7
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	went through the list in the OP -- if they're not mentioned here it means the analysis is fine the list, at the time I went through it (in case it changes) Clamperl: UU / LC Exeggutor: UU / Uber Floatzel: UU / OU Magmortar: (Listed UU Prefix) Magneton: (Listed UU Prefix) Nidoqueen: UU / OU Quagsire: UU / Uber Qwilfish: UU / OU Shiftry: UU / Uber Walrein: UU / OU Blissey: OU / Uber Celebi: OU / Uber Gengar: OU / Uber Infernape: OU / Uber Kingdra: OU / Uber Lucario: OU / Uber Magnezone: OU / Uber Ninjask: OU / Uber Scizor: OU / Uber Smeargle: OU / Uber Cresselia: OU / Uber Froslass: OU / Uber Aggron: UU / OU Donphan: UU / OU Drapion: UU / OU Dugtrio: UU / OU Kabutops: UU / OU / Uber Lanturn: UU / OU Ludicolo: UU / OU / Uber Mesprit: UU / OU Milotic: UU / OU Moltres: UU / OU Nidoking: UU / OU Registeel: UU / OU Rhyperior: UU / OU Sceptile: UU / OU Slowbro: UU / OU Uxie: UU / Uber Weezing: UU / OU added OU tags to two Exeggutor sets that had OU comments Floatzel has no OU sets or OU Team Options/Counters... why does it have an OU overview? added OU tags to two Magmortar sets that had OU comments. both of these are also viable in UU but they're in the UU update... deleted UU prefix from both Magneton sets. also removed all mentions of Yanmega/Roserade/Crobat as they are now banned from UU, and changed the EVs on the Special Sweeper since they were previously optimized for Roserade. added OU tags to Nidoqueen's OU sets; going to grammar check the UU update since it's horribly outdated. swapped ordering so UU sets are first. changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Quagsire's Uber sets/sections changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Shiftry's Uber sets/sections... man its UU stuff is so old Walrein's Stallrein set is written for OU but unlike with Magmortar I didn't label it OU because references to OU Pokemon aren't EVERYWHERE and come on it's Stallrein that's the primary UU set as well changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Kingdra. needs an Overview changed "Ubers" to "Uber" for Froslass for some reason Donphan's OU sets were tagged "OU - Set Name" so I just changed it to "OU Set Name" Drapion's utility special defender set is mostly written for OU with a very outdated UU reference so I just made it OU Dugtrio was kinda weird cause it had UU and OU tags within a set. since the sets are kinda different I separated them into separate sets and rewrote some stuff to make it make sense. removed raikou mentions. the Scarf set still has mixed comments but I didn't change that because I don't think it's worth it because the set sucks in UU (should just remove it, a QC duty) I added Mesprit tags yesterday when I was doing speed creep :p Uxie's TrickScarf is mostly OU with two sentences tacked on at the end for UU so I labeled it OU __________________ <&Gouki> whistles sig is the best thing on smogon (slightly updated 3/13/13)

Sep 9th, 2010, 5:25:13 PM	#8
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	Good job on that! I fixed up Floatzel, there's no reason for it to have an OU overview with no OU sets. That it lacks OU sets and overviews suggests how outclassed it is in the tier. Everything else looks great.