R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

It has recently come to my attention that WiFi battles in Black and White are finally adopting a console-style pre-match. What does this mean? It means that when you start a battle against another player, you get to see the species of all six of their Pokémon and they get to see yours. Then you choose which of your Pokémon to send out first.

From what I gather, this happens in every Wi-Fi match, even Friend Code matches, so any new simulator for the 5th gen games is most likely going to adopt it as well.

This may seem like a very minor change to some of you, but as someone who has played an extensive amount of Pokémon Battle Revolution using this rule, I can tell you that it is significant.

It shakes up the concept of a 'lead' Pokémon. No longer will you be required to always send out the same Pokémon at the start of every match. This is not to say that the concept of a lead will immediately or completely die. At first people will make teams like they always have, with an intended lead Pokémon that sets up Stealth Rock and/or other effects. But sometimes, they'll get to the pre-match screen and realize that their lead is going to be crushed by their opponent's lead and decide to lead with something else. Eventually, people will start designing their teams differently, bearing in mind that any of their Pokémon could potentially enter a match first.

It also severely reduces the importance of 'scouting'. You can see the species of all of your opponent's Pokémon right up front. A knowledgeable, skilled opponent is going to be able to figure out what moves and abilities your Pokémon is likely to have from the combination of Pokémon on your team.

In my experience, this change is very good for the game. Picking your lead(s) adds an entirely new layer of strategy. Pre-knowledge of an opponent's team gives skilled opponents a bigger edge, since they can predict switch-ins of Pokémon that have yet to enter the match.

Discuss.

[probationsmack]

Yeah, I like this, things won't seem so broken when you know exactly what your opponent is carrying and you can execute a plan to deal with it. Is it guaranteed that shoddy battle 2 will implement this?

[Losa]

Oh yes. I like this. Very much. I have actually been waiting for this for quite some time now. <3

[skullzie]

Well, this sucks.

[Ice-eyes]

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

[domeface]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

Agreed.

[SupremeDirt]

I have mixed feelings about this. Part of a gimmick team, something I like to run on occasion, relies on the element of surprise. Now gimmick Pokémon themselves will no longer exist.

[Sixfortyfive]

Originally Posted by Fat probationsmack

Yeah, I like this, things won't seem so broken when you know exactly what your opponent is carrying and you can execute a plan to deal with it. Is it guaranteed that shoddy battle 2 will implement this?

The simulators try to be as exact to the cartridge games as possible. If there is no way to turn off this feature in cartridge play, then I'd say that SB2 will definitely enforce it.

As a VGC player, this is a godsend. Tons of VGC matches are over before they even start, as half of your team is exposed in the first turn. This allows us to use our subs to mitigate that.

[Kristoph]

I think this is a very good change, and can only hope that the community does not resist it on the grounds of familiarity with the previous system, which was probably inferior anyway.

This does weaken gimmicks and 'weaker,' niche Pokemon to some extent, but people were bothered by "luck" and "team-dependence" and other stuff like that anyway. I feel like this could address those problems.

[GLS]

I'm not sure how much I like this. It's going to make things much more complicated than just deciding who your lead will be. You will have things like Electivire being seen so your opponent knows not to use obvious electric attacks. Is this good or bad? On one hand your opponent may be stuck using another attack on Gyarados out of pure fear of Vire. On the other hand your Vire is severely weakened by never having motor drive activated.

Ugh, my head is hurting from the mind games already.

[Nanoswine]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

^this

I have never played PBR so I don't know whether this will work or not, but at first glance it really seems to take a major amount of skill out of the game.

[skullzie]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

Yep.

[Bombkirby]

Don't look at the screen? :)

[DDRMaster]

You still choose 6 Pokemon for Friend Code matches, right? I already know it's only 3 for the Random Matches. In PBR, I would always lead with Tyranitar to get Sandstorm up and they would always realise that and send out a Fighting-type. I had Gliscor who would always get in essentially for free against Fighting types and scare them off so it worked out just fine.

If this makes it so we go back to using offensive leads, I'm fine with that. I never liked using Suicide Leads because the best thing that would happen is I would get SR up and be down 5-6. Hopefully bulky leads will still work. I like using Metagross and Swampert to set up SR early and usually when I don't I'm screwed.

[backlot]

It kinda makes a Pokemon's immunities useless if your opponent knows beforehand not to use Earthquake until your Gengar is out of the picture. I really hope this isn't true.

[andrea]

Originally Posted by Fat TheMaskedNitpicker

From what I gather, this happens in every Wi-Fi match, even Friend Code matches, so any new simulator for the 5th gen games is most likely going to adopt it as well.

Did you even read the response you got when you asked this in the research thread?

Originally Posted by Fat skarm

Wifi Singles are 3v3, and Triples are 6v6.

However. This is Random Wifi matches, much like PBR. Friend matches via friend codes still have teams hidden. This should not change anything in terms of the way simulators are built.

Edit: skarm =P

[Wikey]

Wow. I haven't been into the competitive scene since the beginning but this gen seems to be the biggest upheaval of the metagame yet. This seriously turns DPPtHGSS OU on it's head. So much of the metagame revolved around scouting and keeping your last pokemon a secret.

EDIT: Or not, after reading andrea's post.

[Arikado]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

This.

I'm not liking this at all, this basically means no more prediction.

[Murkglow]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

I'm not seeing the upside the OP and a few others seem to be viewing. To me the quote above seems like a much more reasonable view at the moment.

Edit: Thanks Andrea, you made me feel better.

[SMZ]

This indeed will change things. Sending which to lead will be a mind game. Not to mention a skilled player may utilize the information of foe's team to eliminate counters of their sweepers with the right prediction and other stuff as well.

[Bombkirby]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

Skill? Not knowing your opponents steam is gonna make all your decisions based on luck not skill, in reality. Knowing your opponent's team is gonna force ya to think about who they might send out first, who they might switch to and all other kinds of things. That in turn makes pokemon matches more based around educated guesses instead of blind luck.

[Da Letter El]

This makes Zoroark much less useful since teams would know when he is a possibility to be used or not. That notwithstanding, I think this is a pretty good idea; it's not all roses, but it does increase the amount of informed prediction, which encourages smarter play.

[FrenzyB3ar]

I prefer this actually , I think it will make teams alot more versatile.

"A knowledgeable, skilled opponent is going to be able to figure out what moves and abilities your Pokémon is likely to have from the combination of Pokémon on your team."

Hopefully it will make players be alot more creative.

[btb]

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

I hate this. It invalidates a lot of core pokemon concepts; I can't hide my sweeper until the endgame, and I know exactly what to sacrifice, always. This removes a considerable layer of the skill in pokemon.

That's exactly what I was thinking. That pretty much throws prediction out of the window.

Edit:

Friend matches via friend codes still have teams hidden.

Thank god. I guess we can stop worrying about it then.

[vielIeis]

If Shoddy 2 enforce this I will stop playing pokemon.
Wtf does Gamefreak think? Oh lets show all 6 Pokemon and not only this we will fuck it up even more with the feature to change your lead pokemon..
n/c..