Starmie and Aiming Mark

[Onetwobanana]

Apologies if there's a thread on this already, I couldn't find one though. This is not a tiering discussion.



Starmie, with its unique access to Natural Cure, Recover, Trick, and Rapid Spin, has quite possibly become the single best Rapid Spinner in the 5th generation. Imagine something like this:

Starmie @ Aiming Mark
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
~Trick
~Recover
~Rapid Spin
~Boiling Water

From the research thread:

Bull's Eye (aka Aiming Mark): The holder loses its type immunities as long as it is holding it. It does not lose type immunities granted by abilities such as Levitate.

You switch Starmie in. The opponent switches to a Ghost, expecting a Rapid Spin. Instead they eat a Trick. Suddenly, they aren't immune to Normal type attacks anymore, making Spinning incredibly easy for Starmie. Toxic Spikes don't matter to Starmie thanks to Natural Cure, and it can Recover the damage off rather thoroughly. I chose Boiling Water over Surf for the chance of spreading Burn, which helps make Starmie even bulkier.

This may be gimmicky, but I think it could make Starmie one of the best, if not the best, Rapid Spinner in the metagame. The only issue would be if Starmie tricks itself a Choice item, but that only slows the strategy down a bit, not stop it.

Thoughts?

[Wynought]

Too much work to blow away rocks. In all honesty, did you ever find spinning rocks so difficult? Especially with a Starmie. One miss prediction and that Ghosts eats a Hydro Pump.

Stealth Rocks is also very uncommon in Gen V, apparently. So...

If you can find a slot on your team, and if your team is truly weak to SR it would be viable.

[Arc Tech]

So it takes two turns to spin SR, and if your opponent doesn't switch in the ghost first you don't get to spin at all? Yeah not very good.
It also takes two moveslots, so it either has to give up STAB, coverage, the ability to check gyrados, and/or recover if it wants to try it on a defensive set. Not really good for something that is not even 100% sure.

[Nastyjungle]

Too much set up for a simple RS, and Starmie might receive an item that doesn't agree with it. Besides- there's a high chance the opponent won't switch to a ghost, making the whole plan moot anyways.

[labarith]

Doesn't Defog do the same job in one turn now?

[Arc Tech]

No, that was just a rumor.

[porky]

A bit of a gimmick set, but usable.

Its great support to something like urugamosu.

Make it impossible for your opponent to keep entry hazards up, and set up a sweep.

[petrie911]

Tricking an aiming mark onto a ghost has more benefits than just spinning. Not being immune to normal and fighting attacks makes it much more difficult to switch in. Lucario especially would love to have foe ghosts no longer immune to normal, as then he can extremespeed them.

EDIT: OK, apparently we're back to Shoddy-glitched trick mechanics.

Of course, the biggest problem is that, no matter how much you cripple the foe's ghost type, it's not as crippling as being KO'd. Starmie is much better off Hydro Pumping the incoming ghost.

I could see Claydol using this in UU. It has more difficulty KOing ghost types, but it's an otherwise great rapid spinner, being immune to both spikes and resisting SR.

[Arc Tech]

If a Trick user holding a Choice item swaps with another Pokemon holding a Choice item, they are not locked into Trick the turn immediately after.
From BW Reserach thread

So choiced shanderaa wouldn't be a problem, since then starmie could just surf. He also wouldn't be forced to switch so pursuiters would be less of a threat.

[NDenizen]

Whilst this is viable, it's kind of ruined by the fact that simply having two ghosts on a team will nullify any benefits it has. Also, I would class Doryuzu as a much more useful spinner considering Starmie's weakness to Ghost attacks, even if it does suffer against Water and Ground ghosts.

Of course, providing the Aiming Mark isn't consumable, then tricking it onto something with common immunities could become a very viable strategy outside of spinning.

[The King of Harts]

I think if you want to Trick the Aiming Mark (which I think may have originated from me in the Sableye thread...), Starmie is NOT the way to go. In my opinion, there are only two options: Erufuun or Sableye, also known as the Mischievous Twins (not really, but it sounds cool). As I'm sure many already know, Erufuun has a huge support movepool with Leech Seed, Taunt, and Encore and better overall stats than Sableye. However, Sableye has no weaknesses, 3 immunities (Normal, Fighting, Psychic), Tanut, Will-o-Wisp, and, probably the most important tool, Metal Burst, which allows him to come in on an attack and threaten to OHKO back if it does enough damage. Unfortunately, he's not as big of threat offensively as Erufuun, who isn't even that great herself, but has Leech Seed to balance it out.

I say these two are better suited because they're made for supporting roles like Tricking/Switcherooing, unlike Starmie who's much more useful on offense. While Starmie certainly could run it to great affect, having Mischievous Heart give +1 priority to Trick for Sableye and Erufuun certainly make them better at it. Plus, the Ghost weakness of Starmie makes it less effective as well.

Originally Posted by Fat Nastyjungle

Too much set up for a simple RS, and Starmie might receive an item that doesn't agree with it. Besides- there's a high chance the opponent won't switch to a ghost, making the whole plan moot anyways.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the Aiming Mark works on more than just ghosts. Wouldn't it be awesome to, oh, I don't know, take Skarmory's Shed Shell and remove his Ground and Poison immunities all in one swift Trick? Or perhaps take Garchomps Choice Scarf and make him vulnerable to paralysis? Or, perhaps even more useful, taking that annoying wall's Leftovers while making them susceptible to more attacks?

Aiming Mark has many uses outside of Rapid Spinning.

[Ironnicle]

For the sake of Rapid Spinning: that is a great Starmie set but as SR is will have slightly less usage, it will feel like a waste on many teams and may be bumped for other "bulky waters" ie Vaporeon. But if the metagame is where SR, Spikes, and T-Spikes are still highly used. Starmie will be the best Rapid Spinner and have a nice niche.

[Nastyjungle]

Originally Posted by Fat The King of Harts

I think you're overlooking the fact that the Aiming Mark works on more than just ghosts. Wouldn't it be awesome to, oh, I don't know, take Skarmory's Shed Shell and remove his Ground and Poison immunities all in one swift Trick? Or perhaps take Garchomps Choice Scarf and make him vulnerable to paralysis? Or, perhaps even more useful, taking that annoying wall's Leftovers while making them susceptible to more attacks?

Aiming Mark has many uses outside of Rapid Spinning.

I know you were only using it as example; but I doubt something like Skarmory would try to come in on Starmie. As for the Chomp situation, like I said before, a choice item is completely unfavorable to OP's set; not to mention that on top of perhaps getting a bad item, not all pokemon have immunities, and the worst you could do to them would be take away whatever item they had- I just can't see this as more than a gimmick.

[mudkipmanxp5]

Gimmicky set that could work. But IMO, Life Orb Starmie with 3 attacks + Rapid Spin is one of the best spinners because no ghost wants to switch into a Hydro Pump. And if they do switch in, then u can kill them off and then Rapid Spin.

[kd24]

i think this is extremely risky, especially when the spin blockers in this gen will just be koed by Hydro Pump or Thunderbolt. It seems like a meaningless risk/reward. As for removing immunities, not many steel/ground/flying types are ever going to switch into starmie with the risk of being KOed by life orb attacks. There are a few this would have use for, but certainly not many. I guess one plausable idea is tricking Blissey with it to remove the ghost immunity while also taking leftovers but that seems like a very uncommon scenario.

[Wikey]

The reason Rapid Spinning sucks is because you are wasting many turns to undo something that took your opponent one turn to do. Starmie is almost always going to be doing more good for the team blasting away ghosts with Hydro Pump. Wasting two turns not doing any damage just seems like a waste on such a powerful special attacker.

[ShinyAzelf]

This is slightly gimmicky, but it works. The only problem I see is something like Scarf Gengar coming in and killing you before you get to spin, but Gengar's NEVER switch in to Starmie. I actually think the set is decent.

[manav95]

Why don't they just give Tyranitar Rapid Spin or give it to something with Scrappy? The Scrappy mons can hit ghosts with normal moves and could care less if a Ghost came in. Tyranitar is the thing that Ghosts check under their beds for. He completely neuters them with Pursuit and they can't do anything except hit it for crap damage. Then Tar just Rapid Spins all the hazards away and Charizard can be viable now.

[purpleanon]

I like this set. Though, people will probably be gay and just use two ghosts. Some peoples teams might just have two ghosts period.

[Wafflez]

Wow i came into this thread thinking that id say "Aiming mark?You mean LIFE ORB" but now that i read it this actually makes sense.This could possibly work and its quite funny =P.Gj bro this gets in my What to do in B/W list.

[petrie911]

Originally Posted by Fat Wikey

The reason Rapid Spinning sucks is because you are wasting many turns to undo something that took your opponent one turn to do. Starmie is almost always going to be doing more good for the team blasting away ghosts with Hydro Pump. Wasting two turns not doing any damage just seems like a waste on such a powerful special attacker.

It'll take your opponent just as many turns to reset SR, and even more to get their spikes back up. Meanwhile, you're no longer taking damage on every switch. If you can get the spin off, it *is* worth it.

[red12345]

Tricking it to Spiritomb is the most profitable

[Shimrit As]

Agree with above posters that LO Starmie, Payback Forretres or even Rapid Spin Doryuuzu can clear hazards much more easily. This set seems too specialized and while Tricking an Aiming Mark elsewhere works in isolated situations I think Starmie is better off as an offensive spinner which also kills whatever Skarmory or Garchomp you wanted to Trick an Aiming Mark onto o-o

[Flash Jordan]

Tricking probably takes too much time to pull off effectively, but Starmie does look fantastic as a rapid spinner this generation. It forces a lot of switches, and with analyze (assuming it follows the same conditions as payback) coupled with super effective attacks against the chandelier, the golem and the water blob and a boosted hydro pump against everything else, you have a good chance of either taking out their spin blocker altogether or predicting a rapid spin on a pursuit-er.

[DDRMaster]

At first I thought this was a waste of time to try and use, but then I remembered that once you Trick Aiming Mark onto a Ghost type, your Normal and Fighting Pokemon (Step Form Melodia) can fire off their STAB attacks without having anything be immune to them. In particular, you can run Hi Jump Kick on Pokemon over Close Combat without worrying about anything other than hax and Protect causing it to miss and make the Pokemon hurt itself. Foresight+Rapid Spin Hitmontop saw some use in Gen 4 and with Aiming Mark, you can hit the Pokemon with Rapid Spin even after it switches out, so you don't have to use 2 turns to Rapid Spin the first time you switch in.

This strategy still probably won't see much use, but it does have uses beyond simply using 2 turns to remove entry hazards.