UU Speed Tiers

eric the espeon · Feb 19th, 2010, 10:04:31 AM

The UU Speed Tiers have come a long way but there is still a lot of work to be done. Many questionable Pokemon are still up, and a large number in this thread still need a second opinion before they are removed. UU is one of the least stable tiers so will probably need more constant attention to keep it up to date, if a new set becomes popular and useful or an old one drops out of common play I expect it to be posted here!

Please post Pokemon and sets that you think should be added or removed, preferably with a sentence or so of reasoning explaining why the Pokemon is threatening and common enough and should be added, or is not useful/used and should be removed. I or another C&C mod will edit the list of sets to add/remove with suggestions based on support and experience, and once they have been left for comment for a fair amount of time they will be edited into the on site speed tiers.

Most recent UU usage stats are here, detailed stats are here.

Posts expressing support for/disagreement with other people's posts are also encouraged.

Format:
Speed Stat / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature / Boost / Ev Investment
(for removals, you don't need to stick precisely to that format so long as it is clear which set you want removed)

Possible removals:
493 / Persian / 115 / Neutral / +1 / 252
478 / Mantine / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252
478 / Espeon / 110 / Neutral / +1 / 252
433 / Jynx / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252
352 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 0
350 / Espeon / 110 / +Speed / None / 252
339 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / None / 252
329 / Floatzel / 115 / Neutral / None / 252
329 / Raikou / 115 / Neutral / None / 252
299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252
262 / Poliwrath / 70 / +Speed / None / 252
223 / Gorebyss / 52 / +Speed / None / 252
216 / Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / None / 160
206 / Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0
196 / Shedinja / 40 / +Speed / None / 252

Possible additions:
524 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252
463 / Rotom / 91 / +Speed / +1 / 252
459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252
392 / Rhyperior / 40 / +Speed / +2 / 252
343 / Ursaring / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252
343 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252
200 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / None / 8
199 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / None / 252
178 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 48
405 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 136
398 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / +2 / 252
279 / Kangaskhan / 90 / Neutral / 252

done

Komodo · Feb 19th, 2010, 10:15:58 AM

Remove:
Maybe not

Edit for diesel - These are mostly notes since there were things like 252 Spe versions of slow Pokemon like Weezing. Yes, these need removing since we want to get rid of a bunch of useless NU Pokemon from the list.

edit2 - As ete said on IRC, post any you're unsure of and get opinions from others :)

Eo - I mistake these for NU >_>

whistle · Feb 19th, 2010, 11:35:03 AM

The entry at 524 Speed should read +Speed not Neutral nature (base 70s)

Will explain deletes on request but most of them are either Pokemon that are not viable or Pokemon that are viable with Speed boosts or EVs that are never seen.

Delete entries
524 / Mantine / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252
502 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +2 / 252
493 / Persian / 115 / Neutral / +1 / 252
478 / Mantine / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252
478 / Espeon / 110 / Neutral / +1 / 252
475 / Houndoom / 95 / +Speed / +1 / 252
463 / Scyther / 105 / Neutral / +1 / 252
459 / Mr. Mime / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252
448 / Miltank / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252
448 / Ninetales / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252
433 / Houndoom / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252
433 / Jynx / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252
433 / Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252
403 / Gligar / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252
376 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252
376 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252
376 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +1 / 252
360 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252
360 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252
352 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 0
350 / Espeon / 110 / +Speed / None / 252
349 / Hypno / 67 / Neutral / +1 / 252
348 / Sudowoodo / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252
348 / Sunflora / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252
343 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / +1 / 252
339 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / None / 252
329 / Floatzel / 115 / Neutral / None / 252
329 / Raikou / 115 / Neutral / None / 252
328 / Linoone / 100 / +Speed / None / 252
328 / Clefable/ 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252
328 / Wailord/ 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252
322 / Raticate / 97 / +Speed / None / 252
310 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / +1 / 252
299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252
298 / Mawile / 50 / Neutral / +1 / 252
289 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 252
284 / Arbok / 80 / +Speed / None / 252
284 / Glalie / 80 / +Speed / None / 252
284 / Phione / 80 / +Speed / None / 252
283 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / +1 / 252
279 / Vigoroth / 90 / Neutral / None / 252
264 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 152
262 / Luxray / 70 / +Speed / None / 252
262 / Poliwrath / 70 / +Speed / None / 252
262 / Solrock / 70 / +Speed / None / 252
258 / Exploud / 68 / +Speed / None / 252
258 / Seaking / 68 / +Speed / None / 252
256 / Hypno / 67 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Beautifly / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Chimecho / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Dustox / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Flareon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Pelipper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Seviper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
251 / Walrein / 65 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Lapras / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Masquerain / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Weezing / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
240 / Whiscash / 60 / +Speed / None / 252
229 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / None / 252
229 / Swalot / 55 / +Speed / None / 252
229 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
229 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 252
223 / Gorebyss / 52 / +Speed / None / 252
219 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
219 / Lapras / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
219 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
219 / Wailord / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
219 / Weezing / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
219 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 252
218 / Sableye / 50 / +Speed / None / 252
216 / Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / None / 160
209 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 252
207 / Armaldo / 45 / +Speed / None / 252
207 / Dunsparce / 45 / +Speed / None / 252
207 / Golem / 45 / +Speed / None / 252
207 / Granbull / 45 / +Speed / None / 252
207 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / None / 252
196 / Shedinja / 40 / +Speed / None / 252
189 / Armaldo / 45 / Neutral / None / 252
189 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 252
189 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 252
189 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 252
189 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 252
179 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 252
179 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 252
176 / Dewgong / 70 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
166 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 0
156 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 0
156 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 0
146 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 0
136 / Sableye / 50 / Neutral / None / 0
126 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 0
126 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 0
126 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 0
126 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 0
116 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 0
116 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 0
106 / Corsola / 35 / Neutral / None / 0
96 / Bastiodon / 30 / Neutral / None / 0
96 / Magcargo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0
96 / Parasect / 30 / Neutral / None / 0
96 / Sudowoodo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0

Add entries
524 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252
463 / Rotom / 91 / +Speed / +1 / 252
459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252
392 / Rhyperior / 40 / +Speed / +2 / 252
343 / Ursaring / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252
343 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252
200 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / None / 8
199 / Aggron / 50/ Neutral / None / 252
178 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 48

Diesel · Feb 19th, 2010, 2:44:13 PM

It would be great if you could clarify what specifically we want the Speed Tiers to be, eric, because without a clear purpose, everyone will end up deleting different things for different reasons, or we may go way overboard or something and hurt the usefulness of the article. If we remove a ton of Pokemon, are we operating under the assumption that if someone wants to use a certain Pokemon, that they should simply refer to a Pokemon on the list with the same base speed as their Pokemon? And what is "viable", do we simply nuke every set of every Pokemon that's rarely seen? Or do we keep those that fill an important niche role on certain teams (baton pass, etc) OR are the best sets those Pokemon can muster? Anyway, some sort of loose purpose and guidelines would do this some good I think.

@September: Are you proposing we remove ALL the sets of all of those pokemon?

**Eo Ut Mortus** · Feb 19th, 2010, 4:52:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat September

Remove:
317 / Leafeon / 95 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Leafeon sets)
284 / Drifblim / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Drifblim sets)

I disagree with these removals. Both Leafeon and Drifblim are UU, and these spreads are reasonably common (Leafeon's more so than Drifblim's, though).

eric the espeon · Feb 19th, 2010, 5:40:54 PM

@Diesel: I think that the current OU Speed tiers can be used as a reasonable guideline, they include all of the threats you are likely to encounter reasonably often or may have to prepare for, but don't include the extremely rare or outclassed Pokemon. It's not a watertight basis for choosing whether every single Pokemon should be in or not, but some degree of subjectivity is to be expected unless we want to base them purely of usage stats and update them every month.

Basically, threats that it would be useful for UU players to be able to see should be listed. And the list should be as short as possible in order to be easy to navigate and read. So, remove anything not relevant to the metagame, add anything that is. Use common sense to decide how relevant is relevant.

Diesel · Feb 19th, 2010, 7:05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

@Diesel: I think that the current OU Speed tiers can be used as a reasonable guideline, they include all of the threats you are likely to encounter reasonably often of may have to prepare for, but don't include the extremely rare or outclassed Pokemon. It's not a watertight basis for choosing whether every single Pokemon should be in or not, but some degree of subjectivity is to be expected unless we want to base them purely of usage stats and update them every month.

Basically, threats that it would be useful for UU players to be able to see should be listed. And the list should be as short as possible in order to be easy to navigate and read. So, remove anything not relevant to the metagame, add anything that is. Use common sense to decide how relevant is relevant.

Thanks, eric, this makes things much more clear. Due to the abundance of Pokemon listed I perceived the purpose of the Speed Tiers to be vastly different from what it apparently is.

Also, you left out a comma at 299 speed between Miltank and Typhlosion. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat September

Edit for diesel - These are mostly notes since there were things like 252 Spe versions of slow Pokemon like Weezing. Yes, these need removing since we want to get rid of NU Pokemon from the list.

The point is not to remove NU Pokemon from the list, or this would be much simpler. I'm iffy on the below, obviously in addition to Leafeon and Drifblim, which should be kept.

Bellyzard variants could be kept, just because it would be important to know if it were to set up on you. All other variants, probably not. IMO Linoone should be kept for the same reasons, but moreso than Charizard, since it's the more popular Belly Drum user (added below). Charizard is debatable, although it would be kind of a slap in the face to remove it after it saved Ash from Aerodactyl. Just sayin'.

On a more serious note, I definitely think Kangaskhan should be kept. It's #65 in usage, putting it in the company of Pokemon we're keeping. That and, IMO, its speed is deceptively high relative to its appearance. Franky's sets in his analysis both call for Jolly as the preferred nature, but Adamant is used 92% of the time...

Additions:

405 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 136
398 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / +2 / 252
279 / Kangaskhan / 90 / Neutral / 252
286 / Cresselia / 85 / +Speed / 216

Removals:

206 / Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0

eric the espeon · Mar 22nd, 2010, 10:38:42 AM

A vast majority of the suggested removals have been made, the remaining ones seemed to be questionable to me from the stats. If some UU players would like to give their input so the rest of the proposals can be added or rejected it would be great.

whistle · Mar 24th, 2010, 8:04:35 AM

eric the espeon · Mar 25th, 2010, 9:53:03 PM

Quote:

299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252
pre-Salac Linoone is pretty much irrelevant (note the additions section has post-Salac Linoone)

If a Pokemon is in the Speed Tiers after a boost and exists before the boost, then unless there is an amazing reason for it to not to be there pre-boost it should be. You may want to hit it before it drums, no?

The others sound reasonable to me, I'll make the rest of the changes it in a few days if there are no objections.

whistle · Mar 26th, 2010, 5:24:04 AM

it doesn't really matter whether you hit linoone before it belly drums or after it belly drums on the same turn. if you hit it before, then if it does enough damage it can't drum. if you hit it afterwards, it dies. same difference basically. linoone isn't trying to avoid a hit when it belly drums; it's trying to do it on a setup condition that will let it take less than 50% and not receive a status condition. it only matters for other pokemon cause they can do damage or sub up or whatever.
regardless, the analysis ev spread is 136 speed adamant, not 252 speed adamant

Diesel · Aug 12th, 2010, 12:52:23 AM

Is there a reason Azumarill is absent?

140 / Azumarill / Neutral / 16

Also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Diesel

Still a comma missing at 299 between Miltank and Typhlosion :P

whistle · Sep 10th, 2010, 5:47:22 PM

deleted 493 persian
deleted 478 mantine
deleted 478 espeon
deleted 433 jynx
deleted 352 ludicolo
deleted 329 floatzel
deleted 329 raikou
deleted 299 linoone
deleted 262 poliwrath
deleted 223 gorebyss
deleted 216 hitmontop
deleted 206 toxicroak
deleted 196 shedinja
deleted 209 omastar
deleted 229 cacturne
deleted 203 gorebyss
deleted 212 lapras
deleted 179 camerupt
deleted 176 ludicolo
deleted 166 umbreon

added 524 ludicolo
added 463 rotom
added 459 moltres
added 392 rhyperior
added 343 ursaring
added 343 crawdaunt
added 200 milotic
added 199 aggron
added 178 walrein
added 405 linoone
added 398 aggron
added 279 kangaskhan
added 136 azumarill
added comma in 299

still needs quite a bit of work i'll do this at some point?

Diesel · Sep 10th, 2010, 5:51:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat whistle

added comma in 299

I was beginning to think ete was trolling me. :P

YaM · Sep 16th, 2010, 8:44:38 AM

459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252

459 is missing for the article on-site.

and 118 / Umbreon / 65 / -Speed; 0 IV / None / 0 should be removed

eric the espeon · Sep 16th, 2010, 9:24:15 AM

Sorry for not getting round to this. Feel free to bug me a lot if I do something like this again.

Berserker Lord · Oct 9th, 2010, 1:52:15 PM

I see no reason as to why 317 / Leafeon / 95 / +Speed / none / 252 isin't on the speed tiers. It is the most common type of Leafeon in this metgame and in every other one i've played.

YaM · Oct 9th, 2010, 8:42:14 PM

oh yeah and erm... the errors I pointed out haven't been corrected.

Feb 19th, 2010, 10:04:31 AM	#1
eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,695	UU Speed Tiers The UU Speed Tiers have come a long way but there is still a lot of work to be done. Many questionable Pokemon are still up, and a large number in this thread still need a second opinion before they are removed. UU is one of the least stable tiers so will probably need more constant attention to keep it up to date, if a new set becomes popular and useful or an old one drops out of common play I expect it to be posted here! Please post Pokemon and sets that you think should be added or removed, preferably with a sentence or so of reasoning explaining why the Pokemon is threatening and common enough and should be added, or is not useful/used and should be removed. I or another C&C mod will edit the list of sets to add/remove with suggestions based on support and experience, and once they have been left for comment for a fair amount of time they will be edited into the on site speed tiers. Most recent UU usage stats are here, detailed stats are here. Posts expressing support for/disagreement with other people's posts are also encouraged. Format: Speed Stat / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature / Boost / Ev Investment (for removals, you don't need to stick precisely to that format so long as it is clear which set you want removed) Possible removals: 493 / Persian / 115 / Neutral / +1 / 252 478 / Mantine / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252 478 / Espeon / 110 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Jynx / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 352 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 0 350 / Espeon / 110 / +Speed / None / 252 339 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / None / 252 329 / Floatzel / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 329 / Raikou / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252 262 / Poliwrath / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 223 / Gorebyss / 52 / +Speed / None / 252 216 / Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / None / 160 206 / Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0 196 / Shedinja / 40 / +Speed / None / 252 Possible additions: 524 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252 463 / Rotom / 91 / +Speed / +1 / 252 459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 392 / Rhyperior / 40 / +Speed / +2 / 252 343 / Ursaring / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 343 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 200 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / None / 8 199 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / None / 252 178 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 48 405 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 136 398 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / +2 / 252 279 / Kangaskhan / 90 / Neutral / 252 done Removed: 524 / Mantine / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252 502 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +2 / 252 475 / Houndoom / 95 / +Speed / +1 / 252 463 / Scyther / 105 / Neutral / +1 / 252 459 / Mr. Mime / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 448 / Miltank / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252 448 / Ninetales / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Houndoom / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 403 / Gligar / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252 376 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 376 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 376 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +1 / 252 360 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252 360 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252 349 / Hypno / 67 / Neutral / +1 / 252 348 / Sudowoodo / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 348 / Sunflora / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 343 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / +1 / 252 328 / Linoone / 100 / +Speed / None / 252 328 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252 328 / Wailord/ 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252 322 / Raticate / 97 / +Speed / None / 252 310 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / +1 / 252 298 / Mawile / 50 / Neutral / +1 / 252 289 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 252 284 / Arbok / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 284 / Glalie / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 284 / Phione / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 283 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / +1 / 252 279 / Vigoroth / 90 / Neutral / None / 252 264 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 152 262 / Luxray / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 262 / Solrock / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 258 / Exploud / 68 / +Speed / None / 252 258 / Seaking / 68 / +Speed / None / 252 256 / Hypno / 67 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Beautifly / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Chimecho / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Dustox / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Flareon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Pelipper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Seviper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Walrein / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Lapras / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Masquerain / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Weezing / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Whiscash / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Swalot / 55 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Lapras / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Wailord / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Weezing / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 218 / Sableye / 50 / +Speed / None / 252 209 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 252 207 / Armaldo / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Dunsparce / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Golem / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Granbull / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 189 / Armaldo / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 179 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 252 179 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 252 176 / Dewgong / 70 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 156 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 0 156 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 0 146 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 0 136 / Sableye / 50 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 116 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 0 116 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 0 106 / Corsola / 35 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Bastiodon / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Magcargo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Parasect / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Sudowoodo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 Removed by September: 508 / Rapidash / 105 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Rapidash sets) 448 / Raichu / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Raichu sets) 436 / Bellossom / 50 / +Speed / +2 / 252 (And all other Bellossom sets) 436 / Vileplume / 50 / +Speed / +2 / 252 (And all other Vileplume sets) 433 / Xatu / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Xatu sets) 426 / Grumpig / 80 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Grumpig sets) 403 / Girafarig / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Girafarig sets) 403 / Golduck / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Golduck sets) 378 / Armaldo / 45 / Neutral / +2 / 252 (And all other Armaldo sets) 376 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Glaceon sets) 376 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Banette sets) 373 / Kingler / 75 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Kingler sets) 349 / Hypno / 67 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Hypno sets) 348 / Sudowoodo / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 (And all other Sudowoodo sets) 348 / Sunflora / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 (And all other Sunflora sets) 339 / Manectric / 105 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Manectric sets) 328 / Ninetales / 100 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Ninetales sets) 322 / Raticate / 97 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Raticate sets) 313 / Relicanth / 55 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Relicanth sets) 313 / Crawdaunt / 55 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Crawdaunt sets) 310 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Octillery sets) 306 / Mr.Mime / 90 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Mr.Mine sets) 298 / Mawile / 50 / Neutral / +1 / 252 (And all other Mawile sets) 284 / Arbok / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Arbok sets) 284 / Gardevoir / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Gardevoir sets) 284 / Glalie / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Glalie sets) 284 / Medicham / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Medicham sets) 239 / Butterfree / 70 / Neutral / None / 252 (And all other Butterfree sets) 239 / Lunatone / 70 / Neutral / None / 252 (And all other Lunatone sets) 239 / Mightyena / 70 / Neutral / None / 252 (And all other Mightyena sets) 239 / Noctowl / 70 / Neutral / None / 252 (And all other Noctowl sets) 239 / Politoed / 70 / Neutral / None / 252 (And all other Politoed sets) 492 / Charizard / 100 / +Speed / +1 / 252 (And all other Charizard sets) 306 / Kangaskhan / 90 / +Speed / None / 252 (And all other Kangaskhan sets) __________________ For people who like storing things: The Box Reading and LC? LCF, LC Guide, LC Analyses Good channels: #littlecup, #C&C, #1v1, others And for SCMS editors: SCMS group ete on IRC. Goodbye Smogon. Good luck, was fun while it lasted. Last edited by Rising_Dusk; Oct 10th, 2010 at 4:40:26 AM. Reason: Changed Prefix

Feb 19th, 2010, 10:15:58 AM	#2
Komodo Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,001	Remove: Maybe not Edit for diesel - These are mostly notes since there were things like 252 Spe versions of slow Pokemon like Weezing. Yes, these need removing since we want to get rid of a bunch of useless NU Pokemon from the list. edit2 - As ete said on IRC, post any you're unsure of and get opinions from others :) Eo - I mistake these for NU >_> __________________ If you ask nicely I can GP check Smog articles =] Last edited by Komodo; Mar 14th, 2010 at 9:19:49 PM.

Feb 19th, 2010, 11:35:03 AM	#3
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	The entry at 524 Speed should read +Speed not Neutral nature (base 70s) Will explain deletes on request but most of them are either Pokemon that are not viable or Pokemon that are viable with Speed boosts or EVs that are never seen. Delete entries 524 / Mantine / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252 502 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +2 / 252 493 / Persian / 115 / Neutral / +1 / 252 478 / Mantine / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252 478 / Espeon / 110 / Neutral / +1 / 252 475 / Houndoom / 95 / +Speed / +1 / 252 463 / Scyther / 105 / Neutral / +1 / 252 459 / Mr. Mime / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 448 / Miltank / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252 448 / Ninetales / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Houndoom / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Jynx / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 433 / Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 403 / Gligar / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252 376 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 376 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / +1 / 252 376 / Hitmonchan / 76 / Neutral / +1 / 252 360 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252 360 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252 352 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 0 350 / Espeon / 110 / +Speed / None / 252 349 / Hypno / 67 / Neutral / +1 / 252 348 / Sudowoodo / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 348 / Sunflora / 30 / +Speed / +2 / 252 343 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / +1 / 252 339 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / None / 252 329 / Floatzel / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 329 / Raikou / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 328 / Linoone / 100 / +Speed / None / 252 328 / Clefable/ 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252 328 / Wailord/ 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252 322 / Raticate / 97 / +Speed / None / 252 310 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / +1 / 252 299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252 298 / Mawile / 50 / Neutral / +1 / 252 289 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 252 284 / Arbok / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 284 / Glalie / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 284 / Phione / 80 / +Speed / None / 252 283 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / +1 / 252 279 / Vigoroth / 90 / Neutral / None / 252 264 / Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / None / 152 262 / Luxray / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 262 / Poliwrath / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 262 / Solrock / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 258 / Exploud / 68 / +Speed / None / 252 258 / Seaking / 68 / +Speed / None / 252 256 / Hypno / 67 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Banette / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Beautifly / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Chimecho / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Dustox / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Flareon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Glaceon / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Pelipper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Seviper / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 251 / Walrein / 65 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Clefable / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Lapras / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Masquerain / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Wailord / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Weezing / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 240 / Whiscash / 60 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Swalot / 55 / +Speed / None / 252 229 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 229 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 252 223 / Gorebyss / 52 / +Speed / None / 252 219 / Clefable / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Lapras / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Wailord / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Weezing / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 219 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 252 218 / Sableye / 50 / +Speed / None / 252 216 / Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / None / 160 209 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 252 207 / Armaldo / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Dunsparce / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Golem / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Granbull / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 207 / Octillery / 45 / +Speed / None / 252 196 / Shedinja / 40 / +Speed / None / 252 189 / Armaldo / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 189 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 252 179 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 252 179 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 252 176 / Dewgong / 70 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Banette / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Beautifly / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Chimecho / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Dustox / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Flareon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Glaceon / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Pelipper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Seviper / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 166 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 0 156 / Masquerain / 60 / Neutral / None / 0 156 / Whiscash / 60 / Neutral / None / 0 146 / Swalot / 55 / Neutral / None / 0 136 / Sableye / 50 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Dunsparce / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Golem / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Granbull / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 126 / Octillery / 45 / Neutral / None / 0 116 / Kecleon / 40 / Neutral / None / 0 116 / Probopass / 40 / Neutral / None / 0 106 / Corsola / 35 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Bastiodon / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Magcargo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Parasect / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 96 / Sudowoodo / 30 / Neutral / None / 0 Add entries 524 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252 463 / Rotom / 91 / +Speed / +1 / 252 459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 392 / Rhyperior / 40 / +Speed / +2 / 252 343 / Ursaring / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 343 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 200 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / None / 8 199 / Aggron / 50/ Neutral / None / 252 178 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 48 Last edited by whistle; Feb 19th, 2010 at 11:39:16 AM. Reason: added explanation

Mar 22nd, 2010, 10:38:42 AM	#8
eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,695	A vast majority of the suggested removals have been made, the remaining ones seemed to be questionable to me from the stats. If some UU players would like to give their input so the rest of the proposals can be added or rejected it would be great. __________________ For people who like storing things: The Box Reading and LC? LCF, LC Guide, LC Analyses Good channels: #littlecup, #C&C, #1v1, others And for SCMS editors: SCMS group ete on IRC. Goodbye Smogon. Good luck, was fun while it lasted.

Sep 10th, 2010, 5:47:22 PM	#13
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	deleted 493 persian deleted 478 mantine deleted 478 espeon deleted 433 jynx deleted 352 ludicolo deleted 329 floatzel deleted 329 raikou deleted 299 linoone deleted 262 poliwrath deleted 223 gorebyss deleted 216 hitmontop deleted 206 toxicroak deleted 196 shedinja deleted 209 omastar deleted 229 cacturne deleted 203 gorebyss deleted 212 lapras deleted 179 camerupt deleted 176 ludicolo deleted 166 umbreon added 524 ludicolo added 463 rotom added 459 moltres added 392 rhyperior added 343 ursaring added 343 crawdaunt added 200 milotic added 199 aggron added 178 walrein added 405 linoone added 398 aggron added 279 kangaskhan added 136 azumarill added comma in 299 still needs quite a bit of work i'll do this at some point? __________________ <&Gouki> whistles sig is the best thing on smogon (slightly updated 3/13/13)

Feb 19th, 2010, 2:44:13 PM	#4
Diesel Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,945 Reach	It would be great if you could clarify what specifically we want the Speed Tiers to be, eric, because without a clear purpose, everyone will end up deleting different things for different reasons, or we may go way overboard or something and hurt the usefulness of the article. If we remove a ton of Pokemon, are we operating under the assumption that if someone wants to use a certain Pokemon, that they should simply refer to a Pokemon on the list with the same base speed as their Pokemon? And what is "viable", do we simply nuke every set of every Pokemon that's rarely seen? Or do we keep those that fill an important niche role on certain teams (baton pass, etc) OR are the best sets those Pokemon can muster? Anyway, some sort of loose purpose and guidelines would do this some good I think. @September: Are you proposing we remove ALL the sets of all of those pokemon?

Feb 19th, 2010, 5:40:54 PM	#6
eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,695	@Diesel: I think that the current OU Speed tiers can be used as a reasonable guideline, they include all of the threats you are likely to encounter reasonably often or may have to prepare for, but don't include the extremely rare or outclassed Pokemon. It's not a watertight basis for choosing whether every single Pokemon should be in or not, but some degree of subjectivity is to be expected unless we want to base them purely of usage stats and update them every month. Basically, threats that it would be useful for UU players to be able to see should be listed. And the list should be as short as possible in order to be easy to navigate and read. So, remove anything not relevant to the metagame, add anything that is. Use common sense to decide how relevant is relevant. __________________ For people who like storing things: The Box Reading and LC? LCF, LC Guide, LC Analyses Good channels: #littlecup, #C&C, #1v1, others And for SCMS editors: SCMS group ete on IRC. Goodbye Smogon. Good luck, was fun while it lasted. Last edited by eric the espeon; Oct 31st, 2010 at 1:34:10 PM.

Mar 24th, 2010, 8:04:35 AM	#9
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	Agree Deletions: 493 / Persian / 115 / Neutral / +1 / 252 Persian is basically completely outclassed by Ambipom in the first place and isn’t used much \| Persian \| Usage \| 1756 \| 1.4 \| Scarf isn’t used much out of those Persian \| Persian \| Item \| Choice Scarf \| 15.9 \| plus it sucks… 478 / Mantine / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252 Mantine is barely used \| Mantine \| Usage \| 840 \| 0.6 \| Swift Swim is used less \| Mantine \| Ability \| Swift Swim \| 22.6 \| and it’s completely outclassed by other Swift Swimmers 478 / Espeon / 110 / Neutral / +1 / 252 Alakazam 433 / Jynx / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252 Jynx isn’t used much (even though I think the Pokemon itself is pretty good) \| Jynx \| Usage \| 1700 \| 1.3 \| Scarf Jynx isn’t used much out of that (I don’t think Scarf Jynx is good—outclassed by other Scarfers and/or Psychics) \| Jynx \| Item \| Choice Scarf \| 22.5 \| it’s not used much and it’s not very good 352 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 0 Swift Swim Ludicolo… without Speed EVs… 350 / Espeon / 110 / +Speed / None / 252 Alakazam 339 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / None / 252 Adamant Dugtrio loses to Raikou 329 / Floatzel / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 Floatzel used outside of Rain (which is what +0 and 252 EVs implies) shouldn’t be Adamant because it needs to Taunt Froslass 329 / Raikou / 115 / Neutral / None / 252 \| Raikou \| Nature \| Modest \| 6.3 \| 299 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / None / 252 pre-Salac Linoone is pretty much irrelevant (note the additions section has post-Salac Linoone) 262 / Poliwrath / 70 / +Speed / None / 252 \| Poliwrath \| Nature \| Jolly \| 6.5 \| \| Poliwrath \| Speed EV \| None \| 71.0 \| this set kind of sucks too 223 / Gorebyss / 52 / +Speed / None / 252 non-Rain Gorebyss isn’t very relevant 216 / Hitmontop / 70 / Neutral / None / 160 \| Hitmontop \| Speed EV \| None \| 90.8 \| 206 / Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 0 \| Toxicroak \| Speed EV \| Max \| 88.7 \| \| Toxicroak \| Speed EV \| None \| 11.3 \| I think this set (SubPunch) is pretty good, but it’s not used much and even if it were used a lot, it’s not the kind of set that anyone would aim to outspeed 196 / Shedinja / 40 / +Speed / None / 252 \| Shedinja \| Nature \| Adamant \| 57.3 \| \| Shedinja \| Nature \| Lonely \| 37.2 \| there’s also no point to going +Speed with Shedinja Additions: 463 / Rotom / 91 / +Speed / +1 / 252 \| Rotom \| Item \| Choice Scarf \| 36.3 \| \| Rotom \| Nature \| Timid \| 62.8 \| this is an excellent Pokemon 459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 \| Moltres \| Nature \| Timid \| 33.6 \| \| Moltres \| Item \| Choice Scarf \| 17.2 \| not used too much but given Moltres’ popularity I think it warrants a spot. not a very strong agree. 392 / Rhyperior / 40 / +Speed / +2 / 252 \| Rhyperior \| Nature \| Jolly \| 17.4 \| \| Rhyperior \| Move \| Rock Polish \| 24.1 \| not very impressive by itself, but when you recognize that basically every Jolly Rhyperior should be Rock Polish, it means 70% of +2 Rhyperiors are also +Speed… 343 / Ursaring / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 \| Ursaring \| Ability \| Quick Feet \| 61.5 \| \| Ursaring \| Item \| Toxic Orb \| 63.2 \| 200 / Milotic / 81 / Neutral / None / 8 http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/milotic 199 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / None / 252 \| Aggron \| Nature \| Adamant \| 80.4 \| \| Aggron \| Item \| Choice Band \| 18.2 \| \| Aggron \| Item \| Leftovers \| 24.8 \| CB + Leftovers is enough Aggron that this is significant. knowing what RP Aggron’s stat before a Rock Polish is a useful benchmark too; note that this Speed stat is the single reason why the standard Milotic’s EVs are 8 Speed. 178 / Walrein / 65 / Neutral / None / 48 it’s the analysis spread \| Walrein \| Speed EV \| Very Low (<50) \| 30.8 \| 405 / Linoone / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 136 it’s the analysis spread \| Linoone \| Speed EV \| Medium (100-150) \| 75.3 \| \| Linoone \| Item \| Salac Berry \| 91.6 \| \| Linoone \| Nature \| Adamant \| 88.3 \| 398 / Aggron / 50 / Neutral / +2 / 252 \| Aggron \| Move \| Rock Polish \| 54.8 \| \| Aggron \| Nature \| Adamant \| 80.4 \| 279 / Kangaskhan / 90 / Neutral / 252 \| Kangaskhan \| Nature \| Adamant \| 92.0 \| \| Kangaskhan \| Speed EV \| Max \| 22.1 \| max Speed isn’t used that much but I think it’s important enough to warrant a mention (even though the analysis says Jolly, it has Adamant slashed in) Disagree Additions: 524 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252 yeah this is mine but I meant without +Speed which is already in the article oops lol 343 / Crawdaunt / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252 lol this is mine too I dunno what I was thinking no one uses this. not a very strong opposition though.

Mar 26th, 2010, 5:24:04 AM	#11
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,604 Location: Chicago	it doesn't really matter whether you hit linoone before it belly drums or after it belly drums on the same turn. if you hit it before, then if it does enough damage it can't drum. if you hit it afterwards, it dies. same difference basically. linoone isn't trying to avoid a hit when it belly drums; it's trying to do it on a setup condition that will let it take less than 50% and not receive a status condition. it only matters for other pokemon cause they can do damage or sub up or whatever. regardless, the analysis ev spread is 136 speed adamant, not 252 speed adamant

Sep 16th, 2010, 8:44:38 AM	#15
YaM Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 322	459 / Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252 459 is missing for the article on-site. and 118 / Umbreon / 65 / -Speed; 0 IV / None / 0 should be removed __________________ Uses themed teams Highest Gen 4 UU Ranking - 17th on Leaderboard

Sep 16th, 2010, 9:24:15 AM	#16
eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,695	Sorry for not getting round to this. Feel free to bug me a lot if I do something like this again. __________________ For people who like storing things: The Box Reading and LC? LCF, LC Guide, LC Analyses Good channels: #littlecup, #C&C, #1v1, others And for SCMS editors: SCMS group ete on IRC. Goodbye Smogon. Good luck, was fun while it lasted.

Oct 9th, 2010, 8:42:14 PM	#18
YaM Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 322	oh yeah and erm... the errors I pointed out haven't been corrected. __________________ Uses themed teams Highest Gen 4 UU Ranking - 17th on Leaderboard