Eviolite - Page 18

Yp327 · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:24:18 AM

Would wynaut with evolution stone in LC be a viable option?

Also just in case anyone who didn't read previous 17 pages of this thread i feel like the best users of this item would be
nosepass, dusclops, shieldon, metang, bronzor, togetic, bayleef, wartortle, lileep, and likitung along with the pokemon discussed on the first page because of their decent bulk(above 75 base in both defenses) would love an item like this in LC or if they wanna try to find a niche in other tiers.

Thorhammer · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:32:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat GravityZero

Dotekkotsu has lower speed by 5 points and lower sp. def by 10. The 5 HP Dotekkotsu has isn't the same, because every sp. def point is *1.5. The 5 Atk points doesn't really matter since you'll be able to ohko everything if successful.

That's not how it works. HP and SpD are multiplied for overall special defensive capabilities, so it doesn't matter which one is being multiplied.

GravityZero · Oct 19th, 2010, 3:55:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

That's not how it works. HP and SpD are multiplied for overall special defensive capabilities, so it doesn't matter which one is being multiplied.

Evolution Stone effectively makes every 1 sp.def point into 1.5 sp.def points. So if it's 5 base hp vs. 10 base sp.def, it's actually 5 base hp vs 15 base sp.def, and worse, Dotekkotsu has 5 less base speed, so unless you don't invest in speed, those 5 hp points are flying out the window anyway. I admit Kotsu's Drain Punch is pimptastic, but on a Guts set, Machoke ftw.

Anyway, I've noticed my fighting types getting their faces smash by the stronger water/fire STABs during weather, so I've begun running something else:

...

~~PallyHeroRush52~~ · Oct 19th, 2010, 4:05:53 PM

Are you sure it works for Pokemon like Porygon2 and Chansey? They were fully evolved in previous generations and their stats reflect that.

Naxte · Oct 19th, 2010, 4:09:39 PM

^Yes, it was tested and works on them just fine, as they aren't NFEs in Gen V--the fact that they were fully evolved at one time is completely irrelevant.

DDRMaster · Oct 19th, 2010, 4:37:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Yp327

Would wynaut with evolution stone in LC be a viable option?

I think Wynaut might rather have Berry Juice or Custap Berry. The former will nearly heal all of its HP while the latter lets it take another Pokemon out with Destiny Bond.

IceBeam946 · Oct 19th, 2010, 4:41:23 PM

Would Monmen (the pre-evo of Erufuun) be any good? It gets access to all of its older brother's moves including Taunt, Leech Seed, Substitute, Stun Spore, etc.) and its Mischevious Heart ability. Would it actually be bulkier than Erufuun or possibly used in the lower tiers?

Not Scicky · Oct 19th, 2010, 4:52:57 PM

Eh, Monmen's defenses with this just hit 40/115/100, not terrible but nothing amazing, Erufuun's are 60/85/75, I guess it's better than most Mischievous Heart users :/

Also jesus christ Gravity, Lickitung is a freaking boss, how many pokemon can sweep with 55/60/30 offensive stats ahahahaha

IceBug · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:19:06 PM

So I've actually had a few chances to test Lairon, and I have to say, first, it can't pull off Heavy Bomber. However, thanks to my switching of sets/abilities, I figured out Rock Polish Larion can actually put a dent in quite a few things, especially because, with Sturdy, you can survive a hit on one of those crippling x4 weaknesses and still live (bar entry hazards).

Fun facts:

-Lairon can utterly destroy Shanderaa, as it can survive a Fire Blast or Overheat with plenty of health and OHKO back with Stone Edge. And god forbid they're locked into Shadow Ball, you can get off three RP's and still be at >1/2 health, then proceed to bust Shanderaa and continue beating up anything not packing Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave (it will survive several hits of any other priority move).

-Trick Room teams love it when you switch in Lairon, because with no speed investment it can outrun most everything under TR and resists many of the common types TR teams pack (Psychic and Ghost).

-Paired with Balloon Desukan (pretty non-standard, but it beats up Dory for you with Mummy and burn from WoW, so what's not to love?), which is immune to both of Lairon's exploitable weaknesses, you can switch the two back and forth to cover each other's weaknesses (as mentioned before, Lairon can soak up Ghost and Dark moves until the end of time, even from something as powerful as Shanderaa) while burning and Hazing everything that moves. Shadow Tag Shanderaa trap-kill Desukan with Shadow Ball? Good, Lairon gets to set up free.

-Ditto doesn't have Sturdy, so anyone foolish enough to switch Ditto in on Lairon will most certainly die, while you hang on through the Scarfed Earthquake.

So, that's kinda it right now, it's been pretty good in practice, thinking about adding some sort of healing support to the team so I can abuse Sturdy and get rid of burns (which hurt Lairons already barely there sweeping capabilities). I'll post the set if anyone cares to take a look (or, y'know, you could search it in the usage statistics somewhere below Starly, and take the set from there, because as far as I can tell I'm the sole Evo Stone Lairon user).

lati0s · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:20:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy

This observation holds true whether the Pokemon holds the Pre-Evo Stone or not. Unless you want to focus on taking hits from only one side of the spectrum, HP is a better investment if you want to take hits in general.

Not necessarily, you will get the best use of your EVs if you make your HP about the sum of your defenses (defenses calculated without prevo stone).

Not Scicky · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:21:01 PM

He's got 90 attack though... how hard does he really hit? :/

BurningMan · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:31:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Scicky

He's got 90 attack though... how hard does he really hit? :/

i guess with a 150 BP move still pretty hard^^

nattorei without any offensive evs and 90 base attack hits pretty hard with both gyro ball and power whip since both are 120 BP (well gyro ball not always but in 90% of the cases).
There arent many sweepers that would like to switch into these moves as long s they aren`t resistant.

GravityZero · Oct 19th, 2010, 5:33:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Scicky

Also jesus christ Gravity, Lickitung is a freaking boss, how many pokemon can sweep with 55/60/30 offensive stats ahahahaha

Yeah! Wall, setup, and tanksweep; never thought I'd say these words in Gen V. I'm finding these these Bulk Up prevo-stoners are completely Ditto immune since Ditto can't copy the 1.5x defenses, and that's why Ditto only does 16% while i do 45%. Since all of my prevos are slower than 241 when scarfed, even if Ditto haxed a breakout like with No Guard Machoke, it'd be killed by something else. I ended that Ditto match with the vast majority of my HP, I think Ditto actually makes my setups easier.

However, I must note: Birijon is EVIL. That thing can come in on Lickitung, SD up, and smash it's face in. Typhlosion's full HP Eruptions also do around 40% damage, so it's a counter if Typhlosion gets in on the first turn after i rest. I guess Heatran would be the same, but I've never run into it using eruption on lickitung. I might wanna run SR to stop Eruption and Water Spout from ruining my setups. (octillery? lol)

What I've noticed is that I have nothing to fear except strong special attacks, once i'm at +2 scizor's superpower does like 26% to lickitung.

I'm looking for a good Bulker/Curser/CMer who resists Water and Fire... then I'd really have a unkillable setup poke. And then it'd be uber within a week ;.; Speaking of, has any actually run a test on Phione w/ prevo stone ingame?

Not Scicky · Oct 19th, 2010, 6:49:53 PM

I'd say Slowpoke but his defenses are pretty much on the same level as Slowbro/king's.

Purotooga's got a 4x fire resist but he's not that great otherwise. Really high defense but eh.

Waaailmer? Defenses aren't that great since they just hit 130/78/78 but it should be able to take a few hits.

It has pressure too, which means Ditto will run out of PP for it's move in 3 turns if it's scarfed.

Wailmer @ Evolution Stone
-Curse
-Bounce
-Dive
-Rest/Aqua Ring?

Might work, 70 base attack is decent to work with too.

breh · Oct 19th, 2010, 8:27:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Scicky

I'd say Slowpoke but his defenses are pretty much on the same level as Slowbro/king's.

Purotooga's got a 4x fire resist but he's not that great otherwise. Really high defense but eh.

Waaailmer? Defenses aren't that great since they just hit 130/78/78 but it should be able to take a few hits.

It has pressure too, which means Ditto will run out of PP for it's move in 3 turns if it's scarfed.

Wailmer @ Evolution Stone
-Curse
-Bounce
-Dive
-Rest/Aqua Ring?

Might work, 70 base attack is decent to work with too.

Just a note its defences are actually 130/70/76.5 assuming max investment in SpD and no investment in Def... but whatever

The moveset is also a bit weird IMO. Why not just use Waterfall and Return, like this?

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Toxic / Return (Toxic for the higher tiers (Burungeru..; I could care less about Tentacruel or Empoleon honestly), Return for the lower ones)
move 4: Rest
item: Prevo Stone
ability: Water Veil / Pressure (I still don't understand what's so special about stalling out Ditto; it's not like Ditto can really do much vs. a Wailmer without the prevo stone... Plus it's fun to screw with Burungeru.
nature: Sassy (or Calm IIRC if you really think that it will outspeed anything)
evs: 252 HP / 4 Att (or Def) / 252 SpD

Also unfotunately it gets hit with a 100 power grass knot :(

Leech Seed from Erufuun and Nattorei are also annoying.

Not Scicky · Oct 19th, 2010, 8:44:20 PM

Base stats are calculated off of maximum's, Bounce is meant for hitting grass types harder and Dive aids pressure-stall.

Thorhammer · Oct 19th, 2010, 8:45:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat GravityZero

Evolution Stone effectively makes every 1 sp.def point into 1.5 sp.def points. So if it's 5 base hp vs. 10 base sp.def, it's actually 5 base hp vs 15 base sp.def, and worse, Dotekkotsu has 5 less base speed, so unless you don't invest in speed, those 5 hp points are flying out the window anyway. I admit Kotsu's Drain Punch is pimptastic, but on a Guts set, Machoke ftw.

In a sense, yes, it makes every Defense and Sp. Defense point worth 1.5 points. However, you could also look at it from the perspective that it makes every HP point into 1.5 HP points instead. In terms of raw defenses, it's the exact same thing.

Machoke certainly has slightly better special defensive capabilities regardless, but it's just because he has more of an increase in the lower stat. The stone magnifies the difference, but it doesn't cause it.

TorchicBlaziken · Oct 19th, 2010, 9:41:31 PM

Half of me is saying "Yay! Now I can use Porygon2 better in OU!"

And the other half is saying "This stinks. Now we can't use Chansey in UU."

DreamWeaver · Oct 19th, 2010, 9:52:25 PM

Did anyone run any calcs on Clefairy? I'm curious to see if it will be better than Clefable.

GravityZero · Oct 19th, 2010, 10:32:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Breludicolo

Just a note its defences are actually 130/70/76.5 assuming max investment in SpD and no investment in Def... but whatever

The moveset is also a bit weird IMO. Why not just use Waterfall and Return, like this?

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Toxic / Return (Toxic for the higher tiers (Burungeru..; I could care less about Tentacruel or Empoleon honestly), Return for the lower ones)
move 4: Rest
item: Prevo Stone
ability: Water Veil / Pressure (I still don't understand what's so special about stalling out Ditto; it's not like Ditto can really do much vs. a Wailmer without the prevo stone... Plus it's fun to screw with Burungeru.
nature: Sassy (or Calm IIRC if you really think that it will outspeed anything)
evs: 252 HP / 4 Att (or Def) / 252 SpD

Also unfotunately it gets hit with a 100 power grass knot :(

Leech Seed from Erufuun and Nattorei are also annoying.

Waterfall / Dive and Return covers a lot but leaves Water Absorb Burungeru walling you completely (Poliwhirl has the same issue). Empoleon could annoy you too. Toxic's ok, only things with Water Absorb and Rest simulataneously should wall it. Wailmer's biggest issue is that it's walled and killed by Rotom-W no matter what, but it's certainly a good option for the PP stalling aspect at endgame (i've just been through hell in 110 turns... bliss is a whore). I personally would run Water/Bounce for maximum PP stalling, like Scicky suggested.

I've created every viable prevo setup i could think of by scanning the pokedex. I added Eevee, even though it's nonviable I <3 Eevee.

Eevee

Vigoroth

GutsChoke

Dotekkotsu

HaxChoke

Lickitung

Rin-chan

Riguree

Tesshiido

Dusclops

Sealeo

Munchlax

CanadiEntei · Oct 19th, 2010, 10:33:59 PM

How will Dragonair perform with this? Ivysaur? Marshtomp? Metang?

GravityZero · Oct 19th, 2010, 10:52:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat CanadiEntei

How will Dragonair perform with this? Ivysaur? Marshtomp? Metang?

Ivysaur has major coverage issues, but I guess subseed + sleep powder + hp fire would have few problems in the sun.

Never tried Dragonair because Sleep Talk and Marvel Scale are illegal.

Marshtomp has decent defenses, and could run a curse set that covers everything but Rotom-W. Sadly, this means a Drought set, as risking a H Pump to the face aint cool.

Metang, never tried it. The only stat up moves it has are agility, claw sharpen, and iron defense, so i'd be clueless.

**cookie** · Oct 19th, 2010, 11:04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat CanadiEntei

How will Dragonair perform with this? Ivysaur? Marshtomp? Metang?

metang cannot hold items.

breh · Oct 19th, 2010, 11:18:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat cookie

metang cannot hold items.

wut

Anyway I don't know about Metang... AMAZING (60 / 160 (uninvested) / 145 (app, max investment)) defenses but no recovery ouside of rest, like 2 support move (SR, which is cool, and toxic lol) no setup move...

IceBeam946 · Oct 20th, 2010, 12:23:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat GravityZero

Ivysaur has major coverage issues, but I guess subseed + sleep powder + hp fire would have few problems in the sun.

I would think Bayleef would be superior to Ivysaur in a walling set. Better Defenses and access to better moves defensively.

Oct 19th, 2010, 5:24:18 AM	#426
Yp327 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 19 Seattle, WA	Would wynaut with evolution stone in LC be a viable option? Also just in case anyone who didn't read previous 17 pages of this thread i feel like the best users of this item would be nosepass, dusclops, shieldon, metang, bronzor, togetic, bayleef, wartortle, lileep, and likitung along with the pokemon discussed on the first page because of their decent bulk(above 75 base in both defenses) would love an item like this in LC or if they wanna try to find a niche in other tiers. __________________ Ononokus break walls with Taunt, boost Speed w/D.D., K.O. w/o set up, takes 50%-60% from standard Bronzong's Explosion! If anyone needs me to test anything on B/W PM me! Last edited by Yp327; Oct 19th, 2010 at 5:36:59 AM. Reason: Did not want to double post.

Oct 19th, 2010, 4:09:39 PM	#430
Naxte Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,320	^Yes, it was tested and works on them just fine, as they aren't NFEs in Gen V--the fact that they were fully evolved at one time is completely irrelevant. __________________ Chirp.

Oct 19th, 2010, 4:52:57 PM	#433
Not Scicky Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,311 Bland Juicer	Eh, Monmen's defenses with this just hit 40/115/100, not terrible but nothing amazing, Erufuun's are 60/85/75, I guess it's better than most Mischievous Heart users :/ Also jesus christ Gravity, Lickitung is a freaking boss, how many pokemon can sweep with 55/60/30 offensive stats ahahahaha __________________ And I was gone.

Oct 19th, 2010, 5:21:01 PM	#436
Not Scicky Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,311 Bland Juicer	He's got 90 attack though... how hard does he really hit? :/ __________________ And I was gone.

Oct 19th, 2010, 6:49:53 PM	#439
Not Scicky Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,311 Bland Juicer	I'd say Slowpoke but his defenses are pretty much on the same level as Slowbro/king's. Purotooga's got a 4x fire resist but he's not that great otherwise. Really high defense but eh. Waaailmer? Defenses aren't that great since they just hit 130/78/78 but it should be able to take a few hits. It has pressure too, which means Ditto will run out of PP for it's move in 3 turns if it's scarfed. Wailmer @ Evolution Stone -Curse -Bounce -Dive -Rest/Aqua Ring? Might work, 70 base attack is decent to work with too. __________________ And I was gone.

Oct 19th, 2010, 4:05:53 PM	#429
~~PallyHeroRush52~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 67	Are you sure it works for Pokemon like Porygon2 and Chansey? They were fully evolved in previous generations and their stats reflect that.

Oct 19th, 2010, 4:41:23 PM	#432
IceBeam946 Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 44	Would Monmen (the pre-evo of Erufuun) be any good? It gets access to all of its older brother's moves including Taunt, Leech Seed, Substitute, Stun Spore, etc.) and its Mischevious Heart ability. Would it actually be bulkier than Erufuun or possibly used in the lower tiers?

Oct 19th, 2010, 5:19:06 PM	#434
IceBug Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 536	So I've actually had a few chances to test Lairon, and I have to say, first, it can't pull off Heavy Bomber. However, thanks to my switching of sets/abilities, I figured out Rock Polish Larion can actually put a dent in quite a few things, especially because, with Sturdy, you can survive a hit on one of those crippling x4 weaknesses and still live (bar entry hazards). Fun facts: -Lairon can utterly destroy Shanderaa, as it can survive a Fire Blast or Overheat with plenty of health and OHKO back with Stone Edge. And god forbid they're locked into Shadow Ball, you can get off three RP's and still be at >1/2 health, then proceed to bust Shanderaa and continue beating up anything not packing Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave (it will survive several hits of any other priority move). -Trick Room teams love it when you switch in Lairon, because with no speed investment it can outrun most everything under TR and resists many of the common types TR teams pack (Psychic and Ghost). -Paired with Balloon Desukan (pretty non-standard, but it beats up Dory for you with Mummy and burn from WoW, so what's not to love?), which is immune to both of Lairon's exploitable weaknesses, you can switch the two back and forth to cover each other's weaknesses (as mentioned before, Lairon can soak up Ghost and Dark moves until the end of time, even from something as powerful as Shanderaa) while burning and Hazing everything that moves. Shadow Tag Shanderaa trap-kill Desukan with Shadow Ball? Good, Lairon gets to set up free. -Ditto doesn't have Sturdy, so anyone foolish enough to switch Ditto in on Lairon will most certainly die, while you hang on through the Scarfed Earthquake. So, that's kinda it right now, it's been pretty good in practice, thinking about adding some sort of healing support to the team so I can abuse Sturdy and get rid of burns (which hurt Lairons already barely there sweeping capabilities). I'll post the set if anyone cares to take a look (or, y'know, you could search it in the usage statistics somewhere below Starly, and take the set from there, because as far as I can tell I'm the sole Evo Stone Lairon user).

Oct 19th, 2010, 8:44:20 PM	#441
Not Scicky Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,311 Bland Juicer	Base stats are calculated off of maximum's, Bounce is meant for hitting grass types harder and Dive aids pressure-stall. __________________ And I was gone.

Oct 19th, 2010, 9:41:31 PM	#443
TorchicBlaziken Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,225 Use sunscreen!	Half of me is saying "Yay! Now I can use Porygon2 better in OU!" And the other half is saying "This stinks. Now we can't use Chansey in UU."

Oct 19th, 2010, 9:52:25 PM	#444
DreamWeaver Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 16	Did anyone run any calcs on Clefairy? I'm curious to see if it will be better than Clefable.

Oct 19th, 2010, 10:33:59 PM	#446
CanadiEntei Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 167 Edmonton, Alberta	How will Dragonair perform with this? Ivysaur? Marshtomp? Metang? __________________ Working on resets of Pt, SS, W, for registry with my new DSi.