Salamence

[Lucindril]

Not really relevant to the conversation, but I've found MixMence to be more effective this Generation, at least for me. Dragon Dancing just allows the opponent to tease you by switching in and out their Steel-types, preventing you from using Outrage and confining you to Fire Blast and Earthquake, which have a far lower damage roll and will often get your Salamence killed by residual damage and/or misprediction before you can seriously hurt anything. Most people expect a Dragon Dance and switch to something to (p)haze it, only to get a Draco Meteor to the face. And if they then switch to a special wall when it's switched back in again, you can nail them with Outrage. It's pretty effective.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat the kbxe

I seriously don't understand that system.

This means that just because some Pokémon like for example Latios isn't used much, then it ends in UU? Can Latios be in UU? No. So this system doesn't seem to be working well does it?

UU stands for Under-Used. That means it isn't used as often as the Pokémon in OU (Over-Used). If it's too powerful for UU, but not popular enough for OU, then it goes to BL. So yes, that's exactly how it's supposed to work.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat the kbxe

I seriously don't understand that system.

This means that just because some Pokémon like for example Latios isn't used much, then it ends in UU? Can Latios be in UU? No. So this system doesn't seem to be working well does it?

There's an ubers version of UU, its called BL.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat the kbxe

I seriously don't understand that system.

This means that just because some Pokémon like for example Latios isn't used much, then it ends in UU? Can Latios be in UU? No. So this system doesn't seem to be working well does it?

Latios could hypothetically fall to UU. However, it's currently one of the most used Pokemon in OU, so I think it's safe to say that that won't happen anytime this generation. And as TM13 said, even if it did fall to UU based on usage, it's highly unlikely that it would remain allowed there, so it wouldn't stay UU for long.

With that in mind, what exactly doesn't seem to be working well with the system?

[Dan Dan]

I'm sure the useage % needed for something to "become" UU will be much lower than 4th Gen, so it's unlikely stuff like Mence which isn't used as much as other Dragons (for whatever reason) won't end up there. At least I'd hope so.

[chrisrandom9]

Pretty sure it was Latias who was in UU before it was banned :/

[Cuiv]

Originally Posted by Fat chrisrandom9

Pretty sure it was Latias who was in UU before it was banned :/

lolno. Latias was always in the top five OU for its duration unbanned last gen.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Cuiv

lolno. Latias was always in the top five OU for its duration unbanned last gen.

He's talking about the Official Server, where Latias got demoted to UU (and banned shortly after) in B/W.

[Dr. Alex]

Salamence in UU would rape through everything. It's sheer power as a mixed attacker will not keep it in UU. BL at the very least.

[the kbxe]

I'm just saying that basing the tier system on usage is strange.

For example a strong OU pokémon goes to UU just because he isn't used much.

But everyone knows its too powerfull for that tier so I don't get how this is based on usage and not power...

[Arc Tech]

There are far too many factors to do it any other way. Also, many times theorymon has been dead wrong- rhyperior, electivire, heracross dropping to UU last gen. (Well he was UU for awhile until he was banned 5-4 by a 9-person council just like mence- he, despite people saying he would be clearly too much, obviously wasn't- the vote was 5-4, after all). I suppose a better example would be alakazam.

And if it is a good pokemon, it isn't going to get low enough use to make it UU.

[UnhandledException]

Originally Posted by Fat the kbxe

I'm just saying that basing the tier system on usage is strange.

For example a strong OU pokémon goes to UU just because he isn't used much.

But everyone knows its too powerfull for that tier so I don't get how this is based on usage and not power...

People will use more powerful Pokemon more often, so they will remain OU. If people don't use something much and it drops into UU even if its too powerful for that tier, it gets banned to BL. Simple as that.

As for Mence, its not going to be uu anytime soon. I see a reasonable amount of Mence(almost about the same as DNite) on the smogon server at least. I don't care about the PO statistics since those have got nothing to do with smogon's server.

[VaporeonIce]

It seems to make perfect sense, given that the tier names are "OverUSED" and "UnderUSED." Back in RSE, the tiers were subjective, so people just put relatively bad Pokemon in UU, and everyone made the association "UU Pokemon = crappy Pokemon." In DPPt, the tiers actually started being based on usage, and hey, some relatively strong Pokemon were in there (everyone gawked at the idea of Milotic being UU, but that eventually started making sense to people).

A power creep in OU results in a power creep in UU, and some Pokemon that were clearly OU in the last gen fall into UU in this gen (again, think of Milotic from Gen 3 to Gen 4). I think it seems like a pretty natural progression for Snorlax to fall into UU, as it wasn't even that used in OU at the end of last gen. Once things stabilize, we'll see what UU looks like; certain Pokemon will get banished to BL, certain Pokemon will remain UU, and the tier will look very different than it did last gen. People seem to be all up in arms about the tier system, saying it doesn't make any sense, before things have even remotely stabilized. And what seems so out of place? Nothing, except for the theoretical possibility of Salamence falling into UU (even though it could easily become borderline if that happened). But 1) I just don't think it'll happen (Salamence does a mixed set better than any other dragon this side of Rayquaza), and 2) there are more good Pokemon out there...did you expect UU would be the same this gen as last, only with a few new Pokemon and finally having Electivire and Weavile in it?

[Benlisted]

Basing the tiers purely of usage does not make much sense, you are correct. But with BL taken into account, it creates a metagame just fine. The usage basis of it is primarily for creating the initial meta and slightly for changing the tiers over time. BL as UU Ubers is the solution to broken things dropping into UU, and it works out fairly perfectly. Things dropping isn't ideal in terms of a stable meta, butif not usage what else would the initial UU list be based upon? Not to mention many players enjoyed the shaking up of the meta it caused last gen.

[JSND]

power creep this gen isnt to big compared to gen 4 since the only new power move was HJK. This gen is all about bulk and something without THAT or some special asset(like dory's insane clean-up, revenge killer, nearly uncrippleable, rapid spin, and higher than skarm special bulk) will always fall. Mence has acceptable bulk but he suffer from some speedy threats particularly Virizion and return of latis and garchomp.

But i still think mence will be OU though

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat the kbxe

I'm just saying that basing the tier system on usage is strange.

For example a strong OU pokémon goes to UU just because he isn't used much.

But everyone knows its too powerfull for that tier so I don't get how this is based on usage and not power...

How else do you judge power? Base stats alone don't do it, certainly. Type advantages and movesets are too subjective to make any sort of rule. More "powerful" Pokémon will naturally be used more often, so usage is the best way to do it. And if it happens to be too strong for UU (since it's a different metagame with different threats), then that's what BL is for.

[MtNiesen]

i'm finding it kind of amusing that people are discusing how tiering works in a thread with the goal of talking about salamence....

and really how many people have use moxie? in gen 4 i found intimidate underwhelming because your opponet woud switch out, and even now, every battle i've used mence, moxie has done more than intimidate

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Originally Posted by Fat MtNiesen

i'm finding it kind of amusing that people are discusing how tiering works in a thread with the goal of talking about salamence....

and really how many people have use moxie? in gen 4 i found intimidate underwhelming because your opponet woud switch out, and even now, every battle i've used mence, moxie has done more than intimidate

Intimidate makes it easier for Mence to set up, not to mention Mence can't use Outrage with Moxie.

[Aeroblacktyl]

Who cares about Outrage? After one DClaw kill you'll have the power of a non-stuck Outrage anyways. Or you get a free +1 boost by just killing a 14% sacrifice someone sent in to try to stall out Life Orb. You should really only be setting up on choice Ground moves or unboosted resisted attacks as it is anyways

[MtNiesen]

the main reason i use moxie is because of the moves i use, if your goal is a mixed sweeper, (i use fire blast, draco miss, dragon claw, and levitate magnet) you don't set up, and your goal is to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible.
and in the fairly common case that would get to the point at which outrage would confuse you, you have to sacrifice a fair ammount of power to garentee not killing yourself (refering to lum berry)
personally, salamece relies more on a fast-paced, aggresive presence, if you want to tank and sweep, use dnite. and scince when do you switch salamence on a poke that intimidate would make a huge difference? and on top of that, your opponent is almost gantureed to switch out to somethig that can handle mence anyway, intimidate is useful, it's just not salamence's style....

[CWW]

Originally Posted by Fat MtNiesen

your opponent is almost gantureed to switch out to somethig that can handle mence anyway

How would Moxie fare better than Intimidate in that case? Moxie doesn't do anything unless you knock something out. Intimidate on the other hand impacts the battle immediately.

Keeping offensive Mence healthy is a challenge without Intimidate. Remember that team preview allows people to predict it come in on ground attacks. Moxie is awesome late game no doubt, but I like the ability to come in the early and mid game on STAB fighting, bug and grass attacks without getting as much as a scratch. It's also a good safety net in case, say, Conkeldurr chooses Stone Edge over its other moves on the switch.

Really, Mence can fit many roles, and with the introduction of Moxie people will have even more options. It's just that some of us like the versatility of Intimidate.

[MtNiesen]

Originally Posted by Fat CWW

How would Moxie fare better than Intimidate in that case? Moxie doesn't do anything unless you knock something out. Intimidate on the other hand impacts the battle immediately.

you have a point, but a simpler way of my argument is just that if you want to go a bulky route, dnite's out classing you, moxie mence is more of: i don't give a rat's ass about my life i just want to slaughter everyting approach.

if want a dragon that sets up on someone, dnite is much better suited for that role, heck even chomp is better at that. because i enjoy using "outclassed" pokemon, i learned that the best route has, is, and pretty much will always be, that you have to one up the compitition by producing either a style, or tools that the others can't. intimidate is good for swithcing in, howver, as soon as your opponent switches out, you just lost that intimidate attack drop, while moxie can help annother sweeper by forcing mences counters to actually take a hit or the mence gets an attack boost.

[IcyMan28]

Dragonite is far from being superior as a set-up sweeper, lol. Considering that you have to keep it at perfect health despite Stealth Rock, Sand, and incoming attacks, I'd rather go with Salamence.

The advantages of Moxie have been discussed to death - if you want a better chance of setting up, use Intimidate. If you want to plow through everything, go with Moxie.

[JSND]

Dragonite is just on par with salamence. Mence was a beast even in this gen. I mean if 90 base SpA is good enough to be a game changing ground breaking dominating special sweeper in this gen with so-so bulk and worse typing, not to mention practically useless ability, why cant salamence do the same with 110 SpA, better STAB, slightly less speed, and ability to go mixed while focusing in clearly superior physical side ?

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeroblacktyl

Who cares about Outrage?

My thoughts exactly. Dragon Claw is just as good and you get to switch attacks and not lose your boosts because of switching out to avoid hitting yourself. People keep bringing Outrage up, but Salamence doesn't mind at all.