Flat Battle / Random Battle Discussion

[Sprocket]

What are Flat Battles?

In Generation V games, Flat Battles are an official ruleset built into the game for battling other players. You can activate Flat Battles when you battle someone through the Union Room and over Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection. It is also the official format of the Random Battle mode.

Flat battles differ greatly from open battles and IR battles (from using the C-Gear), and from previous game rules in many ways.

In short, here are the rules:

• Number of Pokemon: You can bring up to 6 Pokemon with you. For the battle, however, you will pick 3 for Singles, 4 for Doubles and Rotation, and 6 for Triples, and the remaining Pokemon will not be used. You must always bring the minimum number of Pokemon.
• Team Preview: Team Preview is always on. You see your opponent's team before you pick your Pokemon.
• Pokemon Level: All Pokemon above level 50 become level 50 for the duration of the fight. Pokemon below level 50 do not have their level adjusted.
• Special Clause: Special Pokemon are banned. Full list is below.
• Species Clause: No two Pokemon on your team may have the same Species number
• Item Clause: No two Pokemon on your team may have the same Item equipped
• Wonder Launcher: Wonder Launcher use is optional.

Number of Pokemon & Team Preview

Depending on the format, you must bring a minimum number of Pokemon with you into the battle room. From that list, you will see all of the Pokemon your opponent brought, and you will pick the appropriate number of Pokemon from your list. You can also decide the order that your Pokemon will be arranged in your Party.

For Singles battles, you must bring 3 to 6 Pokemon, and you will pick 3 of those Pokemon to battle.

For Doubles battles, you must bring 4 to 6 Pokemon, and you will pick 4 of those Pokemon to battle.

For Triples battles, you must bring 6 Pokemon. You will decide the order that all six Pokemon are called out in.

For Rotation battles, you must bring 4 to 6 Pokemon, and you will pick 4 of those Pokemon to battle.

Team Preview is always on, and cannot be turned off.


If this doesn't make sense, lets consider this singles battle example of Ash Ketchum and Gary Oak.

Ash Ketchum brings into the battle room the following Pokemon: Pikachu, Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Snorlax, Lapras

Gary Oak brings into the battle room the following Pokemon: Exeggutor, Arcanine, Machamp, Tyranitar, Pidgeot, Rhyperior

Due to Team Preview, both sides get to see each others' teams before they pick their three Pokemon.

Having looked at the opposing team, Ash decides to bring out Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise. Likewise, Gary decides to bring out Exeggutor, Arcanine, and Machamp. The remaining Pokemon (Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras, Tyranitar, Pidgeot, and Rhyperior) do not get used at all.


Pokemon Level

All Pokemon fight at level 50 or below. Pokemon that are level 51 or higher are reduced to level 50 for the duration of the fight. Pokemon that are level 49 and below do not have their level changed. Any moves that your Pokemon know will not be forgotten, even if they cannot legally learn them at level 50.

For example, if I bring a level 100 Azelf, it will become level 50 for the battle.


Special Clause
(AKA the Ban List)

Special Pokemon are banned. Essentially this is all Version Mascot Legendaries, other ultra-powerful legendaries, and event-only Pokemon. The full list is:

#150 Mewtwo
#151 Mew
#249 Lugia
#250 Ho-Oh
#251 Celebi
#382 Kyogre
#383 Groudon
#384 Rayquaza
#385 Jirachi
#386 Deoxys
#483 Dialga
#484 Palkia
#487 Giratina
#489 Phione
#490 Manaphy
#491 Darkrai
#492 Shaymin
#493 Arceus
#494 Victini
#643 Reshiram
#644 Zekrom
#646 Kyurem
#647 Keldeo
#648 Meloetta
#649 Genesect

Species Clause

No two Pokemon on the same team may have the same Species number.

For example, you can only carry a single Rotom on your team, since all Rotom forms have the same Species number.

Item Clause

No two Pokemon on the same team may hold the same Item at the start of battle.

(Presumably moves like Trick will bypass this rule).

Wonder Launcher

Use of the Wonder Launcher is optional in a Flat Battle.

Other

Since this is an official Nintendo Meta-Game, other rules that Smogon battlers follow in Standard OU don't apply:

Sleep Clause is off (Any number of Pokemon can be put to sleep)
OHKO Clause is off (OHKO moves like Fissure are legal)
Evasion Clause is off (Double Team and Minimize are legal)
There is no Ability ban list (Drizzle + Swift Swim, Inconsistent, etc, are legal)

In essence, a level 50 Doubles flat battle is virtually identical to the 2009 to 2011 VGC (with species restrictions being the only differences), and Singles and Doubles Flat battles are nearly identical to the Battle Subway/Battle Frontier.

Aren't IR Battles Flat Battles?

NO! IR Battles (battles using the C-Gear) are NOT Flat Battles. They are Level 50 battles. In IR Battles, all Pokemon fight at level 50 regardless if they are above or below level 50, there is no team preview, no team selection process, etc.. The only similarity between an IR battle and a Flat Battle is that Pokemon above level 50 get de-leveled.

If you want to battle on WiFi, you must use these rules?

Thankfully, no. You can still battle using the "No Restrictions" ruleset. The only downside is that if you want to have a level 100 battle, you're required to have level 100 Pokemon.

Any other things to note?

Flat Battle format is the format used for the Global Union, notably the Random Battle format. It might be the format used for official Nintendo ladders. It's also very similar to various VGC formats.

It's likely the item Soul Dew is banned.

[guddagudda]

wait, what? if you want to battle on WiFi, you have to use these rules?

[Showsni]

No, you can also choose "No Restrictions," which has no restrictions.

[Synth_Metal]

Oh dear, no sleep or evasion clause x.x

[guddagudda]

thank you for the redundancy, i couldn't have grasped that it would have no restrictions with the name "no restrictions" without your help.

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Synth_Metal

Oh dear, no sleep or evasion clause x.x

One could certainly cause havoc with a lack of sleep clause in doubles and triples. Thankfully the only user of Dark Void is Smeargle in this ruleset, since Darkrai is banned.

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat guddagudda

thank you for the redundancy, i couldn't have grasped that it would have no restrictions with the name "no restrictions" without your help.

He wasn't referring to you, lol, he was talking about how Flat Battles wouldn't have Sleep/Evasion clauses.

[Ashenlock]

Sleep Clause is off (Any number of Pokemon can be put to sleep)

This is especially bad for double battles, with Dark Void. It's harder to set up a BP Agility-chain going to Breloom with 3 pokemon instead of 6, but Dark Void on Smeargle doesn't take any setup and is devastating. Fortunately, being only on Smeargle in the restricted battle, people will at least know to KO it first

[Sprocket]

On the other hand, this generation brought all sorts of toys that are specifically designed for doubles and triples battle, like Wide Guard (protect against multi-target attacks), Fast Guard (protect against priority moves), and After You. Not to mention Follow Me which has a +3 Priority.

Of course, Fake Out got upgraded to +3 Priority, so fast Fake Out users can outspeed even the fastest Follow Me users (unless the Follow Me user is scarfed).

As much as I like thinking about how difficult a Smeargle might or might not be to take down in doubles and triples, what kind of effect does a lack of Sleep Clause have in singles when you only have three Pokemon to pick and not six?

And what about the lack of common OU Pokemon, like Jirachi and Shaymin?

[PlatinumDude]

I like Flat Battle because I don't have to train my Pokemon up to very high levels (unless I have to get certain moves). But what I don't like is the lack of sleep/evasion/OHKO clause and Team Preview (which ruins the usefulness of Zoroark).

It's possible to have both players agree that only 1 Pokemon can be asleep and that Double Team and OHKO moves can't be used.

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by Fat PlatinumDude

It's possible to have both players agree that only 1 Pokemon can be asleep and that Double Team and OHKO moves can't be used.

Indeed, I'm sure the majority of players here would agree to that.

Just that people outside of the Smogon community probably won't.

[Kryzite]

Is there a ladder yet or when does that start? Can you even do ranked matches yet if there is one?

[Ashenlock]

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

On the other hand, this generation brought all sorts of toys that are specifically designed for doubles and triples battle, like Wide Guard (protect against multi-target attacks), Fast Guard (protect against priority moves), and After You. Not to mention Follow Me which has a +3 Priority.

Follow Me isn't a new move (I don't think that's what you meant anyway, but I had to make sure).

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Of course, Fake Out got upgraded to +3 Priority, so fast Fake Out users can outspeed even the fastest Follow Me users (unless the Follow Me user is scarfed).

Gamefreak must have gotten scared of molf party, which could guarantee Trick Room setup with a Sash-wearing Follow Me-using Smeargle. So they made Fake Out faster, then put another check in the form of Fast Guard. Fortunately it's more complicated than "X beats Y, Z beats X." Follow Me isn't necessarily obselete and is still an option if you're faster than the Fake Out-ers, and Fast Guard can protect against Fake Out but doesn't stop Taunt.

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

As much as I like thinking about how difficult a Smeargle might or might not be to take down in doubles and triples, what kind of effect does a lack of Sleep Clause have in singles when you only have three Pokemon to pick and not six?

I've never seen it done competitively, but I used a party of Uxie/Ninjask/Breloom to guarantee two stages of speed to Breloom safely in Diamond's Wifi tower. After that, it's cake, with poison heal compensating the loss of Substitute, plus Leech Seed, etc. That was against the AI, of course, who didn't switch, but that's the thing; without sleep clause whatever switches in is either going to get Spore'd or met with a Substitute, THEN Spore'd.

But I reiterate that I haven't done this competitively, and I'm sure there are a thousand small factors that would stop a setup like that. Many of them aren't available to OU pokemon or are undesirable on them, though, and a headstrong rush into battle isn't a good idea.

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by Fat PlatinumDude

I like Flat Battle because I don't have to train my Pokemon up to very high levels (unless I have to get certain moves). But what I don't like is the lack of sleep/evasion/OHKO clause and Team Preview (which ruins the usefulness of Zoroark).

It's possible to have both players agree that only 1 Pokemon can be asleep and that Double Team and OHKO moves can't be used.

This is a competitive website. Instead of making up house rules, try to think of ways to win within the rules of the metagame.

[PlatinumDude]

Originally Posted by Fat Firestorm

This is a competitive website. Instead of making up house rules, try to think of ways to win within the rules of the metagame.

Hmm...right.

Well, since there's no sleep/evasion/OHKO clause, I know that moves like Double Team/Sheer Cold are allowed. Those moves may take some luck to achieve to their fullest (trying to get up to +6 evasion with Double Team or outright KOing your opponent's team with whatever OHKO move you have), but it pays off in the end.

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat PlatinumDude

Hmm...right.

Well, since there's no sleep/evasion/OHKO clause, I know that moves like Double Team/Sheer Cold are allowed. Those moves may take some luck to achieve to their fullest (trying to get up to +6 evasion with Double Team or outright KOing your opponent's team with whatever OHKO move you have), but it pays off in the end.

Not really; those moves are generally stacked against the user anyway. For singles, just bring some Inconsistent abusers, Inconsistent supporters, and Inconsistent counters.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Aura Sphere will ignore your +6 Evasion, unless you're a Ghost type. Likewise Clear Smog will not only damage you but it will nullify all stat boosts, unless you're a Steel Type (in which case Haze will do the trick).

And in a Metagame where Evasion moves are possible to use, it's very wise to pack perfect accuracy moves just for that reason.

Evasion itself won't be that popular, with the possible exception of Minimize abusers; you won't GET to +6 evasion if your opponent isn't sleeping.

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by Fat PlatinumDude

Hmm...right.

Well, since there's no sleep/evasion/OHKO clause, I know that moves like Double Team/Sheer Cold are allowed. Those moves may take some luck to achieve to their fullest (trying to get up to +6 evasion with Double Team or outright KOing your opponent's team with whatever OHKO move you have), but it pays off in the end.

Aura Sphere will ignore your +6 Evasion, unless you're a Ghost type. Likewise Clear Smog will not only damage you but it will nullify all stat boosts, unless you're a Steel Type (in which case Haze will do the trick).

And in a Metagame where Evasion moves are possible to use, it's very wise to pack perfect accuracy moves just for that reason.

[PlatinumDude]

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

Aura Sphere will ignore your +6 Evasion, unless you're a Ghost type. Likewise Clear Smog will not only damage you but it will nullify all stat boosts, unless you're a Steel Type (in which case Haze will do the trick).

And in a Metagame where Evasion moves are possible to use, it's very wise to pack perfect accuracy moves just for that reason.

So that would mean using Double Team would be a bad idea, knowing that your opponent will have Lucario or Amoongus in your team thanks to Team Preview, right?

[CasMat]

I have a question I would like to hear people's opinions on:

Would Moody (inconsistent) necessarily break this ruleset like it does standard, or are the situational counters to Moody pokemon worthy of a team slot if you don't have to use them in battles where they aren't necessary?

What about sleep, or evasion?

[I understand that its more of a luck issue than a "broken" issue with Moody and evasion, but I believe the question would still be applicable.]

I think the answer would boil down to whether or not the situational counters are good enough, and more importantly (read: less off topic-ly) whether or not team slots can afford to be, in a word, wasted on pokemon that are situational rather than consistently good in a bring 6 pick 3 ruleset. I don't know how to answer either question; maybe you guys do?

[SupremeDirt]

Note that it's been stated somewhere (can't find the link) that moves learned in previous generations will be banned off of the ladder they'll have.

In addition, Sky Drop is also banned because of the gravity glitch.

I totally recommend that this thread be directed towards the global union ladder thing. Since that actually matters and there's rumors floating around that top players on the ladder get an invite to VGC or something.

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by Fat SupremeDirt

Note that it's been stated somewhere (can't find the link) that moves learned in previous generations will be banned off of the ladder they'll have.

If it's true, then that's just bullshit.

[Showsni]

Originally Posted by Fat Sprocket

If it's true, then that's just bullshit.

That's what it says on serebii:
http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/gl...tleunion.shtml

[Ashenlock]

I asked the same question on the Simple Question / Simple Answer thread, and someone told me that it just applied to Unova pokemon knowing moves that they couldn't learn outside Unova (ie, Entei with ExtremeSpeed would be fine). This may or may not be so, but I think Serebii updated that page right away and the information may have been hastily written and not perfectly accurate.

[SupremeDirt]

Yeah, I remember reading it somewhere other than Serebii though, but I can't for the life of me remember where.

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Ashenlock

I asked the same question on the Simple Question / Simple Answer thread, and someone told me that it just applied to Unova pokemon knowing moves that they couldn't learn outside Unova

In other words, no illegal move sets, which is pretty much the norm isn't it?

Still, if it means Gen 3 and Gen 4 Pokemon can't learn Gen 3 and Gen 4 movesets, then that's gonna suck playing on the Global Union. Still, it's nothing that we can control.

As far as Flat Battles go, I don't believe it to be a rule.