CAP1 - Part 10a - (Attacking Moves Discussion)

[Deck Knight]

RE Hurricane:

Allowed. We need THawk to pose a threat, and it won't if all it can do is STAB Fighting. Hurricane also operates best in a weather that draws in its best counters: Tornadus, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Moreover the calculation on physically defensive Skarm is bogus. Physically Defensive Skarm is never used to counter special attackers. It's relevant to a metagame where Rain is prevalent but using it in a Rain team will give you trouble with other Rain teams.

I'm advancing Power Gem for Allowed.

Power Gem provides some Rock-type offensive power outside of Hidden Power, and has the same power. It could free up space for HP Ice, and they hit pretty much the same targets.

Let's not forget a key move here: Circle Throw for Allowed.

Obviously a Taunt-proof phaze is very desirable, and even with 60 Base Atk it does have some damaging potential. If it can break Substitutes then that is offensive enough to warrant placement as an attacking move.

One other move: Hex for Allowed.

Hex doesn't have the immediate breaking or coverage power of Shadow Ball, or the potentually broken hax of Ominous Wind. It does however make status sets with Prankster more viable, allowing THawk to keep momentum set up by Toxic Spikes or its own status in effect. It's also perfect for addressing oddball threats like Psycho Shift Sigiliph and other Flame or Toxic Orb abusers (though Breloom is better dispatched by Air Slash).

[Zebstrika]

While there are arguments about how Focus Punch is not required, I would still like it to stay on the list. Focus Punch gives Tomohawk a more reliable way to beat Blissey/Chansey, especially with its (Prankster) 101 HP Substitutes. However, if Blissey/Chansey tries to pass a Wish or use Heal Bell, that's a huge momentum loss.

Hurricane: Disallow
I realize that Air Slash is pretty weak and may not force certain pokemon out like Hurricane would, but I think that high chance for a free turn is devastating to your momentum. When you need to quickly regain momentum, but Hurricane misses and you die and get swept, that's a huge problem. Yes, Air Slash can miss too, but the chance is much lower and any weaker move starts to make it ridiculous. However, there is the fact that Hurricane has a 30% chance to confuse, which can force another switch for more momentum.

Icy Wind: Disallow
I would rather give this a different Ice typed attacking move like Aurora Beam or Frost Breath. I actually like Frost Breath as it penetrates your special attack drops and the opponent's special attack boosts that would otherwise give the opponent lots of momentum. It also discourages Reuniclus from setting up but it can still effectively counter (barring Air Slash flinchax). The reason I want another Ice typed attacking move is because Tornadus/Thundurus become a huge threat if they get a Nasty Plot, and I don't want it to risk a KO when they try.

Volt Switch: Disallow
U-turn gets the momentum job done better, making Volt Switch just like a weaker coverage move.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

One other move: Hex for Allowed.

Hex doesn't have the immediate breaking or coverage power of Shadow Ball, or the potentually broken hax of Ominous Wind.

Erh...Ominous Wind isn't that broken as make it out to be. Sure that 10% of increasing all your stats by +1 is frightening but the other 90% of the time it does nothing but do so-so to things it hits (except maybe for those SE against but that's depends on what you considered so-so damage)

Anyway on to the topic quoted above, I would also like Hex moved/placed into the allowed list. Hex isn't strong enough to crippled/kill any of it's supposed psychic/ghost checks, unless they're already affected by a status ailment upon switching in, but really you're playing the prediction game at that point of time.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

It's also perfect for addressing oddball threats like Psycho Shift Sigiliph and other Flame or Toxic Orb abusers (though Breloom is better dispatched by Air Slash).

Aren't most Flame/Toxic Orb abusers immune to Hex or are otherwise handle better by it's stab moves? The only Toxic/Flame orb users that make Hex a useful move to use on are Cresseila and Sigilyph and both can probably OHKO Tomohawk rather easily?

Hurricane: Allowed
On it's own it's a pretty powerful move. 120 BP move with stab could really wreck thing, but it's accuracy leave it being only useful Hurricane within Rain. However Rain brings Zapdos, Genie bros., and a whole slew of other things that Tomohawk can't handle effectively. To put it shortly it's not overpower on this guy.

Icy Wind: Disallowed
Icy Wind stops too many of it suggested checks/counters with it's Speed lowering effect. Most of the one one would use Icy Wind on are 2HKO by it when Stealth Rocks are taken into consideration. This coupled with the fact it frees up Hidden Power for something else really puts a bad taste in my mouth.

[Tortferngatr]

BTW, U-Turn isn't anywhere in the list on the front page-not even in pending.

[Attract]

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

BTW, U-Turn isn't anywhere in the list on the front page-not even in pending.

That's because U-Turn is considered a non-attacking move. Probably due to it only being used for its mon-switching...and Tomohawk's poor Attack stat.

[Erick]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Let's not forget a key move here: Circle Throw for Allowed.

Obviously a Taunt-proof phaze is very desirable, and even with 60 Base Atk it does have some damaging potential.

Agreed, the ability to phaze is great, it's an awesome opportunity to steal momentum from your opponent by ruining a set-up or a sweep, or just forcing out a threat and requiring it to switch in later, likely causing it to accumulate hazard damage. Circle Throw for Allowed.

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Erh...Ominous Wind isn't that broken as make it out to be. Sure that 10% of increasing all your stats by +1 is frightening but the other 90% of the time it does nothing but do so-so to things it hits (except maybe for those SE against but that's depends on what you considered so-so damage).

Yeah, Ominous Wind is pretty weaksauce. Its power is low, especially for a move with such low PP. While the +1 boost to every stat would indeed be broken, I don't think I've ever got the boost from using it in-game, so I've never used it in the metagame. I've never seen anyone else use it either. Anyone who would run it is probably relying too much on hax, which is dumb. 9 times out of 10, you're going to fail. It might be worth disallowing it for that tenth time it does work, but I don't think it matters too much.

Hex is neat, though. It's even less immediately threatening than Ominous Wind, but the power boost on status afflicted foes is pretty nifty, I could imagine it being useful without being too powerful. Hex for Allowed.

[reachzero]

Okay, I believe we have everything where it belongs now, except for Hurricane, Icy Wind and Volt Switch, which will go to a poll!