np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[badabing]

Originally Posted by Fat bubbly

Sand Veil + Sandstorm ban is kind of ridiculous IMO, at least until the pokemon concerned receive DW abilities.

Waiting until DW abilities doesn't solve much really. A complex ban is necessary in order to preserve movepools. kthnx

[Uncanny Luck]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

I think we can trust our voters enough to assume that they voted it for a good reason, which would be either being broken or being uncompetitive. And it's obviously not the former.

That's not a reasonable assumption at all. "It's <X> therefore it should be banned," isn't a good reason at all to vote for something.

[Zephiel]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

In Fire Emblem, you get attacked by several weak, low-accuracy attacks per turn. Using a character with high evasion doesn't give normally 100% attacks a miss chance; it increases the substantial miss chance that already exists. Evasion is a natural part of Fire Emblem that increases as each character levels up; there's no real way to separate characters from their high evasion like in Pokemon, where evasion is always something added later than a natural part of the Pokemon. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are the only built-in forms of evasion, and even then, they only activate when triggered by another ability. The fact that individual moves tend to be less significant is also a factor; one miss isn't anywhere near as likely to make a difference.

But what's perhaps most significant is that Fire Emblem is that it's typically played in single-player, while we address the multiplayer aspect of Pokemon. If you dodge an attack in Fire Emblem, you aren't cheating any player out of their move, while you are in competitive Pokemon.

When you add all of this up, you get that in Fire Emblem, evasion cannot be reasonably prevented, it's less significant, and there is no reason to prevent it. In Pokemon, it can be reasonably prevented, it can be extremely significant, and there are good reasons to prevent it. That's all the difference that's needed between the two series.

Fire Emblem CAN be played in multi player as well (with the advent of WiFi in FE11 and 12, in fact, it could even be played multi with the Link Arena in FE6, FE7 and FE8). But when people play FE competitively, they don't whine so much about stuff missing - of course, it's normal to whine when you get unlucky, but going so far as to ban things? That's just ridiculous and incredibly whiney. It's almost what a spoiled rich kid would do.

I don't understand what you mean by "reasonably prevented". Do you mean by banning things? We can do that in Fire Emblem as well.. just ban certain units, can't we?

Evasion is extremely significant in Fire Emblem - it's the only reason why several classes are so useful. If evasion wasn't so important, then we'd all be using tanks. It's so significant that swordmasters are, as far as I know, the most commonly used class in multiplayer since you dodging an attack means that you don't take any damage.

You have ignored my argument about Brightpowder - if you decide to make your Pokemon hold it, you will lose the benefit of another item.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Zephiel

Fire Emblem CAN be played in multi player as well (with the advent of WiFi in FE11 and 12, in fact, it could even be played multi with the Link Arena in FE6, FE7 and FE8). But when people play FE competitively, they don't whine so much about stuff missing - of course, it's normal to whine when you get unlucky, but going so far as to ban things? That's just ridiculous and incredibly whiney. It's almost what a spoiled rich kid would do.

I don't understand what you mean by "reasonably prevented". Do you mean by banning things? We can do that in Fire Emblem as well.. just ban certain units, can't we?

Evasion is extremely significant in Fire Emblem - it's the only reason why several classes are so useful. If evasion wasn't so important, then we'd all be using tanks. It's so significant that swordmasters are, as far as I know, the most commonly used class in multiplayer since you dodging an attack means that you don't take any damage.

You have ignored my argument about Brightpowder - if you decide to make your Pokemon hold it, you will lose the benefit of another item.

Indeed, FE has multiplayer. It's also one of the most minor aspects of the game and not relevant in the slightest.

We can ban things in FE, but in order to ban evasion in FE, we would have to ban everything with a Speed or Luck stat of 1 or greater. That's completely absurd and impossible.

Yes, evasion is significant in FE. I'm well aware of that. What relevance does that have? It only goes to show why banning evasion in FE is impossible.

Your argument about Brightpowder is irrelevant. The item is there, and people have the possibility of using it.

[Arc Tech]

Originally Posted by Fat Zephiel

Fire Emblem CAN be played in multi player as well (with the advent of WiFi in FE11 and 12, in fact, it could even be played multi with the Link Arena in FE6, FE7 and FE8). But when people play FE competitively, they don't whine so much about stuff missing - of course, it's normal to whine when you get unlucky, but going so far as to ban things? That's just ridiculous and incredibly whiney. It's almost what a spoiled rich kid would do.

I don't understand what you mean by "reasonably prevented". Do you mean by banning things? We can do that in Fire Emblem as well.. just ban certain units, can't we?

Evasion is extremely significant in Fire Emblem - it's the only reason why several classes are so useful. If evasion wasn't so important, then we'd all be using tanks. It's so significant that swordmasters are, as far as I know, the most commonly used class in multiplayer since you dodging an attack means that you don't take any damage.

You have ignored my argument about Brightpowder - if you decide to make your Pokemon hold it, you will lose the benefit of another item.

Comparing FE to Pokemon is comparing apples to oranges.

First, evasion is an inherent part of the characters, with evasion, skill, and luck stats (does speed play a role? it's been a while).

Second, I know the link arena of the really old FE's only allow one char to move per turn, but you can have any attack any (which is different in pokemon), and I know the newer ones allow multiplayer on a map. If you get to move all 5 per turn, then missing one is not as important. IF you just get to move 1, you would still probably either using a very bulky unit so you don't mind getting hit more, or have equal evasion/speed and such to them making it mostly cancel out (there are usually a few "OU" (best) units in FE who outclass the rest (not even difs in movepools and abilities like in pokemon) so it's reasonable to expect teams to be very similar).

Third, FE is meant primarily (indeed, almost entirely) for single player. I'm don't even think that every FE game has had multiplayer options, even as simplistic as the link arena. Plus, I don't ever remember Nintendo holding an FE tourny.


You do lose the benefit of an item, but free turns, when you get them, more than make up for the loss. True, you don't consistently get them, but when you do...

[Zephiel]

Indeed, FE has multiplayer. It's also one of the most minor aspects of the game and not relevant in the slightest.

The fact that it's not relevant doesn't counter my aforementioned argument.

We can ban things in FE, but in order to ban evasion in FE, we would have to ban everything with a Speed or Luck stat of 1 or greater. That's completely absurd and impossible.

You would mainly have to ban the classes with high speed caps, yes. Evasion is unavoidable due to the weapon triangle. Of course, it's impossible to avoid evasion completely, but it's impossible in Pokemon too because of lower accuracy moves.

Yes, evasion is significant in FE. I'm well aware of that. What relevance does that have? It only goes to show why banning evasion in FE is impossible.

You said it wasn't significant.

Your argument about Brightpowder is irrelevant. The item is there, and people have the possibility of using it.

wat? You lose the chance for health restored each turn and extra damage just for 10% evasion each turn. I am saying that it's silly to sacrifice your lone item slot for that.

Comparing FE to Pokemon is comparing apples to oranges.

I know. I don't wish to compare FE and Pokemon directly, if there were any other game I could think of with evasion, I would have mentioned it. I'm simply comparing the evasion factors.

Nintendo hasn't held a Super Smash Bros. tourney either. Just because they don't hold tourneys doesn't mean the multiplayer means nothing..

A move misses once in ten turns. This doesn't necessarily have to be an Ice Beam on a Garchomp - it can be an Earthquake from Hippowdon or whatever. Leftovers restores 10/16 in 10 turns so 5/8 of your HP per 10 turns - that's even more significant than a Brightpowder and it helps you negate Spikes / SR damage, which is important since a Brightpowder can't do that.

Although I agree Garchomp can be cheap with Substitute and Brightpowder - but that doesn't mean you should ban Brightpowder.

[Thorhammer]

A mach punch conkeldurr without drain punch can never become a drain punch conkeldurr, and vice versa. Are you going to say now moves have their own movepools (which is not quite true since they can learn both moves, just not after existence) ?

Relevance? I'm not talking about distinctness in that sense. Not this time, at least.

Originally Posted by Fat Arc Tech

The same thing said of the moves could be said of Speed Boost blaziken. Is speed boost blaziken with incinerate/peck/SD/work up broken? hell no. Is it banned by your combo ban? yes. Speed boost happens to be the link among all broken sets of blaziken, each them possessing it, and if it is removed being non-uber. Having one or more of the moves I listed is a link among all broken sets of rayquaza, and removing them removes all his broken sets. It does ban non-broken sets along the way, but so does banning speed boost blaziken.

It is blaziken which has the movepool not speed boost, and indeed Blaziken cannot learn speed boost along with some moves, but it is ultimately blaziken the movepool is linked too, not speed boost, with speed boost adding some conditions. After all, blaziken cannot learn Ninjask's X-scizzor or Sharpedo's waterfall through speed boost now can it?

And just as only Gamefreak can make different species, only Gamefreak can make different forms. They are something which exist ingame, and are recognized by the pokedex among other things. If we could make different forms, couldn't we have called yache chomp or SD chomp a different form than normal chomp, and simply banned that?

Actually, it could not. With an ability ban, no consideration is given to the movepool. With a movepool ban, you can't single out any one move as being broken if another move is also required in order for it to be broken, because in that case the other move is just as responsible for the brokenness as the one you pick. And as I said, no Pokemon is ever broken if it only knows a single move (with the possible exception of Draco Meteor), and therefore there is always another move that can also be blamed.

Speed Boost does not have a movepool; it's the combination of Blaziken + Speed Boost which has the movepool, which is different from the movepool of Blaziken + Blaze, if only slightly.

Only Gamefreak can make forms, but we can define forms if the forms are fundamentally different, which DW forms and non-DW forms are.

[Scarfwynaut]

I would support testing Blaziken without speed boost, since without it I don't think its even OU worthy. But its going to take some serious effort, as far as smogon's mind sense goes to not ban things that aren't broken, if something similar is. So I doubt it will happen.

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Relevance? I'm not talking about distinctness in that sense. Not this time, at least.


Actually, it could not. With an ability ban, no consideration is given to the movepool. With a movepool ban, you can't single out any one move as being broken if another move is also required in order for it to be broken, because in that case the other move is just as responsible for the brokenness as the one you pick. And as I said, no Pokemon is ever broken if it only knows a single move (with the possible exception of Draco Meteor), and therefore there is always another move that can also be blamed.

Speed Boost does not have a movepool; it's the combination of Blaziken + Speed Boost which has the movepool, which is different from the movepool of Blaziken + Blaze, if only slightly.

Only Gamefreak can make forms, but we can define forms if the forms are fundamentally different, which DW forms and non-DW forms are.

With what fundamentals are you defining "fundamentally different" with?

Why can't I define Shell-Break less Cloyster to be a different form from normal Cloyster? Surely, a powerful sweeper is "fundamentally different" from a physically defensive utility.

[Acritter]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Relevance? I'm not talking about distinctness in that sense. Not this time, at least.


Actually, it could not. With an ability ban, no consideration is given to the movepool. With a movepool ban, you can't single out any one move as being broken if another move is also required in order for it to be broken, because in that case the other move is just as responsible for the brokenness as the one you pick. And as I said, no Pokemon is ever broken if it only knows a single move (with the possible exception of Draco Meteor), and therefore there is always another move that can also be blamed.

Speed Boost does not have a movepool; it's the combination of Blaziken + Speed Boost which has the movepool, which is different from the movepool of Blaziken + Blaze, if only slightly.

Only Gamefreak can make forms, but we can define forms if the forms are fundamentally different, which DW forms and non-DW forms are.

So by your definition, different sets for Pokemon are so "fundamentally different" that we can ban them independently? So we can, say, ban SD Scizor but leave CB Scizor in the game? Of course we'd need to prove that SD Scizor was broken, but since the only real difference between the sets is Swords Dance, we could easily see that the fundamental difference between the two is Swords Dance. Therefore, we can define Swords Dance as a factor making a completely different Scizor form, and so if Swords Dance Scizor is ever broken, we can just ban Swords Dance on Scizor.

Right?

[Arc Tech]

Speed Boost Blaziken and brightpowder/lax incense.

It'll be posted when the bans are implemented, ladder reset, and Round 4 suspect test thread is posted.

Speaking of which, I wonder what it will be called.
"np: Sorry, Kung Pow Chicken is no longer on the menu"


On forms, I would like to also state that it could extend to multiple moves as well. We could make a "Lesser" and "Greater" Rayquaza. Greater would be the Rayquaza we have now, and Lesser would be Rayquaza with a smaller movepool, minus the 5 moves I listed. What makes this any different from differentiating forms by ability?

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Arc Tech

Speed Boost Blaziken and brightpowder/lax incense.

It'll be posted when the bans are implemented, ladder reset, and Round 4 suspect test thread is posted.

Speaking of which, I wonder what it will be called.
"np: Sorry, Kung Pow Chicken is no longer on the menu"


On forms, I would like to also state that it could extend to multiple moves as well. We could make a "Lesser" and "Greater" Rayquaza. Greater would be the Rayquaza we have now, and Lesser would be Rayquaza with a smaller movepool, minus the 5 moves I listed. What makes this any different from differentiating forms by ability?

We cannot go so far as to customize movesets! If we allow ourselves to pick and choose what moves pokemon can get we are no longer playing pokemon, we're playing CAP.

[Arc Tech]

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

We cannot go so far as to customize movesets! If we allow ourselves to pick and choose what moves pokemon can get we are no longer playing pokemon, we're playing CAP.

And I asked, how is that any different from picking and choosing what abilties a pokemon may use? I am against all pokemon+factor bans.

[Ninja_13]

Originally Posted by Fat Arc Tech

And I asked, how is that any different from picking and choosing what abilties a pokemon may use? I am against all pokemon+factor bans.

If you want a new moveset on your Blaze Blaziken, all you need to do is level it up to the point where it learns a move, use TMs/HMs, use a Heart Scale to relearn a level-up move, or go to a Move Tutor with a move it can learn, and BAM! new moveset. If you want your Blaze Blaziken to have Speed Boost, however, that's too bad, you'll have to get a different Blaziken, because you can't do anything about it, as Blaze (like all other abilities) is a unchangeable aspect of your Blaze Blaziken.

The point is, the moveset on an individual Pokemon can be changed, but not it's ability. This doesn't matter much for a simulator, but, surprise surprise, people also play using the actual game, and they'd be able to better appreciate the difference.

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat Ninja_13

If you want a new moveset on your Blaze Blaziken, all you need to do is level it up to the point where it learns a move, use TMs/HMs, use a Heart Scale to relearn a level-up move, or go to a Move Tutor with a move it can learn, and BAM! new moveset. If you want your Blaze Blaziken to have Speed Boost, however, that's too bad, you'll have to get a different Blaziken, because you can't do anything about it, as Blaze (like all other abilities) is a unchangeable aspect of your Blaze Blaziken.

The point is, the moveset on an individual Pokemon can be changed, but not it's ability. This doesn't matter much for a simulator, but, surprise surprise, people also play using the actual game, and they'd be able to better appreciate the difference.

1. Go to PC box
2. Go to your party
3. Select Speed Boost Blaziken from party
4. Move to Box
5. Select Blaze Blaziken from box
6. Move to Party

You have now "transformed", as far as your game cares, the Speed Boost Blaziken from your party into a Blaze Blaziken.

And what if you don't have a Blaze Blaziken? WELL, what if I don't have a Heart Scale?

And if you're telling me to put in the effort to go find some, I'm sure you can put in the effort to get a new Blaziken.

And if you're saying that getting Heart Scales is easier, I'll go do it blindfolded to make you happy.

</satire>

It doesn't matter if you can't turn a pokemon into whatever. In battles, we only care about what's in your party. As long as you can change your party somehow(like with the above method), you can get whatever you want.

[Mario With Lasers]

People insisting with this availability argument make me even more eager to learn how to RNG in Entree Forest so I can mass-distribute SB Torchic so we can move on and no one ever complain they don't have access to it.


Besides, I can't teach Pursuit to my DD TTar, does it make it the same as Blaze/SB Blaziken?

[Aeroblacktyl]

You were never required to follow Smogon's bans or tiers. If you find happiness battling elsewhere, by all means do so. We don't go there and preach about how our tiers should be used so you sure as fuck should get the fuck out and shut the fuck up about what you dislike about ours.

[Arc Tech]

Originally Posted by Fat Ninja_13

If you want a new moveset on your Blaze Blaziken, all you need to do is level it up to the point where it learns a move, use TMs/HMs, use a Heart Scale to relearn a level-up move, or go to a Move Tutor with a move it can learn, and BAM! new moveset. If you want your Blaze Blaziken to have Speed Boost, however, that's too bad, you'll have to get a different Blaziken, because you can't do anything about it, as Blaze (like all other abilities) is a unchangeable aspect of your Blaze Blaziken.

The point is, the moveset on an individual Pokemon can be changed, but not it's ability. This doesn't matter much for a simulator, but, surprise surprise, people also play using the actual game, and they'd be able to better appreciate the difference.

Say I have a mach punch conkeldurr. I want it to learn drain punch. Can I? No. The same goes in reverse (have drain punch, want mach punch). So could just drain punch and just mach punch conkeldurr be considered different forms?

Indeed, even if I have a skymin, can it never transform into a shaymin? All forms, bar some of the aesthetic forms such as unown and basculin, actually can transform into each other.

It is irrelevant what an individual pokemon of a species has, only what the entire species has overall.

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeroblacktyl

You were never required to follow Smogon's bans or tiers. If you find happiness battling elsewhere, by all means do so. We don't go there and preach about how our tiers should be used so you sure as fuck should get the fuck out and shut the fuck up about what you dislike about ours.

You do realize Smogon's rules, are used pretty much everywhere? You are the standard for pokemon battling, like it or not. So you can't just tell people to go somewhere else, becuase they can't escape Smogon's infulience. And if we are joining the forums and contributing, guess what? We are part of the community, and we do have say and we can complain about Smogon, on the Smogon site. So next time to try to bash someone like this, try to find one site totally beyond the influence of Smogon's rules, that doesn't totally suck, and link it to them.

[Haunter**]

Stop these useless complaints. Aeroblacktyl's words may be rude (and they probaby are) but he's pretty much correct. Smogon gives everybody the chance to vote and decide the tiering of every potentially broken Pokemon. While you have the right to disagree with our voting pool, and post your opinion, you have no right to complain about our tiering process as it's absolutely democratic and transparent.

I'm not going to further tolerate this kind of posts, so either stay on topic or don't post at all, thanks.

[Lamppost]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeroblacktyl

You were never required to follow Smogon's bans or tiers. If you find happiness battling elsewhere, by all means do so. We don't go there and preach about how our tiers should be used so you sure as fuck should get the fuck out and shut the fuck up about what you dislike about ours.

amen

anyways, does anyone know if round 4 is going to start anytime soon?

[TorchicBlaziken]

And even on Smogon, you can deviate from the rules in the Battle Me thread.

Which brings up a point: I think that Brightpowder and Lax Incense should not have been banned under Evasion Clause. I think they should have been banned under their own clause, considering there are those who enjoy a metagame with Brightpowder and Lax Incense but not with Evasion-boosting moves.

[WhiteMagic]

Personally, because Drizzle + Swift Swim got banned, should Sand Stream + Sand Rush and Drought + Chlorophyll be banned as well? They both follow the same idea: Automatic Weather + Speed = Broken

[SkaterTrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat WhiteMagic

Personally, because Drizzle + Swift Swim got banned, should Sand Stream + Sand Rush and Drought + Chlorophyll be banned as well? They both follow the same idea: Automatic Weather + Speed = Broken

No for a few reasons. Rain provides a boost to the user's stab, Sand stream gives no boost and no fire users get chlorophyll so its a choice between speed and power. Rain also has a lot more abusers, kingdra, kabutops, omastar, ludicolo, just to name a few, while the only real abuser of sand rush is exadrill and in the sun, Venasaur is the only prominent one to name. Overall rain outclasses other weathers, we saw it in UU last gen and that was before drizzle, now with drizzle in ou, it just showed the brokeness of swift swim abusers.

[Scarfwynaut]

There are only 3-7 big rain abusers, but overall the rest is right.