CAP1 - Part 12a - (Complete Movepool Submissions) - Page 2

petrie911 · Apr 7th, 2011, 6:15:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

DO NOT COUNT NONCOMPETITIVE VGMS AS VGMS FOR YOUR MOVEPOOL: If you put Crunch in CAP1's movepool because it's allowed, that's cool, but it's noncompetitive because of CAP1's base 60 Attack, so it's not a VGM for CAP1. This also applies for moves like Hyper Voice, Quick Attack, Return, etc. This will help you fit more cool moves in that actually are VGMs for CAP1 without overly limiting you.

I disagree with this. The original VGM limits were set based on the distribution of moves from real Pokemon, irrespective of how many VGMs were actually good on that Pokemon.

reachzero · Apr 7th, 2011, 10:41:34 AM

I'll close this thread at 2:06 PM EDT tomorrow, exactly 72 hours from the time of the OP. I like what I've seen from the submissions so far!

Edit for commentary:

Okay, it would have been nice if you guys had included the illegal egg move combinations so I didn't have to figure it out myself, but I finally added pretty much every remotely relevant illegal combo to the second page of my spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CL2G8ZsP

While compiling these, I discovered something worth pointing out. Another reason why a full list of illegal egg move combinations is nice is that it shows which moves are extremely difficult to fit onto a competitive set! For instance, in petrie911's and jas61292's submissions, Aura Sphere and Rapid Spin are illegal together. This means that while each of these submissions theoretically have Rapid Spin, practically it would be rather difficult to construct a reasonably good set actually using Rapid Spin (especially given petrie911's submission, which also lacks Grass Knot). I imagine these users probably added Rapid Spin (a few others did similar things with other moves, especially Hurricane and Stealth Rock) for the sake of having them for the polls, since I don't really understand why you would add moves to the movepool without allowing them to be legal with the moves that would make Tomohawk usable to begin with.

The moral of this story? When there is a move that nearly every competitive set must have (like Aura Sphere), please, please don't put it in the egg moves.

HeavyOctillery · Apr 7th, 2011, 4:13:56 PM

Edited original post with the TMs/HMs list. If there's any discrepancy on what would or wouldn't be a VGM for Tomo, lemme know.

EDIT: Added Egg Moves, and adjusted some things. Still missing Level Up numbers and reasoning behind inclusions/exclusions.

EDIT#2: Added inclusion/exclusion reasoning.

Also, I could use some help in figuring out illegalities with the Egg Moves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat petrie911

I disagree with this. The original VGM limits were set based on the distribution of moves from real Pokemon, irrespective of how many VGMs were actually good on that Pokemon.

I disagree with your disagreement. If some non-VGMs can become VGMs when conditions are right, why not the reverse?

Honko · Apr 8th, 2011, 4:39:06 AM

I'll give this a whirl.

Level Up and Prevo Moves

TMs

Egg (Monster/Fairy)

Summary

Explanation

Explanation
First off, what's missing? Hurricane and Heat Wave are probably the most glaring omissions, but I don't think Tomohawk needs either one. Hurricane is too powerful inside rain and too unreliable outside of it. A missed attack is certainly a momentum-killer, so instead of forcing people to run Hurricane for the power, I decided to force them to use the much safer Air Slash. (Including Focus Blast seems to contradict this somewhat, but every Fighting-type gets Focus Blast, and the power gap between it and Aura Sphere is small enough that you aren't forced to use it.) Heat Wave might be a more controversial omission, but with such redundant coverage alongside Tomohawk's STABs, its only real use would be on Choice sets, which I think most of us agree go against the concept. Grass Knot makes much more sense as the main coverage attack for sets that use three attack moves.

Support-wise, there were a lot of options I ended up leaving out because they seemed like overkill. Trick and Disable would both certainly stop an opponent's momentum, but they would also allow Tomohawk to defeat its own counters; Haze, Yawn, Encore, and Torment can all steal immediate momentum just as effectively without being broken. I strongly considered including Mean Look, but I felt that together with moves like Perish Song, Yawn, and Roost, it was too powerful, and making it illegal with those moves required changing Egg groups, which would remove some other options I like better.

Priority Baton Passing, whether it's dry passing or sending along 101 HP subs or boosts, is the definition of momentum in my mind. Rapid Spin is there for two reasons; first, removing hazards is a nice big-picture momentum changer (compared to the immediate effects of Encore/Haze/etc), but Rapid Spin is also a great way to make the opponent predictable, which is another important part of momentum. Icy Wind, Scary Face, and Snarl give Tomohawk additional tools to disrupt a sweep; Tailwind, U-turn, and Healing Wish are more offensive game-changers; Snatch and Me First give the bravest predictors a couple more entertaining tools.

Wish I had more time to work on this but I've probably spent too long already.

Rising_Dusk · Apr 8th, 2011, 12:16:26 PM

I talked with reachzero, and he disagrees entirely with my post suggesting any of that advice. For that reason, you should follow the VGMs exactly as they are on-site and not listen to anything I posted before (which I've now deleted). I apologize for the confusion.

reachzero · Apr 8th, 2011, 12:28:26 PM

The rules as written on site give me the authority to declare moves to be or not be (/hamlet) VGMs based on lack of competitive merit, but I have not chosen to do so in this case, meaning the list on site is authoritative in this case.

**jas61292** · Apr 8th, 2011, 1:01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat reachzero

While compiling these, I discovered something worth pointing out. Another reason why a full list of illegal egg move combinations is nice is that it shows which moves are extremely difficult to fit onto a competitive set! For instance, in petrie911's and jas61292's submissions, Aura Sphere and Rapid Spin are illegal together. This means that while each of these submissions theoretically have Rapid Spin, practically it would be rather difficult to construct a reasonably good set actually using Rapid Spin (especially given petrie911's submission, which also lacks Grass Knot). I imagine these users probably added Rapid Spin (a few others did similar things with other moves, especially Hurricane and Stealth Rock) for the sake of having them for the polls, since I don't really understand why you would add moves to the movepool without allowing them to be legal with the moves that would make Tomohawk usable to begin with.

The moral of this story? When there is a move that nearly every competitive set must have (like Aura Sphere), please, please don't put it in the egg moves.

I just wanted to say that I disagree with this sentiment. By putting good moves in its egg moves, and thus illegal with other useful moves, you are basically inputting a restriction preventing it from doing too much at once. Not only that but illegalities, both important and not so important, are just part of any Pokemon not in the ground egg group.

As far as competitively important ones, probably the best example would be Azumarril. Aqua Jet is used on almost every competitive set nowadays as a way to easily beat Excadrill in the sand. However, I'm sure most Azumarril would love to also have Belly Drum so that it could forgo the CB and boost up on the switch to decimate everyone. Unfortunately (or fortunately depenting on how you look at it), those moves are illegal together. That's just how it works sometimes.

As far as Tomohawk goes, having Aura Sphere illegal with moves is really not that big a restriction anyways. On my set at least, Rapid Spin is legal with all 3 of Tomos other important STABs (Hurricane, Air Slash, Focus Blast), so if you want to Spin, it is a completely viable strategy. The illegality is more of a check on it, than a measure to ensure its uselessness.

Apr 8th, 2011, 4:39:06 AM	#29
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,042	I'll give this a whirl. Level Up and Prevo Moves Level Up (16 moves, 7 VGMs) H - Aerial Ace H - Tailwind H - Roost 1 - Tackle 1 - Growl 6 - Quick Attack 11 - Double Kick 16 - Odor Sleuth 21 - Reversal 26 - Fake Out 31 - Take Down 35 - Wing Attack (evolves at lv35) 43 - Scary Face 51 - Sky Drop 59 - Aura Sphere 67 - Air Slash Prevo Only (3 moves, 3 VGMs) Hyper Voice Superpower Double-Edge TMs TMs (38 moves, 18 VGMs) TM01 - Hone Claws TM05 - Roar TM06 - Toxic TM08 - Bulk Up TM10 - Hidden Power TM11 - Sunny Day TM15 - Hyper Beam TM17 - Protect TM18 - Rain Dance TM20 - Safeguard TM21 - Frustration TM27 - Return (identical move) TM31 - Brick Break TM32 - Double Team TM40 - Aerial Ace (repeat) TM41 - Torment TM42 - Facade TM44 - Rest TM45 - Attract TM46 - Thief TM47 - Low Sweep TM48 - Round TM49 - Echoed Voice TM51 - Ally Switch TM52 - Focus Blast TM54 - False Swipe TM56 - Fling TM58 - Sky Drop (repeated) TM62 - Acrobatics TM67 - Retaliate TM68 - Giga Impact TM80 - Rock Slide TM83 - Work Up TM86 - Grass Knot TM87 - Swagger TM89 - U-turn TM90 - Substitute TM94 - Rock Smash TM95 - Snarl HM02 - Fly HM04 - Strength Egg (Monster/Fairy) Egg (Monster/Fairy) (12 moves, 9 VGMs) Vacuum Wave Baton Pass Rapid Spin Haze Yawn Encore Icy Wind Perish Song Healing Wish Me First Snatch Close Combat Legal combos: Vacuum Wave + Snatch (Breloom) Baton Pass + Yawn + Encore (Togetic) Baton Pass + Icy Wind (Skitty, Mawile) Rapid Spin + Haze + Yawn + Icy Wind (Squirtle) Yawn + Icy Wind + Me First (Slowbro) Encore + Icy Wind + Healing Wish + Snatch (Clefairy) Icy Wind + Perish Song (Lapras, Marill, Cubone) Close Combat (Snubbull) Illegal combos: Vacuum Wave + Baton Pass, Rapid Spin, Haze, Yawn, Encore, Icy Wind, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Close Combat Baton Pass + Rapid Spin, Haze, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat Rapid Spin + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat Haze + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat Yawn + Perish Song, Snatch, Close Combat Encore + Perish Song, Me First, Close Combat Icy Wind + Close Combat Perish Song + Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat Healing Wish + Me First, Close Combat Me First + Snatch, Close Combat Snatch + Close Combat Summary Summary Total Moves: 69 Total VGMs: 37 Notable Special Moves Aura Sphere / Focus Blast Air Slash Hyper Voice Grass Knot Icy Wind Snarl Hidden Power Vacuum Wave Notable Physical Moves Close Combat / Superpower / Brick Break Acrobatics / Aerial Ace / Sky Drop Return / Double-Edge Rock Slide Notable Other Moves Roost Rapid Spin Roar / Haze / Yawn / Encore / Perish Song Bulk Up / Work Up / Hone Claws Baton Pass / U-turn Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind Scary Face Torment Safeguard Healing Wish Odor Sleuth Me First / Snatch Fake Out Explanation Explanation First off, what's missing? Hurricane and Heat Wave are probably the most glaring omissions, but I don't think Tomohawk needs either one. Hurricane is too powerful inside rain and too unreliable outside of it. A missed attack is certainly a momentum-killer, so instead of forcing people to run Hurricane for the power, I decided to force them to use the much safer Air Slash. (Including Focus Blast seems to contradict this somewhat, but every Fighting-type gets Focus Blast, and the power gap between it and Aura Sphere is small enough that you aren't forced to use it.) Heat Wave might be a more controversial omission, but with such redundant coverage alongside Tomohawk's STABs, its only real use would be on Choice sets, which I think most of us agree go against the concept. Grass Knot makes much more sense as the main coverage attack for sets that use three attack moves. Support-wise, there were a lot of options I ended up leaving out because they seemed like overkill. Trick and Disable would both certainly stop an opponent's momentum, but they would also allow Tomohawk to defeat its own counters; Haze, Yawn, Encore, and Torment can all steal immediate momentum just as effectively without being broken. I strongly considered including Mean Look, but I felt that together with moves like Perish Song, Yawn, and Roost, it was too powerful, and making it illegal with those moves required changing Egg groups, which would remove some other options I like better. Priority Baton Passing, whether it's dry passing or sending along 101 HP subs or boosts, is the definition of momentum in my mind. Rapid Spin is there for two reasons; first, removing hazards is a nice big-picture momentum changer (compared to the immediate effects of Encore/Haze/etc), but Rapid Spin is also a great way to make the opponent predictable, which is another important part of momentum. Icy Wind, Scary Face, and Snarl give Tomohawk additional tools to disrupt a sweep; Tailwind, U-turn, and Healing Wish are more offensive game-changers; Snatch and Me First give the bravest predictors a couple more entertaining tools. Wish I had more time to work on this but I've probably spent too long already. __________________ Last edited by reachzero; Apr 8th, 2011 at 11:09:12 AM. Reason: edited for correct VGMs and VGM count

Apr 8th, 2011, 12:16:26 PM	#30
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	I talked with reachzero, and he disagrees entirely with my post suggesting any of that advice. For that reason, you should follow the VGMs exactly as they are on-site and not listen to anything I posted before (which I've now deleted). I apologize for the confusion.