Rotom formes and usage statistics

[Flamewheeler]

Based upon everyone else's thoughts, I must agree that the rotom formes be tiered individually, but I also think species clause should apply for them. While they may now have become separate pokemon in terms of typing, the still remain the same pokemon by means of name, stat distribution, and pokedex number. That may seem kind of funny, but just as Deoxys and Giratina play different roles in their respctive formes, so do the Rotoms. I'm just going with 'because they are still findamentally the same pokemon, species clause should still apply, but they still remain different enough to be tiered individually.'

[Firestorm]

I like the idea of tiering them differently but counting them the same in Species Clause as mentioned a few times. Not doing so seems to require too many exceptions to be kept simple enough, not to mention it gets harder to justify why even have a species clause. I like the idea of "Species Clause states that no two Pokemon on the same team can share the same Pokedex Number". I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other though.

[Ice-eyes]

Species Clause limits Shaymin and Shaymin-S, which are and always have been tiered separately. These draw the strongest parallel (added, different typing) and I don't see why it should be any different from the way we deal with Rotom.

[tobi10]

Rotom-A formes should obviously be tiered differently. On the Species Clause argument: I think that Species Clause should apply in this case. It would be hypocrite to have Pokémon like Deoxys and Shaymin under this clause, while allowing the Rotom formes in standard play. It was said before already, that it would be too complicated to make many exceptions (perhaps a new clause) just to prevent Rotom-A from breaking Species Clause. The way we should handle the Rotom formes is, in my opinion, the same in which we do with Shaymin. Its formes have different typing and movepool, thus tiered apart; yet they still break the Species Clause.

[panamaxis]

*bump*

Okay so, talking on IRC with some people we figured it might be time to revisit this, especially seeing as no real consesus was reached here. I think (and from talking to others I'm not the only one) that you should be able to use multiple Rotoms on the same team.

The main points in lifting the species clause limitation on them:

Different Typing
Pretty obvious here, different typing means wildy different checks and counters.

Different Movepools
Yes its only one move but

<@LonelyNess> if they aren't the exact same
<@LonelyNess> they're different

pretty much sums up the point I'm trying to make here.

Arguments against:
Same Stats:
I don't think it would be fair to use this as the sole argument to keep species clause in regards to the rotoms because you can make the same case for all the 100 pokes.

It'd be nice if for at least now we could try and focus on the rotom problem instead of saying "how would this effect deoxys, giratina, arceus and shaymin", because looking at this thread it'll probably turn into a massive circlejerk again if we aren't focusing on one thing to start with...we can deal with that problem (if needed) after we come to a solution for this one.

[Delta 2777]

For me I don't think we should allow multiple Rotom Formes on the same team simply because they all have the same Pokedex number. Correct me if I'm wrong, but species clause in VGC 2010 prohibited multiple Rotom/Giratina from being on the same team. I guess I wouln't mind allowing different Formes on the same team, I just want to be consistent with Nintendo's definition of species clause.

EDIT: And like you said this could cause a circlejerk with things like Deoxys, Wormadam, Shaymin, etc.

[doomvendingmachine]

If we agree they are different enough to tier differently, why are they still considered the same for teambuilding purposes?

[Mario With Lasers]

I can't see how we can discuss changing the Species Clause for Rotom or making it an exception and try not to discuss Shaymin, as the latter's formes have more differences between them than Rotom's except for "Rotom-Weak". We also have two Deoxys formes allowed in the mostly played tier and some (admittedly few) people believe at least one of them is broken, so allowing or disallowing both of them together would have a bigger impact than multiple Rotom as only Washer is OU. From the posts back in November, the main argument to keep them under Species Clause was exactly "ok why Rotom and not the other guys", so we are only going to settle this if we discuss all of them together.

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

I don't think we should even take Arceus into account as what makes it change its sprite+typing is the item it's holding. It seems to me it would be the same as treating Specsmence and CBMence as different pokémon. Same thing with Unown, as its only difference between formes besides the PID thing (lol seriously) is the sprite, and no way in hell we're going to let people use blue and green Salamence at the same time.

I agree that our Species Clause should allow alt. formes to be used on the same team, as they're pretty different on their own. None of them share the same base stats except for the five Rotom-App, and even then each of them have different typings in B/W.

I still feel the same regarding this and, after reading Eric's reply to my post, I'd like to suggest a new definition for Species Clause. Our current one says:


Two or more of the same Pokémon may not be used on the same team.


I propose changing it to:


Two or more Pokémon with the same Dex number may not be used on the same team. If one of those Pokémon has different base stats or typing, and does not need a specific hold item to be used in battle, it will not count for Species Clause.


B/W Pokédex may show all the different sprites (shiny, male-female, backsprites, different formes) a pokémon has and we could say they are "different formes officially recognized by Game Freak", but they have no competitive relevance as mere sprites. So, with this new definition, we end up only with those formes officially recognized by Game Freak (such as Deoxys) with a competitively relevant difference.

You may only use one Gastrodon because whether its sprite is blue or pink doesn't matter, it's going to wall Kyogre anyway; different Deoxys are allowed because they have different base stats; both Shaymin and Shaymin-S, or all Wormadam, are allowed together as they have different base stats and typing; all Rotom can be used together as all of them have different typing. One of them has 440 BST, even! You can't use Meloetta-A and Meloetta-P at the same time, however, as you would have two Aria formes at first and then would send out one to transform into Pirouette, and Species Clause specifically says they "may not be used on the same team". And I hope no one even dares mentioning frozen Shaymin-S because come the fuck on, how do you freeze a 103/75/75 pokémon with a 4x weakness to Ice, and what would the benefit be?

The exception to this is Giratina as, while its formes have different base stats, its Origin forme can only be used holding a certain item; Giratina-A is more of a mere moveset variation than a "spin-off" pokémon, which makes it more similar to CB/LO Salamence, Damp/Drizzle Politoed or even DD/Pursuit Tyranitar, than to Shaymin/Shaymin-S (which, I'd like to add, also needs an item to change formes but it's only outside of battle so, again, no competitive relevance). Oh, and Arceus doesn't count because it's not officially recognized as having different formes~ And even if we do recognize as such (or if Game Freak now doesand no one told me), the item limitation still applies. It's even worse with Genesect, as the Drives only change its sprite a bit and also its signature move's type, which no one would ever use except if they want a weaker version of Surf to hit... something... super effectively.



Of course, all of this matters only if we want to use multiple Rotom or multiple Deoxys together. Keeping Species Clause as it is wouldn't make the game any worse.

[jrrrrrrr]

They are clearly used as different pokemon, complete with different tiering...just like Shaymin and Shaymin-S. That is the spirit of the Species Clause and I think we should allow multiple forms on the same team. It's not like we're still in gen4 where the Rotoms were all the same type and only had one move to distinguish them, Rotoms in this gen clearly cross the line of what it means to be "different enough"

If we use a "dex number/no hold item" specific Species Clause it would make a handful of pointless bans if we applied it to other aspects of our clauses. Shaymin, Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S would be banned from OU, and all the non-Washer Rotoms would be banned from UU (as well as Shaymin and D-D). If we use this approach then we're setting a precedent by saying "yes, we think Shaymin is the same pokemon as Shaymin-S" which I think is a silly thing for competitive pokemon battlers to say.

If we make Species Clause just form specific, it doesn't have any impact on our metagame.

So in short I think we should treat them differently, like we've been doing with tiering.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

If we use a "dex number/no hold item" specific Species Clause it would make a handful of pointless bans if we applied it to other aspects of our clauses. Shaymin, Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S would be banned from OU, and all the non-Washer Rotoms would be banned from UU (as well as Shaymin and D-D). If we use this approach then we're setting a precedent by saying "yes, we think Shaymin is the same pokemon as Shaymin-S" which I think is a silly thing for competitive pokemon battlers to say.

How so? I said Species Clause would be defined by having the same Dex number, but the pokémon would not count for it if it has different stats/typing (and no held item). I'm saying exactly the opposite, Shaymin and Shaymin-S are different enough to be used together on the same team.

And what did you mean with the "pointless bans" regarding other clauses? How could we even apply it to Sleep, or Evasion?

[jrrrrrrr]

I was talking about the subject in general, assuming that we weren't going to use your clause. I do support using your rewording, if I didn't make that clear.

The pointless bans comment was more about tiering rather than all the clauses but I worded it poorly. Sorry for the mixup.

[Rising_Dusk]

I am fairly content in that the Rotom formes are tiered differently like we unanimously decided upon here. That said, I don't care how many differences the formes have, they are the same Pokemon, and so species clause applies. There's precedence for this in the Nintendo wifi metagames, where they are indeed counted the same for purposes of species clause. Not even considering that regardless of whatever differences Nintendo gives them, they're still the same Pokemon in the Pokedex, functionally on PO I cannot change species clause to allow multiple formes of the same Pokemon on a team. It's just not possible without changing PO's source.

[khz]

As well as what Rising Dusk said, I question the validity of the analogy that difference in tiering means they are different under species clause because when Latias was allowed in OU, that was essentially with Soul Dew banned. Just because Latias @ Soul Dew was uber and Latias @ anything else was OU didn't mean we allowed one of each kind in ubers.

[panamaxis]

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

I am fairly content in that the Rotom formes are tiered differently like we unanimously decided upon here. That said, I don't care how many differences the formes have, they are the same Pokemon, and so species clause applies. There's precedence for this in the Nintendo wifi metagames, where they are indeed counted the same for purposes of species clause. Not even considering that regardless of whatever differences Nintendo gives them, they're still the same Pokemon in the Pokedex, functionally on PO I cannot change species clause to allow multiple formes of the same Pokemon on a team. It's just not possible without changing PO's source.

Ok, fair enough.