General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Fireburn]

So, there seems to have been some interest in having a general discussion thread for the Uber metagame like all other threads have, and we wanna be cool like them too right?

In any case, this is the place to discuss metagame trends, what you've been using, what's good and what isn't, etc. When discussing, just keep some ground rules in mind:

1. DO NOT TALK ABOUT SUSPECT TESTING IN UBERS. That is not what we do in Ubers - it is the tier where you are supposed to be able to use any Pokemon. Here's why you shouldn't do it:

(21:13) Theorymon: lol if I hear one "BAN ARCEUS", I will fucking infract the asshole

2. SEE RULE #1

3. Don't discuss other metagames. This is for discussion of the Ubers metagame only.

4. All other forum rules apply.

Have fun and don't be afraid to post! We'd love for you to share your ideas and thoughts on this wonderful metagame!

[scizorkills]

i think kyogre has more than a super special attacking sweeper purpuse now
now it has lots of rain abusers ubers is gonna be another wheather war
rain will rape evrything

[Mr_br_kill]

Originally Posted by Fat scizorkills

i think kyogre has more than a super special attacking sweeper purpuse now
now it has lots of rain abusers ubers is gonna be another wheather war
rain will rape evrything

Have you even played ubers? Rain isn't that good. Uber rain is basically the same as last gen, and it wasn't overpowering at all. Not only do most rain sweepers lack the raw power to completely dominate as you say, uber sun teams are better then ever with 2 great uber abusers, ho oh and reshiram. Please think before you post and if your trolling, stop.

[guanlong]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_br_kill

Have you even played ubers? Rain isn't that good. Uber rain is basically the same as last gen, and it wasn't overpowering at all. Not only do most rain sweepers lack the raw power to completely dominate as you say, uber sun teams are better then ever with 2 great uber abusers, ho oh and reshiram. Please think before you post and if your trolling, stop.

Yeah. Rain's main abuser is Kyogre itself (granted, it IS the most used Pokemon in the tier) but that's about it. If you think about it, there aren't any other prominent rain abusers; Palkia is more often used as a Scarfer to beat Kyogre.

However, Rain has one new ally this generation -- Ferrothorn. That bastard has amazing defensive synergy with Kyogre under the rain, such that attacks like Scarf Palkia's Fire Blast won't OHKO before it is crippled by Leech Seed and Protect...

I have found Mixed Rayquaza to destroy Ferrothorn completely. It nullifies Rain and easily OHKOs with Fire Blast; Dialga is also a good candidate for beating Ferrothorn, as none of its attacks can do anything to Dialga. Sets which don't invest in Speed also don't really mind Thunder Wave.

On the other hand, sun is highly offensive. It's got 2 powerful abusers on both attacking spectrums, and you can't say 'Kyogre weak' because Palkia (and Giratina-O) fit pretty damn well onto Sun teams, meaning that Kyogre won't be able to spam Water Spouts.

Still, Rain remains ubiquitous due to Kyogre's grip on the metagame, but dedicated Rain teams are uncommon.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat scizorkills

i think kyogre has more than a super special attacking sweeper purpuse now
now it has lots of rain abusers ubers is gonna be another wheather war
rain will rape evrything

lol.

The moment Kyogre dies, if your opponent has a Groudon, your rain strategies are automatically screwed.

[Mr_br_kill]

To try to move the topic in a more productive direction, what are say the top 5 threats in ubers. Kyorgue is definatly up there along with arceus, but what else? Mewtwo maybe?

[guanlong]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_br_kill

To try to move the topic in a more productive direction, what are say the top 5 threats in ubers. Kyorgue is definatly up there along with arceus, but what else? Mewtwo maybe?

Definitely Mewtwo. Psystrike made it the ultimate sweeper it was always meant to be. Psystrike/Aura Sphere/Ice Beam nets amazin neutral coverage and offers space for Calm Mind. It's definitely up there along with Kyogre and the Extreme Killer.

Other than that, Groudon is going to be ever popular, as it brings with it the sun, supporting several potent sweepers; it's also a deadly offensive powerhouse, hitting most Ubers hard with a simple combo of Earthquake + Stone Edge.

[JSND]

Top 5 for me :

Kyogre
Mewtwo
Darkrai or Ho-oh
Groudon
Zekrom

Special Place :
Arceus

[calze6]

What does everyone think is the most dominating poke in the metagame so far?

[JSND]

If i must choose, i might say arceus

But judging from what ive experienced, the meta is fairly stable.

[TM13IceBeam]

Arceus has the bulk to easily setup in the face of unboosted attacks and ExtremeSpeed the fuck out of everything.

Yeah, that. Random Ghost appeared? Shadow Claw/Force away! Random Steel appeared? Earthquake, gogogo.

ExtremeKiller Arceus is one hell of a centralising Pokemon. Unfortunately though, it can't pack a 5th move at the same time(lolRecover), or else the metagame would be very screwed up right now. Faster than almost everything unscarf'd, excellent bulk, what more can you want?

[Mr.lol]

Arceus's versatality and ability to make the other guy shout extremekiller sweep makes it the second top threat. It's versatility can cause mindgames and force a guy to switch a skarmory (assuming that switch was predicted) into a overheat or something worse. I think ferrothorn should be the top threat because it's nearly impossible to kill in the rain. Its odd base attack lets it 2hko weather starters that don't heavily invest in defense with power whip. Unless a person manages to surprise ferrothorn (specs ogre, trick, groudon with fire punch, mewtwo with taunt and wow?) or abuse some magical mirrors that thing can wall teams to their doom while setting up hazards. Not even forry can touch it because of it's ironic barbs.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Arceus's versatality and ability to make the other guy shout extremekiller sweep makes it the second top threat. It's versatility can cause mindgames and force a guy to switch a skarmory (assuming that switch was predicted) into a overheat or something worse. I think ferrothorn should be the top threat because it's nearly impossible to kill in the rain. Its odd base attack lets it 2hko weather starters that don't heavily invest in defense with power whip. Unless a person manages to surprise ferrothorn (specs ogre, trick, groudon with fire punch, mewtwo with taunt and wow?) or abuse some magical mirrors that thing can wall teams to their doom while setting up hazards. Not even forry can touch it because of it's ironic barbs.

Ferrothorn is just an annoyer. Sure, with enough SpD investment it can survive the occasional fire attacks, but Mewtwo wins anyway due to Aura Sphere(which apparently nobody runs, wtf?)

[guanlong]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Ferrothorn is just an annoyer. Sure, with enough SpD investment it can survive the occasional fire attacks, but Mewtwo wins anyway due to Aura Sphere(which apparently nobody runs, wtf?)

Aura Sphere is on the official analysis. You've probably been facing noobs or people running defensive sets.

Agreein with Ferrothorn as a big defensive threat. If you're running a Rain team, have something with a strong Fighting-type or incredibly powerful attack, such as Specs Water Spout. It cannot be killed by Fire attacks under the rain. Then again, Mixed Rayquaza with Fire Blast beats it easily, because many users expect the physical set. MixQuaza is pretty anti-metagame, and I like that.

Arceus is the biggest offensive threat, as it's nearly impossible to stop the Swords Dance Extremespeed set. It's hard to beat something with 744 Attack and a powerful priority attack. Thankfully, Ferrothorn, Giratina and other Arceus can stop it.

Also, if you ask me, I'd say that the metagame is pretty stable, with even the top threats having rather reliable checks.

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat guanlong

Agreein with Ferrothorn as a big defensive threat. If you're running a Rain team, have something with a strong Fighting-type or incredibly powerful attack, such as Specs Water Spout. It cannot be killed by Fire attacks under the rain. Then again, Mixed Rayquaza with Fire Blast beats it easily, because many users expect the physical set. MixQuaza is pretty anti-metagame, and I like that.

Arceus is the biggest offensive threat, as it's nearly impossible to stop the Swords Dance Extremespeed set. It's hard to beat something with 744 Attack and a powerful priority attack. Thankfully, Ferrothorn, Giratina and other Arceus can stop it.

I find the most reliable way to check Ferrothorn on a Rain Team is Dialga. Fire Blast will easily do over 50% even in rain.

I disagree that Extremekiller Arceus is the biggest threat. There are plenty of ways to check it such Bold Lugia, Defensive Arceus formes, Giratina, Scarf Terrakion and Jirachi, Support Groudon and so on and so forth. A rather greater threat at the moment is Kyogre. It is incredibly difficult to stop something like a Scarf Kyogre paired with a Ferrothorn. The two have great defensive synergy and the Spikes and Leech Seed from Ferrothorn will slowly wear away Scarf Kyogre checks like Scarf Palkia and eventually will open up your team for Kyogre. Grass Arceus can do a decent job at checking Kyoge but it loses if your opponent predicts correctly. However, it still is not a broken metagame since entry hazards will wear it down eventually.

I also feel entry hazards play a HUGE role this gen. Spinning is nigh impossible at the moment, with Giratina-O everywhere and it will only get more difficult to spin. However, I would still say its a stable metagame since nothing is completely unbeatable.

[Go10]

Originally Posted by Fat calze6

What does everyone think is the most dominating poke in the metagame so far?

Arceus obviously. Playing without him is like playing without SR, you've an handicap which can be troublesome.

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_br_kill

Have you even played ubers? Rain isn't that good. Uber rain is basically the same as last gen, and it wasn't overpowering at all. Not only do most rain sweepers lack the raw power to completely dominate as you say, uber sun teams are better then ever with 2 great uber abusers, ho oh and reshiram. Please think before you post and if your trolling, stop.

Not really. We've lost Latias, SpecsOgre can obliterate everything in his way and it's not your Ferrothorn who'll stop him. Yeah we have Palkia/Giratina/Ferrothorn but meh, a single layer of Spikes and/or SR ensure you'll 2HKO them. Sun is good since you have Reshiram / Ho-Oh, but seriously, the instant Power and the lack of SR weakness, Rain are really powerfull and can have issue even without the rain.

Actually, DialgaLO is the most annoying pokemon since he can TW everything and 2HKO/OHKO the TWcheck (bar Arceus Ground).

[TM13IceBeam]

Currently Latias is not used because Soul Dew is unreleased. Once it is, expect Latias to be an awesome check to any Kyogre who lacks Ice Beam.

[shrang]

I also feel entry hazards play a HUGE role this gen.

Which is why Tyranitar and Excadrill are so epic, since between them, pretty much no Ghost can stop you from spinning. Giratina-O is sent to hell with Tyranitar if it lacks Earthquake or Aura Sphere (Even then, Tyranitar can survive and Crunch it for massive damage, while Giratina and Ghost Arceus cannot stop Excadrill from killing them in time for a spin (Giratina is 2HKOed by +2 EQ, IIRC, even with the burn, while Ghost Arceus is straight up OHKOed).

[trickroom]

Max Attack Adamant LO Excadrill +2 Earthquake vs Giratina ---> 60.8% - 71.6%

It probably fails to 2HKO if Excadrill is burned on the turn it attacked, unless SR and sand is out (which should be). If you are Jolly the 2HKO is lost.

I don't think Arceus is mandatory for any Ubers team. Specs Kyogre is more of an ass to deal with compare to Arceus. The only thing which 100% stops Specs Kyogre is Gastrodon. Palkia and Ludicolo risk eating Thunders, and paralysis rapes Palkia.

Giratina being much rarer than usual is sad at the moment. Might popularize it later, bulkiest Uber shall not be forgotten!

[Go10]

Excadrill&Tyra can do nothing to Arceus Ghost since they'll be outspeed in most of case (SS is the most difficult weather to keep on the field) and and they'll be outstall or just killed by wow/focus. Only Giratina is screwed by Tar, but hey, he's very common so it's worth a try

Arceus is just very good on everything. It's not impossible to play without it but yeah, he's better than most of the metagame in what he've to do.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Go10

Excadrill&Tyra can do nothing to Arceus Ghost since they'll be outspeed in most of case (SS is the most difficult weather to keep on the field) and and they'll be outstall or just killed by wow/focus. Only Giratina is screwed by Tar, but hey, he's very common so it's worth a try

Arceus is just very good on everything. It's not impossible to play without it but yeah, he's better than most of the metagame in what he've to do.

You obviously haven't played a well made Sand team. Tyranitar is so bulky that it can easily repeated come in and set up the sand. It can switch in on stuff like Scarf Ice Beam, Spacial Rend, Dragon Pulse from stuff like Kyogre, Palkia, Dialga and whatever and take virtually nothing. In return, Dialga gets 2HKOed by Low Kick, while Kyogre and Palkia gets Pursuited when they are caught in the wrong move. While Groudon causes quite a bit of problems for Tyranitar, it is still quite easy to keep sand up, in which Excadrill can then SD up and spin, sweep, or do whatever. Groudon cannot switch in forever against Excadrill either.

[Go10]

I didnt played a Sand Team but I used Tar in almost every Uber team and know how good he's in Uber (especially in BW where Zor is nowhere). The fact is Tyranitar cant come in the field like Groudon / Ogre can and he'll be low health too soon. I think the best spot for Tar is the lead position where he can pratically win every duel (and he's my favorite lead).

Like Sun team in OU BW, Sand can be good, but they need a lot of support.

[PallyHeroRush52]

Why does a banlist have its own board? What's there to discuss?

[Fireburn]

Originally Posted by Fat PallyHeroRush52

Why does a banlist have its own board? What's there to discuss?

Please do not merely cast off Ubers as some trivial little list. It is a well-liked metagame that has a solid playerbase and is very strategic and fun.

Don't be ignorant.

[Vratix]

Originally Posted by Fat Fireburn

Please do not merely cast off Ubers as some trivial little list. It is a well-liked metagame that has a solid playerbase and is very strategic and fun.

Don't be ignorant.

In fact, Ubers is generally considered to be the game with the most stable metagame. By stable I do not mean dominated, Ubers has a number of equally viable and entirely unique teams.

This is something no other tier has ever come close to achieving. In many people's opinion Ubers is the best tier because it has all the key elements of a tier that the "legitimate" tiers do not always, or even often, possess.