General Metagame Discussion Thread - Page 4

TM13IceBeam · Jul 23rd, 2011, 9:45:46 AM

I think something needs to be done with the quality of the Ubers players(AGAIN). As you can see, Charizard, one of the most infamous Pokemon when it comes to noob players, is ranked at #37. This is HIGHER than actual Pokemon who don't suck in ubers, such as Tentacruel, Wobbuffet, Hydreigon, Terrakion, Latios, Gastrodon, Arceus-Fighting, Mew, and Latias. wtf?

Charizard is rather terrible in Ubers due to being badly SR weak, not to mention Ho-oh is like leagues better. Yet, when you see him outclassing one of the best checks to Kyogre(Gastrodon), something must be very wrong. Just my 2 cents though.

Virizion · Jul 23rd, 2011, 10:12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

I think something needs to be done with the quality of the Ubers players(AGAIN). As you can see, Charizard, one of the most infamous Pokemon when it comes to noob players, is ranked at #37. This is HIGHER than actual Pokemon who don't suck in ubers, such as Tentacruel, Wobbuffet, Hydreigon, Terrakion, Latios, Gastrodon, Arceus-Fighting, Mew, and Latias. wtf?

Charizard is rather terrible in Ubers due to being badly SR weak, not to mention Ho-oh is like leagues better. Yet, when you see him outclassing one of the best checks to Kyogre(Gastrodon), something must be very wrong. Just my 2 cents though.

It's nice to see PO players getting annoyed by Uber-noobs too, especially the mono-Fire Charizards (or maybe they have Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, AND Blast Burn all on one moveset).

TM13IceBeam · Jul 23rd, 2011, 10:18:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Virizion

It's nice to see PO players getting annoyed by Uber-noobs too, especially the mono-Fire Charizards (or maybe they have Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, AND Blast Burn all on one moveset).

I was speaking about the usage stats on Smogon(you can find them on the DST main board, it's stickied).

I thought it was fine outclassing Hydreigon, but when its outclassing actual options like Gastrodon, Latios and Terrakion, you know something is really wrong.

Virizion · Jul 23rd, 2011, 12:00:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

I was speaking about the usage stats on Smogon(you can find them on the DST main board, it's stickied).

I thought it was fine outclassing Hydreigon, but when its outclassing actual options like Gastrodon, Latios and Terrakion, you know something is really wrong.

I was under the impression that Shoddybattle or whatever has been abandoned? Those stats are from PO, and battling on it would make you, well, a PO-player.

And noobs would only probably think of using Terrakion (badly, I might add) out of those, since it's a recent, new "legendary".

TM13IceBeam · Jul 23rd, 2011, 12:10:18 PM

Oh. I thought you meant the PO beta server. My bad.

Terrakion is actually not half bad, with the speed to outrun most non-scarf'd ubers, outspeeds every single uber-mon after a Rock Polish(except for maybe Scarf Deo-A, Mewtwo and Skymin, I can't remember), while having excellent power in the meantime.

Heck, there's even a Terrakion analysis for Ubers:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80117

I'd hardly call it noob at all to say the least: Charizard is probably the noob one, it's hard to even run a decent set with Kyogres running about everywhere and Ho-oh generally outclasses it.

Virizion · Jul 23rd, 2011, 12:14:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Oh. I thought you meant the PO beta server. My bad.

Terrakion is actually not half bad, with the speed to outrun most non-scarf'd ubers, outspeeds every single uber-mon after a Rock Polish(except for maybe Scarf Deo-A, Mewtwo and Skymin, I can't remember), while having excellent power in the meantime.

Heck, there's even a Terrakion analysis for Ubers:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80117

I'd hardly call it noob at all to say the least: Charizard is probably the noob one, it's hard to even run a decent set with Kyogres running about everywhere and Ho-oh generally outclasses it.

Sorry for being a bit unclear, I meant the only reason a noob (A user of Charizard/Venusaur/Blastoise/Pika/Snorlax/etc.) would pick an actual good Pokémon is because it's "legendary", which is all they care about.

adman2 · Jul 23rd, 2011, 1:37:26 PM

I haven't seen any Charizards in my Uber battles, so maybe they're getting better about it.

What are the best ways for sun teams to deal with Giratina and especially Lugia? I'm having problems with them.

Forretress is somewhat common as a suicide lead in my PO battles (DW Ubers), and Ghost Arceus seems to be the most popular form.

For some reason, DW Ubers doesn't seem to have team previews, so it's more like the 4th gen. . .

TM13IceBeam · Jul 23rd, 2011, 1:57:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Virizion

Sorry for being a bit unclear, I meant the only reason a noob (A user of Charizard/Venusaur/Blastoise/Pika/Snorlax/etc.) would pick an actual good Pokémon is because it's "legendary", which is all they care about.

A few months ago Zekrom was the victim of this BS: it was 4th in usage on the PO server but the top 10 sets are all troll sets. Things like lolFly. :/

adman2 · Jul 24th, 2011, 9:46:18 AM

Okay, I'm running a Sun Uber team, and I'm having significant Mewtwo and Arceus problems (mainly Ghost and Normal Extremespeed kinds). What are some good ways to fight them?

I'm guessing Giratina for normal Arceus, but not for the Ghost variety. I really can't think of anything for Mewtwo (not even Chansey because of Psystrike). Please help.

TM13IceBeam · Jul 24th, 2011, 10:32:54 AM

The best way of beating Mewtwo imo is to use scarfers such as Kyogre to quickly kill it with Water Spout before it destroys you. If its running a scarf, that's where all the BS starts since you need loljask/lolScarfDeo-A to kill it now and it has the option of tricking away the scarf to something you don't really want it on(cripple it).

If you are truly that desperate, maybe try running CB Sheddy. Sure, Mewtwo can run Fire Blast, but it wants Ice Beam's coverage and the power offered by Psystrike. I guess Aura Sphere's replaceable though...

adman2 · Jul 24th, 2011, 12:35:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

The best way of beating Mewtwo imo is to use scarfers such as Kyogre to quickly kill it with Water Spout before it destroys you. If its running a scarf, that's where all the BS starts since you need loljask/lolScarfDeo-A to kill it now and it has the option of tricking away the scarf to something you don't really want it on(cripple it).

If you are truly that desperate, maybe try running CB Sheddy. Sure, Mewtwo can run Fire Blast, but it wants Ice Beam's coverage and the power offered by Psystrike. I guess Aura Sphere's replaceable though...

The Mewtwo I fight on PO tend to use Psystrike, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower, so Shedinja's probably out of luck.

Kyogre may clash too much with my Sun team, but it may be worth an experiment.

Mr.lol · Jul 24th, 2011, 2:59:36 PM

If it's raining jirachi roflstomps it and can paralyze + HAX, making mewtwo useless or use dual screens for teh lols and scare mewtwo out of his cat suit. Arceus-psychic trolls every mewtwo not running shadow ball even those running fire blast in the sun but who ever uses that. Scarf mewtwo gets trolled even further by their existence lol since it can't cm up.

**Tobes** · Jul 24th, 2011, 5:35:38 PM

Another think to keep in mind is that CM LO Mewtwo absoultely cannot stand being poisoned. Toxic Spikes from Forretress, random Toxics from things like Ferrothorn, Blissey, etc, all make it far more easy to deal with. Stall teams don't really need a scarfer to to handle it, although I've seen some stall teams that still run Scarf Palkia because it's just such a good glue. On that note here's an interesting set I've enjoyed using. It fits very well on stall teams that can get SR and 3 layers of Spikes down.

Palkia @ Leftovers
Pressure
Jolly 252/0/0/0/4/252
- Dragon Tail
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

A much more reliable check to Specs Kyogre, and it can phaze out a pretty large portion of the metagame before they can move 2 times out of 3. The hazard damage it can rack up can be brutal if you get a little lucky.

EDIT: I said check not counter -.-

**trickroom** · Jul 27th, 2011, 6:19:22 AM

Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder on your Palkia = 53.1% - 62.8% guaranteed 2HKO while Dragon Tail tickles Kyogre. Doesn't look like a good counter to me, sure you can come in on Water Spout but so can Scarf Palkia. Palkia is better off with Wish Support since Rest is pretty useless on Palkia.

Also you need Sleep Talk to select Roar or Dragon Tail to phaze Kyogre out before it kills you. Calm nature Grass Arceus with Calm Mind is a better counter for Specs Kyogre. Gastrodon is actually the best but it sucks against most Ubers.

shrang · Jul 27th, 2011, 6:57:05 AM

Okay, not only am I running Latias, I'm also running Rotom-C for my team now. Apart from Kyogre and a certain other favourite Pokemon of mine (who is also Toxic Spikes immune), my whole team floats just because of how prevalent Spikes are. Ferrothorn is such a piece of shit, I can't wait for Shadow Tag Chandelure to put thing in its place.

zzzzzzzzzzz · Aug 2nd, 2011, 5:58:42 PM

Quote:

Apart from Kyogre and a certain other favourite Pokemon of mine (who is also Toxic Spikes immune),

Ferrothorn?

Actually I just wanted to say that all teams without a spiker and a ghost are such an easy win before the game even starts... The only thing that really can threaten Ferrothorn teams is Forretress (and maybe Manaphy/Magic Bounce/Taunt Heatran/Gliscor/Dual Screen(anything else??) but I haven't run into any of them) and even then if you use your phazing moves smart he is not really a problem

and guys please don't use a mixed giratina-o without dragon tail, please

Hawkstar · Aug 13th, 2011, 3:27:39 PM

I honestly don't think a spiker and ghost pair are as important as it's made out to be. Entry hazards are nice, but I'd rather use those turns to get three Calm Minds rather than three layers of Spikes. The former on something like Ghost-Arceus or Mewtwo is a veritable win condition, but the latter isn't. I see no-hazards teams all the time, and I honestly fear those more because the stacked offense is too powerful for me to handle.

I also have a question to pose to the thread to get the ball rolling again: How important is a Steel-type in this metagame? Is it a requirement, or a bonus for teams to have?

Poppy · Aug 13th, 2011, 5:06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat adman2

Okay, I'm running a Sun Uber team, and I'm having significant Mewtwo and Arceus problems (mainly Ghost and Normal Extremespeed kinds). What are some good ways to fight them?

I'm guessing Giratina for normal Arceus, but not for the Ghost variety. I really can't think of anything for Mewtwo (not even Chansey because of Psystrike). Please help.

psychic arceus / sp.def jirachi check mewtwo. skarm covers non overheat arceus, scarf terrakion does good against normal arceus, as does lugia. ghost arceus is trickier but skarm is usually good, if it's cm arceus sp.def cb ttar does great, most darkrai checks all forms of ghost arceus provided it doesn't switch into brick break.

Latiax · Aug 14th, 2011, 12:57:24 AM

Has anyone else noticed how amazingly shedninja works in ubers with the lack of damaging weather compared to OU and the fact that it completely walls things like kyogre?

ssbbm · Aug 14th, 2011, 1:09:47 AM

Shedinja still is bad lol. SR kills you, Spikes kills you, Toxic Spikes kills you, basically everything can take a +2 hit, and Ferrothorn kills you when you attack it.

zzzzzzzzzzz · Aug 14th, 2011, 7:50:31 AM

you don't need 3 layers of spikes, I'd rather get one and use those two turn to spam other moves. one spikes combined with stealth rock is usually 25% on the switch, and gives you a very nice advantage. ofc if you can get all three go for them. Arceus is usually easily dealt with unless it is some steel arceus with fire blast or some gimmick like that while every team is prepared for mewtwo. Anyway IMO the best check to Mewtwo is scarf Kyogre as it can actually switch in on anything and OHKO. Psychic Arceus is very situational (compare to ground arceus, anyone?).

TM13IceBeam · Aug 14th, 2011, 8:23:34 AM

Running for as much layers as possible is the goal of stall teams...

Scarfogre is dented badly by Psystrike and Scarf Mewtwo wins Scarf Kyogre.

Sheddy is ok at best but it requires far too much support to work, you need to run Forretress or Espeon if you really want to use Shedinja; I'd rather go with Gastrodon for trolling Kyogre.

Mr.lol · Aug 14th, 2011, 2:06:40 PM

I did some really odd testing and apparently ive found the old school stall 2 to be a very nice mewtwo counter ironically. Scarfed ones lack the raw power it takes to dent him, cm ones are tauned and dont pose a big threat unless their firing sun boosted fire blasts, light screen makes both of the mewtwo's attacks in the range where they can be recovered off. This guy is also not situational being able to burn scarf ogre on the switch in and recover off the damage its spouts do behind a light screen is amazing.

Quote:

Palkia @ Leftovers
Pressure
Jolly 252/0/0/0/4/252
- Dragon Tail
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I tested this out because i was in need for just a basic general kyogre counter, and it actually works very well. I shifted some evs from speed into sp def to outspeed max speed ray (since well the most common base speed 100 is palkia whose normally scarfed and im not outspeeding that) and the added special bulk makes him able to have a pretty decent chance of surviving 2 timid specs thunders. Not to mention modest specs spout fails to 2hko 100% of the time with rocks and a layer of spikes up. Here's a log of palkia and that stall 2 working.

...

Quote:

Sheddy is ok at best but it requires far too much support to work, you need to run Forretress or Espeon if you really want to use Shedinja; I'd rather go with Gastrodon for trolling Kyogre.

UM you could opt for the item which makes you immune to spikes and toxic spikes which i will not name in fear of this part of the post being removed. If those weaknesses were removed it doesn't require nearly as much support to use. I do have quite a few logs of a team that actually works with it. I'll provide one log of it working, but i have removed mentions of my opponents name in case he doesn't want it seen.

[beware this is a troll <.<, not meant to be taken intentionally by anyone, nor used as a standard for competetive battling]

...

Shedy can also help stall stand through some of stalls greatest threats such as Specsogre and Stallbreaking sub cm giratina-o (well assuming it opts for dragon pulse + aura sphere over shadow ball + aura sphere) .

ssbbm · Aug 16th, 2011, 1:14:26 PM

actually i lied shedinja is a boss when you combine it with xatu :x

Steamroll · Aug 16th, 2011, 6:00:45 PM

I only see sheddie being used as a switch-in to kyogre still (particularly the one's that don't have HP fire). I've even seen Quagsire's numbers increasing to wall kyogre even though encore is fixed at three turns.

Jul 23rd, 2011, 9:45:46 AM	#76
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	I think something needs to be done with the quality of the Ubers players(AGAIN). As you can see, Charizard, one of the most infamous Pokemon when it comes to noob players, is ranked at #37. This is HIGHER than actual Pokemon who don't suck in ubers, such as Tentacruel, Wobbuffet, Hydreigon, Terrakion, Latios, Gastrodon, Arceus-Fighting, Mew, and Latias. wtf? Charizard is rather terrible in Ubers due to being badly SR weak, not to mention Ho-oh is like leagues better. Yet, when you see him outclassing one of the best checks to Kyogre(Gastrodon), something must be very wrong. Just my 2 cents though. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 23rd, 2011, 12:10:18 PM	#80
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Oh. I thought you meant the PO beta server. My bad. Terrakion is actually not half bad, with the speed to outrun most non-scarf'd ubers, outspeeds every single uber-mon after a Rock Polish(except for maybe Scarf Deo-A, Mewtwo and Skymin, I can't remember), while having excellent power in the meantime. Heck, there's even a Terrakion analysis for Ubers:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80117 I'd hardly call it noob at all to say the least: Charizard is probably the noob one, it's hard to even run a decent set with Kyogres running about everywhere and Ho-oh generally outclasses it. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 23rd, 2011, 1:37:26 PM	#82
adman2 Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,153 Unsuccessfully RNGing Bronzong	I haven't seen any Charizards in my Uber battles, so maybe they're getting better about it. What are the best ways for sun teams to deal with Giratina and especially Lugia? I'm having problems with them. Forretress is somewhat common as a suicide lead in my PO battles (DW Ubers), and Ghost Arceus seems to be the most popular form. For some reason, DW Ubers doesn't seem to have team previews, so it's more like the 4th gen. . . __________________ Always have a Steel type on your team, kiddies! Officially THE most hated Uber battler on PO: Bengel. :) Be the opposite of me and you'll go far.

Jul 24th, 2011, 9:46:18 AM	#84
adman2 Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,153 Unsuccessfully RNGing Bronzong	Okay, I'm running a Sun Uber team, and I'm having significant Mewtwo and Arceus problems (mainly Ghost and Normal Extremespeed kinds). What are some good ways to fight them? I'm guessing Giratina for normal Arceus, but not for the Ghost variety. I really can't think of anything for Mewtwo (not even Chansey because of Psystrike). Please help. __________________ Always have a Steel type on your team, kiddies! Officially THE most hated Uber battler on PO: Bengel. :) Be the opposite of me and you'll go far.

Jul 24th, 2011, 10:32:54 AM	#85
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	The best way of beating Mewtwo imo is to use scarfers such as Kyogre to quickly kill it with Water Spout before it destroys you. If its running a scarf, that's where all the BS starts since you need loljask/lolScarfDeo-A to kill it now and it has the option of tricking away the scarf to something you don't really want it on(cripple it). If you are truly that desperate, maybe try running CB Sheddy. Sure, Mewtwo can run Fire Blast, but it wants Ice Beam's coverage and the power offered by Psystrike. I guess Aura Sphere's replaceable though... __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 24th, 2011, 2:59:36 PM	#87
Mr.lol Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 652 complex plane	If it's raining jirachi roflstomps it and can paralyze + HAX, making mewtwo useless or use dual screens for teh lols and scare mewtwo out of his cat suit. Arceus-psychic trolls every mewtwo not running shadow ball even those running fire blast in the sun but who ever uses that. Scarf mewtwo gets trolled even further by their existence lol since it can't cm up.

Jul 24th, 2011, 5:35:38 PM	#88
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,250 GONER	Another think to keep in mind is that CM LO Mewtwo absoultely cannot stand being poisoned. Toxic Spikes from Forretress, random Toxics from things like Ferrothorn, Blissey, etc, all make it far more easy to deal with. Stall teams don't really need a scarfer to to handle it, although I've seen some stall teams that still run Scarf Palkia because it's just such a good glue. On that note here's an interesting set I've enjoyed using. It fits very well on stall teams that can get SR and 3 layers of Spikes down. Palkia @ Leftovers Pressure Jolly 252/0/0/0/4/252 - Dragon Tail - Roar - Rest - Sleep Talk A much more reliable check to Specs Kyogre, and it can phaze out a pretty large portion of the metagame before they can move 2 times out of 3. The hazard damage it can rack up can be brutal if you get a little lucky. EDIT: I said check not counter -.- __________________ Last edited by Tobes; Jul 27th, 2011 at 1:22:51 PM.

Aug 13th, 2011, 3:27:39 PM	#92
Hawkstar Are you hanging by a thread or swinging from the rope? Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 631 Western Pennsylvania	I honestly don't think a spiker and ghost pair are as important as it's made out to be. Entry hazards are nice, but I'd rather use those turns to get three Calm Minds rather than three layers of Spikes. The former on something like Ghost-Arceus or Mewtwo is a veritable win condition, but the latter isn't. I see no-hazards teams all the time, and I honestly fear those more because the stacked offense is too powerful for me to handle. I also have a question to pose to the thread to get the ball rolling again: How important is a Steel-type in this metagame? Is it a requirement, or a bonus for teams to have? __________________ Art thread! [22:11] Helias: FUCK YOU HAWKSTAR THAT'S NOT MY NAME

Aug 14th, 2011, 12:57:24 AM	#94
Latiax Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 24 NJ	Has anyone else noticed how amazingly shedninja works in ubers with the lack of damaging weather compared to OU and the fact that it completely walls things like kyogre?

Aug 14th, 2011, 1:09:47 AM	#95
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 999 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	Shedinja still is bad lol. SR kills you, Spikes kills you, Toxic Spikes kills you, basically everything can take a +2 hit, and Ferrothorn kills you when you attack it.

Aug 14th, 2011, 7:50:31 AM	#96
zzzzzzzzzzz Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 167 uber ladder	you don't need 3 layers of spikes, I'd rather get one and use those two turn to spam other moves. one spikes combined with stealth rock is usually 25% on the switch, and gives you a very nice advantage. ofc if you can get all three go for them. Arceus is usually easily dealt with unless it is some steel arceus with fire blast or some gimmick like that while every team is prepared for mewtwo. Anyway IMO the best check to Mewtwo is scarf Kyogre as it can actually switch in on anything and OHKO. Psychic Arceus is very situational (compare to ground arceus, anyone?). __________________ RISE AGAIN METAGROSS

Aug 14th, 2011, 8:23:34 AM	#97
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Running for as much layers as possible is the goal of stall teams... Scarfogre is dented badly by Psystrike and Scarf Mewtwo wins Scarf Kyogre. Sheddy is ok at best but it requires far too much support to work, you need to run Forretress or Espeon if you really want to use Shedinja; I'd rather go with Gastrodon for trolling Kyogre. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Aug 16th, 2011, 1:14:26 PM	#99
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 999 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	actually i lied shedinja is a boss when you combine it with xatu :x

Aug 16th, 2011, 6:00:45 PM	#100
Steamroll Woof Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,750 (*・_・)ノ⌒┻━┻ Mentor	I only see sheddie being used as a switch-in to kyogre still (particularly the one's that don't have HP fire). I've even seen Quagsire's numbers increasing to wall kyogre even though encore is fixed at three turns.