Wolf powers

[Objection]

I was following the thread for Luigi's Mansion mafia and I noticed that the wolf's powers in that game were limited to kill and full role PM inspect, which was considered weaksauce. This reminded me of the wolf in UN mafia whose abilities were kill, total protection once every three nights, and alliance check - again, weaksauce. Therefore, I am posting this question so that, hopefully, nobody ever makes a weaksauce wolf again:

Apart from kill, what kind of powers does a wolf need/should a wolf have?

EDIT: Crap, I meant to post this in Office of Strategic Influence. Can someone move this thread there please?

[LonelyNess]

There are a few things a wolf needs to be successful.

1.) At least 1 partner

A solo wolf is just not viable outside ridiculous luck. With a partner, a wolf can threaten retribution to the party that offs half of the partnership. This threat is often enough to keep the village / mafia from killing the wolf until they know WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that they will not be the target of revenge kills. Without a partner, the wolf is essentially extra kills for the mafia, since they'll just off him when ever it's convenient, with no potential for backfiring.

2.) An in with the village

Without this, a wolf can't hope to win because they won't be able to get enough information from just a single inspection. Additionally, any wolf that isn't tricking the village into thinking he's not the wolf is just a vigilante until he no longer cooperates... then he's going to get lynched. In order to be successful a wolf has to be able to conceal himself WELL within the village. How you go about doing this is up to you. Whether it be implied village leader-ism (maybe making him vanilla inspector where the village has no vanilla inspector), or making him fool village inspectors with false inspection results... whichever route you want to go. Just make sure there is SOME way for him to get outted (perhaps mafia inspections work on him but village ones don't).

3.) Protection from rands

It needs to be extremely difficult for the wolf to die in the first half of the game. Even if he gets randed, he should have ample abilities to avoid death until at least late game, otherwise the odds of the entire faction dying randomly are pretty high.

[K2000]

Well most lone wolf roles I've seen can only kill, so I would consider that enough, personally wolfs seem overpowered on here instead of underpowered (compared to games I've played+

[Objection]

I suspect that, compared to the games you've played before, the village and mafia are also considerably more powerful here.

[K2000]

They look more powerful, but compared to games I've played games on here don't have clues

[vonFiedler]

Clues?

[K2000]

Originally Posted by Fat vonFiedler

Clues?

Yes, mafia games where role reveling gets you godkilled, and you have to solve clues to find the mafians.

[Walrein]

Originally Posted by Fat K2000

Yes, mafia games where role reveling gets you godkilled, and you have to solve clues to find the mafians.

That actually sounds like an interesting concept :/

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat K2000

Well most lone wolf roles I've seen can only kill, so I would consider that enough, personally wolfs seem overpowered on here instead of underpowered (compared to games I've played+

No offense but you have not played many Smogon games so you can't make a judgment yet on role power. Smogon mafia, due to the power of its roles, is more about resource management than solving riddles or lengthy days with much uncertain psychological discource. Killing is not at all enough because he will never be able to feasibly win. Wolf power is a really touchy thing, it's so easy to make them OP or UP. I basically agree with LN but here is how I would put it:

1. A partner, preferably with kind of information role, some limited protection, or a hook/thief, nothing broken but something that will help him get ahead...

I dunno, you can try a solo wolf but it's a lot harder for a lone wolf to win by himself. I personally believe in most games partner should inherit kill rather than disappear if the main dude gets randed, but I guess it's different if it's already a really powerful main wolf

2. Agree with some kind of 'in' with the village, maybe not a mole role, (especially if he has an information role... being in with the village is a good way to get information too) but at least some way of false claiming, that rewards good play and makes it easier to get in. An item or his partner's role can help here

3. Let him tank. Even if that means limiting earlygame kills in trade for defensive prowess, it's better than your wolf dying N1, especially if he's important to kill balance (wolves generally are because they have to keep the playing field even until they're strong enough to overcome it)

I think weaksauce wolves are always gonna be made though, they're a tricky thing to balance (neutrals in general are) and you have to balance them in respects to your own game. If roles are weaker in your game then you must make him weaker too and vice versa

[Yeti]

Originally Posted by Fat K2000

They look more powerful, but compared to games I've played games on here don't have clues

[K2000]

Just because I haven't played on here doesn't mean I can't read though old games on here Jumpluff and form an idea about games on here.

[Quagsires]

Originally Posted by Fat K2000

Just because I haven't played on here doesn't mean I can't read though old games on here Jumpluff and form an idea about games on here.

Before saying anything like that, realize that this is an entirely different metagame than most mafias on the internet (someone show me something similar to multifaction on another site. While you have strict guidelines on game creation as well as a more simplistic format of even including "vanilla" (outside of NOC, we have none), we are more interested in games that have multiple mafias, no mafias and no villages, and even having roles per person to make it more complex.

That being said, if we just gave a wolf just a kill in ANY game here, they would lose. Even if we give the role an abundance of abilities and protections, wolf victories are still extremely rare. Part of this is our reliance on claiming and then disproving the claim, as opposed to yours where claiming is worthy of godkills. And in a game revolving around claiming, claiming the ability to kill for any faction is worthy of suspicion, claiming something unprovable or hard to prove like mayor and rogue provokes more, and not claiming at all gets you lynched.

If you want to argue that your format is better, then please show us how by creating a game here and hosting it. Otherwise, we cannot really say one is better.

Back onto the topic, I believe LN and Jumpluff had very good points about a wolf, although I disagree in the necessity of two players on a team together as wolves, although they do have a much lower chance of winning than two, they can win if they are skilled enough to manipulate the factions to their advantage.

However, I will comment that for a Beginner level game, the wolf in Luigi's mansion is about average, although for a standard and higher I would advocate for additional roles and protections for them as LN stated were necessary for a wolf victory.

[UncleSam]

Originally Posted by Fat LonelyNess

There are a few things a wolf needs to be successful.

1.) At least 1 partner

A solo wolf is just not viable outside ridiculous luck. With a partner, a wolf can threaten retribution to the party that offs half of the partnership. This threat is often enough to keep the village / mafia from killing the wolf until they know WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that they will not be the target of revenge kills. Without a partner, the wolf is essentially extra kills for the mafia, since they'll just off him when ever it's convenient, with no potential for backfiring.

2.) An in with the village

Without this, a wolf can't hope to win because they won't be able to get enough information from just a single inspection. Additionally, any wolf that isn't tricking the village into thinking he's not the wolf is just a vigilante until he no longer cooperates... then he's going to get lynched. In order to be successful a wolf has to be able to conceal himself WELL within the village. How you go about doing this is up to you. Whether it be implied village leader-ism (maybe making him vanilla inspector where the village has no vanilla inspector), or making him fool village inspectors with false inspection results... whichever route you want to go. Just make sure there is SOME way for him to get outted (perhaps mafia inspections work on him but village ones don't).

3.) Protection from rands

It needs to be extremely difficult for the wolf to die in the first half of the game. Even if he gets randed, he should have ample abilities to avoid death until at least late game, otherwise the odds of the entire faction dying randomly are pretty high.

1. Is, in my opinion, only necessary in big games. The reason is pretty simple: a two-man team in a twenty-five man game is often at least half of the size of a mafia team, and if given decent powers is often far more deadly than a mafia team. Plenty of solo wolves have won small games; it's just that in big games (where it is inevitable the wolf will have to reveal himself) a solo wolf has no real chance.

2. This is the one single most overlooked thing by hosts in my opinion. A wolf with no way to evade detection (apart from basic claiming) has essentially no chance of evading detection long-term, and the wolf needs to avoid being detected to win in a small game (in a big game he needs this so that him or his partner don't get offed early by the village). Often in games there are "obvious" villager role names or roles that hosts inevitable make villagers, which helps the village unite and makes it virtually impossible to mole for either mafia or the hopeless wolf. Giving the wolf ins with the village on a regular basis, in my opinion, will kill two birds with one stone: people will simultaneously stop claiming to the first "Hi I'm inspect!" claim or "Hi I am X an obvious villager name given the theme of this game all claim!", and will have to actually think before claiming to anyone. To boot, this will give the wolf a legitimate chance to win, and will help the mafia factions (who tend to have a hard time in Standard or Beginner games as is). Hosts really should start doing this.

3. Couldn't agree with this more (except for my agreement with no. 2 I guess). Wolves need either a BPV, an IPV, a LPV, or something else that gives them a way to win. No need to go overboard on these; just add in a BPV or something in addition to an in with the village and suddenly the wolf has all of his bases covered.

[Layell]

I'd like to take this moment and say that clues are total bullshit since in the first Pokemon Mafia when I was ControllerOfFlames the first clue could be google searched and turned up as the fire energy card.

I was boned.

Have there been any games where the wolf has a partner? Perhaps two lives and a revenge ability on the person/faction that took down the first one could be of some ability. The ability in one game of either protect self/kill and I think also inspect was interesting.

Also have there been any matches where the wolf won or was reasonably close to winning?

EDIT: I also remember one game with an evolving wolf where after being alive it loses protection but in turn gains more power, imaginative abilities like this would work well.

[K2000]

Originally Posted by Fat Quagsires

Before saying anything like that, realize that this is an entirely different metagame than most mafias on the internet (someone show me something similar to multifaction on another site. While you have strict guidelines on game creation as well as a more simplistic format of even including "vanilla" (outside of NOC, we have none), we are more interested in games that have multiple mafias, no mafias and no villages, and even having roles per person to make it more complex.

That being said, if we just gave a wolf just a kill in ANY game here, they would lose. Even if we give the role an abundance of abilities and protections, wolf victories are still extremely rare. Part of this is our reliance on claiming and then disproving the claim, as opposed to yours where claiming is worthy of godkills. And in a game revolving around claiming, claiming the ability to kill for any faction is worthy of suspicion, claiming something unprovable or hard to prove like mayor and rogue provokes more, and not claiming at all gets you lynched.

If you want to argue that your format is better, then please show us how by creating a game here and hosting it. Otherwise, we cannot really say one is better.

Back onto the topic, I believe LN and Jumpluff had very good points about a wolf, although I disagree in the necessity of two players on a team together as wolves, although they do have a much lower chance of winning than two, they can win if they are skilled enough to manipulate the factions to their advantage.

However, I will comment that for a Beginner level game, the wolf in Luigi's mansion is about average, although for a standard and higher I would advocate for additional roles and protections for them as LN stated were necessary for a wolf victory.

Well I do intend to host a clue mafia on here, but a friend who is also on this site, and the one I have learnt to play on said learn the crowd first, also I never said that clue mafias were better, in fact I have even played in one non clue mafia, that had two mafias, and it was ok but I sucked at it (was my first ever mafia game and I was subbed in), while I might have not hosted a game before (I am on the waiting list to host one else where) I would be happy to make a clue mafia to see what you guys/gals think of it.

[Staraptor Call]

Remember Unicycle Mafia? The wolf in that game almost won, and was marked as "110% clean" in the village sheet because there was a village role that strongly implied the wolf's safeclaim was in the game. That is a good example of helping the wolf by giving the wolf an "in" on the village. Also, because wolf roles are usually experienced players, wolves are often randed early in the game. It would be a good idea to give the wolf a BPV and/or IPV that wears off after a certain amount of time.

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat Staraptor Call

It would be a good idea to give the wolf a BPV and/or IPV that wears off after a certain amount of time.

{ 11:54:02 AM } <Raikage> an inspect-proof can only be a fake pm
{ 11:54:03 AM } <%Jirachi> referring to IPVs
{ 11:54:09 AM } <%Jirachi> i agree with raikage
{ 11:54:11 AM } <Raikage> or a fake hook
{ 11:54:12 AM } <%Jirachi> this is too suspicious otherwise

if it's a fake pm it's just a mole role anyway

or did you typo LPV?

[Steven Snype]

Originally Posted by Fat Staraptor Call

Remember Unicycle Mafia? The wolf in that game almost won, and was marked as "110% clean" in the village sheet because there was a village role that strongly implied the wolf's safeclaim was in the game. That is a good example of helping the wolf by giving the wolf an "in" on the village. Also, because wolf roles are usually experienced players, wolves are often randed early in the game. It would be a good idea to give the wolf a BPV and/or IPV that wears off after a certain amount of time.

Based on personal experience, I can attest that it's not that effective for long. If it's a BPV, mafia (or any killing faction) will want to kill him again since a) he's probably a village BPV or b) is someone worthwhile that they don't know being bodyguarded. If it's an IPV and village inspects him to get a failed inspect result and no village safeguard says they SG'd him, first thing that comes to mind for me is mafia SG.

A mole role only works when the role is actually legit (not a passive ability like LPV/BPV) and the wolf actually has that power. If I see a passive ability, I usually assume that they've got a targeting role but are hoping that by claiming a passive ability role they don't get hooked.

I like the idea of a wolf with evolving abilities and a wolf with a partner. Wolves by themselves won't get very far since most games these days are alone while most people have others backing them up in multifaction games. If a wolf could recruit a player, that would be pretty interesting. Replace the target's role with something preset and the target's teammates would have no idea about it. Also, maybe changing the wolf's win condition from "you win if everybody else is dead" to something more feasible and appealing to some players who may want him alive. Ex: The wolf role in alliance that only needed to kill 1 member of the killing factions himself (though the game was already rough for the killing factions).

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat Layell

Have there been any games where the wolf has a partner?

It's kinda the norm now. The big mafia that just ended had a wolf and a guy who, when another one was killed (which was set up to be early game), became his partner.

Also it doesn't necessarily have to be two players, Quags, even just two aliases in an alias game, for example, but two players (alias each) is a simple way of buffing a wolf, guarding from rands, and helping it suceed.

PS: Quags saved me from responding to K2000.

PPS: Can we not derail this conversation with clue mafia crap? If you want to talk about clue mafias make a new thread in the Office.

[UncleSam]

To be quite honest, the main reason I dislike wolf duos is that it isn't really a "wolf"...it's just a mini-faction, like the mafia or village but with fewer members and stronger roles.

Of course I also don't see their necessity in a small game (as I explained earlier), but that's a separate issue.

[jumpluff*]

I am pretty sure half the reason some people put wolves in their games is 'tradition', that or to keep the playing field even as I mentioned

[Mekkah**]

Wolves are put into games because they're fun to design and make the game a good deal less predictable. They are inherently imbalanced because they have a huge influence on the game (about as large as an entire faction) and yet they can be wiped out within a cycle or so.

[Outlaw]

We all know Cthulu was the best wolf role ever anyway.

[polelover44]

How does rule 2 apply to multifaction games, though?

More to the point, what should hosts do to make a balanced wolf despite the fact that rule 2 doesn't apply?

[LifeAdmiral]

For the record, when I had wolf in MOB Mafia, it was also weaksauce. Just nightly kill. No protection, I just knew that I had three power-ups but I had to kill said person to get them.