Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Peterko]

My Oma-Top post ended with the words: "Obviously, I´ll give this team more screen time, it´s just that I probably need a break to get my „skill“ back lol."

#11: Rhyperior, Dusknoir, Gyarados, Volcarona
1. FO rhy, shadow sneak, shell smash
2. sucker punch failed, muddy water, rhy KO, trick room
-> gyarados
3. shadow sneak, waterfall Oma KO, sucker failed
-> latios
4. dusk fling OHKO latios, Top aerial ace KO Noir, Gyara giga impact
-> Scizor / Volcarona
5. Top aerial ace, flame body burn, Scizor bug bite KO volc, Gyara recharge, burn KO Top
6. Scizor bug bite 40%, Gyara waterfall 60%, TR ended
7. Scizor Bullet punch, Gyara waterfall KO
0-1

Ahahahaha, losing at #11 is soo "raising my level of play"...

#76 vs Ace Trainer Farley: Porygon2 & Mienshao
1. Pory2 dowload spA raise, Top FO Pory2, Mien HJK, Focu Sash, Oma Shell Smash.
2. Switched in Scizor to absorb the predicted Feint, Mien HJK, CH OHKO Scizor, Top AA 95% to Mien, Pory2 Tri Attack CH, Top fainted.
- me Latios+Oma in
3. Latios Dragon Pulse, Mien fainted, Oma Muddy Water, Pory2 accuracy fell, Pory2 Shadow Ball, Oma fainted.
- oponent Arcanine, intimidate
4. Latios DPulse, Pory2 fainted, Arca Crunch, Latios at 52/156 HP.
- oponent Metagross
5. Latios DPulse, Arca Sitrus Berry, Arca Crunch, Latios fainted.
0-2

Apparently Mien4 is a kicker and doesn´t like FO nor Feint. I was really shocked at the double CH because I´m used to CH myself as I´m the one whose attacking, most of the time. Won´t even start on the insane Shell Smash in front of a priority Fighter, go me.

Next streak...

#78 vs Socialite: Zapdos, Cobalion, Thundurus, Suicune
1. Top Fake Out, Zap avoided (#1), Zap DT, Coba ???, Oma Shell Smash.
2. Top Mach Punch >50% dmg to Coba, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#2), Coba Iron Head Top, Zap DT.
3. Top Mach Punch, Coba fainted, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#3), Zap DT.
- oponent Thundurus
4. Top Sucker Punch 48% dmg to Thund, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#4), Thund Thunderbolt, Oma Sash, Zap DT.
5. Top Sucker Punch 48% dmg to Thund, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#5), Thund Thunderbolt, Oma fainted, Zap Charge Beam (no boost), Top lives with <10 HP.
- me Latios
6. Top Mach Punch, Thund fainted, LO dmg, Top fainted, Latios Dragon Pulse, Zap avoided (#6), Zap Charge Beam (no boost).
- me Scizor, oponent Suicune
7. Latios DPulse Cune >50% dmg, Cune Icy Wind, Zap Heat Wave, Sizor fainted.
8. Cune Blizzard, gg....no Latios avoided, Latios DPulse, Cune fainted, Zap Heat Wave (or DT).
9. Latios DPulse 60% dmg, Zap Heat Wave.
10. Latios DPulse, Zap avoided (#7), Zap DT.
11. Latios DPulse, Zap avoided (#8), Zap Heat Wave CH, Latios <10 HP.
12. Latios DPulse, Zap fainted.
1-0

I hate that Subway Zapdos with a passion. With 197 HP / 115 def / 142 sD and BrightPowder+DT+Roost it´s almost impossible to take down once you start missing it, which you will. Pressure doesn´t help your cause either. It´s been a long time since I´ve been this annoyed (angry) during a battle, no wonder. Shell Smash HP Rock is a clear OHKO, which is amazing...if you hit. Honestly, I didn´t expect Latios to be the hero an actually pull off an impossible win. He did. The streak went on, until...

#135 vs Roughneck Ganymed: Gliscor, Mamoswine, Wailord, Cryogonal
1. Top Fake Out Mamo, Mamo avoided, Gliscor Acrobatics Top to 94/156 HP, Oma Shell Smash, Mamo Quake, Oma Sash, Top 9/156 HP.
2. Top Sucker Punch Glisc, LO dmg, Top fainted, Oma Muddy Water, Glisc avoided, Mamo avoided, Mamo Quake, Oma fainted.
- me Latios + Scizor
3. Latios DPulse, Glisc fainted, Scizor SD, Mamo Quake Scizor to 78/156 HP.
- oponent Wailord
4. Scizor Bullet Punch, Mamo fainted, Latios DPulse 85% to Wailord, Wailord Hydro Pump, Scizor fainted.
- oponent Cryogonal
5. Latios DPulse, Wailord fainted, Cryo Blizzard, Latios fainted.
0-1

Well, well, an ugly Fake Out miss due to Lax Incense followed by a double-miss with Muddy Water, f..k. Telling myself and everyone else that a double-miss hasn´t gotten me beaten yet was yesterday (actually, before Thursday). I do wonder though why I didn´t just attack with both turn1. FO+Ice Beam Gliscor or FO+Muddy Water or even Mach Punch+Muddy Water. A double miss in the latter scenario wouldn´t have been as bad.

Next, I SD Scizor instead of attacking...Superpower OHKOs Mamoswine. Even at –1, Bullet Punch does like 140% min dmg to Cryogonal. Even BP+DP on Mamoswine and letting Gliscor do whatever it wants (supposedly U-Turn Latios) would´ve been better. Oh well, maybe I would´ve missed Mamo, because Lax Incense is the most evil item.

Now Latios Dragon Pulse does 213-252 dmg / 277 HP (77-91%) to Wailord while Grass Knot is an OHKO. 6/12 Roughneck Pokémon are weak to Grass Knot (Mamo / Rhy / Whis / Phan / Wail / Walr), another 2 are hit hard by it (Basti/Glis), Rapi/Pins/Vanil/Cryo are bad for Grass Knot. But, it OHKOs Mamoswine, so I could´ve used GK+SD turn 3....

Of course, Pokémon and everything else in life is not about „what if“...I lost the battle... so the fact still stands, that I achieved the highest streak with this team on the first try, which is weird.

[DrDimentio]

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

In fact, as fun as Cloyster is to play (mostly the amazing feeling of Shell Smash Skill Link Icicle Spear 3-0ing teams), I haven´t even gotten to 35 with it...maybe it´s not that good or maybe I just suck so much lol. Also the 75 BP Physical Water move sucks badly so next time I´ll go Naughty with Surf or even Hydro Pump (lol no). Rock Blast is OK but boy 90 acc with such a set up mon feels like 50/50 in the Subway.

I can relate, having used Cloyster for fun before. Since we've both failed to get decent streaks with it, we can probably conclude that it sucks in the Subway. Rock Blast's accuracy (and that crappy Water move I don't even want to name) ruins many sweeps.

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

@ DrDimentio

On the contrary, I find Salamence's immunity to Ground and resistance to Fighting extremely useful when pairing up with a set up steel-Pokemon, because you will not always be able to set them up via Trick alone. Intimidate is -very- useful due to Salamence's typing; you can afford to switch back and forth repeatedly and lower the target's Attack enough so somebody can set up. Also Salamence is much bulkier than Haxorus (95/80/80 vs 76/90/70. That's at least 2.5% more physical bulk (and not even factoring Intimidate), and 25.9% more special bulk, and can easily set up and keep its Substitutes alive.

Yeah, the team context is arguably the most important factor when it comes to choosing a dragon. I have enough experience with Salamence in 4th gen, it was central to my 646-streak team as posted here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2138

... so I can completely understand all the advantages such as switching back and forth with Registeel to get Intimidates. As for its bulk, it was only just enough for its Substitutes to survive certain Tricked attacks such as Heatran's Magma Storm through Light Screen, but in the Subway the general power level of Pokemon has increased, so I'm sure there are more things that can break a Salamence Sub.

The only reason I'd use Haxorus over Salamence is for the Electric resist (and even then, Haxorus' base 70 spdef doesn't do it much favor). Mold Breaker is just a bonus. Rock neutrality isn't even much of an advantage either - most rock attackers are physical and Salamence/Steel Pokemon can quickly reduce that damage to nothing, while Haxorus takes a chunkload and can't do anything about it.

I was mainly using it for fun (such as getting up to 49 quicker than with my main team) and experimentation, so I didn't have a team perfectly designed around it.

Originally Posted by Fat Carl

Speaking as someone who has tried to make Haxorus work in the singles subway, it just doesn't cut it due to its frail defenses. I've played with both Adamant and Jolly and while I think the added attack is the way to go, it's tough to really abuse something like Trick to get it going. Granted, you usually only need 2 DD's to mow through an opponent but sometimes you can only afford to get in one. Mold Breaker is a nice bonus but it won't save you against things with Focus Sash and with how hard it is to get a sub to stay up, you're going to get burned sooner or later.

I also used Adamant. I've been using methods other than Trick to set it up, though...

I actually think Dragonite is the probably the best dragon in terms of set up ability for singles. Multiscale is hands down an excellent ability and makes setting up a stable Substitute extremely easy. You can get some DD's and then just Roost away any damage. And while I haven't used Salamence yet this gen, I'm sure its set up ability is similar as highlighted by Jibaku.

I completely forgot Dragonite since I've never used it in the Tower/Subway... I also have no Dream World access, and can't get Multiscale.

Originally Posted by Fat fluffyflyingpig

Looking forward to see what you guys come up with. I agree, even with two dedicated setup pokemon Drapion still had several really bad matchups.

What are these 'really bad matchups' you speak of?

[Peterko]

Pokémon Black Battle Subway Super Double Battle streak: 83


1. Golurk „TITAN“
Item: Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Fist
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 8 / 31 / 31
EV spread: 0 / 252 / 0 / 0 / 6 / 252
Lv.50: 164 / 193 / 100 / 57 / 101 / 107
Moves:
~ Shadow Punch
~ Earthquake
~ Protect
~ Hammer Arm

Initially, I wanted to use Golurk in the VGC because of its ability to survive almost all SE hits and OHKO a lot in return with an EV spread I spent quite some time working on (note that max atk/speed isn´t that spread, that´s rather not special). One of the coolest looking Pokémon and it´s really great, despite having so many weaknesses. Actually, the weaknesses draw lots of AI attacks to it and Protect gives its partner a free turn. Golurk itself hits very hard though. Sometimes I missed a Rock move, which lead to my loss. I would put Rock Slide over Hammer Arm and use and/or consider using a Muscle Band for an increase in power of neutral hits. I don´t think LO would be appropriate because Golurk survives many hits with just a few HP left even with a pumped up atk/spe.


2. Zapdos „STORM“
Item: Wide Lens
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Timid
IVs: 26 / 31 / 26 / 31 / 27 / 31
EV spread: 0 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 6 / 252
Lv.50: 163 / 99 / 103 / 177 / 109 / 167
Moves:
~ Thunderbolt
~ Heat Wave
~ Detect
~ Hidden Power Ice 70

I´ve used Zapdos a lot in the last two generations and now I almost forgot how amazing it is. Yes many things outspeed it nowadays, but the typing, coverage and Pressure + Detect still make it a viable monster in the Subway. 1% Heat Wave missing foe´s last Pokémon Ferrothorn made me smile.


3. Ferrothorn (F)
Item: Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
Nature: Sassy
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 3 / 31 / 0
EV spread: 252 / 0 / 6 / 0 / 252 / 0
Lv.50: 181 / 114 / 152 / 60 / 184 / 22
Moves:
~ Gyro Ball
~ Rest
~ Curse
~ Leech Seed

Wow, this is wonderful. There´s so many Subway Pokémon that can´t make it out alive past this, making it a great back-up Pokémon. Switching this into physical contact makes me happy, as the oponent loses 29,16% (7/24) of their HP. Now if it uses Leech Seed, which it will, that´s 41,66% (5/12) HP per turn and it´s not even using a damaging move yet lol. Great synergy with Golurk, superb under oponent´s TR. Curse for boosting defense, but it also strengthens Gyro Ball exponentially. The common set uses Substitute + Lefties, but Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet is too tempting for me and I wanted to use the combination as soon as the % were researched. No Lefties, so I gave it Rest. Now status doesn´t matter and it boosts Ferro´s stellar survivability even more. But stay away from Fire (and Fighting) or it´ll go down before you can blink.


4. Latios (M) „DRAGON“
Item: Choice Specs*
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EV spread: 6 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 0 / 252
Lv.50: 156 / 99 / 100 / 273* / 130 / 178
Moves:
~ Psyshock
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Thunderbolt
~ Grass Knot

Looks like it is on almost all of my doubles teams, but why not?

Team strategy: Other than an obvious and painful Ice weak (3/4 of my team), I was surprised at its variability to be able to handle almost all kinds of Subway teams. It has been a long time since I´ve did so much protecting and switching and it was quite fun. Having Protect / Detect on both leads is very useful in the Subway as you often get free turns to attack when the AI focus-fires one of your low health leads.

How I lost (surprisingly not against an Ice trainer, yeah once I lived through lead QC Glaceon, only because it missed both mine)...

#84 vs Battle Girl: Volcarona, Toxicroak, Magmortar, Bastiodon
1. Croak Sucker Punch, Zap Thunderbolt Volca, Volca Quiver Dance, Golurk Quake.
- foe´s Magmortar
2. Golurk Protect, Volca Heat Wave, Golurk protected, Zap Thunderbolt, Mortar Overheat, Golurk protected.
3. Zap Detect, Volca Hurricane, Golurk fainted, Mortar Overheat, Zap protected.
- my Latios
4. Volca Bug Buzz, Latios fainted, Zap Thunderbolt, Volca fainted, Mortar Overheat, Zap fainted.
- my Ferrothorn, foe´s Bastiodon
5. Mortar Focus Blast >50%, Bastio did something, Ferro Leech Seed Mortar, back to around 60%.
6. Mortar Focus Blast, CH, Ferro fainted.
0-2

Volcarona is a pain in the ass for most of my teams, because I often use a Steel type and Latios and both have big trouble handling Volca. This is the main reason why I´d use a Rock move on Golurk. This battle was over (or so I thought) as soon as Volca got a Quived Dance up and lived through Bolt+Quake+Bolt, but to my surprise (thanks to Pressure) I had a really good chance of winning it. Oh well, Focus Blast is ranked among the top worst moves in the game in my book alongside Stone Edge, Blizzard and Rock Slide. All I needed was one miss in 5 hits. No, instead it CHs on the second succesful hit...

[fluffyflyingpig]

Originally Posted by Fat DrDimentio

What are these 'really bad matchups' you speak of?

Meinshao/anything HJK, Specs Pory Hyperbeam, Headsmash Ramp/Archeops. There may have been a couple additions/subtraction and 'really bad' may be overstating it, but I seem to remember these being ugly matchups in particular.

I seem to lose a lot more in 1-49 than 49+ too Peterko. I blame lack of familiarity with the movesets. =( I share you pain on dozing off and missing trainer types. It would be really nice if they included the trainer name along with the remaining pokemon status display on the bottom screen when you are selecting attacks

[DrDimentio]

I lost a 70+ streak with my latest experimental team, which seemed unstoppable until this lead made me aware of a major problem:

332 | Yanmega | Rash | Cheri Berry | Air Slash | Bug Buzz | Detect | U-turn | SpA/SpD

Switch-out moves. Since this team was based around setting up against a crippled Pokemon, switching out obviously wastes all the stat drops... and in my case the incoming Pokemon was easily able to defeat me before I could attempt to set up. The Yanmega actually used Bug Buzz a few times on my Psychic-type Trick user, but I selected Flash as I thought Trick might be useless if it got Tricked on the way out with U-turn. Is there any reliable way to deal with this situation?

[Skore]

I've become intrigued with Trick Room double teams and have been experimenting with one thats gotten me to 47 but with tweaking I'm sure can take me further.

Slowbro@ Leftovers
Quiet - Regenerator (thinking of changing this to Own Tempo)
Scald
Protect
Slack Off
Trick Room

Bulky enough to always get a TR up for me. If I feel they're gonna double team me I protect to scout.

Breloom@Toxic Orb
Brave - Poison Heal
Substitute
Focus Punch
Spore
Seed Bomb

2 STABS, Sub and Spore, behind a sub and with Trick room running this thing can shut down anything leaving it free to be torn apart with a Focus Punch.

Chandelure@Expert Belt
Quiet - Flame Body (Toss up between this and Flash Fire, so far the hax has helped me more than FF would have)
Fire Blast
Shadow Ball
Protect
Imprison (This move is never used, thinking of either Psychic or a Hidden Power, likely Ice as I lack something for Dragons/Flyers)

Scizor@Bug Gem
Brave - Technician
Bug Bite
Bullet Punch
Protect
Roost

Suggestions?

As mentioned, I lack some coverage with these 4 pokes, mainly something for Dragons/Flying Types, though I've had decent luck with Breloom being able to Spore them as they tend to focus my Slowbro first. The lack of Protect on Breloom is something that has made me misplay a few times if he's KO'ed before a sub goes up.

[feral_brute]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

I've become intrigued with Trick Room double teams and have been experimenting with one thats gotten me to 47 but with tweaking I'm sure can take me further.

Slowbro@ Leftovers
Quiet - Regenerator (thinking of changing this to Own Tempo)
Scald
Protect
Slack Off
Trick Room

Bulky enough to always get a TR up for me. If I feel they're gonna double team me I protect to scout.

Breloom@Toxic Orb
Brave - Poison Heal
Substitute
Focus Punch
Spore
Seed Bomb

2 STABS, Sub and Spore, behind a sub and with Trick room running this thing can shut down anything leaving it free to be torn apart with a Focus Punch.

Chandelure@Expert Belt
Quiet - Flame Body (Toss up between this and Flash Fire, so far the hax has helped me more than FF would have)
Fire Blast
Shadow Ball
Protect
Imprison (This move is never used, thinking of either Psychic or a Hidden Power, likely Ice as I lack something for Dragons/Flyers)

Scizor@Bug Gem
Brave - Technician
Bug Bite
Bullet Punch
Protect
Roost

Suggestions?

As mentioned, I lack some coverage with these 4 pokes, mainly something for Dragons/Flying Types, though I've had decent luck with Breloom being able to Spore them as they tend to focus my Slowbro first. The lack of Protect on Breloom is something that has made me misplay a few times if he's KO'ed before a sub goes up.

Awesome! I'm also playing around with trick room in the Doubles Subway as well! I'd recommend maybe using a Porygon2 with eviolite to provide bolt/beam coverage as well as another bulky Trick Room user. I'm currently using:

Porygon2@eviolite
Ability: Trace
Nature: Bold (+def, -atk)
252HP/184Def/72SpD
-trick room
-thunderbolt
-ice beam
-recover

Escavalier@muscle band
Ability: Swarm
Nature: Adamant (but still super slow)
252HP/252Atk/4Def
-Megahorn
-Pursuit
-Iron head
-protect

Reuniclus@Life orb
Ability: Magic guard
Nature: Quiet
252HP/252SpAtk/4Def
-Trick room
-Psychic
-Focus Blast (hate the accuracy of this...)
-Shadow ball

Ferrothorn@leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Nature: Sassy
252HP/252SpDef/4Atk
-Curse
-Leech seed
-Gyro ball
-Substitute

Porygon is super bulky and always gets TR set up first turn but it definitely doesn't hit very hard neutrally although it is nice for all of the 4x ice weak dragons and Gyarados. I'm considering breeding a Quiet one and just doing max HP and Special attack to still be fairly bulky but capable of hitting just a little harder.

I am really loving Escavalier so far with his great bulk on both sides, blazing speed in trick room, and Swarm Megahorn just demolishes things. When it hits that is... Muscle band is being used for lack of a better option at the moment.

LO Reuniclus is fun and hits hard as well and is also a back up Trick Room user when P2 falls. It really sucks in situations that Focus Blast is needed to get the KO but I don't think HP fighting would suffice power wise even though it won't miss.

Ferrothorn is just kind of thrown into the team because I just bred him for singles and was wanting to test him out. I know the two quad fire weaknesses are going to be the death of me so I'm replacing Ferro as soon ad I fin a suitable replacement. Maybe a Quiet Heatran or Chandelure with Flash Fire. Volcarona gives this team problems and is the closest I've come to losing so far. I'm only at 42 wins with it right now but it's been fun to play with so far. Any tips/suggestions? Thanks!

[bluemon]

what do you guys think about volcarona and scrafty?
i wanna try them out and can you guys see anything super wrong or something?

volarona @ chesto beryy
252 hp 252 defense 4 speed bold
rest
quiver dance
fiery dance
bug buzz

scrafty @lum berry
jolly/adamant
moxie
4 hp 252 attack 252 speed
crunch
drain punch
ice punch/filler
dragon dance

[Zacchaeus]

Make sure you have Flame Body on Volcarona, that way you can burn them to lower their Attack which will make boosting even easier. Also you could consider Leftovers, Lum Berry, Substitute, or Morning Sun.

Jolly Scrafty with Dragon Dance Crunch Hi Jump Kick/Drain Punch and Ice Punch is the standard set so it's good

[bluemon]

yup :) i used it on PO, Was 3hkoed by azumarill, and azumarill was burned after the first hit :D

what should my third member be? i was thinking gliscor.

[Zacchaeus]

Well so far you have:

4x Rock weakness 2x resist
2x Water weakness 1x neutral
2x Flying weakness 2x weakness
2x Fighting weakness 2x resist

And a lot hits your team neutral like Ground and Dragon. So it seems Skarmory and Bronzong fit your team well but they aren't the best offensive Pokés. It's ultimately your call, but Gliscor would add another 2x Water weakness with no resist for it

[bluemon]

how about gyarados? physical dragons with intimidate, resists fighting immune to ground... but weak to rock... ehh..

gyarados or lucario?

or just a a general wall like porygon2?

EDIT: CB SCIZOR?

EDIT 2: i got it :) bulky DDer dragonite!

[cita1818]

Hey Smogon, been lurking for a while and decided to sign up to post a team I've had some moderate success with. Hoping to get a little insight on some things I can improve upon.

Here's the team:

Dragonite @Lum Berry
Adamant
Multiscale
252HP / 44 Atk / 212 Speed
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Fire Punch
~Outrage

Standard set but works incredibly well. Multiscale + Lum Berry guarantees a DD without being crippled. He's really a monster in the subway and can usually 3-0 teams.

Heatran @Choice Scarf
Modest
Flash Fire
252SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed
~Earth Power
~Flamethrower
~Dragon Pulse
~Hidden Power Ice

Another fairly straightforward set. I opted for scarf over air ballon or life orb as I was running up against the likes of Lucario/Infernape/Blaziken whom I can KO with earth power but were outspeeding me to KO with their fighting move of choice.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold
Pressure
252HP / 252Def / 4SpDef
~Scald
~Ice Beam
~Rest
~Calm Mind

Maximum Defense build here. Usually I can get 3-4 Calm Minds in before I rest. Sometimes I will go for the scald burn right away if I feel the opponent is a threat.

Strategy: Pretty simple strategy - I lead with Nite, if the matchup is favorable I stay in and Dance. If I'm statused or the opponent puts a significant dent in me through multiscale I will outrage right away. If I think I can Dance again I do it and roost away any moderate damage. If a bulky water leads I go straight to suicune who will boost to +6 and rest. At +6 not much can stop him. If Suicune can't get away with boosting and the next matchup is poor I go to Heatran when the matchup dictates.

Problems I'm running into: Getting greedy with boosts with Nite. I think I've learned my lesson here so this shouldn't be an issue anymore. It's safer to just outrage after 1 DD (usually enough to KO most things). The major problem has been Walrein as he's ended both of my 50+ win streaks, both times it has been to the Walrein set running Sheer Cold, Fissure, Rest, Sleep Talk. If Nite can't take him down before he hits one of the 1HKO moves, I can't do much of anything and its just a matter of time before he gets lucky and hits a 1HKO move on the other 2. Both of my losses have happened because of this. The most logical solution to fix this is running substitute somewhere and Suicune seems like the best fit (maybe instead of rest or ice beam?). I've also wrestled with the idea of replacing Heatran altogether as he hardly sees much action but he seems to cover the other two perfectly. Is it even worth changing anything as 1HKO moves are so luck based? Granted, I've been halted before the elite trainers in the subway but I've had no problems other than this Walrein.

I'm open to any constructive criticism and would love to hear any ideas you guys might have to improve the team.

Thanks in advance.

[VaporeonIce]

In general, it seems like your team would have a lot of trouble with Water-types; for the most part, Suicune can use them as set-up fodder, but Lanturn can take you out before you can set up, Walrein can use a OHKO move, and Water Absorb Lapras takes so little damage from Ice Beam that it can Thunderbolt until it crits, or Block/Perish Song you to death. Heatran's not going to be managing them particularly well, and if they survive Dragonite's assault (which some are bulky enough to do), they can mess you up with Ice Beam.

I'm having trouble coming up with an "ideal situation" to all the threatening Water/Ice types AND threatening Fighting-types (who can use their stupid coverage to KO Dragonite in some situations, and can mess up Suicune because they use physical attacks). One decent option is Reuniclus; it can't stop Walrein from Sheer Colding you to death (unless you use Sub/Recover/Psychic/HP Fighting, which kind of lacks power), but a Calm Mind/Recover/Psychic/HP Fighting @ Life Orb set can mess up most things that can break through Suicune (too bulky for Lanturn and Lapras and can probably KO before Perish Song takes you out, murders Fighting-types, generally good against Electrics). Having a reliable answer to most Water Absorb Pokemon frees Suicune up to get rid of Ice Beam and use Substitute, allowing it to stop Walrein and other OHKO users. Of course, someone else may have a better idea that Reuniclus, that's just the first thing that came to mind.

[cita1818]

Thanks - In general I've just been pressure stalling water types while setting up with Suicune. I did come up against a Lanturn but luckily Nite was previously set up and able to KO easily.

I actually considered Reuniclus in Heatran's spot when I was first coming up with the team so we are on the same page there. I prefer the calm mind variant myself and I think I'll try it out. You're right that would free me up to use sub on cune instead of ice beam.

[feral_brute]

Originally Posted by Fat cita1818

Thanks - In general I've just been pressure stalling water types while setting up with Suicune. I did come up against a Lanturn but luckily Nite was previously set up and able to KO easily.

I actually considered Reuniclus in Heatran's spot when I was first coming up with the team so we are on the same page there. I prefer the calm mind variant myself and I think I'll try it out. You're right that would free me up to use sub on cune instead of ice beam.

Just chiming in to second the motion of trying out substitute on Suicune. I lost a streak of 70 something to a crit on my last Poke CM Cune and immediately replaced ice beam with substitute and haven't looked back since. You can usually pressure stall the few water absorbers while still setting up and scald's burn chance is very helpful in adding passive damage to water resistant Pokes. Suicune seems to be on a lot of my Subway teams because he is so great at patching holes and also does well in the last slot as a fall back for most things. My team that I got to 86 wins with in singles was Sash,destiny bond Gengar, Lum Multi-scale Dragonite, and CM Cune. The lack of an electric resist was troublesome and Weavile just flat out murders 2/3 of the team especially with a sash.. I've experimented with DD Haxorus over 'Nite for more immediate power and the ability to outspeed base 130's after just one Dance but ultimately his frailty just couldn't cut it. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

(I'll do a proper post about my ~80ish streak with a picture, team members and spreads when I get off of work later. I know it's nothing astounding yet but it's always fun to try :)

[TM13IceBeam]

What do you guys think of this team? (doubles btw)

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash(note: arbitary because I really dunno what to give it)
Prankster
Timid
4 HP/252 SPD(might have some in defense)/252 SPE
Beat Up
U-Turn
Leech Seed
Taunt

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Polish
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Rock Slide

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Intimidate
Adamant
252 HP/252 ATK/4 DEF
Close Combat
Helping Hand
Rock Slide
Sucker Punch

Stoutland @ Silk Scarf
Intimidate
Adamant
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Retaliate
Helping Hand
Ice Fang
Wild Charge

The concept is simple: use Whimsicott to Beat Up Terrakion to gain +4 ATK, Terrakion then RP/SD's then smash through the opposition with Rock Slide.(yeah, everyone knows that though >.>) However, there's a problem, and that is that when I boost sometimes the enemies just double-team Terrakion and kill him off immediately, then I struggle with the other 3. Is there any way to improve my team? Thanks.

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

What do you guys think of this team? (doubles btw)

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash(note: arbitary because I really dunno what to give it)
Prankster
Timid
4 HP/252 SPD(might have some in defense)/252 SPE
Beat Up
U-Turn
Leech Seed
Taunt

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Polish
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Rock Slide

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Intimidate
Adamant
252 HP/252 ATK/4 DEF
Close Combat
Helping Hand
Rock Slide
Sucker Punch

Stoutland @ Silk Scarf
Intimidate
Adamant
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Retaliate
Helping Hand
Ice Fang
Wild Charge

The concept is simple: use Whimsicott to Beat Up Terrakion to gain +4 ATK, Terrakion then RP/SD's then smash through the opposition with Rock Slide.(yeah, everyone knows that though >.>) However, there's a problem, and that is that when I boost sometimes the enemies just double-team Terrakion and kill him off immediately, then I struggle with the other 3. Is there any way to improve my team? Thanks.

Rage Powder > Beat Up. Give Terrakion the time he needs to set up, and probably absorb moves that won't do much damage to your RP'er anyways. However, if you were to do this, you'd probably need to shuffle the back to properly support the leads. I'd say Amoonguss works as your Rage Powederer. After that, you could even bring in another Rage Powderer xD I dunno... multi-hit moves block the strategy hard (surf anyone?) but it's AN option. Perhaps you could run water absorb or something in back, or something like Bold Suicune that could switch in on surfs and/or Earthquakes (perhaps with some intimidate help also switching in), then proceed to set up and sweep.

Just ideas. Obviously untested.

[TM13IceBeam]

Hitmontop and Stoutland are more of filler actually, since 90% of the time they just spam Helping Hand. I might try a Follow Me Togekiss, but idk. :(

[atsync]

What do you guys think of this team? (doubles btw)

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash(note: arbitary because I really dunno what to give it)
Prankster
Timid
4 HP/252 SPD(might have some in defense)/252 SPE
Beat Up
U-Turn
Leech Seed
Taunt

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Rock Polish
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Rock Slide

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Intimidate
Adamant
252 HP/252 ATK/4 DEF
Close Combat
Helping Hand
Rock Slide
Sucker Punch

Stoutland @ Silk Scarf
Intimidate
Adamant
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Retaliate
Helping Hand
Ice Fang
Wild Charge

The concept is simple: use Whimsicott to Beat Up Terrakion to gain +4 ATK, Terrakion then RP/SD's then smash through the opposition with Rock Slide.(yeah, everyone knows that though >.>) However, there's a problem, and that is that when I boost sometimes the enemies just double-team Terrakion and kill him off immediately, then I struggle with the other 3. Is there any way to improve my team? Thanks.

It's a pretty good team, though I think the main weakness of the team is that it is too centred around Terrakion. It kinda lacks a backup plan. You've probably already realised that it won't always be possible to set up and sweep, and you need to be prepared for that. Having 2 helping handers is a bit overkill really and you'll probably want a backup sweeper.

I think you need your team members to cover Terrakion's weaknesses so that you can switch something in safely and remove the threat. I don't think Stoutland is particularly helpful because it shares the fighting weakness without covering any of Terrakion's other weaknesses. It's not particularly strong either. I think a good replacement would be Latios/Latias is you have access to one of those. Terrakion and Latios/Latias have great type synergy, and the Lati twins are really powerful themselves.

Those are just some thoughts I had. I hope they was helpful in some way. Good luck!

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat atsync

It's a pretty good team, though I think the main weakness of the team is that it is too centred around Terrakion. It kinda lacks a backup plan. You've probably already realised that it won't always be possible to set up and sweep, and you need to be prepared for that. Having 2 helping handers is a bit overkill really and you'll probably want a backup sweeper.

I think you need your team members to cover Terrakion's weaknesses so that you can switch something in safely and remove the threat. I don't think Stoutland is particularly helpful because it shares the fighting weakness without covering any of Terrakion's other weaknesses. It's not particularly strong either. I think a good replacement would be Latios/Latias is you have access to one of those. Terrakion and Latios/Latias have great type synergy, and the Lati twins are really powerful themselves.

Those are just some thoughts I had. I hope they was helpful in some way. Good luck!

Thanks! I don't have access to the Lati's(I only have 1 DS and a SS cart and a White one >.>), but is there an alternative to them? I'm probably digging Reuniclus or Espeon...

[atsync]

Thanks! I don't have access to the Lati's(I only have 1 DS and a SS cart and a White one >.>), but is there an alternative to them? I'm probably digging Reuniclus or Espeon...

That's too bad as the Latis would have been perfect. How about Bronzong? It resists ground (if it has levitate, which it should), psychic, grass and steel. Plus, Terrakion covers Bronzong's fire weakness.

I'm sure you'll come up with something.

EDIT: Actually, Air Balloon Metagross might be better as it's stronger overall. Not sure how I overlooked that for Bronzong....

[Jumpman16**]

internship final presentation finally out of the way so i can post now:



team (which is currently 301-0) may surprise you but probably won't after you "get it", it sure didn't take me long after i first used it:

@ Focus Sash ** ♣
http://www.pokecheck.org/?p=detail&uid=325256
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4HP/254Def/252SpD
Nature: Careful
~ Taunt
~ Charm
~ Worry Seed
~ Memento

No surprise here, Whimsicott is broken and I don't think I ever considered replacing it on my "cripple-things-for-one-teammate-to-sweep strategy" team.

@ Leftovers ** Saffron
http://www.pokecheck.org/?p=detail&uid=368654
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 204HP/254Atk/20Def/28SpD/4Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Dragon Claw
~ Dragon Dance
~ Substitute
~ Roost

The first time I saw Multiscale put to the test, my jaw literally dropped. Battle 71, lead Tornadus, Memento, lock into Dark Pulse, paralyze, Flash till Mesprit dies...then Dragon Dance. Dark Pulse hits...and takes me to 176/197. Then Lefties, for net damage of 4%. (4.56 but we floor everything in pokemon right?) Dragonite...I don't think there's many who have played RBY who don't have a soft spot in their heart for this Pokémon, at least from a "fuck yes finally at a hard-earned Lv55 my Dragonair evolved into a huge total badass flying dragon" perspective. I have always wished it were better, and somewhat got that wish in DP when it got Outrage, and Extremespeed to give it a niche over Garchomp, but Multiscale is the icing on the cake. And Dragonite can be the cake, because at 100% HP, not even Ice attacks do a damn thing to it. As was intended all along...I just kind of "agree" with Multiscale on Dragonite, it was really *supposed to* always be that much of a beast. Plus it's orange, which made me want to love it all the more...its color explains its nick, though EeveeTrainer suggested "Dragula" and I've since renamed it because lol at how fitting a name that is for Drapula's replacement. Dragula is actually a closer linguistic play on Dracula than is Drapula, and what better to name Dragula than *the* Dragon Pokémon?

Speaking of Drapion, the best part is that there's just like there's no CHing through Drapion's Battle Armor, there's no CHing through Dragonite's Multiscale. I already lamented at how long battles with Drapion took, and after one more bullshit loss I finally went ahead and decided to give Dragonite another shot. I'd used it with Lum on an earlier team that I can no longer remember and only remember (for sure, you always remember losses etc) it dying to a CH stone edge from Gliscor when sand was up, and its longevity impressed me. Drapion will always have its boss status in my heart, but as mentioned it has trouble killing things and is just "too" slow. Dragonite sure isn't though, and the set speaks for itself even if the EVs don't. If Garchomp isn't fast enough anymore and Drapion isn't powerful enough anymore, a DDer with bulk is a good place to start!

204HP for 192HP at Lv50, a very, very crucial Leftovers number (I shouldn't say "very, very"...I only re-EVed it after battle 301 lol). There are only two multiples of 16 that Dragonite's HP can be at Lv50, and 192 takes hits the best of it and 176. 192 is important so I only have to wait three turns to reactivate Multiscale after Subbing, which factors occasionally but obviously isn't a streak-breaker if 231 battles is enough of a sample size. Roost is what really sells Multiscale, along with ensuring a faster Roost: Ice and Rock attacks lose two whole levels of effectiveness when Roosting, which, when coupled with Memento and/or Roost, make them almost a non-factor, especially behind a Sub.

Just watch this if you can: 90-96665-10776

If you'd rather not, here's the tl;dw:

igarvey: lol
dragonite survives stab ch blizzards now
gj gamefreak

Anyway, I'm so glad Dragonite can "get away" with max attack and Adamant...maybe Drapion could have too, but it would have made for some even longer battles probably, especially given it doesn't have Roost. Only stuff I care about is Brightpowder, a Lapras got me once but that was mainly lame cause I wasn't looking and I Subbed the next turn instead of attacking again: if i had been BPed again IB wouldn't have killed (unless it CHed, which, you know, is exactly what happened in the battle above, so lol).

@ Choice Scarf ** We Jammin'
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252HP/4Def/252Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Trick
~ Thunderwave
~ Charm
~ Flash

No surprises here either, same strategy I posted about with Whimsicott/Drapion/Latias. But with a Dragon setup poke (and the AI's insistence upon using XS with that scarf Pinsir instead of the actually threatening Guillotine [though it'd have to go 4-for-4]), Mesprit is the better choice for the same reason it was in DPPT. Tricking things into Surf and Flamethrower and Waterfall is awesome. The only thing this cares about is Jolteon, which of course CHed with Thunder through Memento once because I'm not Timid, but whatever.

I'll probably post some more videos later but yeah, thanks for being awesome Dragonite...

[Conn]

Battle Subway Singles
Streak: 96
Team: Gengar, Garchomp, Suicune

Machamp @ Lum Berry
Timid 102/252/0/0/0/156
No Guard
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch

Scizor @ Custap Berry
Adamant 252/40/0/0/218/0
Technician
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Roost

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Adamant 244/252/4/0/4/6
Multiscale
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Extremespeed

Machamp's a beast. I only switch him out on Espeon and Skarmory. Otherwise he's big beastin' till he's is knocked out. Then I throw Dragonite in there and Outrage. Usually the match is over by the end of his Outrage. If it's not I switch in Scizor, and if Scizor dies it's back to Dragonite's Outrage.

If I do switch out it's usually to Scizor to set up.

Once I got passed about 30 streaks it honestly became easier. I was finally beaten out by a lead Espeon who's Psychic took out Machamp (I know I should have switched but I honestly wasn't paying that much attention). In comes Scizor; Swords Dance, Bug Bite, Espeon faints. Drapion comes out, so I figure I'll set up some more. I use Swords Dance and get Fire Fanged for ~50%hp. Switch to Dragonite; Outrage. Drapion faints. In comes Hippowdown. Outrage continues. I don't know what move Hippowdown used cause I wasn't looking. I thought I had this battle in the bag, but Dragonite faints. Hippowdown has about 20hp. Scizor comes in and I Bullet Punch. He's got pry 1hp. Uses Slack Off. Restores 50%. I Swords Dance, Slack off, Swords Dance, Earthquake with a crit ftw. I lose. :(

[Zacchaeus]

Damn Jumpman, nice.

I never would've guessed Dragonite but I've also found that Dragonite is one of the best sweepers in Battle Subway. However, while your team obviously did work wonders, is it really necessary for 2 cripple Pokés when Dragonite has such intense ability to keep itself alive? But I guess the 2 Pokés permit Dragonite to run such heavy Attack investment. The only other thing that seems weird to me about your team is Choice Scarf on the old discussion we've had about "Does the AI tend to switch out more when they have a Choice item?" which I definitely had problems with (which is where I had more success using Ring Target Thunder Wave)

Definite congratulations though