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[mostwanted]

Originally Posted by Fat FunLovin

Hey guys me again :P I was wondering if Jirachi would work well on a Uber Rain team?

If so whats a good build for her? I hate to ask but there isn't a finished Jirachi guide for Ubers :/

Jirachi is pretty under-rated in Ubers, you can try it out tho but I'd suggest running LO Palkia, Scarf Kyogre, DD Rayquaza, LO CM Mewtwo, SD Arceus/ Mix Kingdra in your rain team.

Hope it helped. Good Luck!

[Himanattsu]

What is the best Arceus type that best deals with Garchomp?

[Micromegas]

Originally Posted by Fat Himanattsu

What is the best Arceus type that best deals with Garchomp?

Normal Arceus can run a good wall set.

move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Return
move 3: Recover
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

This thing walls physical attackers like zekrom and groudon too. 444/372/277 defenses are really good. This is from an analysis by the way.

Hey, I have a question. What are some good partners for ghost arceus?

[Vratix]

Originally Posted by Fat Himanattsu

What is the best Arceus type that best deals with Garchomp?

I would suggest running Arceus-ghost over normal Arceus because then you are immune to the ubiquitous ExtremeSpeed on other Normal Arceus. Additionally, there isn't really a good reason to ever run Return over Extremespeed on an Arceus. The extra-oomph isn't worth the lack of +2 priority that also gets STAB.

Try this set as support/Wall
Arceus phenomenal speed can + WoW can replace the need for all of that pure defense investment.

Arceus
move 1: Judgment
move 2: Flamethrower
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
item: Spooky Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Originally Posted by Fat Micromegas

Normal Arceus can run a good wall set.

move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Return
move 3: Recover
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

This thing walls physical attackers like zekrom and groudon too. 444/372/277 defenses are really good. This is from an analysis by the way.

Hey, I have a question. What are some good partners for ghost arceus?

Your set will get destroyed by either Giratina (normal forme almost ALWAYS carries Toxic and it isn't unheard of on Origin forme either) and is out-sped by both Mewtwo's and Darkrai's and destroyed by both Aura Sphere and Focus Blast, respectively.

As to your question.
A good partner for ghost Arceus that is often overlooked is Terrakion. The Choice Scarf variant can OHKO all of Ghost Arceus' checks like Mewtwo, Blissey/Chansey, Darkrai, Reshiram etc.

[trickroom]

I would suggest running Arceus-ghost over normal Arceus because then you are immune to the ubiquitous ExtremeSpeed on other Normal Arceus. Additionally, there isn't really a good reason to ever run Return over Extremespeed on an Arceus. The extra-oomph isn't worth the lack of +2 priority that also gets STAB. Your set will get destroyed by either Giratina (normal forme almost ALWAYS carries Toxic and it isn't unheard of on Origin forme either) and is out-sped by both Mewtwo's and Darkrai's and destroyed by both Aura Sphere and Focus Blast, respectively.

Arceus-ghost is weak to Shadow Claw everything Extremekiller uses though while Normal Arceus isn't weak to anything save Brick Break. The reason to use Return over ExtremeSpeed is because it has way more PP, useful for a wall and hits stronger. Also Wall Arceus doesn't need that priority since it will outspeed standard Ho-Oh anyway.

Giratina normal forme doesn't carry Toxic usually. It uses Will-O-Wisp almost ALWAYS all the time for stopping physical sweepers easily, not Toxic. Toxic is used on Lugia more. Ghost Arceus is outsped by both Mewtwo and Darkrai anyway. Also Mewtwo can smack Ghost Arceus with Psystrike or sun-boosted Fire Blast. Darkrai can just pummel you with 100% accurate STAB Dark Pulse, that's worse than against Defensive Normal Arceus lol.

As to your question.
A good partner for ghost Arceus that is often overlooked is Terrakion. The Choice Scarf variant can OHKO all of Ghost Arceus' checks like Mewtwo, Blissey/Chansey, Darkrai, Reshiram etc.

I will like to see how Scarf Terrakion can OHKO Mewtwo outside of a critical hit. Chansey has a chance to survive Jolly Close Combat at full health.

[Vratix]

Originally Posted by Fat trickroom

Arceus-ghost is weak to Shadow Claw everything Extremekiller uses though while Normal Arceus isn't weak to anything save Brick Break. The reason to use Return over ExtremeSpeed is because it has way more PP, useful for a wall and hits stronger. Also Wall Arceus doesn't need that priority since it will outspeed standard Ho-Oh anyway.

Giratina normal forme doesn't carry Toxic usually. It uses Will-O-Wisp almost ALWAYS all the time for stopping physical sweepers easily, not Toxic. Toxic is used on Lugia more.

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 36.04% - 42.34%
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 72.07% - 84.68%
Survives even a +2 to hit back with Will-O-Wisp
Additionally, Arceus-Ghost has the utility of rapid spin Immunity in addition to a nice Fighting Immunity


I'm not going to say I know more about what every person runs on their Giratina. I will say that I see Toxic as often (and sometimes in conjunction with) Will-o-Wisp.

Originally Posted by Fat trickroom

Ghost Arceus is outsped by both Mewtwo and Darkrai anyway. Also Mewtwo can smack Ghost Arceus with Psystrike or sun-boosted Fire Blast. Darkrai can just pummel you with 100% accurate STAB Dark Pulse, that's worse than against Defensive Normal Arceus lol.

252 SpAtk Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Arceus-Ghost: 67.57% - 79.73%

252 SpAtk Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Arceus: 67.57% - 79.28%

Those look pretty damn similar to me. If Darkrai decides to be Modest (albeit more unlikely than Timid, but hey) then it, in fact does, not outpace the Arceus-Ghost set.

Originally Posted by Fat trickroom

I will like to see how Scarf Terrakion can OHKO Mewtwo outside of a critical hit. Chansey has a chance to survive Jolly Close Combat at full health.

For this: I apologize. I understimated Mewtwo's defenses.
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs 4 HP/0 Def Mewtwo: 58.76% - 69.49% and Stone Edge does slightly less. (55.08% - 64.69%)
barring crits, a 2HKO
more than likely less against Stall2
however Stall2 doesn't overly threaten ghost-arceus

Chansey however does not fair nearly so well:
To survive you would have to get a free switch with no hazards at essentially full health
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 4 HP/252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 88.32% - 104.21%
Gets OHKOd by adamant Terrakion (who is faster than Scarf Jolly Zekrom but not Scarf Jolly Garchomp)

Plus as a partner to Arceus-ghost Terrakion can switch in on the resisted Dark Pulse from Darkrai for a nice +1 Attack which changes the damage against mewtwo to 88.14% - 103.95% and 82.2% - 96.89% for X-Scissor and Stone Edge, respectively.
Again, not that a switch from Darkrai to Mewtwo is likely this is just good to know.

[trickroom]

+2 Adamant LO Extremekiller ES vs Standard Normal Wallceus = 41.2% - 48.6%, not even a 2HKO so you can easily survive and burn it

+2 Brick Break LO vs Wallceus 51.4% - 60.8%, easily survive burn it and survive the NEXT HIT.

Keep in mind Ghost Arceus doesn't always win the speed tie against Extremekiller.

The Giratina analysis doesn't put Toxic as the main option, and Toxic attracts Forretress and Ferrothorn to set up on Giratina even more.

Athough Focus Blast and Dark Pulse does pretty much the same damage, being weak to something that has 75% accuracy is still better than being weak to something 100% accurate and might even flinch you.

Darkrai always runs Timid since it cannot afford to lose the Speed against Arceus.

I just mentioned Chansey has a chance to survive Close Combat, not fairing well. Adamant Scarf Terrakion sucks because you can't even stop DD Rayquaza with it.

Terrakion can't really come in that well on Darkrai because Focus Blast OHKOes it. Scarf Heracross with Sleep Talk is the best check to Darkrai.

[ssbbm]

TBH, to deal with Darkrai it's probably best to just revenge it with stuff like ScarfOgre or Mewtwo cause all the dedicated counters aren't that good.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Originally Posted by Fat Himanattsu

What is the best Arceus type that best deals with Garchomp?

either grass or ground, just use ice beam or 2hko with judgment if you dont want ice beam. you can use other arceus but I think that these two have the most utility of all.

[Mr.lol]

TBH, to deal with Darkrai it's probably best to just revenge it with stuff like ScarfOgre or Mewtwo cause all the dedicated counters aren't that good.

Darkrai's often seen as an anti-lead but he can easily sweep mid-lategame with some wobba support to get rid of scarfers. So revenging it isnt always the best idea... Also tentacruel walls and cripples trick darkrai with some black sludge (I'm trying to bring up the old debate that we dismissed on the uber combo thread :D).

[TM13IceBeam]

The best way to deal with Darkrai is essentially the same as how you counter Loom in OU: sack someone to dreamland, then send in someone else on the NP.

The best counter for Darkrai though, is Heracross. Thanks to resisting Fighting+Dark, it can come in on Dark Void, then use Sleep Talk to deal major damage with Megahorn or CC.

[shrang]

If you have the rain up, send Manaphy into said Darkrai and watch Dark Void do absolutely nothing. You can then proceed to Calm Mind or Tail Glow up and kill the ridiculous emo of a Pokemon that Darkrai is. Max HP Manaphy survives even Life Orb boosted Dark Pulse.

[bluemon]

whats the worst arceus form? im guessing psychic.

[TM13IceBeam]

Psychic mostly because Mewtwo outclasses it. However, it functions as a bulky check to Mewtwo as well.

[Theorymon]

Ehhh Psychic Arceus is probably not the worst Arceus this gen, its bulk ensures that its not outclassed by Mewtwo, and Psyshock made it so much better than last gen. The worst Arceus this gen is probably Ice Arceus, because Ice is sadly such a horrible defensive typing. Its still sorta viable I guess but that SR weak and lack of resists hold it back despite having a nice stab.

[Mr.lol]

It's STAB does enable it to 2hko even the most specially defensive giratina I believe, it still has some competetive use i guess. I don't know i always found jirachi to be a better check to mewtwo since i could switch it in to a psystrike and scarfed flinch the thing to death.

I'd actually say flying arceus is the worst, it needs to run the horribad focus miss for coverage and without it dialga/ (insert steel type that is not ferrothorn) walls you. Being SR weak just makes it worse.

[Theorymon]

Actually, Flying Arceus was a pretty good mono CMer last gen due to being immune to Spikes and Tspikes, something that other Arceus formes would kill for! The REAL issue this gen is that Zekrom is a bitch to deal with. Its certainly one of the lesser Arceus though, probably about as good as Ice Arceus and Bug Arceus tbh.

This gen, there really aren't any Arceus that are outclassed by anything persay. Hell, last gen the only 2 Arceus that had issues with being outclassed were Dragon Arceus and Psychic Arceus. Thats changed because full evs have made Dragon Arceus FAR FAR better, while Psychic Arceus can use a Calm Mind + Psyshock to be a weaker, but far bulkier clone of Mewtwo.

Note that when I say that Arceus such as Ice, Flying, and Bug are the worst, that doesn't mean they are actually bad! They just don't fit on most teams compared to the other Arceus, but they do still have their niches!

[Mr_br_kill]

The worst is arceus is poison. Weak to ground and psychic, two decently used types. Has 3 "meh" resists (grass, fighting and bug) and 1 terrible one (poison). Poison STAB is only super effective against the uncommon non-ferrathorn grass types. But it's biggest problem is it has no purpose. Where other "bad" Arceus' have some niche, for exemple: bug arceus scores super effective hits against the decently common psychic and dark types, ice freezes dragons, flying avoids spikes and fire abuses sun, posiom arceus has no niche what's so ever. Using posion arceus is a waste of an arceus

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

I don't know if this was a troll but I will respond.

Poison Arceus can absorb Toxic Spikes, and that ability can be very important here and there, especially considering that there are only a very few viable poison types in uber tier. It can also run a CM set without a fear of getting poisoned, but doesnt care about fire or fighting attacks like steel arceus.

[TM13IceBeam]

Poison Arceus isn't that bad, the only reason why people run Tentacruel is because Tenta can spin and provide TSpikes support. Arceus is overall bulkier...

[bluemon]

can toxicroak be used in uber? maybe kyogre counter?

[Mr_br_kill]

@tm13icebeam he can't spin, doesn't have the rain dish ability, nor set up t spikes. But the thing is, Arceus poison is still Arceus, but just all the other forms outclass him.

@bluemon toxicroak wouldn't be the best choice in ubers. He's main selling point in ou is in the rain, he is a bulky booster, where in ubers, he isn't bulky enough. Also unlike ou, sun is rampent in uber. If you want a great kyorge counter, see gastrodon.

[bluemon]

i was mostly referring to toxicroak because he is poison.

there werent many uber viable poisons so i was wondering if toxicroak was worth it.

[Mr.lol]

Toxicroak probably is worth it. Although he may not be a bulky booster he is yet ANOTHER crogre wall, and he can set up a sub and annoy things to death with his move pool. Getting fighting STAB along with his ability to make less hp usable subs actually probably IS enough to be usable (along with access to swords dance and nasty plot but im not writing an analysis here).

Tentacruel and arceus-poison still are great poison types that absorb tspikes with the former being able to set up its own.

[Micromegas]

What is the best ubers / ou that works in ubers spiker? I want to make a spikes+ CM arceus team but I don't know what would work. Right now I'm thinking either Skarm, Ferro, or forretress. Thanks!