The Double Battle Metagame (GBU)

[Zog]

Yeah completely right, I used to use it on Mienshao to finish off pranksters. Especially genies that have only just survived a Terrakion rock slide.

[Tenodera]

Originally Posted by Fat cosmicexplorer

I've never really found Feint to be useful enough to be worth the trouble of using it at all. Which Pokemon can take advantage of Gliscor using Feint well? Is there any reason you chose Gliscor in particular?

I've been using Staraptor or Hydreigon as partners, which gives an even uglier Ice weakness but they are almost always capable of finishing the Protecter. Intimidate raptor sometimes scares away the other Pokemon (if it's physical), which means I'm in for less punishment if I mispredict the Protect...

I chose Gliscor because I got an Impish male with Feint off Dreamworld and wondered if I could make any use of the move!

[Havak]

I've been using a very random team thrown together consisting of: Machamp, Thundurus, Musharna, Scrafty, Metagross, and Abomasnow. I don't think it's very good but I was just using it for fun.

I've just had 7 people disconnect on me in a row (2 of them were the same person). Has anyone else noticed an increase in DCing? It's gotten ridiculous for me. I've maybe tried to play 20 games this season during August and now September and I have only had 3 of them finish properly. I have had 2 disconnections of my own fault, but that was due to my router cutting out (both games had only just started, however).

I hope they can do something about this in the future..

[cosmicexplorer]

Yeah, this thread discusses the amount of d/cing and its effects on battling.

I haven't noticed a difference in d/cing, but it's incredibly annoying when it does happen.

[~Golden Emp]

Originally Posted by Fat cosmicexplorer

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on this. How viable is Tailwind, and what strategies does it do well or poorly against? What Pokemon work well in Tailwind teams?

Originally Posted by Fat Ashenlock

Enormous Tailwind Paragraph

My "un-defeated" team has had a lot of success (posted streak in the D/C thread, i think), using a combination of Tailwind and Trick Room.
One of the most useful pokes in the team is Nidoking.

Nidoking @LO
MILD
[Sheer Force]
EV's: I don't remember the exact quantity, but it was full sp.atk, speed enough to outspeed +nature scarfed base 100's at max level with TW up, and the rest in atk.
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power
-Sucker Punch

If I can get Tailwind up and get Nidking in the field, it's GG. I haven't seen a single person that can counter this effectively, mainly because of the flexibility of this poke.

[cosmicexplorer]

Do you usually use it with a Follow Me user? Nidoking's defenses are rather substandard, and I can't see it lasting longer than two neutral hits, and its weaknesses to a multitude of common attack types makes it rather difficult to use effectively. Protect might work well over Sucker Punch because of this. While Nidoking is definitely extremely powerful, it's going to need some support to work well thanks to its lack of a spread attack.

I can see Togekiss with Tailwind and Follow Me being an excellent partner to Nidoking, with immunity to Earthquake and taking powerful attacks for Nidoking. In addition, the ubiquity of rain teams means it could be useful to use a +speed nature and 188 Speed EVs on Nidoking to reach 141 Speed, to outspeed Modest Kingdra with Tailwind up.

[DreamTalon]

I'm seeing way to many people making Double battle sets without including Protect. Here is a little history lesson for Single battlers.

ALWAYS USE PROTECT!

In Double Battles, the uses of Protect are almost always there, staring you in the face. Predicting a double attack on one of your pokemon, but you don't want to switch? Protect. Want to stall out a turn of Trick Room? Protect. Basically, if it isn't super fast, absolutely needs 4 moves, or has a Prankster Substitute, you need Protect. There are some exceptions, like Choiced pokemon, which usually are bad in Doubles, but most of the time, just put Protect as your first move and work from there on your pokemon's moves.

[Zog]

Protect is the move that separates the men from the boys.

Lol, I feel so manly for once.

Also while that's a pretty cool idea for a Nidoking set it just gets destroyed by spread moves. Any random scarfed water move, earthquake or similar will be doing heavy damage. And if the opponent outpredicts you with some protecting, it's probably going down. It needs to watch out for bulky psychic too since they'll probably OHKO.

Nice Pokémon though, I'll think of how to use him myself. I'm thinking timid with protect/ice beam/thunderbolt/earth power but am kind of sad about missing out on sucker punch there. Still, the resistance to Terrakion especially is reason enough to consider using him.

[~Golden Emp]

Originally Posted by Fat DreamTalon

I'm seeing way to many people making Double battle sets without including Protect. Here is a little history lesson for Single battlers.

ALWAYS USE PROTECT!

Dude, I've been playing Doubles since you were in diapers. I know what I'm doing. For the purposes of my team, it NEEDS 4 attacks. That's how I use and like to use it. If you disgress, don't use it.

I'm not pointing you with a gun to force you to use it my way, LOL.

[cosmicexplorer]

I can see Zapdos being an excellent partner to that Nidoking as well. It can set up Tailwind, it's immune to Earthquake, it can OHKO most Earthquake and Surf users, and it's incredibly bulky.

[Empyrea]

I'm very new to doubles and was wondering if it be viable to run a moveset of Imprison, Protect, and Trick Room on a faster Pokemon like Chandelure/Gardevoir in an attempt to shut down the use of said moves? Does Imprison only hit 1 target or does it hit their whole team? Been running into both moves in every game when I've been messing around in free mode trying to think of a team to run.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Empyrea

I'm very new to doubles and was wondering if it be viable to run a moveset of Imprison, Protect, and Trick Room on a faster Pokemon like Chandelure/Gardevoir in an attempt to shut down the use of said moves? Does Imprison only hit 1 target or does it hit their whole team? Been running into both moves in every game when I've been messing around in free mode trying to think of a team to run.

First off, I wouldn't consider base-80s to be "faster," just IMO.

But Imprison does affect "all foes" according to Bulbapedia, so it could be a viable strategy.

[Ashenlock]

Originally Posted by Fat Empyrea

I'm very new to doubles and was wondering if it be viable to run a moveset of Imprison, Protect, and Trick Room on a faster Pokemon like Chandelure/Gardevoir in an attempt to shut down the use of said moves? Does Imprison only hit 1 target or does it hit their whole team? Been running into both moves in every game when I've been messing around in free mode trying to think of a team to run.

Yes, there is some viability in it, but remember that the experienced TR players will know an Imprison user when they see it, and will just attack and KO it while it uses Imprison and use Trick only on turn 2. Imprison only works while the Pokemon who uses it is alive.

[cosmicexplorer]

I'd have to disagree; I believe such a set is extremely useful. Because most common Trick Room users are very defensive and in no way offensive at all (read: Cresselia, Musharna, and Dusclops), Imprison users can easily survive several turns, especially if they have Protect and/or a Focus Sash. In Chandelure's case, it has excellent bulk with 252 HP EVs (although a multitude of weaknesses as well), and can use Shadow Ball to shut down common Trick Room users, OHKOing or 2HKOing the vast majority of them. It's an excellent check to almost all Trick Room teams because of its ability to use Imprison and its powerful STAB Shadow Ball. If you want to use something that'll die less quickly (although its offenses are nowhere near as potent), Musharna with Imprison and Trick Room can stop Trick Room from being set up incredibly easily thanks to Trick Room's -7 priority and Musharna's incredible bulk. Trick Room teams struggle to damage Musharna significantly, and it can use Psychic and Helping Hand to completely shut down most Trick Room teams. I've used both to great effect, and when Trick Room can shut down most common strategies so easily, including weather, having a Pokemon you can pretty much just throw out on the field to stop Trick Room is incredibly useful.

[Ashenlock]

All true, but some players will run "veiled" Trick Room users like Chandelure and Jellicent, that can function in either setting, and that have significant offensive abilities. There isn't much difficulty in doing something or other to stop it if you are 99% sure that the opponent is running Trick Room (relatively speaking, at least), but there is if you're not even sure that you won't be wasting a turn using Taunt, Ghost Gem Shadow Ball, Imprison, etc. And it happens that many Pokemon that have that awkward Spe stat between Trick Room-level and sweeper-level also have great attacking stats. What Cresselia lacks in offense she makes up by having that ability to conceal her purpose.

It's not that I think it's bad, I just think it's not much more than an above-average means to stopping Trick Room. Two of your team's twenty-four moves are devoted solely to stopping Trick Room, and don't do too much more than that.

[cosmicexplorer]

Those "veiled" Trick Room teams (which I think is a terrible idea but it exists so w/e) are also known as "slow goodstuffs teams." The reason Trick Room is so potent is because it has such bulky setters such as Dusclops and company. Using Chandelure or Jellicent as a primary Trick Room user means the Trick Room team isn't able to stop most other strategies anywhere near as easily, and you don't need to send out the Imprison user. You cited Cresselia as an example of a Pokemon which can work both in and out of Trick Room, but in fact both of the Pokemon I mentioned can stop it quite easily even if it's not Trick Room; Chandelure with Shadow Ball, and Musharna with Imprison to restrict Cresselia to a single attack, since Musharna and Cresselia typically run the same set. If the Trick Room team can stop the Imprison user from having a huge effect, then you typically don't need to use the Imprison user anyway.

That's not mentioning that if you do happen to go to the other extreme and use Imprison and they do damage or KO your Imprison user, you still have the speed advantage, and they've been weakened, making it a lot easier to beat them anyway. Using one of these Imprison users puts most Trick Room teams into such a bind that it's very difficult for them to set up Trick Room, which severely limits their potency.

[breh]

chandelure actually doesn't 2HKO Cress (from my experiences); you can guess what happens when it uses light screen.

in any case, I've always felt tr to be a bit.. weak. It's too easy to counter, possibly because I run a relatively slow team.

TR imprison is very, very excessive, in any case. Running Trick room on random pokemon will suffice to check it (for example, the chandelure you mentioned is a fantastic user of it).

[soul_survivor]

IMO i believe its like putting colo in a sandstorm team, or excadrill on rain teams, to counter a certain playstyle. I believe there are more effective ways of beating tr, but if you can sacrifice a slot for a counter playstyle pokemon then you'll be more prepared. I know because i run colo, on alot of my goodstuff teams to counter rain.

[Zog]

Ehhh I'm getting really fed up of the GBU lately. The website keeps not displaying my results for some reason (it's apparently related to DCing but since I don't DC on people and I distinctly remember the guy in second doing it to me 3 times it can't be) so I'm not too happy with rated mode.

And I'm absolutely sick of free mode since about half the people you find on there aren't even worth the time battling (often not even all lv50s on their teams) and the hax is just... wow. I've been trying out that nidoking and to give some form of idea, he's been flinched with 100% frequency when possible and then there was one time which well... my opponent had only Haxorus and Seismitoad left in low health against my scarf Terrakion and Nidoking. I'm about to sacred sword/earth power for win when Seimitoad has its quick claw activate, muddy water critting with a necessary critical to OHKO Terrakion and then lowering the accuracy of Nidoking causing earth power to miss and this shitty unEVed Haxorus to finish Nidoking with outrage and then die to its own life orb like an idiot. Honestly, what the fuck Pokémon.

[cosmicexplorer]

You can always try sending the site an email or checking the documentation if your scores aren't being displayed; they do have a working support center here.

[Joel]

Here's a question, but bear with me for a moment, if you will......

Why don't more people use Eviolite Jigglypuff?

If your opponent isn't carrying on taunter on their team, Jigglypuff can fuck shit up...with a quickness. (works in triples, as well)

Here's the set I run...All utility moves...

Jigglypuff @ Eviolite
Nature: Calm
Ability: Friend Guard
EVs: 248 HP/170 Def/92 SpDef
Moveset:
-Substitute
-Protect
-Thunder Wave/Attract
-Perish Song

Basically, Jiggly spends it's time giving protection to itself, and it's teammates (via Friend Guard ability), waiting to sing it's Perish Song.

Jigglypuff's teammates can actually have a turn or two to set up for a sweep, since you are behind Jiggly's mini-dual screens.

Plus their's more added utility of opponents negating Jigglypuff not being worth targeting their attacks on.

Attract was given a slash just in case you want to use it on a Trick Room team.

[cosmicexplorer]

Jigglypuff's defenses are so atrocious that even with an Eviolite boost, it's easy to KO. Zapdos's Thunderbolt does 50%-59% damage to it, Rhyperior's Earthquake does 43.4%-51.6% to it, for example, and any of the very common Fighting-types easily take it out in one hit. In addition, Friend Guard only reduces damage done by 25%, making its effect almost unnoticeable. Perish Song is only useful against your opponent's final two Pokemon, and they can just kill you in the meantime. And of course any Taunt user makes it useless. To be honest, I just can't see how that set is worth using. What roles does it fill that anything else can't do much better? Cresselia, for example, is incredibly bulky, Thunder Wave, screens, Helping Hand, and Trick Room, and stops Fighting-types in their tracks.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Fat cosmicexplorer

Jigglypuff's defenses are so atrocious that even with an Eviolite boost, it's easy to KO. Zapdos's Thunderbolt does 50%-59% damage to it, Rhyperior's Earthquake does 43.4%-51.6% to it, for example, and any of the very common Fighting-types easily take it out in one hit. In addition, Friend Guard only reduces damage done by 25%, making its effect almost unnoticeable. Perish Song is only useful against your opponent's final two Pokemon, and they can just kill you in the meantime. And of course any Taunt user makes it useless. To be honest, I just can't see how that set is worth using. What roles does it fill that anything else can't do much better? Cresselia, for example, is incredibly bulky, Thunder Wave, screens, Helping Hand, and Trick Room, and stops Fighting-types in their tracks.

For example...

Battle Vid#: 36-19507-48162

Unfortunately, this is a triple battle instead of doubles.

Anyways, on turn one, You'll see my Amoongus use Rage Powder, with Jigglypuff in play.

Amoongus survives Feint from Scizor, Draco Meteor from Salamence, and Psychic from Cresselia. (my Amoongus is Relaxed, 198 HP/156 Def/156 SpDef. Bulky, but it shouldn't have come even close to surviving those three attacks.

This allowed me the only turn of set up necessary to control the entire battle. Jigglypuff itself made Scizor near useless for the rest of the battle, while the second turn (when Amoongus would have normally been KOd) crippled a Tyranitar switch in.

In other words, Jigglypuff's Friend Guard ability made it my teams MVP.

[Zyrac]

I would hardly say 25% damage reduction is "almost unnoticeable". Remember that screens are only 33% reduction in doubles. Also, Helping Hand on Jigglypuff is a Dream World move, so it's legal with Friend Guard, although you can't use it with egg moves (like Perish Song).

Overall, though, I have to admit it's pretty much outclassed. Even with 115 base HP and Eviolite, its defenses are barely passable. But hey, if you just really want to use Jigglypuff, I can understand that.

[cosmicexplorer]

I get that Friend Guard is a somewhat useful ability, but if you look at that Battle Video, a Thundurus, for example, could have HP Iced Salamence to KO it instead of having Amoonguss take all three attacks. You would have them a Pokemon down and Amoonguss would be at higher health than it would be with Jigglypuff. I'm obviously not saying that support Pokemon are useless, but when that Pokemon does nothing but abuse Friend Guard, an offensive partner or another support Pokemon without such situational use easily outclasses it.