Skarmory (Torment Spiker)

[scarletnova]

Skarmory

[SET]
name: Torment Spiker
move 1: Torment
move 2: Protect
move 3: Spikes
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Sturdy
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site

Core Reason
- Most common Pokemon usually don't carry more than 1 move that can deal more than 50% to Skarm

...

---

Ferrothorn
-Leech Seed?
Scizor
-Superpower
Gliscor
-Stone Edge
Dragonite
-Thunder, Fire Blast (rare especially both)
Tyranitar
-Stone Edge
Politoed
-Surf, Ice Beam
Heatran
-Fire Blast/Flamethower
Gengar
-Thunderbolt? (rare)
Rotom-W
-T-bolt, Hydro Pump
Excadrill
-Rock Slide
Conkeldurr
-Stone Edge(rare), Drain Punch
Haxorus
-Outrage

so Skarm can Torment them and set-up Spikes with ease, Protecting when you predict that they are going to use their coverage move.
- Guarantees 3 layers of Spikes up most of the time
- While Standard struggles against common switch-ins such as Heatran and Magnezone, with a well timed Torment, Skarmory is still able to set up against them.
- Sets-up in the face of counters of the standard set.

Secondary
- Can outstall most non-Steel Pokemon with T-Spike/Sandstorm support
- Messes up Choice users
- Torment allows certain Pokemons to revenge kill/set-up without fearing of eating an SE attack. (ie. DD-Gyara in the face of Gengar)
- Can come back as Death Fodder later in the game

[Woodchuck]

why am i always a downer of these sets qq

Not a fan of this. First of all, there isn't a gen 4 analysis. Secondly, Skarmory this gen isn't like Heatran; most Pokemon can hit it strong neutrally and 2HKO it anyways. It's also not forcing anything out but physical attackers and then it is promptly forced out by a special attacker, so the only reason you would run Torment is to help defeat those special attackers.
Sure, this helps to, say, Torment a Scarfed Rotom on the switch, then alternate Protect and Spikes. (Torment / Protect / Spikes / Roost, right?) It seems neat but it only really works on choiced switchins and is Taunt fodder. Deserves an OO mention though.

Also, Skarmory not being able to beat Excadrill, Terrakion, Haxorus and co is really kind of sad as that's the only reason to be running Skarmory in the first place.

Can you provide logs?

[scarletnova]

Honestly speaking, I do not have Gen V logs, only Gen IV ones. Torment is meant to be a anti-metagame move so ya...

List of moves from top-tier Pokemons that can actually do passable damage on Skarm:
[

...

---

Ferrothorn
-Leech Seed?
Scizor
-Superpower
Gliscor
-Stone Edge
Dragonite
-Thunder, Fire Blast (rare especially both)
Tyranitar
-Stone Edge
Politoed
-Surf, Ice Beam
Heatran
-Fire Blast/Flamethower
Gengar
-Thunderbolt? (rare)
Rotom-W
-T-bolt, Hydro Pump
Excadrill
-Rock Slide
Conkeldurr
-Stone Edge(rare), Drain Punch
Haxorus
-Outrage

The most commonly used Pokemons don't usually carry more than 1 move that can really hurt Skarm. And those that do kills other variants of Skarm anyway. And Torment Skarm can actually beat non-scarf Magnezone one-on-one through well prediction. well, guess it loses to Terrakion though, not like as if standard can take it that well anyway

[zdrup15]

You're supposed to test a set before posting it here...

So you have a Pokemon that can set up Spikes against choiced Pokemon but you no longer have a physical wall, you have a set-up bait instead. Every set-up sweeper can use you as fodder and then threaten your team. Excadrill is obviously the worst because they usually run rapid spin too.

Imo this set replaces Skarm's best quality (checking physical attackers) with something that isn't nearly as good. Let's see what QC says but next time please test it before posting.

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

You're supposed to test a set before posting it here...

So you have a Pokemon that can set up Spikes against choiced Pokemon but you no longer have a physical wall, you have a set-up bait instead. Every set-up sweeper can use you as fodder and then threaten your team. Excadrill is obviously the worst because they usually run rapid spin too.

Imo this set replaces Skarm's best quality (checking physical attackers) with something that isn't nearly as good. Let's see what QC says but next time please test it before posting.

FYI, I had been using this set in Gen 4 for as long as I remember (I know that set was definitely onsite back in Gen 4 until gen 5 came out, wonder why... )

I did not say anything about choiced pokemon, did you read my prev post about most pokemon not carrying more than 1 move that can hurt skarm? and what can exca do if he get to +6 but could not hurt you? +6 return is weaker than +2 rock slide and you can avoid rock slide with torment+protect. Also, losing WW, and Brave Bird does not mean you cannot check physical threats.

[Chillarmy]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

Also, losing WW, and Brave Bird does not mean you cannot check physical threats.

Name one common physical attacker that this Skarmory can beat

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat Chillarmy

Name one common physical attacker that this Skarmory can beat

anything that relies on <insert move that skarm resists> and another move for coverage(ie. Dragon/Ground, Rock/Ground, Fire/Dragon, Ice/Elec which is highly common). I already proven that top tier Pokemon all could not do a thing with Torment unless they happen to outpredict. Add in residual damage and ya...

See TormentTran, about the same, just with no sub and taunt but with Roost and Spikes instead. If the Torment set from last gen was still there, I would show you but it's gone. I'll try to provide logs if necessary.

First of all, hear from the QC members.

[zdrup15]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

FYI, I had been using this set in Gen 4 for as long as I remember (I know that set was definitely onsite back in Gen 4 until gen 5 came out, wonder why... )

I did not say anything about choiced pokemon, did you read my prev post about most pokemon not carrying more than 1 move that can hurt skarm? and what can exca do if he get to +6 but could not hurt you? +6 return is weaker than +2 rock slide and you can avoid rock slide with torment+protect. Also, losing WW, and Brave Bird does not mean you cannot check physical threats.

You know, I used Exeggutor in RBY 1 OU and it was pretty good so should I post a BW OU analysis for it? Of course not. You should test the Pokemon on the metagame you're writing an analysis for, obviously.

Also, when your opp realizes you don't have ww, he will set up to +6 and then attack you. Why would he attack you before he was at +6 when you literally can't touch it?

Also, how can skarm stall physical attackers? Gyarados, Salamence, Lucario, Scrafty, Terrakion, Haxorus, Mienshao, Infernape, Conkeldurr, Toxickroak, and Virizion are only a few examples of OU attackers that set up to +6 and destroy you! And this set can't touch them...

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

You know, I used Exeggutor in RBY 1 OU and it was pretty good so should I post a BW OU analysis for it? Of course not. You should test the Pokemon on the metagame you're writing an analysis for, obviously.

Also, when your opp realizes you don't have ww, he will set up to +6 and then attack you. Why would he attack you before he was at +6 when you literally can't touch it?

Also, how can skarm stall dd mence? He'll set up to +6 and destroy you...

The metagame did not change much from DP to BW OU, and tbh, most of Skarm's counters became more rarely used in the new metagame. The only things that DP OU did not have are literally just Ferrothorn, Excadril, Haxorus, Hydreigon and Jellicent.

First of all, he takes 12 turns to get to +6 since he is forced to switch moves every other turn. If you are not using this to set-up spikes, obviously you can put WW over Spikes

[6A9 Ace Matador]

this is a good set i remember seeing worms use it in dp and it was fine, must be even better in gen iv metagame though i'd probably re consider the evs!

[zdrup15]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

The metagame did not change much from DP to BW OU, and tbh, most of Skarm's counters became more rarely used in the new metagame. The only things that DP OU did not have are literally just Ferrothorn, Excadril, Haxorus, Hydreigon and Jellicent.

First of all, he takes 12 turns to get to +6 since he is forced to switch moves every other turn. If you are not using this to set-up spikes, obviously you can put WW over Spikes

I'm sorry what?! The metagame didn't change that much? Did you even play DPP OU? How many rain and sun teams have you seen? And what about the SS abusers that can all threaten you?

I love how you forgot to mention Terrakion, Landorus, Thundurus, Conkeldurr, and Many others as new Pokemon...

And you said you'd Torment the coverage move, not the boosting move. If you Torment the boosting move, they'll be able to attack you every other turn with the coverage move you said they carry to deal with Skarmory. Not to mention they can still boost to +6, it just takes a bit longer.

And finally, if I'm not using this to set up Spikes, why would I even use it?

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

I'm sorry what?! The metagame didn't change that much? Did you even play DPP OU? How many rain and sun teams have you seen? And what about the SS abusers that can all threaten you?

I love how you forgot to mention Terrakion, Landorus, Thundurus, Conkeldurr, and Many others as new Pokemon...

And you said you'd Torment the coverage move, not the boosting move. If you Torment the boosting move, they'll be able to attack you every other turn with the coverage move you said they carry to deal with Skarmory. Not to mention they can still boost to +6, it just takes a bit longer.

And finally, if I'm not using this to set up Spikes, why would I even use it?

What I want you to know it that those certain Pokemons that carry more only 1 move to severely hurt Skarm still carry 1 move, they do not suddenly carry 2 moves to hurt Skarm because weather teams became more common. See for yourself how many of the most common Pokemons generally carry more than 1 move that can deal more than 50% to Skarm? Bar certain special attackers, since they destroy standard Skarm either way.

Torment affects the entire movepool in case you din't know.

...

---

"Prevents the target from selecting a move that it used the previous turn. If the target is forced to select the same move twice in a row due to Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Disable, Encore, Taunt, or not having any other moves with PP remaining, the target uses Struggle every other turn. Effect is lost when the target switches out."

And Protect is there for a reason, to Protect the coverage move so next turn you take minimal damage from the move that Skarm resists so that you can set-up Spikes.

And if you are going to use Skarm for Spikes, why the hell would you want to stop physical attackers. Do you ever see Deoxys-S doing anything else when they set-up Spikes?

[zdrup15]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

What I want you to know it that those certain Pokemons that carry more only 1 move to severely hurt Skarm still carry 1 move, they do not suddenly carry 2 moves to hurt Skarm because weather teams became more common. See for yourself how many of the most common Pokemons generally carry more than 1 move that can deal more than 50% to Skarm? Bar certain special attackers, since they destroy standard Skarm either way.

Torment affects the entire movepool in case you din't know.

...

---

"Prevents the target from selecting a move that it used the previous turn. If the target is forced to select the same move twice in a row due to Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Disable, Encore, Taunt, or not having any other moves with PP remaining, the target uses Struggle every other turn. Effect is lost when the target switches out."

And Protect is there for a reason, to Protect the coverage move so next turn you take minimal damage from the move that Skarm resists so that you can set-up Spikes.

And if you are going to use Skarm for Spikes, why the hell would you want to stop physical attackers. Do you ever see Deoxys-S doing anything else when they set-up Spikes?

They don't nee to attack immediatly, they can set up first and then use one attack after you Protected and KO you. You're assuming your opp is idiot if you think they'll only use the effective move when you're Protecting.

Skarmory's standard set uses Spikes and attempts to stop physical attackers. Since it's its most used set, I guess that answers your "who the hell would use it?"

Have you seriously compared Skarmory with Deoxys-S? Because they're a little different...

I'll stop for now. Use the QC tag and include a "Why this set should be on-site" section.

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

They don't nee to attack immediatly, they can set up first and then use one attack after you Protected and KO you. You're assuming your opp is idiot if you think they'll only use the effective move when you're Protecting.

Skarmory's standard set uses Spikes and attempts to stop physical attackers. Since it's its most used set, I guess that answers your "who the hell would use it?"

Have you seriously compared Skarmory with Deoxys-S? Because they're a little different...

I'll stop for now. Use the QC tag.

According to your theory of setting-up, Torment Tran is useless as well, but it is on site you are assuming the user is a idiot is you think they'll use protect on alternate turns without thinking about the possibility of the opponent not using the effective move to get around torment

[zdrup15]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

According to your theory of setting-up, Torment Tran is useless as well, but it is on site you are assuming the user is a idiot is you think they'll use protect on alternate turns without thinking about the possibility of the opponent not using the effective move to get around torment

TormentTran has Taunt, which means it isn't set-up fodder.

[scarletnova]

we are digressing, this is a spiker, and most spikers are set-up fodders, we are supposed to discuss its effectiveness as a spiker
and note taunt is a secondary slash

[November Blue]

I love how threads like this get twice as much attention as the more legitimate ones.

Scarletnova, I'm going to be blunt; The set is awful. Not only are you ignoring Skarmory's best options (Taunt, Whirlwind and Brave Bird,) had you tested the set you'd realize that it doesn't do anything. It's a useless gimmick. Skarm's physical bulk and typing give it plenty of opportunities to spike, and it doesn't need torment to wall physical attackers. Without Taunt, it becomes a free invitation for your opponent to set up on you, or force you out with another Taunt.

Once you have set up your Spikes, Skarm becomes deadweight. It can't hurt anything, it can't Taunt or phaze... Taking hits alone is not enough, you need to be able to hit back, which this set can't do. The only thing it could do is Toxicstall, but you'd have to use Toxic Spikes or a status platform.

[Oglemi*]

scarletnova please put this in the correct format and provide more reasoning in the OP behind why you feel this set should be put onsite. If I see no improvement by tomorrow this'll just get locked.

[Chillarmy]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

anything that relies on <insert move that skarm resists> and another move for coverage(ie. Dragon/Ground, Rock/Ground, Fire/Dragon, Ice/Elec which is highly common). I already proven that top tier Pokemon all could not do a thing with Torment unless they happen to outpredict. Add in residual damage and ya...

That's not answering my question. Haxorus, Landorus, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Salamence, Lati@s, Starmie and Porygon2 fall into the categories you mentioned; however, all of them have a method of mercilessly beating this Skarmory into the ground, as well as its team. Skarmory can't touch any of them. In all honesty, I don't see why anything, especially dragons, should really care that Skarm gets up three layers of spikes - you just let a dangerous Pokemon become nigh unstoppable just because you were desperate... for spikes. This set will most likely be used on a variant of stall, anyway (balanced / offensive teams aren't taking on a +2/+2 dragon anytime soon). Why rush to get spikes down on the opposite side of the field? Skarmory has the defensive capability to switch in several times, so there shouldn't be any problem setting up spikes as the game progresses.

Also, TormentTran was good last gen because of his typing ability and Lava Plume, meaning that he could actually ward off Nite/Gyara with the threat of a burn. Without Whirlwind or even Brave Bird, Skarmory isn't much different than Deoxys-D as a spiker, which is really bad considering how Skarmory is (should be) played.

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat Chillarmy

That's not answering my question. Haxorus, Landorus, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Salamence, Lati@s, Starmie and Porygon2 fall into the categories you mentioned; however, all of them have a method of mercilessly beating this Skarmory into the ground, as well as its team. Skarmory can't touch any of them. In all honesty, I don't see why anything, especially dragons, should really care that Skarm gets up three layers of spikes - you just let a dangerous Pokemon become nigh unstoppable just because you were desperate... for spikes. This set will most likely be used on a variant of stall, anyway (balanced / offensive teams aren't taking on a +2/+2 dragon anytime soon). Why rush to get spikes down on the opposite side of the field? Skarmory has the defensive capability to switch in several times, so there shouldn't be any problem setting up spikes as the game progresses.

Also, TormentTran was good last gen because of his typing and Lava Plume, meaning that he could actually ward off Nite/Gyara with the threat of a burn. Without Whirlwind or even Brave Bird, Skarmory isn't much different than Deoxys-D as a spiker, which is really bad considering how Skarmory is (should be) played.

I won't exactly call them (Haxorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Latias) unstoppable if given a chance to set up since they are still forced to switch moves each turn. And seriously, how much do you think they will get in 3 turns? +2, +2? Granted Mence and Nite will be able to sweep with that, but they would take like what, 12 turns (Skarm essentially has 2 turns to Roost so unless OHKO) to be able to KO Skarm, which by then, they would fall to Sandstorm. Mono-attackers like Latias has a even lower chance of muscling though Skarm due to Torment+Protect.

Torment Tran has a Gen V analysis despite Special Stat-uppers (Volcarona, Latias, Virizion, etc.) which are equally as threatening so why not?

[Chillarmy]

Er, sorry for the late reply

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

I won't exactly call them (Haxorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Latias) unstoppable if given a chance to set up since they are still forced to switch moves each turn.

"Nigh unstoppable"

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

And seriously, how much do you think they will get in 3 turns? +2, +2? Granted Mence and Nite will be able to sweep with that, but they would take like what, 12 turns (Skarm essentially has 2 turns to Roost so unless OHKO) to be able to KO Skarm, which by then, they would fall to Sandstorm.

That makes no sense. What's stopping them from boosting any further if Skarmory insists on staying in? Moreover, how does Torment really help Skarmory in that situation? It prevents said Pokemon from using their STAB for a turn, granted, but there's nothing preventing them from boosting to the point where even Skarmory won't be able to take a hit.

To make this a bit more clear: Without an offensive option or Whirlwind, Skarmory will have to switch out and risk one of its teammates if something with a stat boosting move switches in.

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

Mono-attackers like Latias has a even lower chance of muscling though Skarm due to Torment+Protect.

Latias has Roar .-.

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

Torment Tran has a Gen V analysis despite Special Stat-uppers (Volcarona, Latias, Virizion, etc.) which are equally as threatening so why not?

Because Heatran can stall them to no end and actually ward off physical attackers

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat Chillarmy

Er, sorry for the late reply

"Nigh unstoppable"

That makes no sense. What's stopping them from boosting any further if Skarmory insists on staying in? Moreover, how does Torment really help Skarmory in that situation? It prevents said Pokemon from using their STAB for a turn, granted, but there's nothing preventing them from boosting to the point where even Skarmory won't be able to take a hit.

To make this a bit more clear: Without an offensive option or Whirlwind, Skarmory will have to switch out and risk one of its teammates if something with a stat boosting move switches in.

Latias has Roar .-.

Because Heatran can stall them to no end and actually ward off physical attackers

You will need a +6 Outrage to OHKO Skarm, OHKo is required since it can always Roost over 2 turns due to Torment. With residual damage (LO, Sand, T-spikes) it will die before it reaches +6, which is 12 turns.

I said such as so ya...

Skarm has reliable recovery, and Volcarona has HP Rock or hell even Bug Buzz (no reliable recovery on Heatran hurts), Latias can with Dragon Pulse, and Virikion KO easily with Focus Blast

[Chillarmy]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

You will need a +6 Outrage to OHKO Skarm, OHKo is required since it can always Roost over 2 turns due to Torment. With residual damage (LO, Sand, T-spikes) it will die before it reaches +6, which is 12 turns.

You make it seem as if ever

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

I said such as so ya...

How many mono-attacking boosters are used in OU? Ok then

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

Skarm has reliable recovery, and Volcarona has HP Rock or hell even Bug Buzz (no reliable recovery on Heatran hurts), Latias can with Dragon Pulse, and Virikion KO easily with Focus Blast

I don't want to call you retarded, so I'll just settle for dumb.

Between Protect, entry hazards and Lava Plume, Heatran has no problem wearing down Virizion or Volcarona, even tanking a Focus Blast or HP Ground if truly needed; Latias, while it can set up on Heatran, is just far too weak to break stall teams on its own. Skarmory will have trouble getting past the heavy abundance of Fighting-types in OU, Haxorus (it's definitely a good idea to let one get more than three Dragon Dances) and Dragonite. In addition to those Pokemon, Skarmory now loses to Latias, Breloom, Excadrill, Quagsire, Scizor - essentially most of what it's capable of checking with Brave Bird and / or Whirlwind.

Is there really any logical reason behind exchanging a great check to most of the physical threats in this metagame - and to stall - for something that just sits in one place and does nothing?

EDIT:

- Can come back as Death Fodder later in the game

If a set loses utility later in the game, it's not very good. That statement hurts TormentSkarm far more than it helps.

[scarletnova]

Originally Posted by Fat Chillarmy

You make it seem as if ever

How many mono-attacking boosters are used in OU? Ok then

I don't want to call you retarded, so I'll just settle for dumb.

Between Protect, entry hazards and Lava Plume, Heatran has no problem wearing down Virizion or Volcarona, even tanking a Focus Blast or HP Ground if truly needed; Latias, while it can set up on Heatran, is just far too weak to break stall teams on its own. Skarmory will have trouble getting past the heavy abundance of Fighting-types in OU, Haxorus (it's definitely a good idea to let one get more than three Dragon Dances) and Dragonite. In addition to those Pokemon, Skarmory now loses to Latias, Breloom, Excadrill, Quagsire, Scizor - essentially most of what it's capable of checking with Brave Bird and / or Whirlwind.

Is there really any logical reason behind exchanging a great check to most of the physical threats in this metagame - and to stall - for something that just sits in one place and does nothing?

EDIT:

If a set loses utility later in the game, it's not very good. That statement hurts TormentSkarm far more than it helps.

What makes you think Heatran could do that? 252 Timid Virizion Focus Blast does 66.1% - 78.6% without a boost, and Heatran only manages 53.9% - 63.8% on the same Virizion, and 35.9% - 43.3% on a +1. Not to mention Volcarona which is not weak to fire, taking only 24.6% - 29.2% at +1, I question how Heatran can outstall them.

Haxorus would need to get to +5 if he really want to defeat a TormentSkarm spamming Roost, add in T-spikes/SS and I'd like to see that happen.

I don't see what you mean by now loses to. The only way I see Standard Skarm beating Breloom is letting something take the Spore and them coming in. Quagsire and Latias are not problematic since they do not boost their speed.

Losing utility late on in the game, isn't that what Spikers do? Name a dedicated Spiker that carry moves for other purposes. Seriously, there are even suicide Spikers...

And I repeat, if you want to use this to stall, you can always put WW where Spikes is

[SpoeMeister]

Originally Posted by Fat scarletnova

What makes you think Heatran could do that? 252 Timid Virizion Focus Blast does 66.1% - 78.6% without a boost, and Heatran only manages 53.9% - 63.8% on the same Virizion, and 35.9% - 43.3% on a +1. Not to mention Volcarona which is not weak to fire, taking only 24.6% - 29.2% at +1, I question how Heatran can outstall them.

Haxorus would need to get to +5 if he really want to defeat a TormentSkarm spamming Roost, add in T-spikes/SS and I'd like to see that happen.

I don't see what you mean by now loses to. The only way I see Standard Skarm beating Breloom is letting something take the Spore and them coming in. Quagsire and Latias are not problematic since they do not boost their speed.

Losing utility late on in the game, isn't that what Spikers do? Name a dedicated Spiker that carry moves for other purposes. Seriously, there are even suicide Spikers...

And I repeat, if you want to use this to stall, you can always put WW where Spikes is

Ferrothorn: has thunder wave/leech seed/ power whip and gyro ball to still be helpful in other ways:

Forretress: has rapid spin and toxic spikes for extra spiking

Smeargle:spore disables set-uppers. Smeargle is RU for a reason btw.

Deoxys: Taunt will cripple other stall teams. Psycho Boost and superpower can still KO major threats like conkeldurr and tyranitar

Is there anyone I forgot?

The point is: these spikers still have other uses... TormentSkarm has nothing else but lay down spikes and die...