(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

[BKC]

http://smogon.com/calc/

When I enter in Pursuit as the move, it shows up as 80 base power; I entered in Crunch right after running the calc and got the same amount of damage.

for example
Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. lead Azelf: 202.1% - 238.4%
Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. lead Azelf: 202.1% - 238.4%

[Zystral]

That's not something that belongs in this thread. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, but if you want to calculate a Pursuit where they aren't switching out, then just type in "40 Dark Physical".

[Banedon]

Sceptile's D/P analysis page, OU Life Orb set: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/sceptile

Once something is sacrificed to Sceptile, most notably after a Leaf Storm, Scizor can easily come in and threaten him with a Bullet Punch or Pursuit. Magnezone is a good partner because it easily removes a Scizor locked into any of the moves that Sceptile will lure. With Scizor gone thanks to Magnezone and bulky Water-types gone due to Sceptile, Dragonite can exploit these holes, as many teams rely on bulk or Scizor to stop him.

If Sceptile has already used Leaf Storm (-2 SpA), why wouldn't Scizor use U-turn? I suppose HP Fire is 4x effective, but then again at -2 SpA it doesn't OHKO 248/0 Scizor - does 60.6% - 72.3%, no OHKO even with SR - so although it's a gamble, it's not a huge risk either.

[zdrup15]

Originally Posted by Fat Banedon

Sceptile's D/P analysis page, OU Life Orb set: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/sceptile



If Sceptile has already used Leaf Storm (-2 SpA), why wouldn't Scizor use U-turn? I suppose HP Fire is 4x effective, but then again at -2 SpA it doesn't OHKO 248/0 Scizor - does 60.6% - 72.3%, no OHKO even with SR - so although it's a gamble, it's not a huge risk either.

Considering Stealth Rock is on the field and Scizor has never switched in, it will take Stealth Rock damage, a Life Storm (because if Sceptile uses Life Storm against another mon it will probably switch out - it would only stay in on Scizor because of the 4x super effective Hidden Power), and a Hidden Power Fire.

Do you really think it's not a huge risk?

[Banedon]

The quote clearly implies a revenge kill situation ("once something is sacrificed to Sceptile ..."), so Scizor does not take Leaf Storm damage.

[TelamonianAjax]

I remember in one of the Smogcasts, that set was a Hype Corner set—I think Phillip's. The idea was that Scizor would come in on the Leaf Storm to 4x resist it—does 24.5% minimum. Then with Scizor down to 75% max, 62.5% with SR, HP Fire is just about a guaranteed OHKO. They were saying that Scizor is basically put in a position where it either has to use Bullet Punch or get wrecked by HP Fire.

I agree that the quote implies a revenge kill, which is a different case. The set is designed to take out Scizor when it switches into Leaf Storm, not when it comes in after a Leaf Storm kill. But that's not what the paragraph is saying. I agree that the most likely move for Scizor would be U-turn, unless the opponent doesn't know that -2 HP Fire doesn't KO without prior damage.

[Zystral]

I'm rewording this to be clearer about how Scizor may not U-turn as it doesn't fear Sceptile after -2.

[Hawkstar]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/illumise

Something I noticed while proofreading this article. For the Specs set, it recommends Baton Pass to scout for counters to the set. However, illumise learns U-Turn, as it says in the very set that I am referencing. U-Turn isn't even slashed in. Wouldn't U-turn be superior to a dry Baton Pass in every way? They have the same priority and both allow Illumise to switch out after using it, but U-Turn actually deals damage, and while it would not do a lot, every little bit counts.

I suggest the replacing of Baton Pass with U-Turn on that set, since without boosts to pass, Baton Pass has no reason to be used when U-Turn is present.

[zdrup15]

I agree Hawkstar and I replaced every mention of Baton Pass for U-turn on the Special Attacker set.

Thanks!

I think a mod can delete all of the posts because they're all solved.

[Fatecrashers]

PO actually lists all the best spreads for a certain Hidden Power so it's your own responsibility to make sure you're not using the default one that reduces Speed, just like how it's your own responsibility to change Dragonite's ability from the default Inner Focus to Multiscale. It's a matter of awareness and common sense.

[Fatecrashers]

This is an absurd argument and going around modifying analyses to tell people to use 31 Speed IVs is just a fool's errand. Be aware I'm going to delete all discussion on this topic in this thread in about 6 hours.

[Surgo]

The Advance sticky leads to this thread, so I'm going to put this here.

Clefable's first set is the belly drum set, which is said to be "not too good". Well, you've got the wrong set!

Belly Drum Clefable makes an amazing sweeper in UU, but I can't imagine using the set as listed. For a long time I used this, which works much better as a sweeper after you scouted out their team:

Clefable @Salac Berry
Substitute
Belly Drum
Return
Meteor Mash

252 Attack, 252 Speed (you might be able to calculate some better speed EVs). This is a vastly different set than the Belly Drum listed. First use substitute, or take a hit while you're switching in. Belly drum. Get your salac boost. Sweep.

I ran this for a very long time in UU, and it was the best end sweeper I've ever found -- countered only by Aggron. I can't imagine being able to actually do anything good with the listed Belly Drum set.

[Oglemi*]

aight so I've cleaned out the thread again except for the above post because I've never played ADV UU nor do I know anyone who can verify the above. I wholly believe that that change is good, I have no idea how I would write it in though. Surgo if you could provide the write up or post in the RBY/GSC/ADV section of C&C with the update that'd be awesome.

[alexwolf]

On the OU CB analysis, what is the use of the 156 HP evs? Is there any significant hit that Ttar survives from physical attackers?
Because i think that they should all be put to SpD, as with the 1,5 Sandstorm boost, Ttar special bulk rises quite a bit, allowing it to take on the special attackers that it is supposed to Pursuit, like Starmie, Latios, Celebi, etc easier.

[sirndpt]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

On the OU CB analysis, what is the use of the 156 HP evs? Is there any significant hit that Ttar survives from physical attackers?
Because i think that they should all be put to SpD, as with the 1,5 Sandstorm boost, Ttar special bulk rises quite a bit, allowing it to take on the special attackers that it is supposed to Pursuit, like Starmie, Latios, Celebi, etc easier.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, but just wanted to point out that according to the defensive ev applet, investing in HP gives the most bulk all-around, even at +1 SpD.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat sirndpt

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, but just wanted to point out that according to the defensive ev applet, investing in HP gives the most bulk all-around, even at +1 SpD.

Specs Latios's DM vs 156 HP Ttar: 60,26% - 71,05%. Same attack vs 156 SpD Ttar: 57,48% - 68,04%.

[alexwolf]

On the OU CB analysis, what is the use of the 156 HP evs? Is there any significant hit that Ttar survives from physical attackers?
Because i think that they should all be put to SpD, as with the 1,5 Sandstorm boost, Ttar special bulk rises quite a bit, allowing it to take on the special attackers that it is supposed to Pursuit, like Starmie, Latios, Celebi, etc easier.

What about this?

Also about Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona...
I think that Sub should be slashed with Bug Buzz or at least mentioned in AC.
With Sub, Volcarona can beat many of it's usual checks/counters like Toxic Tentacruel/Jellicent wihtour T-Spikes and Toxic Blissey with T-Spikes support. It can also use sub, while the opponent brings in Terakion and from there you can stall out SE's pps most of the time if you get a miss at the right time by spamming Sub, or if you simply have T-Spikes up. Most of the times this Volcarona attempts to make a clear sweep and comes in only late-game. This means that more often than not it will get at least 2-3 boosts, at which point the coverage loss of Bug Buzz doesn't really matter. The only problem when using Sub, is Heatran, so Dugtrio support is appreciated. I had a team centered around mono attacking Rona, with Ninetales, Dugtrio and T-Spikes support and this set was really good.

[Omicron]

There's already a Substitute set on-site... http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/volcarona

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Omicron

There's already a Substitute set on-site... http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/volcarona

Yeah but the one i am proposing is different that the one you mentioned. It is the same set as the Bulky QD on-site, but it uses Sub instead of Bug Buzz.

[yee]

I think the rain Volcarona set needs a slight modification, it's currently listed as-

252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Quiver Dance
-Bug Buzz
-Hurricane
-Fire Blast / Substitute

Sub QD from my experience does not do well with Bug / Flying coverage, this leaves it wide open to Skarmory and Sub isn't particularly useful when you can't take a Gyro Ball / Body Slam from Ferro / Skarm respectively. I use Hidden Power Water over Hurricane with sub, it makes it much easier to get past Skarmory and Heatran and compliments Bug Buzz much more. The spread I use is 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe Modest, this lets Volcarona set up on Ferrothorn and Jirachi, takes advantage of its high base SpA and lets it outrun Timid Scarf Rotom-W and Hydreigon / Haxorus which is all it needs to do, this set is more focused on grabbing extra boosts. Pokemon like Salamence and Gyarados which can take Bug / Water coverage are much easier to wear down with SR and deal with directly under rain.

Basically I would like to see Sub QD for rain seperated with all out attacking for rain because they play much differently and I've found the coverage options importantly different for both. Bug / Water >>> Bug / Flying.

[Oglemi*]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

On the OU CB analysis, what is the use of the 156 HP evs? Is there any significant hit that Ttar survives from physical attackers?
Because i think that they should all be put to SpD, as with the 1,5 Sandstorm boost, Ttar special bulk rises quite a bit, allowing it to take on the special attackers that it is supposed to Pursuit, like Starmie, Latios, Celebi, etc easier.

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

What about this?

Also about Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona...
I think that Sub should be slashed with Bug Buzz or at least mentioned in AC.
With Sub, Volcarona can beat many of it's usual checks/counters like Toxic Tentacruel/Jellicent wihtour T-Spikes and Toxic Blissey with T-Spikes support. It can also use sub, while the opponent brings in Terakion and from there you can stall out SE's pps most of the time if you get a miss at the right time by spamming Sub, or if you simply have T-Spikes up. Most of the times this Volcarona attempts to make a clear sweep and comes in only late-game. This means that more often than not it will get at least 2-3 boosts, at which point the coverage loss of Bug Buzz doesn't really matter. The only problem when using Sub, is Heatran, so Dugtrio support is appreciated. I had a team centered around mono attacking Rona, with Ninetales, Dugtrio and T-Spikes support and this set was really good.

Originally Posted by Fat yee

I think the rain Volcarona set needs a slight modification, it's currently listed as-

252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Quiver Dance
-Bug Buzz
-Hurricane
-Fire Blast / Substitute

Sub QD from my experience does not do well with Bug / Flying coverage, this leaves it wide open to Skarmory and Sub isn't particularly useful when you can't take a Gyro Ball / Body Slam from Ferro / Skarm respectively. I use Hidden Power Water over Hurricane with sub, it makes it much easier to get past Skarmory and Heatran and compliments Bug Buzz much more. The spread I use is 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe Modest, this lets Volcarona set up on Ferrothorn and Jirachi, takes advantage of its high base SpA and lets it outrun Timid Scarf Rotom-W and Hydreigon / Haxorus which is all it needs to do, this set is more focused on grabbing extra boosts. Pokemon like Salamence and Gyarados which can take Bug / Water coverage are much easier to wear down with SR and deal with directly under rain.

Basically I would like to see Sub QD for rain seperated with all out attacking for rain because they play much differently and I've found the coverage options importantly different for both. Bug / Water >>> Bug / Flying.

These are major changes and should be brought up in OU QC in separate threads.