Ubers CCAT: Stage 3 - Teammates

[Mr.lol]

Play with the EVs if you'd like, but you should at least have enough Speed to outrun Garchomp (and probably LO Terrakion but Ghost Arceus walls the crap out of it anyway) minimum.

All right so I played around with the Evs, and so far the best spread I came up with is, timid 252 HP / 124 Speed / 36 Spdef / 96 def

The idea of the ev's is somewhat simple, Max HP with 36 SpDef enables it to now take Specs Draco Meteors and recover the damage off. The 124 evs + a speed boosting nature enables Arceus to outspeed all Garchomp with around 3-4 extra speed for speed creeping those Lugia's that aim for that Garchomp benchmark. The rest is thrown into defense to severly weaken Extremkiller's Shadow Claw making only LO versions 2HKO. This enables Arceus to switch in on it when it tries to swords dance or revenge our genetic mutation and permanently cripple that Arceus with WoW (assuming it hits) or phaze it out.

It also OHKOes Giratina with Judgment after 2 Stealth Rock switch-in's and takes around 31% from its shadow sneak. I also recomend we go for Roar over Perish Song since its only noteworthy mention is OHKOing those things that try setting up at the last moment and Deoxys-a already does a great job at punishing those boosters.

Yay for forcing pokemon to do way more work then they need to :D, and checking all of Deo's major threats thats not scarfed Kyogre!

[Banedon]

Noob question but why Ghost Arceus instead of Giratina? If it's because of Rayquaza, then Ghost Arceus can't take Rayquaza's +1 LO Outrage well either and we'll be using Ferrothorn or Forretress anyway (for Spikes) so they can take Rayquaza's Outrage for Giratina.

Incidentally since we'll have to use Ferrothorn or Forretress why not run a Kyogre of our own to negate the Fire weakness, and make it a Thunder Wave variant so it can disable any Scarfed Palkias (or Scarfed anything, for that matter) for Deoxys-A? It would check Scarf Kyogre too.

[toybox]

The thing about ScarfRachi is that it's terribly weak, 100 Atk in Ubers ain't gonna cut it unless you're hitting something super effectively like an Ice Punch on Rayquaza. The most common priority user is SD Arceus, which Jirachi cannot do anything against. Arceus is immune to Trick and cannot beat Arceus unless it flinches it like 5 times in a row.

As for Ghost Arceus, it's actually pretty simple if you think about it. While Arceus lacks that Dragon typing and the raw defenses, he makes it up in stride with lack of a common weakness and Recover. His speed and powerful Judgement is also useful in various situations where Giratina-A is not. That and the fact that most people will not be expecting Ghost varient when they see Arceus on Team Preview. I advocate the set Fireburn posted; it's a great support set and check to Extremekiller. Forretress is also pretty solid choice since it can set up both Toxic Spikes and Spikes (or SR I guess) that benefit Deoxys-A destroy shit and cannot be spun due to Ghost Arceus. Forretress also has that slow Volt Switch to bring in Deoxys-A whenever. Great synergy between the two overall.

[ZetoTarken]

Originally Posted by Fat toybox

The thing about ScarfRachi is that it's terribly weak, 100 Atk in Ubers ain't gonna cut it unless you're hitting something super effectively like an Ice Punch on Rayquaza. The most common priority user is SD Arceus, which Jirachi cannot do anything against. Arceus is immune to Trick and cannot beat Arceus unless it flinches it like 5 times in a row.

Normal Arceus is vulnerable to trick, provided you aren't trying to trick a plate onto him.

[McNUTTY]

I nominate Thunder Wave Kyorge. By faking scarf/specs, most scarfers are destroyed by thunder wave, especially Palkia, probably the common scarfer, because it does counter Kyorge that are scarfed/specs users. Kyorge also forces switches with it's ridiculous attacks, that not many threats can wall, this combo's well with the hazards that can be placed by either Ferrothorn or Forretress, these two also form a very strong defensive core for Deoxys to fall back on.

Set proposed:

Kyogre@Leftovers/Lum Berry/Expert Belt
EV's: 252 HP 252 Special Attack 4 Speed.
Nature: Modest.
Surf/Hydro Pump
Thunder
Ice Beam
Thunder Wave.

The set is simple, ev's give Kyorge the bulk to tank special hits and some not very effective physical hits, and being able to switch into scizor and metagross quite easily covers Deoxys well, Special attack ev's make Kyorge as much of a threat as he can be forcing switches. The item choice is also easy, Leftovers for passive recovery, Lum Berry and Expert belt allow Kyorge to fake a Scarf/Specs set to try force scarfers like Palkia to switch into ThunderWave, making them useless for the rest of the game. The Set used gives the powerful coverage that Kyorge is known for and Thunderwave to really cripple the enemy team.

[Go10]

He isnt effective as it was in gen 4, we'll just by let Ferrothorn doing anything he want.

[Furai]

Originally Posted by Fat prem

lastly i propose the spread gets changed to 72 atk / 252 spa / 184 spe naive (spe+, spdef-). this lets deo-a outspeed modest scarf base 90s (anything faster is normally nonexistant or cannot be outspeed even with the current spread). the 72 attack evs allow deo-a superpower to nearly always OHKO 0 hp dialga, while giving a nice boost to its extremespeed.

Here are my calcs (compared with Jibaku's post);
[first one is your spread, second one is the other spread]

• vs 4/0 Reshiram:
  - 459 Atk vs 276 Def & 342 HP (140 Base Power): 325 - 384 (95.03% - 112.28%)
  - 504 Atk vs 276 Def & 342 HP (140 Base Power): 357 - 420 (104.39% - 122.81%)
• Palkia is OHKOed by both sets by Psycho Boost.
• Groudon is OHKOed by both sets by Psycho Boost too.
• Wallceus is 2HKOed even when -2.
• 252/0 Kyogre is also 2HKOed even when -2.
• vs 248/0 Giratina:
  - 459 Atk vs 276 Def & 503 HP (140 Base Power): 325 - 384 (64.61% - 76.34%) [not KO'd by a following Shadow Ball, if Psycho Boost again it does ~96.62% if both were minimum damage]
  - 504 Atk vs 276 Def & 503 HP (140 Base Power): 357 - 420 (70.97% - 83.50%)
• vs 248/0 Ho-oh:
  - 459 Atk vs 344 Def & 415 HP (140 Base Power): 261 - 307 (62.89% - 73.98%) [again, if both Psycho Boosts are minimum it does 94.7%]
  - 504 Atk vs 344 Def & 415 HP (140 Base Power): 288 - 339 (69.40% - 81.69%) [solid 2HKO]
• Specially Defense Forretress is OHKOed by Psycho Boost + Superpower by both sets, assuming SR damage.
• Ferrothorn is 2HKOed too, by Psycho Boost + Superpower, even without SR.
• 4/0 Mewtwo is 2HKOed by Psycho Boost + ExtremeSpeed, although your set does 99.15% minimum and the other clean 2HKOs
• vs 252/0 Lugia: if we choose to run Ice Beam over Shadow Ball, then Lugia is 2HKOed by both sets.
  - 459 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 200 - 236 (48.08% - 56.73%) (29.91% to 2HKO)
  - 504 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 220 - 260 (52.88% - 62.50%) (99.41% to 2HKO)

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Fireburn

First of all we need to look at the most common enemies of Deoxys-A:

Scizor and Metagross (can checkmate you with Bullet Punch or Pursuit, former loathes Psycho Boost though).
Physical Arceus and Rayquaza (Extremespeed).
Giratina-O (Shadow Sneak.)
Scarfers. The main ones are Kyogre, Palkia, and Terrakion kind of.

I'd like to propose this as a way to start off:

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Judgment
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar / Perish Song

Yeah, this thing can deal with all the hazard users quite nicely and also fills in the role of a spin blocker. Logically what follows from here is that we need hazards to help Deoxys-A get those critical KOs and force the opponent to think twice before pivoting from Chansey to Giratina-O or the like, thus easing prediction. I dont really like Forretress but admittedly it suits the role quite well because of being able to set up multiple hazards + Volt Switch. However, I dont think we should stack all our hazards on Forretress since if it goes down, we'll be in a fix. So we should probably get Forry to Spike and leave SR to another pokemon that would be chosen down the road IMO.

Since, I personally feel Deoxys-A should be used with the flow so I'd like to recommend either Scarf LO Zekrom or Scizor as U-Turn / Volt Switch users. Zekrom would pretty much be my choice because of its powerful (sexy) Bolt Strike + being able to screw Giratina-O with Dragon Claw, Mewtwo with Bolt Strike and a host of other Pokemon. Draco Meteor can always help with Groudon but its not good to be locked into a - 2 Draco Meteor on a Pokemon with a "mere" 120 SpA.

[Hawkstar]

I think someone suggested CM RestTalk Kyogre, and I think that would be a good addition to the team to patch up a weakness to another common(ish) Scarfer, which would be Darkrai. It easily ambushes Deoxys-A and scares away Arceus-Ghost with Dark Pulse. Kyogre can absorb Dark Pulses and Dark Voids pretty well, and fits the bulky offense theme well. The only thing of Darkrai's that Kyogre can't take is Trick. Scarf Palkia would naturally follow as a teammate for our scarfer.

[Furai]

Just saying; Deoxys-A outspeeds Darkrai and smacks him with a single Superpower.

[Banedon]

Originally Posted by Fat toybox

As for Ghost Arceus, it's actually pretty simple if you think about it. While Arceus lacks that Dragon typing and the raw defenses, he makes it up in stride with lack of a common weakness and Recover. His speed and powerful Judgement is also useful in various situations where Giratina-A is not. That and the fact that most people will not be expecting Ghost varient when they see Arceus on Team Preview. I advocate the set Fireburn posted; it's a great support set and check to Extremekiller. Forretress is also pretty solid choice since it can set up both Toxic Spikes and Spikes (or SR I guess) that benefit Deoxys-A destroy shit and cannot be spun due to Ghost Arceus. Forretress also has that slow Volt Switch to bring in Deoxys-A whenever. Great synergy between the two overall.

On the other hand, Dragon typing lets you tank Surfs, Thunders and Fire Blasts, which is certainly an asset. Since it's this early into the team-building process, I think it's a bit too soon to dismiss Giratina (and Giratina-O, for that matter).

Are Toxic Spikes necessary for Deoxys-A? TSpikes are more of a defensive tool than an offensive one, especially for a Pokemon like Deoxys-A that can't take a hit so he can't fish for a crit / paralysis etc while the defender uses its recovery move. So if we do use a Forretress, why not give it Toxic to hit Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus instead?

[Hawkstar]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

Just saying; Deoxys-A outspeeds Darkrai and smacks him with a single Superpower.

I was talking about Scarf Darkrai.

Originally Posted by Fat Hawkstar

I think someone suggested CM RestTalk Kyogre, and I think that would be a good addition to the team to patch up a weakness to another common(ish) Scarfer, which would be Darkrai.

[Poppy]

Originally Posted by Fat barry4ever

Yeah, this thing can deal with all the hazard users quite nicely and also fills in the role of a spin blocker. Logically what follows from here is that we need hazards to help Deoxys-A get those critical KOs and force the opponent to think twice before pivoting from Chansey to Giratina-O or the like, thus easing prediction. I dont really like Forretress but admittedly it suits the role quite well because of being able to set up multiple hazards + Volt Switch. However, I dont think we should stack all our hazards on Forretress since if it goes down, we'll be in a fix. So we should probably get Forry to Spike and leave SR to another pokemon that would be chosen down the road IMO.

Since, I personally feel Deoxys-A should be used with the flow so I'd like to recommend either Scarf Zekrom or Scizor as U-Turn / Volt Switch users. Zekrom would pretty much be my choice because of its powerful (sexy) Bolt Strike + being able to screw Giratina-O with Dragon Claw, Mewtwo with Bolt Strike and a host of other Pokemon. Draco Meteor can always help with Groudon but its not good to be locked into a - 2 Draco Meteor on a Pokemon with a "mere" 120 SpA.

Suicide lead forretress is always viable; I agree with spikes / sr over tspikes, so a set of rapid spin / spikes / sr / volt switch on forry isn't a bad idea. However, if one loathes to put forretress on a team due to its set-up bait nature then an SR lead dialga is an excellent lead for an offensive team, either LO with sr and 3 attacks or bulky with sr / roar / dragon pulse / fire blast.

[Pocket]

For a frail yet destructive mon like Deoxys-A, I always found Healing Wish to be useful. Not only does it safely switches in Deoxys-A safely, it heals off any hazards / lo damage, making it much harder to stall it out with lo recoils, lol, and offers Deoxys-A a second wave of destruction. Specially-defensive Jirachi does this well. It also provides Wish support for bulkier members of the teams, and can provide slow U-turns for Deoxys-A to come in safely. Of course going with the paralysis route is an option, and it will actually help Jirachi to last longer thanks to paraflinch hax.


Healing Wish Jirachi
Jirachi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef | Careful Nature
~ Iron Head
~ U-turn / Thunder / Body Slam
~ Wish
~ Healing Wish

If we go with Jirachi, the team needs a solid answer to Ferrothorn.

EDIT: Did Smogon's server correct Healing Wish's mechanism? Either way, it still helps Deoxys-A to come in unscathed with some healing to boot. Wish + slow U-turn can heal off entry hazards damage, too.

[Katakiri]

Healing Wish heals before Entry Hazards, so you'll still take hazard damage.

[Go10]

If we take this Jira and assuming we already have Deo-a / Fore / GhostCeus, we definitely need something for Ferrothorn, he can setup his EH all the day (fore lose thanks to Leech Seed + Iron Barbs). I'm not convinced by Jira though.

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Hawkstar

I was talking about Scarf Darkrai.

Darkrai is NOT a common Scarfer, I dont even remember when I last saw a Scarf Darkrai.

[Banedon]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

For a frail yet destructive mon like Deoxys-A, I always found Healing Wish to be useful. Not only does it safely switches in Deoxys-A safely, it heals off any hazards / lo damage, making it much harder to stall it out with lo recoils, lol, and offers Deoxys-A a second wave of destruction. Specially-defensive Jirachi does this well. It also provides Wish support for bulkier members of the teams, and can provide slow U-turns for Deoxys-A to come in safely. Of course going with the paralysis route is an option, and it will actually help Jirachi to last longer thanks to paraflinch hax.


Healing Wish Jirachi
Jirachi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef | Careful Nature
~ Iron Head
~ U-turn / Thunder / Body Slam
~ Wish
~ Healing Wish

If we go with Jirachi, the team needs a solid answer to Ferrothorn.

EDIT: Did Smogon's server correct Healing Wish's mechanism? Either way, it still helps Deoxys-A to come in unscathed with some healing to boot. Wish + slow U-turn can heal off entry hazards damage, too.

Healing Wish heals before you take hazard damage, so if for example Stealth Rock is up the recipient goes to 87% (not 100%).

I'm skeptical about Healing Wish for Deoxys-A, though. Deoxys-A gets 11 attacks with Life Orb. For something that can't take a hit, dishing out 11 hits without taking a single one in reply is a little far-fetched. Even accounting for hazard damage, Deoxys-A is looking at ~6 attacks. If the other team hasn't folded by those 6 attacks, Healing Wish isn't likely to help! I think U-turn and Volt Switch are more helpful, but not Healing Wish.

Is there a reason why we're dismissing Ferrothorn as our hazard setter in favour of Forretress?

[CommandurrClowncrete]

Ferrothorn >> Forretress. Specially defensive ferrothorn covers many threats like Kyogre.

Foretress does have volt switch and Rapid spin but IMO Ferrothorn is more useful.

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Rby94

Ferrothorn >> Forretress. Specially defensive ferrothorn covers many threats like Kyogre.

Foretress does have volt switch and Rapid spin but IMO Ferrothorn is more useful.

Could you clarify how in this particular case Ferrothorn is better ? Forretress would always seem the better choice to me for Volt Switch to pass to Deoxys-A and Rapid Spin for removing hazards. Getting hazards off the field is absolutely crucial since Deoxys-A will hate eating in 25% from hazards every time it switches in. Since, it is a hit and run Pokemon, that reduces it to less than 4 switches with LO recoil. Remember this is a offensive team, so we really arent "that" bothered with getting a counter to every pokemon.

[Banedon]

Well we aren't comparing single Pokemon right, but a team: we can use Ferrothorn and then another spinner (Excadrill or Tentacruel), which would still cover all the bases.

Forretress having Volt Switch is certainly an advantage, though.

[Furai]

Guys, we need more teammates! So far it seems like we only have 1 justified teammate, and that is Support Arceus-Ghost. Forretress is also questionable right now, according to your posts.

I also want your opinon on which set we should pick for Deoxys;
- 20 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 236 Speed, Mild Nature
- 72 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 184 Speed, Naive Nature
Damage comparison: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=132


I also updated the OP with some pretty pictures :3

[waterwarrior]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

Guys, we need more teammates! So far it seems like we only have 1 justified teammate, and that is Support Arceus-Ghost.

Originally Posted by Fat waterwarrior

I nominate Choice Scarf Terrakion. Deo-A's worst enemy is priority (take your pick, they all screw him up), and Terrakion was made for taking priority in Ubers bar the rare Scizor BP. As you guys all know, its an awesome check EDIT: EK and Steel (did not know CM took that little, the importance of calcs :/) Arceus forms, while it honestly has trouble taking out Giratina-O. Its key base 108 Speed lets it outspeed most of the tier already, taking out opponents when Deoxys goes down or can't quite pull off the sweep just yet.

The only feedback this got was how I was incorrect on how it beat CM Arceus forms, did no one else see this? >.>

[Furai]

Oh wow, I can't believe I missed that. CS Terrakion is also pretty much justified. Sorry 'bout that.

[Hawkstar]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

Guys, we need more teammates! So far it seems like we only have 1 justified teammate, and that is Support Arceus-Ghost. Forretress is also questionable right now, according to your posts.

I also want your opinon on which set we should pick for Deoxys;
- 20 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 236 Speed, Mild Nature
- 72 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 184 Speed, Naive Nature
Damage comparison: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=132


I also updated the OP with some pretty pictures :3

I like the first spread. The one thing people think of when they see LO Deoxys-A is "Psycho Boost", so that should be hitting at max power. On the other hand, no calcs have been done for Superpower besides pairing it with another attack. I'd like to see calcs for Superpower alone on it's more important targets, such as the pink blobs, Dialga, and the Arceus types that are weak to it. The only way I feel we can justify using the second set is if it gains Superpower practically every OHKO it misses with the first set.

I'd also like to nitpick here, and say we should change its nature from Mild to Rash. There is pretty much only one attack in the game that doesn't OHKO Deoxys-A, and that is Mach Punch. Even a CB Iron Fist Mach Punch from Conkeldurr cannot OHKO Rash Deoxys-A at 100% health. Mach Punch is virtually non-existant, but since Mild and Rash are easily interchangeable, why not?