Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Nickscor]

Originally Posted by Fat waterwarrior

I'm new to the competitive side of the Battle Subway, and was wondering on the definition of "cheating your way through" (yea, noob question, I know)

If you use legal hacks (perfect IV's, but with legal movepools and EV's), does it count as cheating or just another way to go through?

Legal hacks still count as cheating, it's actually stated in the OP. 5th Gen RNG Abuse is really easy and high streaks are still attainable if you have decent Mons to work with. (Look at R Inanimate's teams if you doubt this)

[Splarticus]

@Nickscor

Thanks for the catch. I got that Chansey in trade, and thought it would be good for the team. I guess I need to breed all of the pokes for Battle Subway myself to be sure they're legit.

Mud-slap could be used as a replacement for Seismic Toss to help push through Taunters, although it wouldn't be as effective for straight up damage.

[Progeusz]

Legal hacks still count as cheating, it's actually stated in the OP.

Where? I don't see any statement that perfect IVs = cheating.
IMO it's not a matter of 10 more IVs in Defense on your Garchomp, it's rather that there's no way to get some Pokes without lurking on trading threads for days, you can't request Pokemon which you haven't seen on GTS.

[R Inanimate]

Originally Posted by Fat Progeusz

Where? I don't see any statement that perfect IVs = cheating.

From the first post:
"If you consider yourself honorable, don't cheat your streaks in any way. If you do cheat, stay away from this topic. This is a rather highly competitive field of play and the majority of the incredible streaks acquired in the past wouldn't have been possible without this kind of record listing, but there will always be trust issues. Play fair."

It doesn't say that perfect IVs = cheating, but it does say that you shouldn't be cheating to get perfect IVs. I don't think we have any actual way of knowing if someone used legal hacks or not, unless they say it themselves. As such, we sort of have to go by the honor system when it comes to this sort of thing.

[atsync]

If that isn't good enough, Peterko actually addressed legal hacks a while ago (when someone posted 2 streaks with hacked which were disallowed even though one of them actually had legal hacks:

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

2. Cheating is bad, because it´s a comparative advantage one normally wouldn´t have.

For example I had to wait until the Wi-Fi event in HGSS to have a shot at a perfect Latios/Latias, which I still had to RNG. Before that, I only had a Hasty 30/23/10/30/30/27 Latios but I still got to 459 in the DP Tower with it. I also had a Timid 29/2/29/29/31/31 Latias from an insane emerald reset (frame 762330, which is like a 4 hour wait for just 1 reset) that I used to get my 2363 Plat Tower streak with.

Now I didn´t buy both versions so I only have Tornadus (its soft reset was a pain because I wasn´t prepared enough before going to the house, it took about two days).
I don´t have Thundurus nor Landorus, because I´m kind of paranoid to trade for them. But whatever, I use what I have access to.

The point still stands that this topic is mainly for those competitive players that want to measure themselves with others, not "who can cheat the best".

3. I think there was a general consensus last time this was brought up, that this topic is built on a certain level of trust, which means people should be honest about their streaks as:
a) there is almost no way to figure out a cheat from a pro (unless it´s as blatant as "heat wave thund") and
b) cheating records is no accomplishment at all, so by my logic it would be a waste of time to cheat a record and post it in here (unless it´s a troll).

The preventive mechanism we use is "you have to post proof (pic, video, video #)" and "describe the strategy behind your team" so that the particular streaks are believable to an extent...

Note that there is a difference between cheating Pokémon to use in a streak and to cheat a streak (I don´t know and don´t want to know how to do the latter), but there´s a thin line I don´t want to cross and that is to openly allow "legal hacks", because the ability to create your pokémon is just a step from using save states of streaks or whatever else.

There is no way for me to know whether someone uses cheated Pokémon, unless they admit it (or mention in in their sig lol). Now so far, I was quite generous to also list such records, because they´re not top5 or whatever plus I don´t want to demotivate people to play the game. I know that´s kind of hypocritical, but the rule still stands:

If you cheat, I have all the right to not post your streak, or post it but later take it down when I decide so (or if there´s people who complain).

Also marking streaks with * or something would mean (I think) that I´m OK with "legal hacks" which simply isn´t true. Again, cheating pokémon/streak is at your own risk of not being recognized as a legitimate streak and thus not be put on the list to measure yourself with others.

So even if you do use legal hacks, it is still unfair for those who obtain their pokemon with a legal method (whether it be RNG abuse, lengthy chain-breeding sessions, or even just soft resetting until you get something that is usable) because it gives you an advantage against those who chose to do things legally but don't have access to particular pokemon. For example, I can RNG most things (anything that can be bred for example), but I don't have access to things like a flawless Thundurus or Tornadus because I caught them before I bothered to learn how to RNG abuse. It is therefore unfair to me and others like me if someone just hacks a perfect one in a flash whereas I have to put up with a crappy one (unless I delete my game and play through again, but then I would lose everything else I've unlocked which is lame).

Of course, it depends on how much it bothers people I guess (I've gotten decent streaks with just the stuff I have access to, so I couldn't care less). But as you can see Peterko IS bothered by it, and this is his topic so...

As R Inanimate says, it is hard to prove that someone is hacking if they are careful about it, and it is possible that SOME of the streaks at the lower end of the lists are hacked (whether it be knowingly by the player who made the streak, or whether it be unknowingly if the player obtained the pokemon through GTS or something). We use picture proof and strategy summaries to help prove that streaks are legit, but that only helps to prove that the streak was legally made, not that the pokemon used are legal. Therefore a great deal of trust has to be applied. Peterko usually doesn't care so much about posting 'suspicious' teams on the list if they are further down or something, but openly acknowledging that legal hacks is ok is a potential slippery slope (yeah I know we all hate that term but whatever). If someone is willing to hack their pokemon, what's to stop them from just hacking their actual streak?

So basically all of this is why legal hacks are disallowed.

[BeastMode2010]

I have read every guide on RNG abuse...and it still confuses the hell out of me. lol. But I do use it to try and determine IVs...which doesn't work well since I check them after they are EV trained...and it tells me that the IVs are impossible. lol

[NoCheese]

There are some nice YouTube videos out there, or at least there are for PPRNG. That's how I learned the basics, at which point the guides made more sense and I was able to use them for more advanced issues. Once you nail down the basics, 5th Generation RNG really is remarkably straightforward. I'm sure there are videos out there for RNG Reporter too, so probably worth giving those a try.

Changing the subject entirely, I'd love to see the leaderboard updated, particularly with ~Mercury~ going over the top with a big 509 streak in singles. Jumpman16's 371 appears to still be active though, so I imagine we'll see a big jump next time he posts!

[Splarticus]

@Beastmode

Did you think of a Volcarona like this?

Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 SpD
Bug Buzz
Substitute
Morning Sun
Quiver Dance

Given a chance to set up with 6 QD and a substitute, he'll be nigh unstoppable. Unfortunately, he shares a rock weakness with the similar build Dragonite, or the two of them would make a great pair after a Whimiscott or other flasher intro.

[BeastMode2010]

I haven't tried a defensive set volc yet. But it's an interesting idea. I never really worry about status problems though. Since he's already immune to burn and paralyze doesn't really effect him after +6. lol. Toxic would be a problem, but with the sub in that set it becomes useless. I'd probably go with sitrus berry, as I've been working with that and its been working great.

I'm finishing training up the Timid Chandy that IR used and I'm gonna switch volc for chandy as I've been noticing that volc and ferro don't complement each other really well. Or maybe I need to rebreed my whims and let him learn charm, as that seems like it could be a great help

[Errr]

Soundproof pokemons stop that set completely, such as exploud.

[VaporeonIce]

And it's just downright embarrassing when your +6/+6/+6 Volcarona loses to a Mr. Mime.

[NoCheese]

Well, that a small number of pokes have an immunity to a mono attacking set is not necessarily fatal in the Subway, as I learned with Scald/Calm Mind/Substitute/Rest Suicune. Even if you can't hurt them directly, if you can either a) stall them out, or b) have a teammate who can switch in and beat them, you're just fine. The only enemy pokemon in the subway that can have Soundproof are Mr. Mime, Exploud, and Electrode, so working around their immunity should not be too bad if you want to build a team around mono-attacking Volcarona.

As noted earlier, the far bigger issue with Volcarona is that quad rock weakness, as lots of subway pokemon have physical rock attacks, which you can't even boost against, and a number of them are sturdy, meaning even if you are fully set up, they'll still survive at 1 HP and get a stone edge off. That said, if you're fully set up behind a sub, you'll lose your sub but still beat a sturdy stone edge user, so you probably can make a Volcarona-based team work. I'm pretty sure Suicune still does the mono-attacking job better, but one shouldn't just write off Volcarona automaticly.

[BeastMode2010]

Volc's fraility is a concern, and its come into play many times when they get hax through -6 accuracy and get a stone edge/rock slide hit, but Ferro comes in pretty well to take those guys out thanks to hit insane defense, and he can curse up without even being behind a sub.

I have been thinking about switching to a bulkier mon like Scrafty/Gyarados since they can both use DD, or even a bulky TTar since the SS can help break Focus Sash and it helps with the SDef of Ferro, but its a lot to consider...and a lot of breeding/EV training. lol

[R Inanimate]

Originally Posted by Fat BeastMode2010

I have been thinking about switching to a bulkier mon like Scrafty/Gyarados since they can both use DD, or even a bulky TTar since the SS can help break Focus Sash and it helps with the SDef of Ferro, but its a lot to consider...and a lot of breeding/EV training. lol

Sandstorm doesn't boost Ferrothorn's Special Defense. It's not a rock type.

[BeastMode2010]

Oh. Didn't know that it didn't boost all SDef. lol

[Peterko]

Updated the list.

Post here if I made any mistakes or forgot someone.

I haven´t played Pokémon since the last update (November 4th), I think I needed a break after 7 months of non-stop play everyday. Oh well, I did play for an hour on the 18th I think, only to lose at #30 with MetaTorn because of not paying attention.

Lol but the main reason I´m not playing is the fact that I bought a new PC for my "office" on the 23rd, but of course, I wanted something to be able to play games with. i7-2600, 2TB HDD, 8GB RAM, GTX570. Apparently, they give you free games if you buy such a video card and I got Batman Arkham City, which got released exactly 5 hours after I had finished the 16GB download from Steam on the 25th. Unfortunately for me, that pretty much killed all of my time, not just free time...

131 hours played over the past 16 days (minus the 3 days I didn´t play because I had to write an appeal plus an analysis for another client), that´s 10 hrs per day on average lol. I´ll probably get back to Pokémon eventually, seeing as I´ve almost finished all achievments.

Keep up the good work guys and good luck in your streaks.

[Ripamon]

New Streak.
Not all together impressive, capping off at 96.



It starts off with Zapdos...Zapdos aka Electric
Timid Nature
Messed up Ivs
126hp 126 sp.atk, 252 speed evs(sucks i know)
@Sitrus Berry
Pressure
Toxic
Thunderbolt
Substitute
Roost

The classic SubStall Zapdos. Usually results in a free 3-0 victory. Basically the strategy is to toxic on the first turn, or sub if they are likely to use status attacks.
I attack straight away if they are weak to thunderbolt, stall out Stone edges, and always remain alert for misses and not very effective moves to throw a toxic in.

Suicune aka Water
@leftovers
Bold Nature,252Hp,252 Def, 1 Sp.Def
31/-/31/31/31/31
Scald
Icy Wind
Rest
Calm Mind

A set from a smogoner whose name escapes me.Saved me in countless battles.You all know how she works.



Garchomp aka Blueflash
@choice scarf
31/31/31/19/31/31
252 atk,252 speed
Jolly
Earthquake
Fire Blast
Outrage
Dragon Claw


In my first streak, i went with an Adamant Garchomp, but lost to the subway boss because of his dragon dancing Haxorus. I found out that even with a choice scarf, an Adamant Garchomp is still slower than a jolly +1 Garchomp. Because of this, i acquired a jolly one, forgoing the slight drop in power.


Anyway, Garchomp is basically there to fight electrics, which threathen both my first two pokemon, and also to combat Stone Edge users, if i fear for the crit on my Zapdos.

[kid31]

Hi, my first post here. Just reached 70 wins on the Battle Subway Super Single Line.

Here is the team I used. I can't, for the life of me, understand RNG, so I breed my pokemon the old fashioned way. IVs were calculated using Serebii's IV calculator

Abomasnow ( Naive Nature + Spd, - SpD )
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA/ 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Item: Choice Scarf
IVs: 11/30/18/31/26/31
1. Earthquake
2. Blizzard
3. Energy Ball
4. Focus Blast
I was really surprised with Abomasnow's Blizzard. Ice being one of the better offensive types, makes Abomasnow's 100% accurate Blizzard a real threat ( some freeze hax too ). Hail gets rid of sashes, gives Mamoswine snow cloak, and negates most leftovers recovery.

Mamoswine ( Adamant Nature + Atk, - SpA )
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk/ 252Spd/ 4 Hp
Item: Focus Sash
IVs: 17/31/30/14/14/21
1. Icicle Crash
2. Ice Shard
3. Stone Edge
4. Earthquake
Ice Shard and Snow Cloak ( especially for WoW ) have saved me so many times. Mamoswine provides the means to get rid of other weather inducers, takes down Special Walls, and does not take damage from Sandstorm as well. My main physical attacker. Can also take rock attacks unlike my other 2 pokes.

Chandelure ( Timid + Spd, -Atk )
Ability: Flash Fire
EVS: 252 SpA/ 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Item: Air Balloon
IVs: 29/30/2/31/30/31
1. Psychic
2. Flamethrower
3. Shadow Ball
4. Energy Ball
My special attacker. Usually switches in on fire and fighting attacks directed at the snow man. Has 4 immunities with the Air Balloon, giving him a lot of switch in oppurtunities. All 4 attacks have had some use one time or another. Also gives my team a much needed fire attack.

Ice is really an amazing offensive type. STAB 100% Accurate Blizzard is even better. Dragons were never a problem. The Snow Man's weaknesses are generally covered by his team mates. Mamoswine and Chandelure are both hard hitters providing extra type coverage.

Threats: The pokes that gave me a hard time were mostly those ice types who benefited from Abomasnow's Hail. Especially troublesome are those who can outspeed and wreck Chandelure ( Weavile and Froslass) Pokes who outspeed Scarf'd Abomasnow are also hard to deal with, most notable of which is Aerodactyl. I was also surprised at how tough those legendary pokes can be. Latios/Latias and Virizion can take Blizzard from Abomasnow and KO back, though they usually die from Hail or from Mamosine's Ice shard. Milotic and Ludicolo also deserve special mention for being really annoying.

[Splarticus]

Ooooo. . . Good point about soundproof pokes. That would suck. So instead, you would have to use Silver Wind? Not as much damage, but at +6, that's probably ok.

Leveraging the awesome data available here from TRE, Peterko, and others and Slipperjeans' spreadsheet, I tweaked my Battle Subway worksheet to display move set by Trainer/Pokemon combo. In most situations, this will tell you the exact move set and damage given/taken before the first move.



Here's the download.

It takes a lot of the guesswork out of the Super Subway.

[NoCheese]

Originally Posted by Fat Splarticus

Ooooo. . . Good point about soundproof pokes. That would suck. So instead, you would have to use Silver Wind? Not as much damage, but at +6, that's probably ok.

I still think that unless you are going all-in on Volcarona, with both of your other pokemon having no attacks and being used purely to set up Volcarona, you are better off just making sure you have a teammate that can handle the three soundproof pokemon you'll find in the subway. None of the soundproof pokes are particularly threatening, and silver wind only maxes at 8 pp, which seems dangerously low for a mono attack.

Moreover, if you are going to have your whole team focus on setting up just one poke, Drapion and Dragonite will probably serve you better.

[Errr]

I guess that you could use bug HP instead of silver wind lol.

[atsync]

Hi. It's been a little while since I've played the Subway, but now I've finished Skyward Sword I have found more time to play. I mentioned a little while back about how I was trying a team with Murkrow on it. That didn't really work out lol. Yeah I'm not even going to post the actual team because the streaks it managed are laughably bad.

I did make a new team though. I got to 73 wins. Yeah I know it's not jaw droppingly good but I'm posting it anyway because I'm actually quite fond of this team.



Volcarona @ Focus Sash
Flame Body
Timid
IVs:31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs:6/0/0/252/0/252
Stats: 161/68/85/187/125/167

Heat Wave
Bug Buzz
Psychic
Protect



Alomomola @ Mental Herb
Healer
Careful
IVs:31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs:110/0/148/0/252/0
Stats: 254/95/119/42/106/85

Waterfall
Heal Pulse
Helping Hand
Wide Guard



Latios @ Life Orb
Levitate
Timid
IVs:31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs:6/0/0/252/0/252
Stats: 156/89/100/182/130/178

Dragon Pulse
Psyshock
Thunderbolt
Protect



Bisharp @ Sitrus Berry
Defiant
Adamant
IVs:31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs:228/252/0/0/28/0
Stats:169/194/120/70/94/90

Sucker Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Protect

I was looking for some ideas and decided to go through Smogon's VGC analyses. I figured that Alomomola is a cool and interesting pokemon so I started there.

Alomomola is a wonderful supporter and has some really good attributes. For one, it's bulky as hell, despite the low Sp. Def.. With my EV spread, it can survive a Thunder from a Jolteon! It also has Healer. 33% chance of removing status from a teammate is really handy (though not reliable enough to just throw your pokemon into an obvious Thunder Wave). The only downside is that it can't heal itself of status, but Alomomola doesn't care too much about status. Helping Hand and is self-explanitory. Wide Guard is useful given who my other lead is. Heal Pulse has been useful for removing residual damage from teammates as they switch in, among other situations. Waterfall is weak as hell but gives me something to use when support isn't required (and it can break Focus Sash/Sturdy). Mental Herb blocks Taunt, though it didn't really come into play that much (just once I think).

The analysis said that Volcarona was a good partner. I've been meaning to breed a good one for a while so better late than never I guess. Alomomola's Wide Guard protects Volcarona from Rock Slide and Surf, its two most hated attacks to face. Helping Hand boosts the power of its Heat Wave, which really helps me destroy the opposing leads more quickly and easily. Bug Buzz is a good secondary STAB. Psychic is filler but its nice for dealing with fighting types (and I was to lazy to breed a good Hidden Power). Protect actually works well alongside Wide Guard. I can completely avoid Rock Slide if I alternate between Wide Guard and Protect! Focus Sash helps in case I mispredict or whatever.

Latios and Bisharp were picked because they seemed to have good type synergy with my leads, but I didn't really put too much thought into it. I'm running Protect on Latios now rather than Grass Knot but that's not that important. Latios really doesn't need to be explained at all really. Bisharp was accidently copied from TRE/R Inanimate's Multi Team (I came up with the moves and then realised later that he already came up with it)! It's a little weak at times since it doesn't have Swords Dance anymore but Sucker Punch is useful and it has tons of resistances/immunities (the fighting weakness is a pain though, but that's why I have Protect).

So yeah, I didn't put TOO much effort into building this team but it worked and it was fun to use.

Generally the biggest threats to this team are Legendary and Water teams, since they have lots of pokemon that resist Heat Wave and that puts me on the back foot from the start. Set up sweepers like Quiver Dance Volcarona also suck as it can be hard to kill them quickly when only one of my leads has a notable offensive presence (especially if the other lead is also a threat).

I lost to a Gentleman using a Legendary team. I can't remember the exact details as I didn't save the battle, but basically the opponent lead with Calm Mind Raikou teamed up with Choice Scarf Terrakion. Not cool. I was switching like crazy but with Latias and Moltres as back ups it was to no avail. I might have been better off not being a pussy at the start and just taking the risk of staying in. Actually, Raikou opened with Calm Mind so I could have stayed in with Volcarona and survived the Stone Edge to kill Terrakion with Psychic which would have given me a better chance of winning. It still would be tough though given Raikou would have a Calm Mind under it's belt.

I'm retiring this team now. Hopefully I will come up with something else that will actually improve my personal best by a significant amount (99 is not very good hahaha).

[Taylor]

Has anyone tried Latios lead in Battle Subway Singles, with Memento, Dragon Pulse, Trick and lastly Calm Mind.

Do not be afraid to Trick users which force them directly into your Steel-type of some kind so you can set up (bulky Excadrill, wild example) assuming they're locked into Dragon/Ghost/Dark/Bug or even Ice-type moves.

I used it with Scizor and Heatran to reach well in to the 100s and with potential to go further on. If you manage to set Latios up in any given match, your Scizor/Tran combination is lurking in the shadows to take care of anything that successfuly deals with Latios.

I ran Focus Sash on Heatran to ensure I can attack with Overheat/Hidden Power [Grass]/Earth Power/Dragon Pulse; Scizor can follow afterwards and revenge kill what Heatran could not OHKO.

Swords Dance and Calm Mind were the secret in hopes to continue the streak far into 120s before I switched Heatran out for Blaziken; figured I'd need his power and coverage to help lift the overall rating of my team of three set-up sweepers.

My streak is sitting just under the 150s and if I manage reach for 200+ with this particular team, I will post a review.

[NoCheese]

I really, really like that Latios, and love its flexibility to either trick + memento and allow a teammate to set up, or trick and then have the option to set up and sweep itself. Kind of kicking myself for erasing trick from my Latios since I can't relearn it in Gen 5, else I'd definitely give that set a try myself!

[Splarticus]

I finally beat Emmet on the Super Double Subway. Dayam, Double is hard. I tried making a non-weather team based off Fabsmg68 team, but with different pokes aside from Slaking.


Slaking @ Life Orb
Truant
Adamant
EVs:0/252/0/0/6/252
Double-Edge
Rock Slide
Earthquake
Slack Off

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Magic Guard
Timid
EVs:150/0/132/0/0/228
Skill Swap
Psychic
Focus Blast
Protect

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Levitate
Sassy
EVs:252/0/190/0/68/0
Hypnosis
Skill Swap
Gyro Ball
Psychic

Dragonite @ Choice Band
Multiscale
Adamant
EVs:6/252/4/0/4/244
Dragon Claw
Fire Punch
Earthquake
Extreme Speed

Basic approach was to have Alakazam swap Magic Guard to Slaking in round one, removing Truant from him and also giving him HP-cost-free Life Orb and Double-Edge use, as well as making him immune to weather HP loss and poison. Alakazam would use Protect if he was able to survive through the Loafing round. If he was hit during round one, then he would usually swap out to Bronzong. Occasionally he would use Protect during round one, and then do skill swap with Slaking in round two before Slaking attacked to allow Slaking to do Earthquake in round one or avoid being Faked Out and killed.

Bronzong was there as the wall to take hits, my rebuttal to Trick Room teams, and to play clean up on anyone who got missed by a rock slide or something. His 0 EVs in speed helped him show the Trick Roomers what a really slow Pokemon is and put them to sleep with Hypnosis before they could attack. Occasionally he saved the team. The time he did a 1HKO with Gyro Ball on Terrakion was his crowning moment of glory!

Dragonite was my choice for a revenge killer to clean up whatever was left over in case Slaking fell. His resist to fighting helped him cover for Slaking's one weakness.

I lost in round 50 to Veteran Leron, with Latios, Regirock, Regice, and Landorus, although I didn't even get to Landorus.

Round 1 - Ala skill swap with Slaking, Latios Draco Meteor Slaking down to 20%, Slaking Double-Edge kill Latios, Regice Thunder Waves Alakazam

Round 2 - Regirock appears, Alakazam loafs, Slaking heals with Slack Off, only to be killed anyway by a Drain Punch and Focus Blast from Regice and Regirock

Round 3 - Alakazam tries to Protect, but is fully paralyzed, Dragonite hits everyone including Ala (No Protect) with Earthquake (Sorry, Ala), Regirock Curses, Regice Thunder Waves Dragonite

Round 4, Withdraw Ala, enter Bronzong, Regirock Rock slide, Dragonite flinches, Regice Thunders Bronzong.

Round 5 - Regice Blizards, but both avoid, Regirock Rock Slides and and faints out Dragonite, Bronzong flinches

Round 6 Alakazam replaces Dragonite, but is killed before he can attack since he's still paralyzed.

Bronzong last one alive to face Regice and Regirock. It isn't pretty, and Landorus stays in the back.

Thoughts? Comments?