CAP 2 - Part 12 - Movepool Submissions - Page 2

bugmaniacbob · Jan 15th, 2012, 6:02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

Placing Necturna in the same Egg Group as Smeargle has ZERO flavor to it. And it just doesn't make much sense to me.

The Ground egg group is a mis-match regardless.

More to the point, there's nothing stopping you from using two egg groups. Not sure what the problem is here.

srk1214 · Jan 15th, 2012, 7:20:37 PM

Isn't HSOWA more proof that Egg Groups are silly and illogical? I'd rather not use something so imperfect to be central to the entire concept of Necturna.

Also, BMB, my point was not to be inflammatory and completely discredit anyone who disagrees with me, unlike your earlier rant. All I wanted to do is point out the horrible hypocrisy of suggesting that Egg Groups are somehow more elegant than an in-game event/tutor.

If you are going to continue to insist that you are right, you're going to have to defend yourself logically. That is all.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 15th, 2012, 7:56:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

As tempting as it might be to respond immaturely to this whole debacle, I find I don't quite have the will to do so. I will however, just mention in passing that I was hoping to see some kind of discussion result from my post, rather than a faintly bizarre putdown as though I was attempting to stage some sort of armed coup d'etat. Given that there is typically no discussion of any sort in movepool threads, I hardly see the harm in a flavour discussion, though as I mentioned and RD picked up on, the very nature of it makes it a difficult topic for reasoned debate.

It's fine to have an opinion, and I am one to always endorse discussion topics (which is why I ended up not deleting your post), but you need to remember that what is posted here may have a lot of impact on others submitting movepools morally and stylistically, especially if it is the opinion of a respected community member. Saying such lines as "... there is a special circle of hell reserved for anybody who commits the horrible flavour faux pas of making Sketch a Tutor, Event, or any other such unfortunate category of move." has the potential to drastically change the way movepools are created and for no good reason other than "bugmaniacbob has a big stick up his ass about event moves". As the TL, I am not okay with that, and consider that I haven't infracted you for trolling as a result very generous of me. If you want to talk about whether an event move is cool or not, you must be respectful of other opinions in doing so. Your post was rife with offensive comments toward those using event moves with inadequate reasoning at every turn. Not berating you for it would be a terrible injustice as moderator. Let this be a very firm and equally on-the-record warning to you and others that might do the same thing that it is not okay to pull what you did.

Now let the 'debacle' drop; it's in your best interests.

---

As I said, I think it's fine however people want to include Sketch into the movepool. Be mindful that this 'discussion' is crazily subjective and potentially derailing of the discussion of successes and failures of the thus-far posted movepools. I would much rather discussion be put toward tempering the WIP movepools into better creations than talking back and forth about "well Skitty can mate with Wailord so your argument is invalid" in response to "well ground egg group makes no sense with a ghost so your argument is invalid".

I will be watching this closely.

**Deck Knight** · Jan 15th, 2012, 8:28:47 PM

I think it's time for another cool Final Submission.

Legend

Level-Up (14/10)

Flavorwise I thought it would be amusing to pull an "Elemental Fangs at L0" kind of move, only I switched the types around a bit. Thunder, Poison, and Super Fang are an esoteric bunch considered together, but I like the overall effect. Otherwise the movepool snakes up in power with physical Grass moves and special Ghost moves for the most part. Necturna is a physically biased Pokemon despite her looks, so her movepool largely reflects that.

Egg (10/6)

Egg Moves are a mixture of a few helpful Grass STABs and some Ghost flavor moves. I've chosen Plant/Ground since I'd rather not conjure up an Event from nowhere or a Tutor or anything else that would cause shenanigans. It is what it is. Prepare for Necturna on Wailord action.

TM/HM (30/11)

My TM choice has multiple flavor elements, only a few of which are competitive. The biggest move to note is Torment. Although Disable was voted as disallowed, Torment is not technically a VGM (despite use on TormenTran) and I thought it added a unique flavor and competitive niche. For canonical support, there is actually a Pokemon line that learns Torment but not Taunt: Munna/Musharna. I've also tried to make the movepool as close to real Pokemon movepools as possible, including every standard TM (which in BW is Toxic/Protect/Frustration/Return/Double Team/Facade/Rest/Attract/Round/Swagger/Substitute) and the vast majority of allowed Type-Moves for Ghosts and Grass types (e.g. Telekinesis/Will-O-Wisp, Flash/SolarBeam, etc.) When developing movepools I always ask myself "if I were looking this Pokemon up on Veekun or Serebii, would it look like a real Pokemon?" and if I can answer affirmatively within the limits, I'm done.

Analysis (54/27)

This Necturna movepool provides her with everything she needs to use offensive and support sets effectively. Stone Edge and Thunder Fang can be alternated on a few sets to get the drop on counters for the other move (ex. Belly Drum/Horn Leech/Shadow Sneak with Thunder Fang gets the drop on Skarmory but falls to Jirachi, Dnite, and Heatran) and both have imperfect accuracy. X-Scissor hits Hydreigon and provides acceptable coverage with Grass/Rock. Basically this Necturna movepool is based on fulfilling all varieties of Bulky Offense competently by giving a coverage move for Dark types to go with Grass STAB alone with Stone Edge / Thunder Fang for neutral attacks.

For support sets Gravity, Pain Split, Protect, Torment, Toxic/ Spikes, Substitute, Super Fang, and Will-O-Wisp provide a backbone that can either be augmented by Sketch (perhaps with a 50% Recovery move) or used alone according to your team's needs to weaken and frustrate opponents.

Finally, for options that work with Sketched Baton Pass you have Ingrain and Calm Mind, and if you're a real basketcase, Swagger + Psych Up I guess. Basically Necturna has at least one or two moves that can be combined effectively with any given Sketch.

Potential Sets

Notes on Natural Gift and Sketch:

An interesting experiment I think my movepool would illuminate is how Sketch would interact with Natural Gift. Up until Generation V, every Pokemon has had access to Natural Gift (bar a few gimmick/weakmons), and the only Pokemon with Sketch was Smeargle, whose attack is... shall we say, not up to snuff? In considering the concept "A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that." I think this would be an excellent chance to plumb information. Natural Gift is basically adding a one-time, one-attack coverage at the expense of your Item. It is perhaps the perfect concept to test out what Sketch can truly do.

Spork · Jan 15th, 2012, 8:46:11 PM

What berries are actually legal in Gen V? I haven't kept up to date. I mean, you couldn't use Salac Berry, for example, which has one of the more worthwhile natural gifts.

Not really sure if Natural Gift would really be interacting with Sketch very much.

Juicy · Jan 15th, 2012, 9:54:04 PM

Final Submission

Level Up Movepool

...

TM & HM

...

By Breeding

...

Summary

...

Justification

...

zyrefredric · Jan 16th, 2012, 3:59:54 AM

This is a Final Submission for Necturna's movepool. However, it's rather big as it is, so I'm looking for suggestions on how to make it smaller before I make it final.^^

Level-Up; Total Moves: 16; Total VGMs: 4

Necturna's grass-typing is reflected by Vine Whip/Magical Leaf and Power Whip/Leaf Storm, which are learned the earliest and latest respectively. Her skirt looks like a monster with a huge gaping mouth lined with fangs, so that justifies Bite and Crunch. The rest of her movepool is primarily based on flavor. Necturna is a shrine maiden, so her psychic and prophetic skills are shown through Meditate>Mind Reader>Extrasensory>Ominous Wind>Future Sight. After that, I initially planned on portraying her as a kind and lovable maiden (Charm, Flatter, Captivate, etc), but as I look at her, she really just looks creepy. Which explains the other half of her flavor movepool. To show that she is a sinister and dark figure, she gets Spite>Grudge>Hex>Curse>Pain Split.

TM/HM; Total Moves: 25; Total VGMs: 16

One thing you'd notice from this submission is the complete absence of Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Fighting, Ground, Bug and Dragon attacking moves. These allow Necturna to hit one or more of her counters super-effectively, so I decided not to include any of them. The TM list simply contains STAB moves, support moves, and the required TMs. It's still big though, and if this submission needs to be trimmed, this is where it will be done.

Ground/Human-Like Egg Group; Total Moves: 11; Total VGMs: 10

Any important moves that I can't fit into the level-up and TM moves goes here. That includes Sketch itself.

SUMMARY; 52 moves, 30 VGMs

Purple Cant · Jan 16th, 2012, 9:19:11 AM

I have no movepool to submit, but I just want to throw in that movepool submitters shouldn't be afraid of adding a move simply because the move's type corresponds with a type that hits a counter of Necturna's super-effectively. We already took pains in the attacking moves section to determine whether or not she should have the moves which are allowed; Ice-type moves, for example, which are allowed were allowed after a lot of consideration, and would not be allowed if we all thought it was too powerful.

Another thing I just want to harmlessly say is that I would like to see Gravity and Trick Room on some of these movepools. They wouldn't classify as VGMs from my perspective, and I honestly believe that, at least for the case of Gravity, if we gave that move a cool user of it like Necturna, then Gravity teams might have more of a chance of coming out of the "gimmick" section of team strategies.

(Forgive me for the multitude of commas in that previous paragraph. It makes my eyes hurt every time I reread it)

PS - Substitute counts as a VGM, imo. Just saying.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 16th, 2012, 8:32:18 PM

I have prepared a spreadsheet that compares the different movepools posted thus far. Note that some of the movepools are illegal due to the moves they include, and this is noted on the spreadsheet by purple entries in the disallowed move rows.

See it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...aZHJleFE#gid=0

srk1214 · Jan 16th, 2012, 10:06:12 PM

R_D, I have changed my mind on several moves since my original WIP, which obviously was a WIP. Looking through the spreadsheet, the only move I changed my mind on that actually was competitive enough to make the list was Perish Song, which I have now included. If you could please change Perish Song under my name to reflect it's inclusion in my movepool, that would be much appreciated.

Also, I am getting close to finalizing all of my reasoning. I will post a Final Submission soon.

Scoopapa · Jan 16th, 2012, 10:18:34 PM

Hey that's a really good idea, allowing for custom in-game events based on ribbons and such :D

***jumpluff**** · Jan 17th, 2012, 2:00:37 AM

Thank you for the spreadsheet! It's very convenient. Might I suggest that you freeze the top row though, RD, so when we scroll down we can still see people's names on top of everything? (Select Row 1 from the number column on the left side, View > Freeze rows)

Juicy · Jan 17th, 2012, 2:25:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

I have prepared a spreadsheet that compares the different movepools posted thus far. Note that some of the movepools are illegal due to the moves they include, and this is noted on the spreadsheet by purple entries in the disallowed move rows.

See it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...aZHJleFE#gid=0

Thank you RD, my movepool has been improved whilst confuse ray and teeter dance have been edited out.

@Purple Cant
Nice idea, it has been included.

@Capefeather.
Wow! I love the story to get sketch!

srk1214 · Jan 17th, 2012, 3:21:48 AM

FINAL SUBMISSION

Obviously, consider competitive aspects first and foremost. But please take the time to read my flavor-reasoning, as I put a lot of consideration into how I structured Necturna's movepool.

COMPETITIVE OVERVIEW

VGMs

29 VGMs - (26 competitive on Necturna leaving out Return/Frustration and Night Slash)

NCMs

Total 23 NCMs

52 Moves in total

This is overall much more bloated than I wanted this movepool to be. But I am fairly unwilling to remove flavor, and there are no competitive moves I feel comfortable dropping. Keep in mind that, by my count, at least 20 of these moves were either required or virtually required by Pokemon Standards and a few more have been required/suggested by R_D. Almost the entirety of the rest of my movepool serves to add as much flavor as I could. Still, I do wish I were not quite so close to the Max limit.

BREAKDOWN

Level-up moves

TMs/HMs

Egg moves - Grass group

And obviously since it wasn't in the Egg group...

Tutor/In-Game Event

COMPETITIVE MOVES' REASONING

Mostly Competitive with some Flavor

NONCOMPETITIVE MOVES' REASONING

Purely Flavor

These moves are either noncompetitive for reasons of being bad support moves, or simply outclassed offensive moves. I'll explain my reasoning for inclusion or exclusion of each move.

YES Crunch or Night Slash: Both serve as redundant with the STAB Shadow Claw. Therefore, neither is necessary. I elected to include Night Slash for flavor reasons that will be further discussed in the Overall Flavor section. Crunch was excluded therefore, as double-redundancy in Dark-type offensive moves seemed a waste of movepool space.

YES Night Shade: Night Shade is not entirely noncompetitive, as some would argue, but with 120 Base Attack, like Super Fang, I think most sets would opt for Power Whip over Night Shade anyways. Night Shade was therefore not excluded and was included due to flavor reasons.

YES Grasswhistle or Sing: I feel that a sleep move as inaccurate as roughly a coin-toss is hardly broken, especially when you consider 4MSS and the availability of sketching Spore. Still the possibility of Coil + Sleep move sets is intriguing. I elected to include Grasswhistle over Sing due to their move descriptions. Grasswhistle, learned by a wide variety of Grass-types, is said to lull targets into deep sleep, while Sing, learned mostly by cutemons, is described as a soothing lullaby.

NO Sunny Day: It's called NeCTURNa, based on Nocturnal. Not DIURNa. Even though I kept Solarbeam due to every fully evolved Grass type getting Solarbeam, Sunny Day is out because of one saving grace that does not learn Sunny Day. Abomasnow is a fully evolved Grass-type and Abomasnow does not receive Sunny Day, due to its Snow Warning Ability. This is similar enough to my belief that Necturna should not get Sunny Day, due to being based on the word Nocturnal. (Yes I know that Sunny Day is Clear Skies in Japanese. My response... we're not giving Necturna any information in Japanese, so I think we should stick to considering only how Necturna interacts with flavor in English.)

NO Hex: Hex is hardly necessary, as Shadow Ball is preferred on all offensive sets, and defensive sets will not be using either special Ghost move. Also, flavorwise, Hex makes Necturna feel like a Witch, which I don't think to be true. I see her more as a vengeful former lover, or something like that.

NO Ingrain: No. No. No. Please. I don't want to give Ingrain / Calm Mind / Substitute / Baton Pass to Baton Pass teams. I don't know if it would be good or not, but I really don't feel like finding out.

OVERALL FLAVOR

Explanation of Movepool as a whole

Level-up movepool:
Having two start moves is reasonable and typical if Necturna were to be the kind of Pokemon catchable in the early routes of the game. Interestingly, though, if Necturna were to be catchable only later in the game, (or hatched from an Egg made by Ditto-breeding by a mother with 4 moves,) then Necturna would not receive any Physical Grass STAB until level 49. Necturna is intended to be weak and "sweet" early on, but become more malevolent later, like a jilted girlfriend might be. Necturna learns Future Sight at Level 15, at which point she learns of her fate to be alone, presumably she thinks because her companion will leave her. She then learns Follow Me at Level 19 in order to lure her companion away from the public. Every move learned after that is used to preemptively attack her companion before she can be rejected. Little does she know that the Future she envisioned would not have happened if she had not made it come true. Perish Song, learned at Level 75, signifies the death of the last shreds of goodness left in Necturna's heart. Finally, at level 100, Necturna has gained all the experience she can, and she finally understands the Gravity of her situation. But it is too late for her to fix the past. As for total count, mine stands at 18 moves which was the very max I was willing to include in Level-up. That is quite large, tbh, and is probably too large, but this is what fits the flavor best.

TMs/HMs:
The most important thing for me to do here was to establish consistency with the game. I am a stickler for Flavor fitting what GF would actually be likely to do. Therefore, Toxic, Hidden Power, Protect, Frustration, Return, Attract, Solarbeam, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Facade, Rest, Double Team, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Substitute, and Round are all musts for inclusion in my books. And I will have a very hard time voting for any movepool that does not include all of these moves. Yes we are operating with a cap on total number of moves, but these all should make every list, even above extraneous personal flavor inclusions if necessary. Beyond those, Calm Mind, Energy Ball, Will-O-Wisp, Grass Knot, and Strength all feel like fairly obvious inclusions, that I think all movepools should contain, but I could look past if they were not. The only personal flavor TMs/HMs I've included are Swagger and Torment. I think that Necturna's design has lots of swag, and I can't imagine someone reading over my description of the Level-up movepool and disagreeing with my inclusion of Torment.

Egg Moves:
I placed Necturna in the Grass Egg Group, where I think she would actually be placed by GF. On a pure flavor level, Necturna belongs in that Egg Group, where she breeds with her OBVIOUS relative Carnivine (a la Luvdisc and Alomomola or Tauros and Bouffalant.) I could have placed Necturna in both the Grass Group and the Field Group, in order to get Sketch by Egg Move and avoid all illegalities, but that didn't feel right to me as the Field Group is mostly mammalian and there is not a single Ghost-type in the entire group. True, this caused some difficulty in Egg Move combinations, but it also accomplished more than making things tricky. It actually forced me to learn about breeding and egg groups, a subject I found confusing. Through the Egg Moves, I have complemented Necturna's movepool with a lot of flavor (Bite, Captivate, Dream Eater, Spite,) and some potentially competitive moves (Stone Edge, Toxic Spikes, Switcheroo, Gravity, Grasswhistle, Extrasensory, Curse.) Despite the difficulties of breeding outside of the Field group, Necturna still only has two combinations that appear legal at first sight that are in fact illegal, neither of which is competitively viable anyway. EDIT: Toxic Spikes has been added to the Egg Movepool, since that is the most logical method for Necturna to get T-Spikes. Stone Edge was made an Egg Move too, since no Female-only Pokemon has ever been able to learn Stone Edge, so breeding seemed to be the least intrusive method to give Necturna Stone Edge.

General Flavor:
We are working with a CAP named Necturna. Based on the word Nocturnal. Therefore I found it important to include any night-based move I could find (with the exception of Night Daze, a Zoroark Exclusive.) That amounted to Night Shade, Night Slash, and Moonlight. But one piece of information that people may not know is that it could also be based on a Nocturne, which is "a short composition of a romantic or dreamy character suggestive of night, typically for piano," or, in short, music. Therefore aside from the required Round, I tried to include several other sound-based moves. Screech, Grasswhistle, and especially Perish Song fit that flavor perfectly. Additional flavor considerations went to moves that fit a female-only Pokemon well, namely Attract, Captivate, and Sweet Scent. (and to a lesser degree Spite, don't hate me female Smogonites!) Strength was included as having a Pokemon with 120 Base Attack that doesn't learn Strength seemed odd to me. The abilities Forewarn and Telepathy dictated Calm Mind, Captivate, Dream Eater, Extrasensory and Future Sight. Finally, the remainder of the flavor was based on the physical depiction of Necturna in the design. The teeth-stitch things lent themselves to Bite and Super Fang, the fake eyes to Leer and Scary Face, etc.

SKETCH SCENARIO:
As I said above, at night, go to the First Floor of the Relic Castle with a Necturna with Night Shade in your party.
The painter is facing the wall with only one blank space in between. His focus is steely. You cannot try to talk to him. You must deliberately walk between him and the wall carvings he is painting. If you do not have a Necturna with Night Shade in your party, he will simply yell at you, "Watch where you're walking! I'm painting here!" If you do have a Necturna with Night Shade in your party, he will instead ask you, "Are you interested in what I'm painting?" You will be prompted to answer Yes or No. If you answer No, he will then tell you, "Then kindly leave me alone to my painting." If you answer Yes, he will happily say, "Good. Very few youngsters are interested in art. Do you know how to paint?" You will be prompted to answer Yes or No. If you answer Yes, he will say, "Oh. Well then I guess there's nothing for me to teach you." If you answer No, he will ask you, "Would you like to learn?" You will be prompted to answer Yes or No. If you answer No, he will disgustedly ask you, "How can you be interested in art but not want to learn?! Kids! grumble..." If you answer Yes, he will say, "Great! Here's the trick. Have your Pokemon sketch everything for you. Then all you have to do is color it in. I actually don't have any artistic talent! My Smeargle is the real artist. Do you have any Pokemon that can learn to Sketch?" Displays your Pokemon with "Not Able" for all other Pokemon and "Able" for Smeargle (if you have one) and Necturna, which you have to have. If you select Smeargle, he will say, "But you've been lying! Smeargle already knows how to Sketch." (even if it doesn't have Sketch itself at that moment) If you select Necturna, he will say, "Perfect, your Necturna looks like she has a lot of natural artistic ability!" Goes to the "which move should be forgotten sequence." The painter says, "Here. Take this Ribbon too. This ribbon will show everyone just how much you love your Necturna." Attaches Classic Ribbon, which prevents trading. "If you actually want to learn how to paint, you should go talk to Burgh in Castelia city. I heard he actually paints without the help of a Pokemon Sketcher!"
If you try to come back and get the same Necturna taught Sketch, (after going through the same steps above up until the Select Pokemon screen with already-learned-sketch Necturna still listed as Able,) he will say, "But I've already taught your Necturna Sketch! I remember giving her that Ribbon!" Other Necturna will still be tutorable.

EXTRAS

Full Alphabetical List

Classifications

Potential Sets

Rising_Dusk · Jan 17th, 2012, 3:41:38 AM

Ah, good call with the row freezing, pluff. I had forgotten that google docs could do that, and have done so. Cheers.

I'll update the spreadsheet with srk's update tomorrow morning, and will also post some information about the sort of moves I expect to see on movepools to give authors some more direction should they need more.

**Deck Knight** · Jan 17th, 2012, 5:15:13 AM

Minor notes on my movepool: I swapped out Spite for Ingrain, so it has one more VGM than previous, and the same number of total moves. Ingrain is one of the moves that makes Baton Pass a uniquely useful Sketch (there are other CM passers), and I decided to go with it.

**capefeather** · Jan 17th, 2012, 10:21:33 AM

Just a note: Perish Song is not in my movepool (though it was). I know part of the mistake is my fault for not summarizing my competitive moves in a list, so I'm sorry about that, but in any case...

eriXtone · Jan 17th, 2012, 12:25:39 PM

Amateur Movepool Submission, made largely to convey my idea for learning Sketch.

VGM: *

Vision

Total Moves: 38 / VGM: 27

Level Up

Egg (Grass/Ground)

TM/HM

Rising_Dusk · Jan 17th, 2012, 12:39:03 PM

I had no idea how difficult it would be to update the spreadsheet once made, haha. If you make any changes to your submissions, please be sure to post a bump to this thread to simultaneously inform others and myself of what needs to be changed on the spreadsheet.

Juicy · Jan 17th, 2012, 1:14:02 PM

ha! :)
It's a brilliant idea though.

My edits are:
The inclusion of super fang, poison fang, energy ball and gravity.
The striking of astonish and confuse ray.

Hope I helped.

Rising_Dusk · Jan 17th, 2012, 1:29:36 PM

P.S. eriXtone, your movepool is automatically illegal because you made Sketch a level-up move. I specifically said that I wasn't allowing that because it requires we do weird alterations to the move re-learner. (fwiw, your explanation would simultaneously exclude Pokemon like Chandelure from using the re-learner)

I'm okay with the way you described getting it, even though your actual movepool disagrees (Why is that, by the way? Maybe you just mislabeled it a level-up move?). It's okay to do the "Pikachu learns Volt Tackle" method since technically it is then a special egg move and not a level-up move, and thus is excluded from the move re-learner.

P.S. I updated the spreadsheet and included a link to it in the OP.

P.P.S. I am pretty sure that this will be open for another 2 days or so even though I said it'd initially only be open for 3 days. This is because there's still active development going on and in a good and productive way, so it deserves more time.

eriXtone · Jan 17th, 2012, 1:43:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

P.S. eriXtone, your movepool is automatically illegal because you made Sketch a level-up move. I specifically said that I wasn't allowing that because it requires we do weird alterations to the move re-learner. (fwiw, your explanation would simultaneously exclude Pokemon like Chandelure from using the re-learner)

I'm okay with the way you described getting it, even though your actual movepool disagrees (Why is that, by the way? Maybe you just mislabeled it a level-up move?). It's okay to do the "Pikachu learns Volt Tackle" method since technically it is then a special egg move and not a level-up move, and thus is excluded from the move re-learner.

P.S. I updated the spreadsheet and included a link to it in the OP.

I have updated my movepool submission. Nothing has really changed, just where I listed the move, since that did violate your terms. In my defense, I was thinking of it as similar to the Pichu you mentioned - fully aware of the level-up stipulation - just listed it in the wrong place. Sorry about that.

srk1214 · Jan 17th, 2012, 1:47:18 PM

As I mentioned above, I have decided to include Perish Song. All other changes to my original WIP are pure flavor that do not affect the spreadsheet.

It stinks that the spreadsheet is tricky to edit, but nevertheless, please update it to reflect my inclusion of Perish Song.

**Korski** · Jan 17th, 2012, 3:31:05 PM

Alright I think I'm comfortable enough to make a Final Submission. I've added Pain Split to the movepool as an Egg move, which is the only spreadsheet-worthy update. Mostly I've edited in more reasoning to each of the sections to better explain what I'm trying to achieve with the movepool. I expect only minor updates, if anything, between now and when when Dusk chooses his slate.

**capefeather** · Jan 17th, 2012, 4:40:01 PM

I marked my submission as final a while ago, but I've just been cleaning up some stuff. No more trolly flavour :P I'm not sure I could really even explain some of the stuff (especially Explosion lol) and then I had a class, so...

I apologize to anyone who got worried because I kept making major changes to the flavour.

Jan 15th, 2012, 8:28:47 PM	#29
Deck Knight Jigen Makkoto Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,887 Massachusetts	I think it's time for another cool Final Submission. Legend * = Competitive VGM () = Repeat Competitive VGM ? = Non-Competitive/Flavor VGM (?) = Repeat Non-Competitive/Flavor VGM) Totals for VGM will include both Competitive and Non-Competitve VGMs. Level-Up (14/10)* Level-Up: 0 Thunder Fang * 0 Poison Fang 0 Super Fang * 0 Leer 0 Vine Whip 7 Ominous Wind 13 Shadow Sneak * 19 Toxic Spikes * 19 Will-O-Wisp * 25 Hex * 31 Horn Leech * 40 Pain Split * 50 Shadow Ball * 60 Power Whip * Moves: 14 VGM: 10 Flavorwise I thought it would be amusing to pull an "Elemental Fangs at L0" kind of move, only I switched the types around a bit. Thunder, Poison, and Super Fang are an esoteric bunch considered together, but I like the overall effect. Otherwise the movepool snakes up in power with physical Grass moves and special Ghost moves for the most part. Necturna is a physically biased Pokemon despite her looks, so her movepool largely reflects that. Egg (10/6) Egg: Egg Group: Plant / Ground Curse Giga Drain * Gravity * Future Sight Ingrain * Leaf Blade * Leaf Storm * Natural Gift Nightmare Sketch * Moves: 10 VGM: 6 Egg Moves are a mixture of a few helpful Grass STABs and some Ghost flavor moves. I've chosen Plant/Ground since I'd rather not conjure up an Event from nowhere or a Tutor or anything else that would cause shenanigans. It is what it is. Prepare for Necturna on Wailord action. TM/HM (30/11) TM: 04 Calm Mind * 06 Toxic * 10 Hidden Power * 11 Sunny Day 15 Hyper Beam 17 Protect * 19 Telekinesis 21 Frustration ? 22 SolarBeam 27 Return (?) 29 Psychic * 30 Shadow Ball () 32 Double Team 41 Torment 42 Façade ? 44 Rest 45 Attract 46 Thief 48 Round 53 Energy Ball * 61 Will-O-Wisp () 65 Shadow Claw 66 Payback ? 68 Giga Impact 70 Flash 71 Stone Edge * 77 Psych Up 85 Dream Eater 86 Grass Knot * 87 Swagger 90 Substitute * H1 Cut Moves: 32 (2 repeats) [30] VGM: 17 (3 repeats) [14] {4 NC VGMs} My TM choice has multiple flavor elements, only a few of which are competitive. The biggest move to note is Torment. Although Disable was voted as disallowed, Torment is not technically a VGM (despite use on TormenTran) and I thought it added a unique flavor and competitive niche. For canonical support, there is actually a Pokemon line that learns Torment but not Taunt: Munna/Musharna. I've also tried to make the movepool as close to real Pokemon movepools as possible, including every standard TM (which in BW is Toxic/Protect/Frustration/Return/Double Team/Facade/Rest/Attract/Round/Swagger/Substitute) and the vast majority of allowed Type-Moves for Ghosts and Grass types (e.g. Telekinesis/Will-O-Wisp, Flash/SolarBeam, etc.) When developing movepools I always ask myself "if I were looking this Pokemon up on Veekun or Serebii, would it look like a real Pokemon?" and if I can answer affirmatively within the limits, I'm done. Analysis (54/27) Coverage Analysis: Physical: Horn Leech / Leaf Blade / Power Whip Shadow Sneak / Shadow Claw Stone Edge Thunder Fang Natural Gift (w Berry) Payback Poison Fang Special: Grass Knot / Giga Drain / Energy Ball / SolarBeam / Leaf Storm Hex / Ominous Wind / Shadow Ball Psychic / Dream Eater Hidden Power Notable Support: Calm Mind Gravity Ingrain Pain Split Protect Torment Toxic Toxic Spikes Substitute Sunny Day Super Fang Will-O-Wisp Recovery Attacks: Giga Drain Horn Leech Ingrain Pain Split Final Count: Total Moves: 54 Total VGM: 30 [27] {3 NC VGMs} This Necturna movepool provides her with everything she needs to use offensive and support sets effectively. Stone Edge and Thunder Fang can be alternated on a few sets to get the drop on counters for the other move (ex. Belly Drum/Horn Leech/Shadow Sneak with Thunder Fang gets the drop on Skarmory but falls to Jirachi, Dnite, and Heatran) and both have imperfect accuracy. X-Scissor hits Hydreigon and provides acceptable coverage with Grass/Rock. Basically this Necturna movepool is based on fulfilling all varieties of Bulky Offense competently by giving a coverage move for Dark types to go with Grass STAB alone with Stone Edge / Thunder Fang for neutral attacks. For support sets Gravity, Pain Split, Protect, Torment, Toxic/ Spikes, Substitute, Super Fang, and Will-O-Wisp provide a backbone that can either be augmented by Sketch (perhaps with a 50% Recovery move) or used alone according to your team's needs to weaken and frustrate opponents. Finally, for options that work with Sketched Baton Pass you have Ingrain and Calm Mind, and if you're a real basketcase, Swagger + Psych Up I guess. Basically Necturna has at least one or two moves that can be combined effectively with any given Sketch. Potential Sets Belly Drum: Belly Drum Horn Leech Shadow Sneak Stone Edge / Thunder Fang Shift Gear: Shift Gear Leaf Blade Stone Edge Shadow Claw Coil: Coil Power Whip Stone Edge Horn Leech / Thunder Fang / Will-O-Wisp Tail Glow: Tail Glow Leaf Storm / Energy Ball Shadow Ball Hidden Power Fighting Quiver Dance: Quiver Dance Giga Drain Shadow Ball Hidden Power Fighting Toxic Spikes: Toxic Spikes Substitute / Spore (Sketch) Horn Leech Shadow Claw Sub/Torment: Substitute Torment Horn Leech Shadow Force (Sketch) Gravity: Gravity Power Whip Stone Edge Sacred Fire / Magma Storm (Sketch) Support: Substitute Super Fang Will-O-Wisp Dragon Tail (Sketch) Baton Pass: Baton Pass Substitute / Calm Mind Ingrain Ominous Wind Stored Power: Stored Power Calm Mind Ominous Wind Giga Drain Sleep Gimmick: Spore (Sketch) Dream Eater Nightmare Hex Notes on Natural Gift and Sketch: An interesting experiment I think my movepool would illuminate is how Sketch would interact with Natural Gift. Up until Generation V, every Pokemon has had access to Natural Gift (bar a few gimmick/weakmons), and the only Pokemon with Sketch was Smeargle, whose attack is... shall we say, not up to snuff? In considering the concept "A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that." I think this would be an excellent chance to plumb information. Natural Gift is basically adding a one-time, one-attack coverage at the expense of your Item. It is perhaps the perfect concept to test out what Sketch can truly do. __________________ [17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me? [17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner [17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol [17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either [17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages [17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod. [17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal. [17:57] <Birkal> >:\| Last edited by Deck Knight; Jan 20th, 2012 at 4:52:27 PM.

Jan 15th, 2012, 8:46:11 PM	#30
Spork Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 383 on the road	What berries are actually legal in Gen V? I haven't kept up to date. I mean, you couldn't use Salac Berry, for example, which has one of the more worthwhile natural gifts. Not really sure if Natural Gift would really be interacting with Sketch very much. __________________ as if God himself spat like a cornered rat

Jan 16th, 2012, 3:59:54 AM	#32
zyrefredric Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 527 Mandaue City, Philippines	made a few edits here and there...^^ This is a Final Submission for Necturna's movepool. However, it's rather big as it is, so I'm looking for suggestions on how to make it smaller before I make it final.^^ Level-Up; Total Moves: 16; Total VGMs: 4 -- Vine Whip -- Magical Leaf 05 Bite 08 Spite 15 Meditate 18 Grudge 25 Mind Reader 28 Hex 35 Extrasensory 38 Curse 45 Ominous Wind 48 Pain Split 55 Future Sight 58 Crunch 65 Power Whip 65 Leaf Storm Necturna's grass-typing is reflected by Vine Whip/Magical Leaf and Power Whip/Leaf Storm, which are learned the earliest and latest respectively. Her skirt looks like a monster with a huge gaping mouth lined with fangs, so that justifies Bite and Crunch. The rest of her movepool is primarily based on flavor. Necturna is a shrine maiden, so her psychic and prophetic skills are shown through Meditate>Mind Reader>Extrasensory>Ominous Wind>Future Sight. After that, I initially planned on portraying her as a kind and lovable maiden (Charm, Flatter, Captivate, etc), but as I look at her, she really just looks creepy. Which explains the other half of her flavor movepool. To show that she is a sinister and dark figure, she gets Spite>Grudge>Hex>Curse>Pain Split. TM/HM; Total Moves: 25; Total VGMs: 16 TM 04 - Calm Mind TM 06 - Toxic TM 10 - Hidden Power TM 12 - Taunt TM 15 - Hyper Beam TM 17 - Protect TM 21 - Frustration TM 22 - SolarBeam TM 27 - Return (same as Frustration) TM 30 - Shadow Ball TM 32 - Double Team TM 42 - Facade TM 44 - Rest TM 45 - Attract TM 48 - Round TM 53 - Energy Ball TM 61 - Will-O-Wisp TM 65 - Shadow Claw TM 68 - Giga Impact TM 71 - Stone Edge TM 83 - Work Up TM 85 - Dream Eater TM 87 - Swagger TM 90 - Substitute TM 92 - Trick Room One thing you'd notice from this submission is the complete absence of Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Fighting, Ground, Bug and Dragon attacking moves. These allow Necturna to hit one or more of her counters super-effectively, so I decided not to include any of them. The TM list simply contains STAB moves, support moves, and the required TMs. It's still big though, and if this submission needs to be trimmed, this is where it will be done. Ground/Human-Like Egg Group; Total Moves: 11; Total VGMs: 10 Giga Drain Grass Whistle Gravity Horn Leech Ingrain Leaf Blade Night Shade Perish Song Shadow Sneak Sketch Toxic Spikes Any important moves that I can't fit into the level-up and TM moves goes here. That includes Sketch itself. SUMMARY; 52 moves, 30 VGMs Physical Attack Moves Power Whip Leaf Blade Horn Leech Shadow Claw Shadow Sneak Stone Edge Frustration Crunch Special Attack Moves Leaf Storm Energy Ball Giga Drain Shadow Ball Night Shade Hidden Power Status/Support Moves Toxic Will-o-Wisp Grass Whistle Calm Mind Work Up Ingrain Substitute Protect Taunt Toxic Spikes Gravity Trick Room Pain Split Perish Song __________________ Want to PLAY a brand new metagame? Visit this Equal BST Metagame thread and tell us what you think. Ever tried A Monotype Take on the OU Metagame? Visit the thread and share your experience. Last edited by zyrefredric; Jan 18th, 2012 at 12:28:37 AM.

Jan 16th, 2012, 9:19:11 AM	#33
Purple Cant Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 51 Florida	I have no movepool to submit, but I just want to throw in that movepool submitters shouldn't be afraid of adding a move simply because the move's type corresponds with a type that hits a counter of Necturna's super-effectively. We already took pains in the attacking moves section to determine whether or not she should have the moves which are allowed; Ice-type moves, for example, which are allowed were allowed after a lot of consideration, and would not be allowed if we all thought it was too powerful. Another thing I just want to harmlessly say is that I would like to see Gravity and Trick Room on some of these movepools. They wouldn't classify as VGMs from my perspective, and I honestly believe that, at least for the case of Gravity, if we gave that move a cool user of it like Necturna, then Gravity teams might have more of a chance of coming out of the "gimmick" section of team strategies. (Forgive me for the multitude of commas in that previous paragraph. It makes my eyes hurt every time I reread it) PS - Substitute counts as a VGM, imo. Just saying. __________________ Stymie - a situation or problem presenting such difficulties as to discourage or defeat any attempt to deal with or resolve it. Last edited by Purple Cant; Jan 16th, 2012 at 9:30:50 AM.

Jan 16th, 2012, 10:18:34 PM	#36
Scoopapa Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 923	Hey that's a really good idea, allowing for custom in-game events based on ribbons and such :D __________________ List of Topic Leader Posts from early CAP4 discussion threads Read these if you haven't yet and are working on CAP4

Jan 15th, 2012, 7:20:37 PM	#27
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 824	Isn't HSOWA more proof that Egg Groups are silly and illogical? I'd rather not use something so imperfect to be central to the entire concept of Necturna. Also, BMB, my point was not to be inflammatory and completely discredit anyone who disagrees with me, unlike your earlier rant. All I wanted to do is point out the horrible hypocrisy of suggesting that Egg Groups are somehow more elegant than an in-game event/tutor. If you are going to continue to insist that you are right, you're going to have to defend yourself logically. That is all.

Jan 16th, 2012, 8:32:18 PM	#34
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	I have prepared a spreadsheet that compares the different movepools posted thus far. Note that some of the movepools are illegal due to the moves they include, and this is noted on the spreadsheet by purple entries in the disallowed move rows. See it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...aZHJleFE#gid=0

Jan 16th, 2012, 10:06:12 PM	#35
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 824	R_D, I have changed my mind on several moves since my original WIP, which obviously was a WIP. Looking through the spreadsheet, the only move I changed my mind on that actually was competitive enough to make the list was Perish Song, which I have now included. If you could please change Perish Song under my name to reflect it's inclusion in my movepool, that would be much appreciated. Also, I am getting close to finalizing all of my reasoning. I will post a Final Submission soon.

Jan 17th, 2012, 2:00:37 AM	#37
*jumpluff とびだせ・どうぶつの森 Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,437 Location: Australia Mentor	Thank you for the spreadsheet! It's very convenient. Might I suggest that you freeze the top row though, RD, so when we scroll down we can still see people's names on top of everything? (Select Row 1 from the number column on the left side, View > Freeze rows) __________________

Jan 17th, 2012, 3:41:38 AM	#40
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	Ah, good call with the row freezing, pluff. I had forgotten that google docs could do that, and have done so. Cheers. I'll update the spreadsheet with srk's update tomorrow morning, and will also post some information about the sort of moves I expect to see on movepools to give authors some more direction should they need more.

Jan 17th, 2012, 5:15:13 AM	#41
Deck Knight Jigen Makkoto Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,887 Massachusetts	Minor notes on my movepool: I swapped out Spite for Ingrain, so it has one more VGM than previous, and the same number of total moves. Ingrain is one of the moves that makes Baton Pass a uniquely useful Sketch (there are other CM passers), and I decided to go with it. __________________ [17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me? [17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner [17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol [17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either [17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages [17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod. [17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal. [17:57] <Birkal> >:\|

Jan 17th, 2012, 10:21:33 AM	#42
capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010	Just a note: Perish Song is not in my movepool (though it was). I know part of the mistake is my fault for not summarizing my competitive moves in a list, so I'm sorry about that, but in any case... __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason

Jan 17th, 2012, 12:25:39 PM	#43
eriXtone Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 47 Massachusetts	Amateur Movepool Submission, made largely to convey my idea for learning Sketch. VGM: * Vision Necturna is born with Sketch if hatched at night in the Celestial Tower. Sketch cannot be obtained via any other method, barring an Event. If hatched with Sketch, starting set will always consist of Sketch over Absorb. Sketch takes precedent over all other inherited moves. Total Moves: 38 / VGM: 27 Level Up Start: Toxic Spikes* Start: Ingrain* Start: Shadow Sneak* 9: Night Shade* 13: Ominous Wind 17: Perish Song* 26: Leaf Blade* 34: Psybeam 48: Moonlight* 55: Spite 63: Giga Drain* 66: Power Whip* Egg (Grass/Ground) Gravity* Imprison Pursuit* Worry Seed Captivate Switcheroo* Sketch* Seed Bomb* TM/HM TM04 Calm Mind* TM06 Toxic* TM10 Hidden Power* TM11 Sunny Day TM15 Hyper Beam TM17 Protect* TM19 Telekinesis TM21 Frustration* TM22 Solarbeam TM30 Shadow Ball* TM32 Double Team TM44 Rest* TM45 Attract TM53 Energy Ball* TM61 Will-O-Wisp* TM65 Shadow Claw* TM71 Stone Edge* TM86 Grass Knot* TM90 Substitute* Last edited by eriXtone; Jan 18th, 2012 at 9:57:02 AM.

Jan 17th, 2012, 12:39:03 PM	#44
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	I had no idea how difficult it would be to update the spreadsheet once made, haha. If you make any changes to your submissions, please be sure to post a bump to this thread to simultaneously inform others and myself of what needs to be changed on the spreadsheet.

Jan 17th, 2012, 1:14:02 PM	#45
Juicy Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 123 Staffordshire	ha! :) It's a brilliant idea though. My edits are: The inclusion of super fang, poison fang, energy ball and gravity. The striking of astonish and confuse ray. Hope I helped.

Jan 17th, 2012, 1:29:36 PM	#46
Rising_Dusk Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,742	P.S. eriXtone, your movepool is automatically illegal because you made Sketch a level-up move. I specifically said that I wasn't allowing that because it requires we do weird alterations to the move re-learner. (fwiw, your explanation would simultaneously exclude Pokemon like Chandelure from using the re-learner) I'm okay with the way you described getting it, even though your actual movepool disagrees (Why is that, by the way? Maybe you just mislabeled it a level-up move?). It's okay to do the "Pikachu learns Volt Tackle" method since technically it is then a special egg move and not a level-up move, and thus is excluded from the move re-learner. P.S. I updated the spreadsheet and included a link to it in the OP. P.P.S. I am pretty sure that this will be open for another 2 days or so even though I said it'd initially only be open for 3 days. This is because there's still active development going on and in a good and productive way, so it deserves more time. Last edited by Rising_Dusk; Jan 17th, 2012 at 1:40:55 PM.

Jan 17th, 2012, 1:47:18 PM	#48
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 824	As I mentioned above, I have decided to include Perish Song. All other changes to my original WIP are pure flavor that do not affect the spreadsheet. It stinks that the spreadsheet is tricky to edit, but nevertheless, please update it to reflect my inclusion of Perish Song.

Jan 17th, 2012, 3:31:05 PM	#49
Korski Distilled, 80 proof Moderator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,004 Minneapolis	Alright I think I'm comfortable enough to make a Final Submission. I've added Pain Split to the movepool as an Egg move, which is the only spreadsheet-worthy update. Mostly I've edited in more reasoning to each of the sections to better explain what I'm trying to achieve with the movepool. I expect only minor updates, if anything, between now and when when Dusk chooses his slate. __________________ "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon

Jan 17th, 2012, 4:40:01 PM	#50
capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010	I marked my submission as final a while ago, but I've just been cleaning up some stuff. No more trolly flavour :P I'm not sure I could really even explain some of the stuff (especially Explosion lol) and then I had a class, so... I apologize to anyone who got worried because I kept making major changes to the flavour. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason