Dream World General Metagame Discussion - Page 2

sheniqua · Jan 25th, 2012, 6:38:49 PM

Just wondering, will there ever be a DreamWorld UU or RU or something like that?

Matthew · Jan 25th, 2012, 6:47:50 PM

Probably not, dw is a tier all to itself that is branched away from OU. I doubt it'd receive enough support for lower tiers unless it was just as active as OU is. dw ubers, however, is a thing.

MegaKick · Jan 25th, 2012, 6:55:03 PM

honestly i thought that chandelure would be at it's best with sub-calm mind setting up on walls, with everything overpreparing for that set so much i think scarfchandelure is just so easy to use and pairs well with things like garchomp, serperior, manaphy and just about any boosting sweeper. I'm not calling for a ban but I definitely think it should be looked at.
While i still say all weather in general should be banned, sand veil at the very least needs to be banned. The banning of brightpowder actually makes subchomp worse, as garchomp has a higher chance of dodging an attack with lefties than brightpowder because it can make more subs. I've faced a few rough skin chomps and it's still really awesome and tough to face, just not in a make you kill yourself way.

@below: or you could use leaf blase virizion which can actually switchin, or you know, any pokemon that doesnt suck.

erisia · Jan 25th, 2012, 7:31:32 PM

For everyone looking for a way to beat CM Manaphy, CB Volt Tackle Raichu OHKOs even 252 HP variants (and is very likely to OHKO physically bulky sets with a round of Spikes) whilst outspeeding 100% of the time. *trollface*

tomtom5858 · Jan 25th, 2012, 8:37:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat erisiascape

For everyone looking for a way to beat CM Manaphy, CB Volt Tackle Raichu OHKOs even 252 HP variants (and is very likely to OHKO physically bulky sets with a round of Spikes) whilst outspeeding 100% of the time. *trollface*

I think I love you.

Steamroll · Jan 25th, 2012, 9:28:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat erisiascape

For everyone looking for a way to beat CM Manaphy, CB Volt Tackle Raichu OHKOs even 252 HP variants (and is very likely to OHKO physically bulky sets with a round of Spikes) whilst outspeeding 100% of the time. *trollface*

Can Raichu do anything else besides beat CM manaphy? I feel it devotes too much attention to stopping Manaphy to where it puts more pressure on the rest of the team by not being able to do much besides stop one mon.

**Raseri** · Jan 26th, 2012, 3:41:37 AM

A wellplayed Chandelure(one that does not switch in every other turn) is the most threatening mon in the game in my mind, clearly incredible at picking off team members one at a time. People rely to heavily on it though, don't make it youre only way to stop things...

Also what do you think of Metagross? I've been using one on a rain team and its done really well, really cool typing and respectable special bulk (80/90) allow it to sponge hits from Latias with ease, he is also one of the best tyranitar switch ins right now and forces the monster to flee, giving you free rocks or an earthquake on a poorly played Chandelure. It's far surpassed my expectations and I might try it out in regular OU now

Oh and in the rain it survives scarf chandelures overheat easily. Just sayin

erisia · Jan 26th, 2012, 5:04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Steamroll

Can Raichu do anything else besides beat CM manaphy? I feel it devotes too much attention to stopping Manaphy to where it puts more pressure on the rest of the team by not being able to do much besides stop one mon.

Well no, but then I wasn't being serious :p Although now you mention it, it can come in on Thunder Waves and gain a +1 Volt Switch to abuse alongside Volt Tackle. Shame about Zapdos being #14, though :p

shrang · Jan 26th, 2012, 6:37:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat erisiascape

For everyone looking for a way to beat CM Manaphy, CB Volt Tackle Raichu OHKOs even 252 HP variants (and is very likely to OHKO physically bulky sets with a round of Spikes) whilst outspeeding 100% of the time. *trollface*

How are you outspeeding 100% of the time? CM Manaphy normally runs max Speed (at least I do), which means Raichu is speed-tieing at best. It is also frail enough to get OHKOed by a +1 Scald in the rain.

**Taylor** · Jan 26th, 2012, 7:21:12 AM

The reason Chandelure isn't killing the tier, so to speak, is because it requires the right to use Choice Scarf in order to revenge kill threats it would otherwise fall short of. Sub versions can set up and OHKO (bonus if they cannot break your Substitute) but its speed doesn't get you "far" before you're either forced to let it die, or save it for whatever else you wish to expunge.

The quicker you bait the Pokemon who prevents "x" from sweeping, the easier it is to mop up; and it is done remarkably well by "the ghost of only fools and horses' chandelier".

Example: Blaziken's currently getting walled by Slowbro without Shadow Claw, so Chandelure's Shadow Tag is requisite for your ultimate goal.

Tiffanyy · Jan 26th, 2012, 7:21:29 AM

Raikou stops most every Manaphy, and keldeo. Just thought I'd put that out there.

Also yeah what shrang said, just stick to a faster Electric type.

ssbbm · Jan 26th, 2012, 11:36:36 PM

ok fuck garchomp i mean it's pretty stupid when my opponents use their garchomp as a check for my excadrill and it WORKS because apparently i'll always miss..

but the best team imo so far is sand offense because it's SO easy to use and it smashes through everything so easily

so far i'm using

ttar/excadrill/chandelure/skarmory/dragonite/serperior and it's pretty insane. it basically batters through the entire opposing team because chandelure is so goddamn good and excadrill basically makes it so that if your opponent's breloom / skarmory / etc is dead then GG

blaziken is also pretty annoying to play against as well: taking it down is worth like 2 pokes easily

MegaKick · Jan 27th, 2012, 1:01:32 AM

(using 1337 stats here)
| 47 | Azumarill | 38 | 2.021% | 21 | 1.407% |

Why is this so low? I know i haven't been laddering a lot lately but come on azumarill is just so epic, the only reason i can think of it being so low is jellicent being #10 (gogo toxic azumarill?) but even so the power to revenge so much and threaten everything is invaluable. Blaziken, shanderra, excadrill, landorus, weakened thundurus, all kinds of things scizor can't.

bluemon · Jan 27th, 2012, 1:28:16 AM

How come nobody is talking about Genesect?

It's one of the best scouters, and it is the ultimate poke in a volt turn team.

He's like landorus+scizor+rotom

**Taylor** · Jan 27th, 2012, 8:38:49 AM

Air Balloon Blaziken with Protect sweeps teams for fun, especially if you're running Chandelure. But priority attacks cut its sweep short and the fact U-turn is very prominent in this metagame to gather momentum, Blaziken struggles to Swords Dance in a clustered tier full of powerhouses.

HardCore · Jan 27th, 2012, 7:31:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

Air Balloon Blaziken with Protect sweeps teams for fun, especially if you're running Chandelure. But priority attacks cut its sweep short and the fact U-turn is very prominent in this metagame to gather momentum, Blaziken struggles to Swords Dance in a clustered tier full of powerhouses.

I have recently gotten swept by a Blaziken with Air Balloon. I must concur that it is quite easy for it to sweep and could be the best set. Bulky waters that stop this Blaziken are much fewer than those for his other sets because this Ken is definitely going to have +2 and 3 attacks by the time they switch in. It's extremely effective and has very few counters. Although like you stated plenty of Pokemon are going to use U-turn on it which is its only down side in this meta-game. In sand Excadrill still would out play if the opponent thinks the opponent will switch, but Ken users know this set doesn't need protect and should kill him on site. This would on a positive note leave Ken hurt by Return/Rockslide damage and cause him to only gain +1 speed and nothing else. In sun it's a completely different game however, because now water types are not doing major damage, ground types aren't temporarily and Ken has a fire power boost. Only full health Dragonite and Gyarados have a chance at defeating this Blaziken in my opinion.

Razza · Jan 28th, 2012, 4:23:57 PM

No joke but blaziken is an absolute monster, pair it up with a chandelure and you got yourself a GG. I think chandelure needs a ban, now that all the previous OU ubers are available you can remove their few checks/counters with it and rape everything, plus shadow tag is just ridiculous.

AOPSUser · Jan 28th, 2012, 4:26:07 PM

Shadow Tag is ridiculous, but there are ways to play around it. The first is to run Shed Shell. The second is to predict Chandy coming in. The third is to play moves that will not hurt you if Chandy does come in. (Meaning no CB Close Combats until you know the opponent doesn't have Chandy.)

Matthew · Jan 28th, 2012, 4:52:41 PM

Chandelure can't really switch in that easily. I've been swept by a chandelure once during my entire dw career and that was due to poor positioning in the match. Chandelure is weak to SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Chandelure has piss poor defensive stats (60 HP? Get real). Even resisted hits are doing about ~25%. There's really nothing that terrifying about chandelure, considering how much hype it gives. My one qualm about Chandelure is that is does basically make stall a poor choice in the metagame. But that could also be seen as a positive.

Razza · Jan 28th, 2012, 5:17:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

Chandelure can't really switch in that easily. I've been swept by a chandelure once during my entire dw career and that was due to poor positioning in the match. Chandelure is weak to SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Chandelure has piss poor defensive stats (60 HP? Get real). Even resisted hits are doing about ~25%. There's really nothing that terrifying about chandelure, considering how much hype it gives. My one qualm about Chandelure is that is does basically make stall a poor choice in the metagame. But that could also be seen as a positive.

There's really nothing terrifying about chandelure? lol, just lol.

Shadow tag. 2 words.

And it doesnt really need to switch in, its more of a hit and run killer, mostly you are just double switching it in to remove a wall or bringing it in after a kill to pick something off.

Matthew · Jan 28th, 2012, 5:27:10 PM

why are you running pokemon that chandelure can so easily kill? That seems like a mistake you're making rather than the pokemon itself.

jamashawalker · Jan 28th, 2012, 5:27:29 PM

question? what is the common base speed in this tier? And I ask this because lets say you wanted to use a poke with 90 base speed, would it be better to add max Spe or just say screw it and not even put speed on it.

kuja20 · Jan 28th, 2012, 7:06:23 PM

Thing is with Chandelure, is that you're forced to play so cautiously. Whilst I don't think it's all that hard to handle, it is a tad overcentralising. I find that if it's played right, it's guaranteed a kill. I don't personally have a lot of problems beating it, I tend to run Tyranitar with Pursuit, most run Scarf Chandelure so it's not really a problem.

At the same time, it's incredibly rare for it to be able to beat more than one Poke thanks to it being SR weak, hard for it to switch in to a lot of things, hurt by Spikes + Toxic Spikes and it's low bulk (all of which Matthew has already said).

I've found Blaziken more of a thorn in my side, it really hits hard and fast. It could just be that my initial team had problems with it, it's still a large threat imo. I've had to include Slowbro on my team just to tank hits from it. I guess I can see more as I've played more.

Razza · Jan 29th, 2012, 1:49:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

Chandelure can't really switch in that easily. I've been swept by a chandelure once during my entire dw career and that was due to poor positioning in the match. Chandelure is weak to SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Chandelure has piss poor defensive stats (60 HP? Get real). Even resisted hits are doing about ~25%. There's really nothing that terrifying about chandelure, considering how much hype it gives. My one qualm about Chandelure is that is does basically make stall a poor choice in the metagame. But that could also be seen as a positive.

It hardly matters that chandelure can only switch into stealth rock four times, as each time it is doing so it is probably nabbing a kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

why are you running pokemon that chandelure can so easily kill? That seems like a mistake you're making rather than the pokemon itself.

Forgive me for running viable mons that have a weakness to fire or ghost -.-

Chandelure is just far too good at doing what it does, which is selectively killing certain mons so that the former uber sweepers of this tier can wreck shit.

Lets take blaziken for example: counters/checks: Slowbro, gliscor, Jellicent
All trapped and ohkoed by chandelure

Or maybe thundurus: counters/checks: Blissey, gastrodon
Ohkoed or set up on.

How about excadrill: counters/checks: bronzong, gliscor, skarmoury, tangrowth, slowbro
All trapped and ohkoed by the appropriate move.

yes i know skarmoury can run shed shell
But how about shed shell gliscor or shed shell slowbro?, sounds ridiculous.

Chandelure = terrifying and extremely broken

I dont even know why you are trying to defend it

EDIT: just had a dw battle, led with tyranitar ohkoed deoxys-s, opponent brings out terrakion, Who do i got to? my jellicent/slowbro? no he has a chandelure. Bronzong? No he has a chandelure, My gliscor? No he has a chandelure
My insert viable wall here? NO HE HAS A CHANDELURE!
That is why chandelure needs a ban

Shinji Mimura · Jan 29th, 2012, 2:23:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat sheniqua

Just wondering, will there ever be a DreamWorld UU or RU or something like that?

According to what all has been done and said up to this point, once all Dreamworld Pokemon are released the tiers will, thus, adjust themselves.

Jan 25th, 2012, 6:47:50 PM	#27
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,573 Where the Sun finally sets	Probably not, dw is a tier all to itself that is branched away from OU. I doubt it'd receive enough support for lower tiers unless it was just as active as OU is. dw ubers, however, is a thing. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 25th, 2012, 6:55:03 PM	#28
MegaKick Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,452 Out getting milk	honestly i thought that chandelure would be at it's best with sub-calm mind setting up on walls, with everything overpreparing for that set so much i think scarfchandelure is just so easy to use and pairs well with things like garchomp, serperior, manaphy and just about any boosting sweeper. I'm not calling for a ban but I definitely think it should be looked at. While i still say all weather in general should be banned, sand veil at the very least needs to be banned. The banning of brightpowder actually makes subchomp worse, as garchomp has a higher chance of dodging an attack with lefties than brightpowder because it can make more subs. I've faced a few rough skin chomps and it's still really awesome and tough to face, just not in a make you kill yourself way. @below: or you could use leaf blase virizion which can actually switchin, or you know, any pokemon that doesnt suck. Last edited by MegaKick; Jan 25th, 2012 at 7:55:48 PM.

Jan 25th, 2012, 7:31:32 PM	#29
erisia (macho) brace yourselves Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 854	For everyone looking for a way to beat CM Manaphy, CB Volt Tackle Raichu OHKOs even 252 HP variants (and is very likely to OHKO physically bulky sets with a round of Spikes) whilst outspeeding 100% of the time. trollface __________________ Check out Slowmons: A new metagame where the slowest Pokémon moves first!

Jan 26th, 2012, 3:41:37 AM	#32
Raseri I'm a leaf on the wind; watch how i soar Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,704 Mentor	A wellplayed Chandelure(one that does not switch in every other turn) is the most threatening mon in the game in my mind, clearly incredible at picking off team members one at a time. People rely to heavily on it though, don't make it youre only way to stop things... Also what do you think of Metagross? I've been using one on a rain team and its done really well, really cool typing and respectable special bulk (80/90) allow it to sponge hits from Latias with ease, he is also one of the best tyranitar switch ins right now and forces the monster to flee, giving you free rocks or an earthquake on a poorly played Chandelure. It's far surpassed my expectations and I might try it out in regular OU now Oh and in the rain it survives scarf chandelures overheat easily. Just sayin __________________ best Quality Control member 2012

Jan 26th, 2012, 7:21:29 AM	#36
Tiffanyy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 699	Raikou stops most every Manaphy, and keldeo. Just thought I'd put that out there. Also yeah what shrang said, just stick to a faster Electric type. __________________ gorgie: this is upsetting gorgie: ive never been this mad at pokemon is very long davidness: no comprendo davidness: gg

Jan 25th, 2012, 6:38:49 PM	#26
sheniqua Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 40	Just wondering, will there ever be a DreamWorld UU or RU or something like that?

Jan 26th, 2012, 7:21:12 AM	#35
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,989 play?	The reason Chandelure isn't killing the tier, so to speak, is because it requires the right to use Choice Scarf in order to revenge kill threats it would otherwise fall short of. Sub versions can set up and OHKO (bonus if they cannot break your Substitute) but its speed doesn't get you "far" before you're either forced to let it die, or save it for whatever else you wish to expunge. The quicker you bait the Pokemon who prevents "x" from sweeping, the easier it is to mop up; and it is done remarkably well by "the ghost of only fools and horses' chandelier". Example: Blaziken's currently getting walled by Slowbro without Shadow Claw, so Chandelure's Shadow Tag is requisite for your ultimate goal.

Jan 26th, 2012, 11:36:36 PM	#37
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 999 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	ok fuck garchomp i mean it's pretty stupid when my opponents use their garchomp as a check for my excadrill and it WORKS because apparently i'll always miss.. but the best team imo so far is sand offense because it's SO easy to use and it smashes through everything so easily so far i'm using ttar/excadrill/chandelure/skarmory/dragonite/serperior and it's pretty insane. it basically batters through the entire opposing team because chandelure is so goddamn good and excadrill basically makes it so that if your opponent's breloom / skarmory / etc is dead then GG blaziken is also pretty annoying to play against as well: taking it down is worth like 2 pokes easily

Jan 27th, 2012, 1:01:32 AM	#38
MegaKick Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,452 Out getting milk	(using 1337 stats here) \| 47 \| Azumarill \| 38 \| 2.021% \| 21 \| 1.407% \| Why is this so low? I know i haven't been laddering a lot lately but come on azumarill is just so epic, the only reason i can think of it being so low is jellicent being #10 (gogo toxic azumarill?) but even so the power to revenge so much and threaten everything is invaluable. Blaziken, shanderra, excadrill, landorus, weakened thundurus, all kinds of things scizor can't.

Jan 27th, 2012, 1:28:16 AM	#39
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	How come nobody is talking about Genesect? It's one of the best scouters, and it is the ultimate poke in a volt turn team. He's like landorus+scizor+rotom

Jan 27th, 2012, 8:38:49 AM	#40
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,989 play?	Air Balloon Blaziken with Protect sweeps teams for fun, especially if you're running Chandelure. But priority attacks cut its sweep short and the fact U-turn is very prominent in this metagame to gather momentum, Blaziken struggles to Swords Dance in a clustered tier full of powerhouses.

Jan 28th, 2012, 4:23:57 PM	#42
Razza Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 455	No joke but blaziken is an absolute monster, pair it up with a chandelure and you got yourself a GG. I think chandelure needs a ban, now that all the previous OU ubers are available you can remove their few checks/counters with it and rape everything, plus shadow tag is just ridiculous.

Jan 28th, 2012, 4:26:07 PM	#43
AOPSUser Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,736 San Diego (GMT -8)	Shadow Tag is ridiculous, but there are ways to play around it. The first is to run Shed Shell. The second is to predict Chandy coming in. The third is to play moves that will not hurt you if Chandy does come in. (Meaning no CB Close Combats until you know the opponent doesn't have Chandy.) __________________ My Scramble Compendium CAP ASB Team Shuckle sweep HARVESTTTTTT 23:17 Matezoide WATCHING PILOSWINE 23:17 Matezoide DIE 23:17 Matezoide IT MADE ME 23:17 Matezoide SEXUALLY 23:17 Matezoide AROUSED

Jan 28th, 2012, 4:52:41 PM	#44
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,573 Where the Sun finally sets	Chandelure can't really switch in that easily. I've been swept by a chandelure once during my entire dw career and that was due to poor positioning in the match. Chandelure is weak to SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Chandelure has piss poor defensive stats (60 HP? Get real). Even resisted hits are doing about ~25%. There's really nothing that terrifying about chandelure, considering how much hype it gives. My one qualm about Chandelure is that is does basically make stall a poor choice in the metagame. But that could also be seen as a positive. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 28th, 2012, 5:27:10 PM	#46
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,573 Where the Sun finally sets	why are you running pokemon that chandelure can so easily kill? That seems like a mistake you're making rather than the pokemon itself. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 28th, 2012, 5:27:29 PM	#47
jamashawalker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 497 Pac Time(LA/corvallis OR)	question? what is the common base speed in this tier? And I ask this because lets say you wanted to use a poke with 90 base speed, would it be better to add max Spe or just say screw it and not even put speed on it. __________________ Best UU ranking: #1 - 7/20/09 Don't underestimate me! I don't care about dubs, subs, or multi-lingual whatevers! Mark my words! Unmatched in heaven and earth, this dub will tear a hole in the universe! The dreams of the dub watchers... The dreams of the sub readers! Those two sets of dreams weave together in a double helix! Drilling a path towards tomorrow! And that's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S GURREN LAGANN! This dub will pierce through the language barrier and right through into tomorrow! JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?!! FACT!!: +6 252 SpAtk LvL 100 Choice Specs Quiet Heatran, Eruption+flash fire boost+Sun does 8522188 - 10026108 (77474436.4% - 91146436.4%) to a Lvl 1 Paras with 0 IVs. Is there an attack that does more damage than that?

Jan 28th, 2012, 7:06:23 PM	#48
kuja20 Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 581	Thing is with Chandelure, is that you're forced to play so cautiously. Whilst I don't think it's all that hard to handle, it is a tad overcentralising. I find that if it's played right, it's guaranteed a kill. I don't personally have a lot of problems beating it, I tend to run Tyranitar with Pursuit, most run Scarf Chandelure so it's not really a problem. At the same time, it's incredibly rare for it to be able to beat more than one Poke thanks to it being SR weak, hard for it to switch in to a lot of things, hurt by Spikes + Toxic Spikes and it's low bulk (all of which Matthew has already said). I've found Blaziken more of a thorn in my side, it really hits hard and fast. It could just be that my initial team had problems with it, it's still a large threat imo. I've had to include Slowbro on my team just to tank hits from it. I guess I can see more as I've played more. __________________ Bourbon "Truth is a thing which only appears to those who have observed, considered, and made a choice. At the end of the path you chose lies the truth. Believe in it, and continue without faltering."