Dream World General Metagame Discussion - Page 3

DDRMaster · Jan 29th, 2012, 2:47:43 PM

It doesn't really matter if Chandelure is vulnerable to SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes because you can just run Deoxys-S and HO to prevent your opponent from ever getting them up. Volt Switch and U-turn can also get it in without taking any damage and then either trap and kill whatever came in or start setting up.

Even if your opponent does get hazards up, Spikes and Stealth Rock don't really matter because Sub Calm Mind Chandelure only needs to come in once and will sweep unless your opponent has two physical Pokemon that can outspeed Chandelure. Even then, Chandelure is guaranteed to get two kills; one kill comes from the Pokemon that it traps and the second kill is on the Pokemon that breaks the sub.

The only way to prevent Chandelure from sweeping your team is either run Shed Shell or an SE move on all of your Pokemon.

AOPSUser · Jan 29th, 2012, 3:09:06 PM

Chandelure is so broken

Matthew · Jan 29th, 2012, 3:48:26 PM

See what I don't get is why your opponent would even bother to use Ferrothorn that match at all. Chandelure can take care of less-experienced opponents quite easily, as shown in that log, but in a high-tier match between two competent players Chandelure is just like any other pokemon you have to play around. I've been using Chandelure from the start and I still just find myself completely underwhelmed when using it.

AOPSUser · Jan 29th, 2012, 4:09:55 PM

Yeah most of the time Chandy is a revenge killer for me. (I kept on switching in on incorrectly predicted Scarf Terrakion Close Combats and dying to Stone Edges.)

idiotfrommars · Jan 29th, 2012, 6:20:12 PM

I start using a sun team and so far its been completely bossing it. The shear power of Venasaur and Blaziken is amazing plus the fact that they can remove each others counters fairly easily. I also find that balloon Blaziken is so much better than LO since it allows you to setup SD easier as well as not turning it into a suicide mon that dies after two uses of Flareblitz. HJK miss is still as annoying as every thouh.

smashlloyd20 · Jan 29th, 2012, 7:02:34 PM

Yeah, Sun's pretty boss, Venusaur and Blaziken are a great offensive combo and Chandelure traps and FLAMING DEMOLISHES anything that can stand up to them. Agree that HJMISS is the most annoying thing ever, though.

**Taylor** · Jan 30th, 2012, 8:35:11 AM

I agree with ifm regarding Air Balloon Blaziken, and that it is by far its best set when used with Ninetales. With Protect, it can prevent the opponent's Blaziken from shitting all over your team.

Shadow Claw/Stone Edge/HP Ice, when partnered with Chandelure to remove its counters more effectively, benefit Blaziken more than it would using one of those three moves in its last move slot.

Unless you're running Shed Shell, the mind games with Chandelure may prove to play a definitive role during the coure of the test tournament; due in less than a couple of weeks.

**Tobes** · Jan 30th, 2012, 3:33:49 PM

Personally I think Leftovers is a viable item for Blaziken as well, as mitigating the recoil from Flare Blitz can be quite useful. As far as coverage moves go, I'm inclined to think that Blaziken doesn't really need them, and can just make do with Blitz and HJK (provided it has sun support of course). Chandelure support is of course nearly mandatory on a sun team running Blaziken.

Also Substitute seems to be an interesting option over Protect. It prevents Ditto from beating you to a pulp with +2 Flare Blitz, and additionally gives a layer of defense against Breloom, which can be quite useful. Similarly, I've taken to running Substitute on Excadrill, which helps to combat Blaziken attempting to get the upper hand through Speed Boost. Subbing as they use Protect is quite satisfying.

**Taylor** · Jan 30th, 2012, 5:11:39 PM

Or use Fire Punch and rely on Hi Jump Kick to hit when called upon because sun + Air Balloon means you're weak to Flying and Psychic-types only, and you wouldn't generally fall back on Blaziken to take its chance in that position. But Leftovers' likely all around more suited for using Blaziken when using it with Tyranitar, even though Air Balloon prevents Excadrill from taking you in a one-on-one situation; unless they predict your Protect and Swords Dance with Frustration, and Protect fails on the second turn.

I must say Garchomp with Choice Band is like a "bitch-slap" to the face. It hurts no matter what, unless of course you're not using Chandelure and Outrage into fully, defensive Skarmory.

As for Chandelure, it requires a little more time when threats are thrown into the tier, as testing the metagame with threats that are patently viable in OU but not quite so in Dream World is not to be mistaken when determining whether a Pokemon is uber or not.

AOPSUser · Jan 31st, 2012, 12:42:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat AOPSUser

Chandelure is so broken

Did it again

Chandelure should go.

**Tobes** · Jan 31st, 2012, 1:38:07 PM

Your log is kind of invalidated since he was using Klingklang....

And by that I mean no more logs "proving" that Chandelure is broken.

**Taylor** · Jan 31st, 2012, 1:40:30 PM

It does seem like the tier is over-thrown with independent sweepers, all of which get so much time because chandelure narrows the gap for such a team to diminish whats left of their's after you remove a specific counter.

However, I doubt that it's prominently Chandelure that is solely the "new metagame" because there are Pokemon like Deoxy-S, Dragonite, Genosect, Breloom, and many other threats, that thrive inside and out of weather, for better or worse. That said, most successful teams shouldn't always have to rely on those exclusory counters in order to deal with the vast majority of questionably strong "suspects", as they tend to countervail one another in some way.

Imanalt · Jan 31st, 2012, 5:32:00 PM

i have (unfortunately) not gotten around to playing dw before, but from what i have seen reading through this, i would like to suggest testing giratina in ou. It can check the constant sweepers, however it seems to me at least that it could be brought down by offense. This seems like it would be a better course than banning all potent sweepers, or even banning chandelure.

Feel free to tell me im wrong though, since i havent played dw ou, i have no idea if it would be too gamebreaking.

Matthew · Jan 31st, 2012, 7:20:19 PM

I will never allow Giratina-A/O into the metagame. It'll completely centralize the metagame and force you to run 2/3 of not 100% counters. That seems completely ridiculous to me!

DDRMaster · Jan 31st, 2012, 7:37:14 PM

Specs Latios's Draco Meteor isn't even a guarenteed kill on Specially Defensive Giratina and the same is true for Choice Band Haxorus's Outrage against physically Defensive Giratina. These Pokemon can't even switch in effectively because even an uninvested Dragon Tail takes about half of their HP away.

jrrrrrrr · Jan 31st, 2012, 7:51:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat AOPSUser

Chandelure should go.

Dude...your first log was against Dragon Tail Tyranitar + Avalanche Swampert. Your second log was against Klingklang and a solely special-attacking team that any CM user would have swept. Stop posting useless logs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

i have (unfortunately) not gotten around to playing dw before, but from what i have seen reading through this, i would like to suggest testing giratina in ou. It can check the constant sweepers, however it seems to me at least that it could be brought down by offense. This seems like it would be a better course than banning all potent sweepers, or even banning chandelure.

You're seriously underestimating Giratina. 150/120/120 defenses and amazing typing do not give a single shit about anything in OU. The CM set by itself would be unstoppable in OU, let alone the stallers. You're talking about something that walls Groudon and Arceus...

Iceydude168 · Jan 31st, 2012, 8:01:42 PM

Why would we even consider bringing Giratina into the metagame...

To get past Giratina we should bring down Rayquaza.

To check Rayquaza we bring down Groudon, Deoxys-N, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A

Do we see how this logic does not work? If we have to bring an Uber into the equation, something is seriously wrong...

Matthew · Jan 31st, 2012, 8:02:48 PM

I have been enjoying Keldeo a lot in this meta currently. It's completely insane with how easily it sweeps with a simple Calm Mind / Hydro Pump / HP Ghost / Sacred Sword set. Throw a little bit of rain support in too and you've got a much more deadly manaphy. Speaking of Manaphy how's everyone dealing with our pony and little pixie? I've been using Rotom-C as an effort to fill any gaping Water-type holes in my team, and it's done pretty well so far (come on STAB Leaf Storm is sweet~).

Chandelure, as always to me, is still underwhelming, not exactly sure how the council and I are going to proceed with it. It's 50/50 for me as of right now. The most annoying thing in this metagame right now is for sure Excadrill. It's manageable, yeah, but it's still annoying trying to kill Tyranitar with Ninetales or something. Hitmonlee with Normal Gem and FO can be a pretty good check to Excadrill in the sand, as long as it isn't running a Jolly nature (then you lose :(). Not to mention Conkeldurr, Lucario, Breloom, and Infernape as all solid checks to it as well.

Just throwing some things out there.

EDIT:
Secret Sword rather. Stupid similar move names

Steamroll · Jan 31st, 2012, 9:55:01 PM

I second Genny's teambuild. It's incredibly difficult to shrug off both Manaphy and Keldeo while they're at +1 and their respective moves just obliterate anything that doesn't resist them. I also am giving Rain Excadrill a shot, since it has sort of a double edge sword in Dreamworld. It can safely come in on resisted attacks and rapid spin hazards away or safely set up Swords Dance and break through walls and checks with its respective moves (I use EQ and Return). If Sandstorm is up it can turn into a slightly weaker version of its offensive variant, and still destroy things.

**Taylor** · Feb 1st, 2012, 6:55:57 AM

Thankfully the Giratina-O transition has been put to rest because there isn't a chance you will see that Pokemon in OU. You'd create a Dragon-frenzy along with that and CBNite, for example, being able to revenge kill with priority and powerful Dragon-type moves; not to mention it is ridiculously hard to take out in ubers, let alone OU.

This brings me to my next point: if we should go down the route where we start picking things off, one by one, (Excadrill first, for example), the Dream World test would not be impartial for the quality of a balanced metagame. You have to remember that if we banned Excadrill, then the likes of Blaziken and Garchomp must also go because they are significantly more appealing than most sweepers because of their vast capabilities arraying from a combination of speed, power and adeptness.

Chandelure would then have a greater impact because you'd remove a handful of suspects, only to give this Pokemon the light and day to pick off its counters. So then those who outlasted the phase where we determine what is uber or not, may continue to find it easy in the DW metagame to flourish in.

Bologo · Feb 15th, 2012, 2:36:58 AM

To be perfectly honest with you, I actually enjoy this metagame. I feel that everything balances each other out quite nicely and that nothing is horribly broken (even Manaphy is not that difficult to play around IMO).

Except Blaziken, that is. Seriously, this thing is a dipshit. I'm usually able to work around threats just fine no matter what my team is and I really, really hate banning things, but Blaziken is really difficult to play around and it even has Baton Pass in DW to give its stockpiled boosts to something else if you bring in a counter. If it's in the Sun it doesn't even really need to use Swords Dance to layeth the smackdown on your team...

I know stuff like Slowbro and Jellicent are counters, but the fact that Blaziken can just BP his Speed boosts (and possible Attack boosts) away, or just use Shadow Claw to severely injure (most likely kill with SR and Spikes) both is just ridiculous.

**Tobes** · Feb 19th, 2012, 7:28:17 PM

So I've been quite enjoying rain offense. Specs Keldeo served as my main powerhouse, being backed up by Thundurus and Tornadus for their respective Prankster support. And speaking of Tornadus, it is really damn good in this meta. Very few commonly used Pokemon actually resist Hurricane (though the few who do are prominent). It can generally just come in and bludgeon things to death, and priority Tailwind is ridiculously useful late game. In fact I even use it on Specs Tornadus.

**Taylor** · Feb 20th, 2012, 7:19:46 AM

I think Politoed "rain teams" with Volt Change Thundurus and U-turn Tornadus could abuse Dugtrio/Wobbuffet to catch Tyranitar before they plan their Excadrill sweep. Keldeo hits as hard as they come in Dream World so focusing on its sheer power is a reliable strategy.

If Choice Specs variants invest in a 252/252 SAtk/Spd spread then our musketeer is going to suffer from Dragons overwhelming bulk and power, as well as the likes Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick and Excadrill's Life Orb Earthquake; all making easy work of Keldeo. Priority users also have a better chance to revenge kill it, especially under sand.

It just makes me want to revert back to Choice Band Terrakion in most circumstances, as it plays slightly better next to Tyranitar.

I do want to ask DW players from all walks of life though to share their thoughts on "rain versus sand". Right now I'm with sand because of Excadrill and the different versions of sand teams, but rain now has Keldeo along-side Thundurus, making those Thunders/Hydro Pumps as dangerous as ever.

Omicron · Mar 3rd, 2012, 3:33:16 PM

Rain teams and sandstorm teams are definitely dominant in this metagame, even with the inclusion of Blaziken. Manaphy, Keldeo, Thundurus, Tornadus, and Dragonite are just a few of the excellent rain abusers in the tier, and it is relatively simple to make a team built around one or more of them. Since Deoxys-S is also allowed in the tier, offensively oriented teams are even easier to pull off, and are usually successful.

What I'm really loving in this tier is Volt Absorb Raikou. Similar to UU, SubCM Raikou is an excellent sweeper if provided with spikes support. Volt Absorb just gives it even more opportunities to set up, as it is now immune to Electric-type moves, including the previously crippling Thunder Wave. It can easily abuse a powerful STAB Thunder with rain support, and provides an important Electric-type immunity for rain teams. Everyone seems to think that rain is all about Thundurus/Manaphy/Keldeo, but less-used Pokemon such as Raikou and Tornadus can easily take rain teams by storm, literally.

As for the topic regarding Excadrill, I'm really glad it's been given another chance at OU in the Dream World metagame. With things such as Technician Breloom and Air Balloon Blaziken to check it, Excadrill is a much lesser threat than it was in BW OU. Granted, Excadrill is still amazingly good; I mean, who can resist that sexy base 135 Attack, or that doubled Speed in sandstorm that even Deoxys-S can't outrun? There's numerous different ways to deal with Excadrill, and a lot of them haven't been discovered yet, or aren't very well known. For example, if my Politoed has perished already, and the opponent still has sandstorm + Excadrill, I have one last-ditch move in order to save the game. The key is Tornadus. Tornadus, unlike Thundurus, has access to a priority Tailwind. While this may seem gimmicky at first, I really only use it as a last-ditch attempt to save myself from being swept by Excadrill. Since Tornadus will always go first thanks to Prankster, my team will receive the Tailwind boost while Tornadus sacrifices itself to Excadrill's attacks. After that, I will bring in a Pokemon with a higher base Speed than Excadrill, such as Garchomp or Keldeo, and proceed to smash their Excadrill with Earthquake or Hydro Pump, respectively, thanks to the doubled Speed provided by Tailwind. It is strategies like these that makes the Dream World metagame so enticing; there are endless possibilities to what you can do, there are just so many great options and opportunities for a person to be creative when making a team.

I personally think rain is much more versatile and fun to use than sandstorm, as all sandstorm really can do effectively is just abuse Excadrill, Landorus, etc. Rain just has so many more possibilities, and that, in a way, makes it a lot more dangerous than sand. Of course, there aren't any Swift Swimmers thanks to the ban, but it still poses a remarkable threat with all the aforementioned characteristics.

However, despite the fact that I think this ~~tier~~ metagame is relatively balanced, I do agree that Blaziken is a major pain in the ass to deal with. Speed Boost is an incredibly ability, and now combine that with the fact that Blaziken can utilize Baton Pass in the Dream World, and you have one crazy good blazin' chicken on your hands. Although the Dream World metagame is relatively new, and I would still probably wait a little while for people to adjust to the metagame before putting anything up as a suspect, Blaziken is definitely the first Pokemon that comes to mind as a suspect.

blaZofgold · Mar 5th, 2012, 10:32:56 AM

I've never seen a Blaziken get past my Politoed. In actuality, countering Blaziken is super easy, just requires a solid physical wall. Gliscor, for example, will be able to KO with Acrobatics, and defensive Jellicent with Scald. Revealing a Blaziken early on can be annoying, but any prepared team should be able to stop it.

Rain is completely overpowered with Manaphy, Keldeo, and Thunder-spamming. As long as you tech in a Sand counter, like Gliscor, and a Pokemon that disposes of Tyrannitar, like Conkeldurr, you're free to sweep as long as you want. Boosted water moves hit harder than anything I've ever seen.

Jan 29th, 2012, 3:09:06 PM	#52
AOPSUser Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,745 San Diego (GMT -8)	Chandelure is so broken Battle between Leonard G and AoPSpwnz started! Tier: Dream World OU Mode: Singles Variation: +9, -23 Rule: Rated Rule: Sleep Clause Rule: Species Clause Rule: Wifi Battle Your team: Dragonite / Chandelure / Haxorus / Latios / Starmie / Ditto Opponent's team: Ferrothorn / Tyranitar / Skarmory / Scizor / Swampert / Heatran Leonard G sent out Ferrothorn! AoPSpwnz sent out RQF Setup! (Dragonite) Start of turn 1! AoPSpwnz called RQF Setup back! AoPSpwnz sent out Chandelure! Leonard G's Ferrothorn used Spikes! Spikes were scattered all around the feet of AoPSpwnz's team! Start of turn 2! Chandelure used Substitute! Chandelure made a substitute! Leonard G's Ferrothorn used Spikes! Spikes were scattered all around the feet of AoPSpwnz's team! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! AoPSpwnz: The fun begins Start of turn 3! Chandelure used Calm Mind! Chandelure's Sp. Att. rose! Chandelure's Sp. Def. rose! Leonard G's Ferrothorn used Spikes! Spikes were scattered all around the feet of AoPSpwnz's team! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 4! Chandelure used Calm Mind! Chandelure's Sp. Att. rose! Chandelure's Sp. Def. rose! Leonard G's Ferrothorn used Stealth Rock! Pointed stones float in the air around AoPSpwnz's team! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 5! Chandelure used Flamethrower! It's super effective! Leonard G's Ferrothorn lost 100% of its health! Leonard G's Ferrothorn fainted! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Leonard G sent out Tyranitar! Leonard G's Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm! Start of turn 6! Chandelure used Flamethrower! It's not very effective... Leonard G's Tyranitar lost 36% of its health! Leonard G's Tyranitar used Dragon Tail! Chandelure's substitute faded! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 7! Chandelure used Flamethrower! It's not very effective... Leonard G's Tyranitar lost 38% of its health! Leonard G's Tyranitar used Dragon Tail! The attack of Leonard G's Tyranitar missed! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 8! Chandelure used Flamethrower! It's not very effective... Leonard G's Tyranitar lost 25% of its health! Leonard G's Tyranitar fainted! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Leonard G sent out Skarmory! Start of turn 9! Chandelure used Flamethrower! It's super effective! Leonard G's Skarmory lost 100% of its health! Leonard G's Skarmory fainted! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Leonard G sent out Swampert! AoPSpwnz: Wait what happened to Sturdy? Start of turn 10! Chandelure used Shadow Ball! Leonard G's Swampert lost 61% of its health! Leonard G's Swampert used Avalanche! It's not very effective... Chandelure lost 57 HP! (20% of its health) The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Leonard G's Swampert restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 11! Chandelure used Shadow Ball! Leonard G's Swampert lost 44% of its health! Leonard G's Swampert fainted! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Leonard G sent out Heatran! Start of turn 12! Chandelure used Substitute! Chandelure made a substitute! Leonard G's Heatran used Earth Power! It's super effective! Chandelure's substitute faded! Leonard G's Heatran is hurt by its Life Orb! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 13! Chandelure used Calm Mind! Chandelure's Sp. Att. rose! Chandelure's Sp. Def. rose! Leonard G's Heatran used Earth Power! It's super effective! Chandelure lost 130 HP! (46% of its health) Leonard G's Heatran is hurt by its Life Orb! The sandstorm rages! Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm! Chandelure restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 14! Chandelure used Shadow Ball! It's not very effective... Leonard G's Heatran lost 52% of its health! Leonard G's Heatran used Earth Power! It's super effective! Chandelure lost 22 HP! (7% of its health) Chandelure fainted! Leonard G's Heatran is hurt by its Life Orb! The sandstorm rages! AoPSpwnz sent out Ditto! Pointed stones dug into Ditto! Ditto is hurt by spikes! Ditto transformed into Heatran! Start of turn 15! Ditto used Earth Power! It's super effective! Leonard G's Heatran lost 17% of its health! Leonard G's Heatran fainted! The sandstorm rages! Leonard G sent out Scizor! Start of turn 16! Ditto used Earth Power! Leonard G's Scizor lost 43% of its health! Leonard G's Scizor used Swords Dance! Leonard G's Scizor's Attack sharply rose! The sandstorm rages! Start of turn 17! Leonard G's Scizor used Bullet Punch! It's not very effective... Ditto lost 50 HP! (16% of its health) Leonard G's Scizor is hurt by its Life Orb! Ditto used Earth Power! A critical hit! Leonard G's Scizor lost 46% of its health! Leonard G's Scizor fainted! AoPSpwnz won the battle! Leonard G: well it looks like luck was on your side today __________________ My Scramble Compendium CAP ASB Team Shuckle sweep HARVESTTTTTT 17:37 Gem that dick 17:37 Gem i like 17:37 Gem :D

Jan 29th, 2012, 3:48:26 PM	#53
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,574 Where the Sun finally sets	See what I don't get is why your opponent would even bother to use Ferrothorn that match at all. Chandelure can take care of less-experienced opponents quite easily, as shown in that log, but in a high-tier match between two competent players Chandelure is just like any other pokemon you have to play around. I've been using Chandelure from the start and I still just find myself completely underwhelmed when using it. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 29th, 2012, 4:09:55 PM	#54
AOPSUser Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,745 San Diego (GMT -8)	Yeah most of the time Chandy is a revenge killer for me. (I kept on switching in on incorrectly predicted Scarf Terrakion Close Combats and dying to Stone Edges.) __________________ My Scramble Compendium CAP ASB Team Shuckle sweep HARVESTTTTTT 17:37 Gem that dick 17:37 Gem i like 17:37 Gem :D

Jan 29th, 2012, 6:20:12 PM	#55
idiotfrommars schemes and plots are the same thing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,025 Michigan	I start using a sun team and so far its been completely bossing it. The shear power of Venasaur and Blaziken is amazing plus the fact that they can remove each others counters fairly easily. I also find that balloon Blaziken is so much better than LO since it allows you to setup SD easier as well as not turning it into a suicide mon that dies after two uses of Flareblitz. HJK miss is still as annoying as every thouh. __________________

Jan 29th, 2012, 7:02:34 PM	#56
smashlloyd20 Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,814 Erry day im HEAD SMASHING	Yeah, Sun's pretty boss, Venusaur and Blaziken are a great offensive combo and Chandelure traps and FLAMING DEMOLISHES anything that can stand up to them. Agree that HJMISS is the most annoying thing ever, though. __________________ Ten million fireflies

Jan 30th, 2012, 8:35:11 AM	#57
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,990 play?	I agree with ifm regarding Air Balloon Blaziken, and that it is by far its best set when used with Ninetales. With Protect, it can prevent the opponent's Blaziken from shitting all over your team. Shadow Claw/Stone Edge/HP Ice, when partnered with Chandelure to remove its counters more effectively, benefit Blaziken more than it would using one of those three moves in its last move slot. Unless you're running Shed Shell, the mind games with Chandelure may prove to play a definitive role during the coure of the test tournament; due in less than a couple of weeks.

Jan 30th, 2012, 3:33:49 PM	#58
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,256 GONER	Personally I think Leftovers is a viable item for Blaziken as well, as mitigating the recoil from Flare Blitz can be quite useful. As far as coverage moves go, I'm inclined to think that Blaziken doesn't really need them, and can just make do with Blitz and HJK (provided it has sun support of course). Chandelure support is of course nearly mandatory on a sun team running Blaziken. Also Substitute seems to be an interesting option over Protect. It prevents Ditto from beating you to a pulp with +2 Flare Blitz, and additionally gives a layer of defense against Breloom, which can be quite useful. Similarly, I've taken to running Substitute on Excadrill, which helps to combat Blaziken attempting to get the upper hand through Speed Boost. Subbing as they use Protect is quite satisfying. __________________

Jan 30th, 2012, 5:11:39 PM	#59
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,990 play?	Or use Fire Punch and rely on Hi Jump Kick to hit when called upon because sun + Air Balloon means you're weak to Flying and Psychic-types only, and you wouldn't generally fall back on Blaziken to take its chance in that position. But Leftovers' likely all around more suited for using Blaziken when using it with Tyranitar, even though Air Balloon prevents Excadrill from taking you in a one-on-one situation; unless they predict your Protect and Swords Dance with Frustration, and Protect fails on the second turn. I must say Garchomp with Choice Band is like a "bitch-slap" to the face. It hurts no matter what, unless of course you're not using Chandelure and Outrage into fully, defensive Skarmory. As for Chandelure, it requires a little more time when threats are thrown into the tier, as testing the metagame with threats that are patently viable in OU but not quite so in Dream World is not to be mistaken when determining whether a Pokemon is uber or not.

Jan 31st, 2012, 1:38:07 PM	#61
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,256 GONER	Your log is kind of invalidated since he was using Klingklang.... And by that I mean no more logs "proving" that Chandelure is broken. __________________

Jan 31st, 2012, 1:40:30 PM	#62
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,990 play?	It does seem like the tier is over-thrown with independent sweepers, all of which get so much time because chandelure narrows the gap for such a team to diminish whats left of their's after you remove a specific counter. However, I doubt that it's prominently Chandelure that is solely the "new metagame" because there are Pokemon like Deoxy-S, Dragonite, Genosect, Breloom, and many other threats, that thrive inside and out of weather, for better or worse. That said, most successful teams shouldn't always have to rely on those exclusory counters in order to deal with the vast majority of questionably strong "suspects", as they tend to countervail one another in some way.

Jan 31st, 2012, 5:32:00 PM	#63
Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,366 VT, USA	i have (unfortunately) not gotten around to playing dw before, but from what i have seen reading through this, i would like to suggest testing giratina in ou. It can check the constant sweepers, however it seems to me at least that it could be brought down by offense. This seems like it would be a better course than banning all potent sweepers, or even banning chandelure. Feel free to tell me im wrong though, since i havent played dw ou, i have no idea if it would be too gamebreaking.

Jan 31st, 2012, 7:20:19 PM	#64
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,574 Where the Sun finally sets	I will never allow Giratina-A/O into the metagame. It'll completely centralize the metagame and force you to run 2/3 of not 100% counters. That seems completely ridiculous to me! __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 31st, 2012, 8:01:42 PM	#67
Iceydude168 Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 111 Ohio	Why would we even consider bringing Giratina into the metagame... To get past Giratina we should bring down Rayquaza. To check Rayquaza we bring down Groudon, Deoxys-N, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A Do we see how this logic does not work? If we have to bring an Uber into the equation, something is seriously wrong...

Jan 31st, 2012, 8:02:48 PM	#68
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,574 Where the Sun finally sets	I have been enjoying Keldeo a lot in this meta currently. It's completely insane with how easily it sweeps with a simple Calm Mind / Hydro Pump / HP Ghost / Sacred Sword set. Throw a little bit of rain support in too and you've got a much more deadly manaphy. Speaking of Manaphy how's everyone dealing with our pony and little pixie? I've been using Rotom-C as an effort to fill any gaping Water-type holes in my team, and it's done pretty well so far (come on STAB Leaf Storm is sweet~). Chandelure, as always to me, is still underwhelming, not exactly sure how the council and I are going to proceed with it. It's 50/50 for me as of right now. The most annoying thing in this metagame right now is for sure Excadrill. It's manageable, yeah, but it's still annoying trying to kill Tyranitar with Ninetales or something. Hitmonlee with Normal Gem and FO can be a pretty good check to Excadrill in the sand, as long as it isn't running a Jolly nature (then you lose :(). Not to mention Conkeldurr, Lucario, Breloom, and Infernape as all solid checks to it as well. Just throwing some things out there. EDIT: Secret Sword rather. Stupid similar move names __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm Last edited by Matthew; Jan 31st, 2012 at 8:54:25 PM.

Jan 31st, 2012, 9:55:01 PM	#69
Steamroll Woof Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,765 (*・_・)ノ⌒┻━┻ Mentor	I second Genny's teambuild. It's incredibly difficult to shrug off both Manaphy and Keldeo while they're at +1 and their respective moves just obliterate anything that doesn't resist them. I also am giving Rain Excadrill a shot, since it has sort of a double edge sword in Dreamworld. It can safely come in on resisted attacks and rapid spin hazards away or safely set up Swords Dance and break through walls and checks with its respective moves (I use EQ and Return). If Sandstorm is up it can turn into a slightly weaker version of its offensive variant, and still destroy things. __________________ *Pokemon Showdown!* \| *#pokemon!* \| *teambats!* *emoticons!* \| *chat logs!* \| *Gen VI!* \| *roller coaster!* \| *Henry!*

Feb 1st, 2012, 6:55:57 AM	#70
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,990 play?	Thankfully the Giratina-O transition has been put to rest because there isn't a chance you will see that Pokemon in OU. You'd create a Dragon-frenzy along with that and CBNite, for example, being able to revenge kill with priority and powerful Dragon-type moves; not to mention it is ridiculously hard to take out in ubers, let alone OU. This brings me to my next point: if we should go down the route where we start picking things off, one by one, (Excadrill first, for example), the Dream World test would not be impartial for the quality of a balanced metagame. You have to remember that if we banned Excadrill, then the likes of Blaziken and Garchomp must also go because they are significantly more appealing than most sweepers because of their vast capabilities arraying from a combination of speed, power and adeptness. Chandelure would then have a greater impact because you'd remove a handful of suspects, only to give this Pokemon the light and day to pick off its counters. So then those who outlasted the phase where we determine what is uber or not, may continue to find it easy in the DW metagame to flourish in.

Feb 15th, 2012, 2:36:58 AM	#71
Bologo Have fun with birds and bees. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,828 Brampton, Ontario	To be perfectly honest with you, I actually enjoy this metagame. I feel that everything balances each other out quite nicely and that nothing is horribly broken (even Manaphy is not that difficult to play around IMO). Except Blaziken, that is. Seriously, this thing is a dipshit. I'm usually able to work around threats just fine no matter what my team is and I really, really hate banning things, but Blaziken is really difficult to play around and it even has Baton Pass in DW to give its stockpiled boosts to something else if you bring in a counter. If it's in the Sun it doesn't even really need to use Swords Dance to layeth the smackdown on your team... I know stuff like Slowbro and Jellicent are counters, but the fact that Blaziken can just BP his Speed boosts (and possible Attack boosts) away, or just use Shadow Claw to severely injure (most likely kill with SR and Spikes) both is just ridiculous.

Feb 19th, 2012, 7:28:17 PM	#72
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,256 GONER	So I've been quite enjoying rain offense. Specs Keldeo served as my main powerhouse, being backed up by Thundurus and Tornadus for their respective Prankster support. And speaking of Tornadus, it is really damn good in this meta. Very few commonly used Pokemon actually resist Hurricane (though the few who do are prominent). It can generally just come in and bludgeon things to death, and priority Tailwind is ridiculously useful late game. In fact I even use it on Specs Tornadus. __________________

Feb 20th, 2012, 7:19:46 AM	#73
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,990 play?	I think Politoed "rain teams" with Volt Change Thundurus and U-turn Tornadus could abuse Dugtrio/Wobbuffet to catch Tyranitar before they plan their Excadrill sweep. Keldeo hits as hard as they come in Dream World so focusing on its sheer power is a reliable strategy. If Choice Specs variants invest in a 252/252 SAtk/Spd spread then our musketeer is going to suffer from Dragons overwhelming bulk and power, as well as the likes Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick and Excadrill's Life Orb Earthquake; all making easy work of Keldeo. Priority users also have a better chance to revenge kill it, especially under sand. It just makes me want to revert back to Choice Band Terrakion in most circumstances, as it plays slightly better next to Tyranitar. I do want to ask DW players from all walks of life though to share their thoughts on "rain versus sand". Right now I'm with sand because of Excadrill and the different versions of sand teams, but rain now has Keldeo along-side Thundurus, making those Thunders/Hydro Pumps as dangerous as ever.

Mar 3rd, 2012, 3:33:16 PM	#74
Omicron Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,041 Seattle, WA	Rain teams and sandstorm teams are definitely dominant in this metagame, even with the inclusion of Blaziken. Manaphy, Keldeo, Thundurus, Tornadus, and Dragonite are just a few of the excellent rain abusers in the tier, and it is relatively simple to make a team built around one or more of them. Since Deoxys-S is also allowed in the tier, offensively oriented teams are even easier to pull off, and are usually successful. What I'm really loving in this tier is Volt Absorb Raikou. Similar to UU, SubCM Raikou is an excellent sweeper if provided with spikes support. Volt Absorb just gives it even more opportunities to set up, as it is now immune to Electric-type moves, including the previously crippling Thunder Wave. It can easily abuse a powerful STAB Thunder with rain support, and provides an important Electric-type immunity for rain teams. Everyone seems to think that rain is all about Thundurus/Manaphy/Keldeo, but less-used Pokemon such as Raikou and Tornadus can easily take rain teams by storm, literally. As for the topic regarding Excadrill, I'm really glad it's been given another chance at OU in the Dream World metagame. With things such as Technician Breloom and Air Balloon Blaziken to check it, Excadrill is a much lesser threat than it was in BW OU. Granted, Excadrill is still amazingly good; I mean, who can resist that sexy base 135 Attack, or that doubled Speed in sandstorm that even Deoxys-S can't outrun? There's numerous different ways to deal with Excadrill, and a lot of them haven't been discovered yet, or aren't very well known. For example, if my Politoed has perished already, and the opponent still has sandstorm + Excadrill, I have one last-ditch move in order to save the game. The key is Tornadus. Tornadus, unlike Thundurus, has access to a priority Tailwind. While this may seem gimmicky at first, I really only use it as a last-ditch attempt to save myself from being swept by Excadrill. Since Tornadus will always go first thanks to Prankster, my team will receive the Tailwind boost while Tornadus sacrifices itself to Excadrill's attacks. After that, I will bring in a Pokemon with a higher base Speed than Excadrill, such as Garchomp or Keldeo, and proceed to smash their Excadrill with Earthquake or Hydro Pump, respectively, thanks to the doubled Speed provided by Tailwind. It is strategies like these that makes the Dream World metagame so enticing; there are endless possibilities to what you can do, there are just so many great options and opportunities for a person to be creative when making a team. I personally think rain is much more versatile and fun to use than sandstorm, as all sandstorm really can do effectively is just abuse Excadrill, Landorus, etc. Rain just has so many more possibilities, and that, in a way, makes it a lot more dangerous than sand. Of course, there aren't any Swift Swimmers thanks to the ban, but it still poses a remarkable threat with all the aforementioned characteristics. However, despite the fact that I think this ~~tier~~ metagame is relatively balanced, I do agree that Blaziken is a major pain in the ass to deal with. Speed Boost is an incredibly ability, and now combine that with the fact that Blaziken can utilize Baton Pass in the Dream World, and you have one crazy good blazin' chicken on your hands. Although the Dream World metagame is relatively new, and I would still probably wait a little while for people to adjust to the metagame before putting anything up as a suspect, Blaziken is definitely the first Pokemon that comes to mind as a suspect. __________________

Mar 5th, 2012, 10:32:56 AM	#75
blaZofgold Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 64	I've never seen a Blaziken get past my Politoed. In actuality, countering Blaziken is super easy, just requires a solid physical wall. Gliscor, for example, will be able to KO with Acrobatics, and defensive Jellicent with Scald. Revealing a Blaziken early on can be annoying, but any prepared team should be able to stop it. Rain is completely overpowered with Manaphy, Keldeo, and Thunder-spamming. As long as you tech in a Sand counter, like Gliscor, and a Pokemon that disposes of Tyrannitar, like Conkeldurr, you're free to sweep as long as you want. Boosted water moves hit harder than anything I've ever seen.