Serperior

[DDRMaster]

I don't see the point in 3HKOing Salamence and Dragonite (one Leaf Storm and two Twisters) because both of them can just set up a DD on the first Twister and then OHKO you with either Outrage or Fire Punch. The only way you could actually take them out is if they switch in on a Leaf Storm while Serperior has a Sub up, which a good opponent will never let you do.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat DDRMaster

I don't see the point in 3HKOing Salamence and Dragonite (one Leaf Storm and two Twisters) because both of them can just set up a DD on the first Twister and then OHKO you with either Outrage or Fire Punch. The only way you could actually take them out is if they switch in on a Leaf Storm while Serperior has a Sub up, which a good opponent will never let you do.

My mistake, i worded it poorly. Twister ohkoes Salamence 100% of the time if it comes in on Leaf Storm with SR in play. And it deals ~50% damage to Dragonite at +2, meaning it can ohko if Dragonite is at 90% or less and comes into Leaf Storm with SR in play.

[Jukain]

I absolutely love the Sub + Seed Leaf Storm HP Ice set. You just come in, sub, leaf storm, and proceed to attack again or Leech Seed. It's a shame that it has limited coverage, but its not that bad.

[Vein]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

I absolutely love the Sub + Seed Leaf Storm HP Ice set. You just come in, sub, leaf storm, and proceed to attack again or Leech Seed. It's a shame that it has limited coverage, but its not that bad.

For better coverage, you can switch hp ice with hp rock.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Another option for Serperior, that noone has mentioned yet is Twister. Yeah you heard well. With SR in play it 2hkoes Salamence if it comes in on Leaf Storm. It can also deal ~54% to offensive Dragonite at +2 and with a LO, which is not bad, considering the fact that it allows you to carry a HP different than ice to deal with other threats.

Twister is a horrible move choice... It has 40 BP, lower than HP Ice, and only hits dragons super-effectively. While Twister may have better neutral coverage, it still leaves Serperior walled by Steels. Besides, while you' at it, why don't you use HP Dragon instead? (Not really)

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Cadence

Twister is a horrible move choice... It has 40 BP, lower than HP Ice, and only hits dragons super-effectively. While Twister may have better neutral coverage, it still leaves Serperior walled by Steels. Besides, while you' at it, why don't you use HP Dragon instead? (Not really)

Twister doesn't have better neutral coverage. A 2x or 4x resisted Leaf Storm is stronger than a neutral Twister. The only time when Twister is stronger is against foes with 4x resistance to Grass and 2x weakness to Dragon. So this means Dragonite and Salamence. As mentioned above you can 2hko Salamence with Leaf Storm + Twister + SR with LO, and you can 2hko Dragonites that have 90% or less with the same combo. These are the only reasons to run Twister!
Why not run HP Dragon you ask? Because by using Twister you can cover the 2 Dragons without spending Hidden Power, which could be used to hit other foes and give better coverage to Serperior. I am not saying it is a must or a very good option, just that it exists if you want to ko those 2 mons without spending your HP.

[Tonykantos]

Alexwolf, are you really considering a 40 bp attack as a competitive option for some specific dragon covering?

Use weavile if you are really paranoid about dnite-mence wrecking through your team...
No, really, the twister argument makes absolutely no sense. You are better off with hp ice/rock. And, coincidentally, both do more dmg to your preferred dragons than twister. You don't need to free anything, you already got that covered.


40 bp move to cover specific threats = gimmick = no




- next week argument: water gun being a viable option vs camerupt and magcargo -

[Steamroll]

haha it's actually quite funny. Using twister along with HP fire and Leaf Storm offers incredibly good coverage. Even though it's like 40 BP at +2 it's still going to hurt.

[New World Order]

Twister seems like an alright option if you're opting for HP Fire/ HP Rock/ HP Ground. However, HP Ice is better than Twister in just about every aspect. It's probably one of those "AC" moves that are only there because there's nothing else in its movepool.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Tonykantos

Alexwolf, are you really considering a 40 bp attack as a competitive option for some specific dragon covering?

Use weavile if you are really paranoid about dnite-mence wrecking through your team...
No, really, the twister argument makes absolutely no sense. You are better off with hp ice/rock. And, coincidentally, both do more dmg to your preferred dragons than twister. You don't need to free anything, you already got that covered.


40 bp move to cover specific threats = gimmick = no

Have you ever heard of pokes running moves to get rid of their counters? That's what Twister does. If you want to kill Salamence and Dragonite without running HP Ice or HP Rock then you have the option to run Twister. I never said that Twister should be a main move or whatever. It is just an option that allows Serperior to cover some Dragons while being able to use Hp Fire or Ground. And no, you don't have anything covered by choosing HP Ice/Rock. If using HP Ice then Skarmory, Jirachi, Forretres, Ferrothron, Volcarona and Heatran wall you. If running HP Rock then Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, Jirachi and Celebi wall you. So if you don't want those pokes to wall you while still hitting the 2 dragons that i mentioned you have the option of running Twister + HP Fire or Twister + HP Ground.

Also your explanation about what is a gimmick move is really messed up. Just because you say so doesn't mean it is true, especially when your reasoning is very bad. But whatever, i just mentioned that Serperior HAS the option to use Twister alongside HP Ground or HP Fire to achieve better coverage that's all. This discussion has ended from my side.

Originally Posted by Fat New World Order

Twister seems like an alright option if you're opting for HP Fire/ HP Rock/ HP Ground. However, HP Ice is better than Twister in just about every aspect. It's probably one of those "AC" moves that are only there because there's nothing else in its movepool.

Exactly this, except for the HP Rock thing (HP Rock hits everything that Twister hits harder, and against Dragons not weak to Rock, Leaf Storm is stronger than Twister). Twister is just an AC option ok?

[shrang]

What about Dragon Tail? Get some hazards up, get up a Sub, paralyse and phaze things that you can't kill, kill things you can kill with Leaf Storm. Sounds like it could be an annoying bastard to me =):

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Glare
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Tail

[bluemon]

if we are talking about gimmick coverage moves...

wring out/hp water/leaf storm in the rain?

its PERFECT COVERAGE (except ferrothorn, but weve got chandy and zone)

and hp water has respective bp (105) in the rain

[Tobes]

So I've been thinking about Serperior and common situations I found myself in when it battled, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Hidden Power Fire is the superior choice over Hidden Power Ice. No, not because of Twister (lol), but because of one thing, and one thing only: Genesect. Unlike, say, Dragonite or Lati@s, who can easily be trapped by Chandelure if need be, Genesect provides a serious dilemma when you're facing it with a Serperior. You could sacrifice something to Dnite or Lati@s and then easily revenge kill with Chandelure, but in Genesect's case it can and probably will U-turn, making it very difficult to pin down with Chandelure, as you often have to sacrifice something like Garchomp to Ice Beam in order to prevent Genesect from slipping out of Chandelure's grasp with U-turn and right into the arms of Tyranitar.

With Hidden Power Fire you can now hit Genesect as it attempts to sponge Leaf Storm, allowing Serperior to start throwing them out more freely later on in the match. Glare seems like an ideal move for Serperior the more I think about it since a paralyzed Genesect is far easier to catch with Chandelure. Leech Seed is very important as well, though, as Serperior is easy to wear down if it's the team's primary Water-resist. Leftovers seems better in most situations than Life Orb (unless it's like on hyper offense with screens or something), as Serperior wants to see as many turns as possible to increase the likelihood of getting enough boosts for a sweep, something that Life Orb actively works against.

[HardCore]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

So I've been thinking about Serperior and common situations I found myself in when it battled, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Hidden Power Fire is the superior choice over Hidden Power Ice. No, not because of Twister (lol), but because of one thing, and one thing only: Genesect. Unlike, say, Dragonite or Lati@s, who can easily be trapped by Chandelure if need be, Genesect provides a serious dilemma when you're facing it with a Serperior. You could sacrifice something to Dnite or Lati@s and then easily revenge kill with Chandelure, but in Genesect's case it can and probably will U-turn, making it very difficult to pin down with Chandelure, as you often have to sacrifice something like Garchomp to Ice Beam in order to prevent Genesect from slipping out of Chandelure's grasp with U-turn and right into the arms of Tyranitar.

With Hidden Power Fire you can now hit Genesect as it attempts to sponge Leaf Storm, allowing Serperior to start throwing them out more freely later on in the match. Glare seems like an ideal move for Serperior the more I think about it since a paralyzed Genesect is far easier to catch with Chandelure. Leech Seed is very important as well, though, as Serperior is easy to wear down if it's the team's primary Water-resist. Leftovers seems better in most situations than Life Orb (unless it's like on hyper offense with screens or something), as Serperior wants to see as many turns as possible to increase the likelihood of getting enough boosts for a sweep, something that Life Orb actively works against.

From my experience I'd say that the choice between Hp rock and Hp Fire is hard to make. They are both useful and can defeat common switch ins to Serprior. I use Hp Rock and have killed Dragonites, Ninetales, Chandelures, Skarmorys and more. If Serperior gets up to +4 spatk which isn't hard at all Hp Rock has the capability of nearly ohkoing Genesect and it also helps defeat Heatran. +2 Serperior is still very effective with Hidden Power Rock. The fact that you are granted more coverage with a + 4 Hp rock is most beneficial to me. Although Steels are definitely the Types you'd want to hit. The choice comes down to the team Serperior finds himself on. Right now a Pokemon like him is in high demand, so opinions on what sets are best for him are good and constructive to many teams. I hate the fact that Hp fire Serperior is easier to wall, but it does help in various situations just like Hp Rock. So like I said in my opinion it's 50/50 between the two and it all comes down to what your team can handle and can't handle.

[/B/utterfree]

I prefer Hidden Power Ground, to take down Heatran and Chandelure. If you need a surefire counter to Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Scizor, get Serperior a friend who can take them down (Darumakka, Heatran, Chandelure, Volcarona- so many Fire-types you can use for this to either scare them off or kill them it's not even funny). If Skarmory also causes you issues might I advertise Magnezone to trap him, too?

>_>
<_<

ANYWAY, Contrary Serperior really is good. However, Serperior still has its flaws, most of the time being that tough decision on what other two moves outside of Leaf Storm and Hidden Power that you want. SubSeed is good, but then Sap Sippers can laugh at Serperior. Taunt is okay, but how many people make their Pokemon Taunt bait nowadays?

I say Glare's a keeper on most of the sets since Glare/Dragon Tail make an excellent combo for Parashuffling, which with something that has decent defenses can use lethally well. It's no Multiscale Dragonite, but it's still a good Parashuffler.

Its movepool may not be big, but Contrary Serperior has enough for which to be good.

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

If Skarmory also causes you issues might I advertise Magnezone to trap him, too?

The issue with this is that a lot of Skarmory run Shed Shell specifically to avoid being trapped by Chandelure. In this meta if a valuable wall is vulnerable to Chandelure it will likely have a Shed Shell. Chandelure is of course an invaluable teammate against Pokemon who wall Serperior if they don't carry that item (like say Dragonite), but it doesn't help much with things like Genesect (who can just U-turn out of Chandelure as it switches in) unless Genesect is locked into Ice Beam or something. Same goes for Magnezone in that situation.

Hidden Power Ground is certainly a viable option, and a quite interesting one at that. Unfortunately it won't OHKO Chandelure even with Stealth Rock, while Scarf Chandelure outspeeds and easily OHKOes back with Overheat, so it'd be more efficient to run Dugtrio to trap Heatran (who generally doesn't run Shed Shell since Chandelure can't do jack shit to it without the rare HP Ground, especially since most Chandelure opt for the better HP Ice), and a Pursuiter of some sort such as Tyranitar to deal with Chandelure, freeing up Serperior to use the HP type of its choice.

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

So I've been thinking about Serperior and common situations I found myself in when it battled, and I've come to the conclusion that I think Hidden Power Fire is the superior choice over Hidden Power Ice. No, not because of Twister (lol), but because of one thing, and one thing only: Genesect. Unlike, say, Dragonite or Lati@s, who can easily be trapped by Chandelure if need be, Genesect provides a serious dilemma when you're facing it with a Serperior. You could sacrifice something to Dnite or Lati@s and then easily revenge kill with Chandelure, but in Genesect's case it can and probably will U-turn, making it very difficult to pin down with Chandelure, as you often have to sacrifice something like Garchomp to Ice Beam in order to prevent Genesect from slipping out of Chandelure's grasp with U-turn and right into the arms of Tyranitar.

With Hidden Power Fire you can now hit Genesect as it attempts to sponge Leaf Storm, allowing Serperior to start throwing them out more freely later on in the match. Glare seems like an ideal move for Serperior the more I think about it since a paralyzed Genesect is far easier to catch with Chandelure. Leech Seed is very important as well, though, as Serperior is easy to wear down if it's the team's primary Water-resist. Leftovers seems better in most situations than Life Orb (unless it's like on hyper offense with screens or something), as Serperior wants to see as many turns as possible to increase the likelihood of getting enough boosts for a sweep, something that Life Orb actively works against.

This is good in theory, but in actuality, most Genesect are Choice Scarfed, and that means without a Substitute, Serperior is gonna get destroyed by Bug Buzz / U-turn. I personally find Serperior to be massively overrated. I never had any problems with it, and to be honest, the more defensive variants with Glare and Substitute are way more annoying. Leaf Storm also has very low PP, meaning that it can be played around very easily.

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat Omicron

This is good in theory, but in actuality, most Genesect are Choice Scarfed, and that means without a Substitute, Serperior is gonna get destroyed by Bug Buzz / U-turn.

I was referring to hitting Genesect on the switch-in with HP Fire when it attempts to take a Leaf Storm

[bluemon]

how much does a rain boosted hp water do?

leaf storm+hp water sounds pretty cool

[DDRMaster]

Originally Posted by Fat bluemon

how much does a rain boosted hp water do?

leaf storm+hp water sounds pretty cool

252 SpAtk Serperior Rain Boosted Hidden Power Water vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Genesect: 29.33% - 34.63%
3-4 hits to KO

It's not going to do much to Genesect and won't OHKO Specially Defensive Heatran after a Leaf Storm, either. I can't really think of anything it would hit harder than HP Ground that wouldn't take more from Leaf Storm.

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat DDRMaster

252 SpAtk Serperior Rain Boosted Hidden Power Water vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Genesect: 29.33% - 34.63%
3-4 hits to KO

It's not going to do much to Genesect and won't OHKO Specially Defensive Heatran after a Leaf Storm, either. I can't really think of anything it would hit harder than HP Ground that wouldn't take more from Leaf Storm.

i meant chandelure :P
w/ life orb

[November Blue]

Originally Posted by Fat Omicron

the more defensive variants with Glare and Substitute are way more annoying. Leaf Storm also has very low PP, meaning that it can be played around very easily.

This is why I like Giga Drain. It conserves Leaf Storm's PP and, with Substitute, allows Serperior to play somewhat defensively with an offensive set.

[DDRMaster]

Originally Posted by Fat bluemon

i meant chandelure :P
w/ life orb

In that case, it will OHKO after Chandelure takes SR damage, which does give it something over HP Ground. Although, I find that it's easy enough to get Chandelure to KO one of your Pokemon and then trap and kill it with Pursuit. So then it won't even be able to come in on Serperior.

[jrrrrrrr]

Has anyone tried Scarf Serperior? It's pretty good, especially when that low health Genesect thinks it can come in to revenge you....and just gives you +2 more SpAtk to clean the rest of their team with.

[Danilo]

i havent seen any serp's lately, and im pretty high on the ladder. it really seems nuts against rain teams, and not terrible against sand teams(although it probably sucks against sun teams). Scarf Serp and Bulky Serp seem like the best sets by far