Research Week 2 - Rhyhorn, Pawniard, and Tirtouga

[Charmander]

Hello. Research week is back with the approval of Aerrow. If you don't already know what research week is:

Research Week attempts to investigate Pokemon who have potential, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I have selected 3 Pokemon we feel, with help from everyone else, could see use as they fill a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and perhaps future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

As you all know, Murkrow, Gligar, and Misdreavus are now part of the metagame. Gligar can be checked easily by Shellder and Pokemon with Ice-type moves, and Misdreavus can easy be trapped and killed by Dark-types, but what about Murkrow? The bird is very fast and powerful, and it can escape just about anything. That's why this Research Week, we will focus on Pokemon who can check and defeat Murkrow without too much sweat. The thing with Murkrow is that it is so diverse that very few Pokemon can check all its sets, and if you switch in the wrong Pokemon, it could usually be the end for you.

These three Pokemon can check Murkrow well and have much unknown about them due to their little use:

Rhyhorn

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Rhyhorn is really built for checking offensive Murkrow. A very high Attack stat and Rock typing grant Rhyhorn enough power to OHKO Murkrow with Stone Edge or Rock Slide. In addition, Rhyhorn gets Mega Horn, which hits Murkrow super effectively after it uses Roost. Rock typing also means the dinosaur resists Brave Bird and Heat Wave, attacks commonly found on different Murkrow sets. Its excellent Defense allows it to take Sucker Punch without too much trouble at all, especially with an Eviolite. Rock Polish or Substitute are great setup moves and can be used for free if Murkrow attempts Sucker Punch.

Pawniard

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Pawniard is another Pokemon just built to check Murkrow. With good defense, Steel and Dark typing to resist Brave Bird and Sucker Punch, and the ability Defiant to nullify Murkrow's FeatherDance, you can't really go wrong with Pawniard. It also has access to Swords Dance, Rock Polish, and Substitute to set up on an escaping Murkrow. Access to Brick Break lets Pawniard OHKO a roosting Murkrow and break screens that Murkrow might be hiding behind. Pawniard also has great Attack, which means that Eviolite Murkrow will have a lot of trouble tanking its hits, and very bulky variants made to stall can't hit the Steel-type with Toxic.

Tirtouga

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Tirtouga might not be as stable as a check when compared to Pawniard, but it definitely has its merits. Mixed defensive sets can burn Murkrow with Scald and attack it with Stone Edge. Additionally, it resists Brave Bird, Heat Wave, and Icy Wind, rendering Mixkrow useless. Being faster than the speed bird after using Shell Smash, Tirtouga can use Aqua Jet to avoid being hit by Sucker Punch and hit Murkrow before it can make a Substitute or heal. Rock STAB allows Tirtouga to OHKO Murkrow without any boosts as well. It can even carry Toxic for FeatherDance variants.

Have any good sets or discoveries on these Pokemon? Discuss!

[D4RR3N]

i'll be testing tirtouga for sure, will be updating this post later.

[SkyNet]

Rhyhorn (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

I used this Rhyhorn last year and it worked pretty well, Just you're weapon of stat boosting move, Sword dance works well against Stall while Rock Polish can rip apart Offensive teams. Rhyhorn reaches 22 speed and 38 after a RP and SD respectively and also packs 25 / 24 / 13 defenses which isn't bad, shame about the typing though :<

[Chieliee]

I've already played around a bit with Tirtouga, works great.

Pawniard+Missy looks like a solid combo.

[Furai]

Originally Posted by Fat SkyNet

Rhyhorn (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

I used this Rhyhorn last year and it worked pretty well, Just you're weapon of stat boosting move, Sword dance works well against Stall while Rock Polish can rip apart Offensive teams. Rhyhorn reaches 22 speed and 38 after a RP and SD respectively and also packs 25 / 24 / 13 defenses which isn't bad, shame about the typing though :<

I'm defo gonna try this only with Rock Blast > Stone Edge for those Substitute bastards!

[Corkscrew]

If you check out my RMT, you'll see I use Pawniard with Misdreavus to good success, having almost perfect synergy.

Also I used this Tirtouga set last meta:

Tirtouga @ Eviolite
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 212 Atk / 16 Def / 236 SDef / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Curse
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

With Sandstorm, with eviolite and after one curse, it's defensive stats reach 22/37/31 (I think anyway, do the boosts take into account the eviolite stats or the original stats?) which is pretty solid. It will also have an attack stat of 27 and Aqua Jet means it doesn't care about lost speed. It's not as good as Shell Smash but it was something different I tried that I think is at least worth a mention.

[Ray Jay]

Originally Posted by Fat SkyNet

Rhyhorn (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Was repping this set on the ladder today with Rock Blast > Stone Edge and on the receiving end of a Gligar Baton Pass set. With some investment, it's actually mildly bulky for a set up sweeper which is nice. The problems arise as it's weak to nearly all Choice Scarf users (Misdreavus and co still outspeed after a Rock Polish if they have a Choice Scarf) and that you have two set up sweepers that can't bust through Bronzor if you use it alongside Gligar. For this reason, either Magnemite or Scraggy is all but necessary and are good teammates. Hehe, if only it got Smack Down. In any case, I was impressed by its bulk, but not impressed by its inability to set up early game.

[Methmite]

Pawniard cannot take on mixed crow - It barely 2hko's it through krow's LO recoil where as crow *will* ohko with heat wave. It makes for a great FeatherDance counter cause it allows it to set up in its face (especially since it cant be toxic'd) but It also just doesnt do enough damage to deal with other defensiveKrows. Substitue beats out Sucker punch; and allows for a free roost. While yeah; decent prediction can let you brick break a subless roost, any half way decent krow user wouldnt let you do that.

I played *alot* with pawniard earlier in the meta and a lot before the release of krow, gar, and missy. Pawniard's niche, imo, is really just as a set up version of stunky; and even thats pretty risky cause of HP fighting.

Of course, these are just my findings; but I'm nearly positive others who test it will find similar results.

EDIT:

I want to clarify what I mean by "set up version of stunky" cause at the time of writing it I was rushed and didnt really connect it all that well. Basically what i mean is; Pawniards *only* use against murkrow is that unless you're on last mon or are a ballsy idiot ; you will never leave a defensive krow in against it. Even if you out predict every single time; the fact remains is that defensive murkrow can do very little beyond Thunder waving it. This allows it the time to set up its Swords Dance (though i guess with eviolite being less common agility makes sense too. (also: maybe a AgiPass Gliscor with it? decent type synergy, etc) and then do what pawniard does best: too much damage to *unprepared teams*.

Now I emphisized that for a reason: in order for a team to not have at least *one* check to pawniard you're already more scraggy weak than any half way decent team should ever be. The fact remains: steel is a ruining factor for pawniard. It's not a helpful offensive typing; and being Ground, fire, and x4 fighting weak in a LC meta game is basically a death sentance. mix in mediocre speed and the only priority being resisted by the type that will always OHKO it (especially with LO) and pawniard just will not be living very long. In reference to a murkrow check/counter: it's steel typing (and subsequent fire weakness) keep if from dealing with offensive crows well.

In other words: if you're looking for a sweeper: Scraggy is better 9/10 and has similiar checks - so surprise value gets you little. If you're looking for a murkrow counter/check: correct me if im wrong, but dealing with the least seen (though definitely one of the most threatening) sets well and then failing to *all* the other ones does not consitute a reliable check.

Again this is what I've found from my work with it in the previous and begining of the current meta's, and if other people see things differently from their work I'd be interested. It's a fun mon: just has too much going against it.

Rhyhorn looks like fun: I want to use it with Mantyke. The two form a more offensive-ish sort of Skarmbliss core: Rhyhorn has scary attack and defense with eviolite; while the same is true for mantyke on the special side. As an added bonus: they're each immune to eachother x4 weakness and have generally good type synergy past that. I'll probably be doing something with that later tonight.


As for Tirtuoga; some one will have to explain to me what its doing there. *Anything* that can shell smash and then hit krow with priority can be krow (hell anything that can shell smash and some how survive the sucker punch can OHKO krow). I dont really think we need a whole week to test that.

[Ray Jay]

Originally Posted by Fat Methmite

Pawniard cannot take on mixed crow - It barely 2hko's it through krow's LO recoil where as crow *will* ohko with heat wave. It makes for a great FeatherDance counter cause it allows it to set up in its face (especially since it cant be toxic'd) but It also just doesnt do enough damage to deal with other defensiveKrows. Substitue beats out Sucker punch; and allows for a free roost. While yeah; decent prediction can let you brick break a subless roost, any half way decent krow user wouldnt let you do that.

Pawniard's niche is not against MixKrow. Pawniard's niche is being able to break FD CM Krow, something only Gligar and Toxic users can claim to do. Since a lot of Toxic users actually fall to repeated Drill Pecks and every user of FD CM Krow uses a cleric alongside it, that leaves us with Gligar and Bronzor as legitimate answers to it, both of which are already extremely common in the metagame. It really doesn't matter how it fares against MixKrow; that's actually what the other two Pokemon being researched are for. If you have Pawniard, something else on your team should be able to handle MixKrow. Murkrow can't be treated as one Pokemon due to its diversity. In fact, I'd go as far to say as no Pokemon perfectly counters all Murkrow sets at once.

As for Tirtuoga; some one will have to explain to me what its doing there. *Anything* that can shell smash and then hit krow with priority can be krow (hell anything that can shell smash and some how survive the sucker punch can OHKO krow). I dont really think we need a whole week to test that.

Tirtouga merits usage outside of Shell Smash. Actually in the OP it stated it could run a mixed defensive set, especially with sand on the rise... I remember kd24 using defensive Tirtouga and sand in the last meta, and it's ridiculous (not 2HKOed by Chinchou in sand...). In other words, there is legitimate surprise value here that could be merited (especially when one considers most Croagunk nowadays op for mixed sets without Drain Punch). In other words, Tirtouga's there for more than just Shell Smash.

[Methmite]

Originally Posted by Fat Ray Jay

Pawniard's niche is not against MixKrow. Pawniard's niche is being able to break FD CM Krow, something only Gligar and Toxic users can claim to do. Since a lot of Toxic users actually fall to repeated Drill Pecks and every user of FD CM Krow uses a cleric alongside it, that leaves us with Gligar and Bronzor as legitimate answers to it, both of which are already extremely common in the metagame. It really doesn't matter how it fares against MixKrow; that's actually what the other two Pokemon being researched are for. If you have Pawniard, something else on your team should be able to handle MixKrow. Murkrow can't be treated as one Pokemon due to its diversity. In fact, I'd go as far to say as no Pokemon perfectly counters all Murkrow sets at once.

I mentioned multiple times that it hardcore beats the FD CM set; but the fact remains is that is *the least* seen set on murkrow. Running an entire slot to deal with it seems equivalent to running Stunky to deal with ghosts. It will work; but its dead weight otherwise. Its a more extreme case here because its a *SINGLE* set its countering. It's nice to have it as a check to that *and* a decent physical sweeper; but it just lacks the typing to really pull a sweep well; even in the late game. I mean Sucker punch is nice and all but easily played around.

As far as I'm concerned this weak is about countering/Checking murkrow because that's the reason these are chose; all other benefits of the mon are just icing. Pawniard can handle only one set of murkrow's and pretty much does nothing except force a switch or die to the others. And while yeah; its about as solid a FeatherDance counter you will be able to find, it cant do much else wise. Even at +4; my croagunk (I got the set off of Ban Natt/Blarajan, so really their croagunk) will almost always survive a Sucker punch and OHKO back with vacuum wave EVERY time.

What im trying to say here and in my previous post is that it just can't do anything reliably*besides* beat Feather Dance without MASSIVE support.

Originally Posted by Fat Ray Jay

Tirtouga merits usage outside of Shell Smash. Actually in the OP it stated it could run a mixed defensive set, especially with sand on the rise... I remember kd24 using defensive Tirtouga and sand in the last meta, and it's ridiculous (not 2HKOed by Chinchou in sand...). In other words, there is legitimate surprise value here that could be merited (especially when one considers most Croagunk nowadays op for mixed sets without Drain Punch). In other words, Tirtouga's there for more than just Shell Smash.

I honestly forgot about defensive Tirtouga. Interested to see where this goes.