(Data) Breakout Discussion: Moves that require external sources.

**Deck Knight** · Feb 14th, 2012, 8:44:22 AM

A Breakout Discussion Thread is an offshoot of the Feedback & Game Issues thread where specific discussion and proposals are made.

This discussion will seek to codify which moves will be covered by Arena restrictions.

Existing common examples:

No Water Source available for Surf.
Ground is too soft or sturdy (or non-existant) to a;low Seismic Attacks (Earthquake/Magnitude/Bulldoze [Sometimes Earth Power in the last case]).
No Grass available for Grass Knot.

It is naturally true that Arenas can be built with whatever effects the user likes, however we're trying to go for natural physics here. What seems to be most at issue is attacks that call on natural elements.

The targets of most of these restrictions generally have wide distribution via TM or Tutor, so they will be the targets of this discussion topic. While for consistency's sake a rarer move might be subject to a common sense restriction, we should stick to attacks with high levels of distribution. It is assumed that some of these restrictions will only apply to Pokemon not of that type, since Pokemon of that type can usually generate the element in question.

The question at issue seems to be about Rock attacks. Specifically, Rock Slide and Rock Tomb, which are very common attacks on non-Rock type Pokemon. I'm curious to see if there are any other attacks you think should be covered before making a final proposal.

To be clear, here is the current list of attacks that fall under a common restriction:

Surf/Dive - No Water Source. This list could technically include Sludge Wave (all other Pokemon) and Muddy Water (all opponents).
Earthquake/Bulldoze/Magnitude - No Seismic Activity
Grass Knot - No Grass in Arena.

Adding a restriction for Rock Slide/Rock Tomb under "No Rock in Arena" could be implemented. I do not think Stone Edge should be covered, however, since it's distribution, while wide, is much smaller, and it basically keeps to Rock, Ground, and Fighting types exclusively.

Thoughts, opinions, and discussion welcome.

Leethoof · Feb 14th, 2012, 8:50:25 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with the "rocks required for Tomb/Slide, and Rock Throw". I imagine Stone Edge as striking them with part of the mon's body for Ground/Rock types, and hitting them with a hardened fist for Fighting types, so no external rocks required. In addition, Rock Blast, AncientPower, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, Rock Blast, Rock Wrecker, as well as obviously Head Smash and Rollout should not require external rocks.

The one that is still under question is Smack Down. Is it a projectile (requiring external rocks, but only for non-rock types), or just the mon hitting their foe?

**Deck Knight** · Feb 14th, 2012, 9:00:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Leethoof

I wholeheartedly agree with the "rocks required for Tomb/Slide, and Rock Throw". I imagine Stone Edge as striking them with part of the mon's body for Ground/Rock types, and hitting them with a hardened fist for Fighting types, so no external rocks required. In addition, Rock Blast, AncientPower, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, Rock Blast, Rock Wrecker, as well as obviously Head Smash and Rollout should not require external rocks.

The one that is still under question is Smack Down. Is it a projectile (requiring external rocks, but only for non-rock types), or just the mon hitting their foe?

Anime-wise, Smack Down is a concentrated orb of energy the Pokemon launches at the foe which immediately knocks them out of the sky.

Tortferngatr · Feb 14th, 2012, 9:02:57 AM

I also think that if you can somehow justify a source from the Pokemon itself for a source, they should be legal. Think Camerupt, for example-it gets Rock Slide via levelup and it could easily launch some boulders from its humps, which are effing volcanos.

**Deck Knight** · Feb 14th, 2012, 9:06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

I also think that if you can somehow justify a source from the Pokemon itself for rocks, they should be legal. Think Camerupt, for example-it gets Rock Slide via levelup and it could easily launch some boulders from its humps, which are effing volcanos.

Same applies to Conkeldurr, which has concrete pillars at all times (and the whole line learns it by Level-up, actually). I don't want it to get too convoluted, but basically if a Pokemon learns a move via Level-Up, it's probably naturally a part of the Pokemon (Slugma learns Rock Slide as well, and magma is actually molten rock, Slugma making rocks would be like a water type using Ice Beam)

Gerard · Feb 14th, 2012, 6:22:54 PM

I agree that rocks should be either part of the arena or part of the mon to be able to be used, but Stealth Rock also seems like the the kind of attack that needs natural rocks and probably Rock Throw but that's a minor move.

Another one that could be interesting to discuss it's moves that require a light source, I'm not just talking about the obvious ones like Solarbeam and Synthesis, but Shadow Sneak (that requires that the mon has a shadow) or Hypnosis and Teeter Dance (which requires the mon to see the pokemon).

Terrador · Feb 14th, 2012, 8:32:35 PM

A corollary question here: assuming that a move fails due to arena, how is that treated? Given the "no reffing illegal orders" mandate, it'd be nice to confirm this.

Yarnus of Bethany · Feb 14th, 2012, 8:53:18 PM

I think Stealth Rock, considering the number of pokemon and their diversity that can use it, seems to be a move that summons rocks out of thin air, not one that uses existing rocks. I agree about Rock Throw, though.

On the topic of light, I agree with Gerard, also, that light should be specified in an arena description.

Feb 14th, 2012, 8:44:22 AM	#1
Deck Knight Jigen Makkoto Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,850 Massachusetts	Breakout Discussion: Moves that require external sources. A Breakout Discussion Thread is an offshoot of the Feedback & Game Issues thread where specific discussion and proposals are made. This discussion will seek to codify which moves will be covered by Arena restrictions. Existing common examples: No Water Source available for Surf. Ground is too soft or sturdy (or non-existant) to a;low Seismic Attacks (Earthquake/Magnitude/Bulldoze [Sometimes Earth Power in the last case]). No Grass available for Grass Knot. It is naturally true that Arenas can be built with whatever effects the user likes, however we're trying to go for natural physics here. What seems to be most at issue is attacks that call on natural elements. The targets of most of these restrictions generally have wide distribution via TM or Tutor, so they will be the targets of this discussion topic. While for consistency's sake a rarer move might be subject to a common sense restriction, we should stick to attacks with high levels of distribution. It is assumed that some of these restrictions will only apply to Pokemon not of that type, since Pokemon of that type can usually generate the element in question. The question at issue seems to be about Rock attacks. Specifically, Rock Slide and Rock Tomb, which are very common attacks on non-Rock type Pokemon. I'm curious to see if there are any other attacks you think should be covered before making a final proposal. To be clear, here is the current list of attacks that fall under a common restriction: Surf/Dive - No Water Source. This list could technically include Sludge Wave (all other Pokemon) and Muddy Water (all opponents). Earthquake/Bulldoze/Magnitude - No Seismic Activity Grass Knot - No Grass in Arena. Adding a restriction for Rock Slide/Rock Tomb under "No Rock in Arena" could be implemented. I do not think Stone Edge should be covered, however, since it's distribution, while wide, is much smaller, and it basically keeps to Rock, Ground, and Fighting types exclusively. Thoughts, opinions, and discussion welcome. __________________ [17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me? [17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner [17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol [17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either [17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages [17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod. [17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal. [17:57] <Birkal> >:\|

Feb 14th, 2012, 8:50:25 AM	#2
Leethoof Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,939 Siberia	I wholeheartedly agree with the "rocks required for Tomb/Slide, and Rock Throw". I imagine Stone Edge as striking them with part of the mon's body for Ground/Rock types, and hitting them with a hardened fist for Fighting types, so no external rocks required. In addition, Rock Blast, AncientPower, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, Rock Blast, Rock Wrecker, as well as obviously Head Smash and Rollout should not require external rocks. The one that is still under question is Smack Down. Is it a projectile (requiring external rocks, but only for non-rock types), or just the mon hitting their foe? __________________ Team Bastiodon My ASB Hipster Index is: 5.26 (Probably lower than yours!)

Feb 14th, 2012, 9:02:57 AM	#4
Tortferngatr Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,545 United States of America	I also think that if you can somehow justify a source from the Pokemon itself for a source, they should be legal. Think Camerupt, for example-it gets Rock Slide via levelup and it could easily launch some boulders from its humps, which are effing volcanos. __________________ Cookie's law of a forum: as a thread gets longer, the probability of it being derailed by a religion argument approaches 1 If only the max avatar filesize was 90K... \|CAPASB stuff: My CAPASB Team~My reffing profile \|

Feb 14th, 2012, 6:22:54 PM	#6
Gerard Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,005 Mmm... Ice Cream!	I agree that rocks should be either part of the arena or part of the mon to be able to be used, but Stealth Rock also seems like the the kind of attack that needs natural rocks and probably Rock Throw but that's a minor move. Another one that could be interesting to discuss it's moves that require a light source, I'm not just talking about the obvious ones like Solarbeam and Synthesis, but Shadow Sneak (that requires that the mon has a shadow) or Hypnosis and Teeter Dance (which requires the mon to see the pokemon).

Feb 14th, 2012, 8:32:35 PM	#7
Terrador Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,008 One final hurrah before I depart.	A corollary question here: assuming that a move fails due to arena, how is that treated? Given the "no reffing illegal orders" mandate, it'd be nice to confirm this.

Feb 14th, 2012, 8:53:18 PM	#8
Yarnus of Bethany Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,828 In the world, but not of the world	I think Stealth Rock, considering the number of pokemon and their diversity that can use it, seems to be a move that summons rocks out of thin air, not one that uses existing rocks. I agree about Rock Throw, though. On the topic of light, I agree with Gerard, also, that light should be specified in an arena description.