Ubers CCAT 2: Runway is Clear, You are Free to Land [Step 4 - Playtesting]

[Metal Bagon]

Should be pointless now, but I think Sun Offense is certainly the way to with almost any Reshiram.

EDIT: Please don't waste time with a vote, or even more discussion for that matter. I think this is unanimous.

[TrollFreak]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

I support Sun Offense, seeing as Reshiram would really appreciate that sun boost which makes it even a bigger nuke!

[ssbbm]

lol flame charge reshiram = sun offense

[bojangles**]

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that we're doing Sun Offense.

Let's start suggesting teammates!

[DDRMaster]

Well since Stall and Balanced teams don't have the muscle to get through opponents without entry hazards and there's no reason not to run Reshiram with Sun support, Sun Offense seems like the only choice.

Edit: Ok teammates then.



Groudon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Drought

~ Thunder Wave
~ Swords Dance
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge

Groudon is an obvious choice to pair with Reshiram, as it sets up permanent Sun to help it sweep. This particular Groudon can spread paralysis as well as being able to sweep on its own. Paralysis support allows Reshiram to sweep when it wouldn't normally be able to set up Flame Charge, such as against offensive teams. ParaDancer Groudon only runs 200 Atk EVs to KO Lugia after SR, but this team won't be able to have access to Stealth Rock. Maxing out Attack ensure that max HP Lugia will always be OHKO'd by a +2 Stone Edge, with damage to spare. The remaining EVs are put into HP with the last 4 put into Defense to maximize Groudon's overall bulk.

[NTT]

Giratina@Leftovers
Calm
252HP/252SpDef/6Def
Thunder Wave
Roar
Dragon Pulse/Shadow Ball/Thunder
Dragon Pulse/Shadow Ball/Thunder

The largest obstacle Reshiram and Sun Offense in general face is obviously going to be Kyogre. Even if it is KO'd by Flame Charge+Draco Meteor (Assuming the speed tie is won), it completely neuters Blue Flare and forces Reshiram to go -2 SpAtt, significantly hampering any subsequent attempt at a sweep. Specially Defensive Giratina boasts an accolade very few other Pokemon can match, it can potentially survive three consecutive Water Spouts from a Timid Specs Kyogre after factoring in leftovers (38.5%-42.5%). With Thunder Wave crippling choice sets and Roar blocking setup attempts, Giratina is the closest to an all-encompassing Kyogre check as you're likely to find without resorting to one of the Dry Skin/Water Absorb/Storm Drain users from the lower tiers, few of which can effectively check as many Kyogre variants. Thunder Wave also aids the concept by stopping scarved revenge killers from outspeeding +1 Reshiram. The last two slots can comprise of either dual STAB, or bring in Thunder to directly maul Kyogre.

I personally use a CounterCoat Deoxys-A on my FC Reshiram centric team. It makes an excellent lure against lead Kyogre who assume they just outspeed and nuke D-A with Waterspout. It's gimmicky as hell, but that team is virtually unchanged since I made it almost exactly one year ago and it still breaks into the top 20 of the ladder without much effort, so I though I'd throw it out there.

[Tonykantos]

Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Jolly
252HP/252 Spe/4Spdef
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-Protect / SunnyDay
-Sleep Powder

Man, I love this 'mon. Since I'm currently using a Sun team in Ubers, with the same exact Groudon set DDRMaster proposed, and a similar flamecharging Reshiram I give my "thumbs up" to this jumpluff.

At the same vein Groudon is a staple for a sun team, jumpluff really appreciates the permanent sun summoned by the volcanic behemoth. This guy annoys hell and back to any opponent not named ferrothorn. Thanks to his secondary typing, he can come into predicted quakes aimed at Reshiram, for instance , and Ferrothorns trying to leech seed. Or a free switch-in.
You opponent will then try to send his Kyogre, if he has one, or his designed icebeamer, while you substitute. If sleep powder doesn't miss, you will effectively cripple one pokemon for the rest of the match via sleep, and at least one or two more via leech seed and substitute. Or, in a rush to snatch Reshiram's leadership, it will win the match for you draining your foe's team HP and patience ( :3 )

In the unfortunate case that sleep powder misses on Kyogre, you will at least check if your foe scarved it or not. Play accordingly.

When Ferrothorn appears, if sleep clause is in play, switch to Reshiram, and let loose the Flame Charge again

The choice between sunny day and protect is really up to you. It's always nice to have a secondary weather summoner in case you lose Groudon but you don't want that rain/sand buffetting in battle forever. Protect lets you stall you out with substitute and leech seed even more, but beware of mind games, as always.

Random Trivia: This Jumpluff, under sun, outspeeds even +3 blaziken.

♥

[shrang]

Since sun offense's biggest enemy is obviously Kyogre, I think a Palkia somewhere would definitely be beneficial. As for the set, I think it's better to decide which Palkia variant to run when we have a team up, since Palkia can fill pretty much any role.

[locoghoul]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Since sun offense's biggest enemy is obviously Kyogre, I think a Palkia somewhere would definitely be beneficial. As for the set, I think it's better to decide which Palkia variant to run when we have a team up, since Palkia can fill pretty much any role.

I think Palkia would benefit from not being choiced as it gets pseudo STAB in the sun. Being able to roast steel types while not being locked into something that can be used as set up fodder helps to keep momentum going as opposed to -try to- revenge something, opponent switches into a resistance, then you switch back to counter/wall. If we are supposed to play without hazards on their field, it doesn't help to switch a lot unless really necessary. Reshiram itself should not come to the field more than twice. That's my opinion anyways. Also bear in mind that we have two dragons already and most likely Groudon (sun) so a steel type might be useful to soak up Dragon attacks. Steelceus or Heatran come to my mind.

[Poppy]

Sun Offense doesn't use stupid walls, let's PILE on the POWER.

GROUDON

Trait: Drought
EVs: 96 Hp/ 252 Atk / 160 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
Item: Life Orb
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Wave / Swords Dance / Rock Polish

This variant of Groudon doesn't take any shit from Dialga. Most Dialga don't invest much speed at all, and hope to smash your standard 252/0 Groudon with Draco Meteor, or avoid the OHKO from an uninvested Earthquake. With 252 Atk EVs and Life Orb Earthquake will always OHKO 252/0 Dialga, and will always 2HKO 252/252 + Kyogre, meaning the Crogre will have a harder time and you won't be its bitch. the Speed EVs ensure that you outspeed 216 neutral natured Rayquaza, which is commonly seen on mix and mix DD (although the analysis says Hasty Rayquaza is the norm many people commonly opt for Mild to nab the OHKO on Groudon most of the time with Draco Meteor). The preference of Stone Edge or Dragon Claw is whether or not you want to hit Gira-O and do about 50% to Lugia, although Thunder Wave already cripples it. Both Dragon Claw and Stone Edge deal with Rayquaza regardless. In the last slot I normally use Stealth Rock, but since bojangles is a silly man with a silly vision I'd slash t-wave to be irritating for things like non-Crogre switch ins, Lugia, Palkia, Arceus. Rock Polish and Swords Dance deserve consideration for the multitude of switches that Groudon causes, but I'd probably stick with Thunder Wave.

There remains an obvious team mate in what every sun team needs: a Kyogre switch in. Now, there are 3 that one would consider from a non-hazard team - Palkia, Gastrodon, and Water-Arceus (don't use Grass Arceus on sun teams). Since Gastrodon is a complete deadweight against opposing sun I'd opt for either a Water-Arceus or a Palkia, and since we're taking the offensive approach we might as well use Palkia.

PALKIA

Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
Item: Lustrous Orb
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Surf
- Spacial Rend

no need for mix sets as when running a sun team a Palkia that can take advantage of both forms of weather is more flexible.

I'm going to suggest a no frills Ekiller Arceus as well, with Overheat to take advantage of the sun and Skarmory switch ins.

ARCEUS-NORMAL

Trait: Multitype
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
Item: Silk Scarf
- Overheat / Shadow Claw
- ExtremeSpeed
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

I think that the speed in the analysis in really superfluous, and even 132 speed is unecessary, positive natured + speed pokemon that aren't weak to ExtremeSpeed basically don't exist so 16 is all that you really need to outspeed neutral natured ones. The extra bulk afforded by this set lets you survive scarf Terrakions Close Combat most (i think, it might be all of) the time. Overheat in sun will maul Skarmory, even with a negative nature, but since we don't have Stealth Rock there's a higher chance of it having sturdy so we may opt in favour of just having the tried and true Shadow Claw. Or even Power Herb Shadow Force, which does mauls Giratina-A almost irreperably, and OHKO's Gira-O even with 252 Defense EVs.

The reason I chose Ekiller Arceus is that it's a very straight forward offensive force and does well in 'overwhelming' a lot of teams lacking a hard counter like Skarmory (which is set up bait for Reshiram) or Giratina-A.

Which brings me to

DARKRAI

Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+ Spe, -Atk)
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
- Substitute
- Dark Void
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse

Something that completely messes up the physical walls like Lugia and Giratina-A that like to switch into Groudon and Ekiller, a simple sub lefties set will do wonders (opted over the NP sweeper set so it isn't simply picked off by a scarfer after sleeping something).

[Furai]

I second Poppy's Groudon, that unpredictability and sheer power is just wonderful. Just saying, Thunder Wave and Stone Edge should be the moves, as Thunder Wave just fucks up Scarfers such as Palkia that threatens Reshiram even after a Flame Charge, and Stone Edge beats Ho-oh.

BUT, here's my suggestion!


Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Quick Attack
- X-Scissor

Choice Band Terrakion is not just a wallbreaker for Reshiram, it also makes a fantastic partner by removing Rock Arceus (with the exception of EQ which is wrecked by Groudon). Terrakion also enjoys Reshiram's presence as Reshiram can defeat Groudon and Giratina that wall Terrakion. Close Combat after the CB boost, and who knows, possibly a Justified boost, will hit like a fucking truck, while Stone Edge rounds off with supreme coverage. Quick Attack is good to pick off weakened foes, while X-Scissor hits Psychic switch-ins such as Mewtwo. However, Sacred Sword can be used, if we fear Bulk Up Dialga.

[Tomahawk9]

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Blaziken is a beast on sun offense teams, with great coverage with its high-powered STAB moves, Speed Boost, Swords Dance, sun boosting Flare Blitz. At +2 / +2 it can sweep a lot of teams quite easily, and it also beats down Chansey, Blissey or Tyranitar bothering Reshiram. Ho-Oh and Kyogre, two other premier Reshiram counters, and also both like to switch in on Blaziken, only to take a ton of damage from a sun-boosted Flare Blitz / Hi Jump Kick, leaving Reshiram free to sweep.

Nice format btw, Furai. I like the Terrakion suggestion as well.

[shrang]

Heh, haven't decided on exact sets, but...

(23:42) shrang: we ARE building a team around reshiram
(23:42) shrang: so therefore we need 5 pokemon to support it
(23:42) shrang: it really shouldn't be this difficult
(23:43) shrang: we could probably think of a team in 5 minutes if we really wanted
(23:43) barry4ever: lol
(23:43) barry4ever: true that
(23:43) barry4ever: meh the best thing would be to post teammates that help take out stuff that give resh trouble
(23:44) shrang: poppy has the right idea IMO
(23:44) shrang: yea
(23:44) shrang: reshiram -> groudon is compulsory
(23:44) barry4ever: yep
(23:44) shrang: -> kyogre weakness can be checked by palkia
(23:44) shrang: dragon weakness = chuck in a steel
(23:44) shrang: probably forry for spinning
(23:45) shrang: I can't really pinpoint exact weaknesses
(23:46) shrang: at the moment
(23:46) shrang: so just add two more sun abusers
(23:46) shrang: oh
(23:46) shrang: forry = hazards so chuck in giratina-o
(23:46) shrang: and then add something like venusaur in to absorb toxic spikes
(23:46) shrang: and there we have it
(23:46) shrang: then you go straight into playtesting and then make alterations if necessary
(23:47) shrang: (23:43) shrang: we could probably think of a team in 5 minutes if we really wanted
(23:47) shrang: that was 4 minutes

Italics are edits in the log while bold are the Pokemon in my proposed team.

[Furai]

I don't really get, however, why would we use Forretress when we're not allowed to use Entry Hazards. Besides Spinning and Volt Switching it would do absolutely nothing and be a total dead weight 9.9

Heatran or Steel Arceus could replace him

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Furai

I don't really get, however, why would we use Forretress when we're not allowed to use Entry Hazards. Besides Spinning and Volt Switching it would do absolutely nothing and be a total dead weight 9.9

Heatran or Steel Arceus could replace him

Oh right I forgot about that. So that means Giratina-O probably isn't necessary either. I reckon something like Heatran for the Steel and then we can use Rock Arceus to take on opposing Fire-types could work instead.

[Anikrahman1995]

Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roar
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower

Arceus poison can check most of the physical attackers handily. It serves as a check to extremekiller, by burning followed by phazing, who troubles reshiram. Since this is a sun team, flamethrower is the main attack to kill hazard setters such as forry and ferro. Groudon likes to come in on this only to get burned. It also serves as a toxic spikes absorber for the team and can roar setup sweepers out. It may seem that ice beam is the better option but this is untrue as rayquaza and groudon are already crippled by burn. The given evs give it an uneven number and it has just enough speed to outspeed all neutral natured base 90s.

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roar
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower

Arceus poison can check most of the physical attackers handily. It serves as a check to extremekiller, by burning followed by phazing, who troubles reshiram. Since this is a sun team, flamethrower is the main attack to kill hazard setters such as forry and ferro. Groudon likes to come in on this only to get burned. It also serves as a toxic spikes absorber for the team and can roar setup sweepers out. It may seem that ice beam is the better option but this is untrue as rayquaza and groudon are already crippled by burn. The given evs give it an uneven number and it has just enough speed to outspeed all neutral natured base 90s.

Actually, a lot of this is not correct. The only niche Poison Arceus really has over better defensive Arceus formes like Ghost Arceus is the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. Secondly, Poison Arceus doesnt really check or counter anything that Reshiram hates such as Chansey (at least not your variant), Scarfed Dragons or Kyogre. Neither can it work as a secondary sweeper as Poison STAB is crap. So, I don't think its a very good fit on this team. If we really wanted a Toxic Spikes absorber Venusaur would be a better choice tbh as it applies offensive pressure which this Arceus does not.

[shrang]

Uh I'm getting very frustrated with this CCAT, mainly because of how we have to make a team with no hazards when the opponent gets to use them. There are so many KOs lost if you don't have them. Also, seeing as we're using Reshiram, Ho-oh completely godstomps any team you try making with it, because no hazards is just Ho-oh's field day. So far, I have two teams, one was me brainstorming for the CCAT, and the other one was me trying to test Lilligant in Ubers and ending up with a team that for some reason that had no hazards but had Reshiram in it. They've been working alright so far, but would be so much better if we were at least allowed to use SR. *grumble*

Seriously though, I'd rather run a team without Ubers in the Ubers tier rather than a team without hazards...

Team one:

...

---

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 96 SDef / 160 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roar

Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
- Growth
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunder
- Surf

Arceus-Rock @ Stone Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Recover

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Reshiram @ Life Orb
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Flame Charge
- Blue Flare
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor

Team two:

...

---

Reshiram @ Life Orb
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Flame Charge
- Blue Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Sacred Sword
- Quick Attack

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Outrage (Will become V-Create as soon as the new client comes out)
- ExtremeSpeed
- Dragon Claw

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spacial Rend
- Surf
- Thunder
- Fire Blast

Lilligant (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Grass Knot
- Sleep Powder
- Healing Wish
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance

[Poppy]

Thanks for the solid post Shrang, I'm thinking that Stone Edge over Outrage may be better to lure and OHKO Ho-Oh, as it really is just a menace without SR.

The stagnancy of this project is quite worrying, I will talk to bojangles and see if he plans on setting up a poll, or organizing the team mates in some other manner (vote, or other alternatives). If something is not done within a week I will ask if I can take over.

In the meantime I still strongly encourage all of you to continue to posts team mates, completed teams, logs, results, problems, and anything else pertaining to this CCAT!

[bojangles**]

I've set up a week-long poll for the teammates. I took some liberties and nixed Lilligant straight off the bat. It is not a good Pokemon to use.

Although this poll is open now I would encourage you to wait before voting. Like Poppy says, I personally would like to see some evidence (logs) and such before I make my votes!

[Poppy]

Due to the sheer volume of team mates suggested (I also took into account Shrang's teams) sets will be discussed at a later date (and quite possibly in a separate poll). There will also be a tweaking period following this.

[prem]

vote for blaziken. its really good on sun offense, and resh can easily destroy Gira-a with draco meteor, allowing blaziken to sweep without issue. the 3 pokemon weak to water sucks, but in the sun thats much easier to handle, and a nice palkia or tentacruel makes it much more managable to handle than one would think

edit: shrang i voted for blaziken palkia and groudon lol

[Poppy]

Whilst that is true, only one Pokemon can 'win' the poll so to speak. Therefore, one should vote not on what would make a coherent team paired with Reshiram, but rather what would be a good stepping stone. In other words, vote as if you were voting for a second Pokemon, not for the team you would like to see. Additionally, this is also pertinent because sets will be discussed individually after the Pokemon has been voted in, so as not to complicate the whole process.

The next Pokemon voting stage will be shorter if we can get sufficient votes in time!

edit@ barry - Just slamming Groudon in as an obvious team mate may seem as the better decision, but I opted to let people vote anyway for formality, testing activity, and as an inauguration of the process-shift to team mates. It's only an extra week anyway.

[barry4ever]

Yeah, I was going to ask someone to post so that I could post myself without having to double post. Like shrang said playing without Stealth Rock is like the most annoying thing ever. Its ok, I can forego Spikes but life is hard without SR. The most annoying thing is when you deal 98% to a Palkia with a CB Terrakion Close Combat and get killed by Surf -.- Even then I shall endure this torture for the sake of the CCAT !

Ok, we basically definitely need Groudon since its Reshiram and we are running a sun team and all that jazz. When I was trying Groudon, I initially tried the one Poppy was using but found I was hardly ever using Thunder Wave. So, I just decided to throw on Rock Polish and it worked superb. Although, I wasn't running Shrang's variant since I ran Fire Punch but Double Dance could work just as well since we basically don't care about Ferrothorn. Thus Groudon not only worked as a wall and a secondary Arceus check but also as a sweeper. I am going to nominate the rest of my team in the next stage but I think the process could easily have been streamlined by simply deciding which Groudon variant we would use this stage itself instead of going for a whole week's wait. I'll try to get some logs up but don't expect top quality logs due to me playing like an 80 year old Federer and morons on PO going "AWZ0ME DRAG0NZ".

[SkullCandy]

Groudon is an obvious one, but apart from him I included:




Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EV's: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Thunder
-Fire Blast
-Outrage

Palkia is, imo, essential to this team. This set blasts Kyogre to bits. Thunder easily 2HKO's and Outrage does a minimum of 48.5%. Kyogre could easily become a huge problem for a sun team (duh) so having a dedicated check/counter is imperative. Palkia would also be excellent as a late game sweeper and revenge killer, drawing out Reshiram's counters and destroying them. Or he can just spam Fire Blast/Draco Meteor.



Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EV's: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe
Calm Nature
-Taunt
-Toxic
-Protect
-Lava Plume

Heatran would be a very useful 'mon for this team, particularly the stallbreaker set. Stall teams could tear this team apart if the user is not careful because the opponent could continuosly switch his walls about whilst taking no entry damage. You may notice a lack of RAWR on Heatran, well honestly if we have no hazards what's the point? Protect enables Heatran to scout choiced moves as well as gaining extra leftovers recovery and toxic damage.

...and my final choice...



Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-Protect
-Flare Blitz
-Hi Jump Kick

Blaziken. Laugh all you want. You won't be laughing when this chicken is ripping your intestines out through your mouth! (That's what Flare Blitz does right?) Jokes aside, the general idea is this. Switch Blaziken in after one of your mons has died and force a switch. On the switch use Swords Dance, and then Protect. All of a sudden you have a +2/+2 sun boosted monster on your hands. You may be wondering why Life Orb>Leftovers, well basically because Blaziken won't be staying around long anyway so you need it to hit as hard as it can of the bat. What this set needs to do is kill at least one 'mon on the opposing team, if not more, and to give Reshiram a free switch-in when it dies.

Those are my two (three?) cents.