RU Stage 5 Suspect Voting

[Oglemi*]

Eligible Voters

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1. Molk
2. Pearl.
3. Texas Cloverleaf
4. Avira
5. DittoCrow
6. Omicron
7. Blue_Star
8. Thatsjustpeachy
9. Nails

You may vote Ban, Do Not Ban, or Abstain for any of these Pokemon. Remember, if you are unsure about a Suspect's tiering, do not vote to Abstain, vote Do Not Ban instead. Abstain is only an option for those who do not want to vote for a Suspect, for whatever reason. That is different from being uncertain where a Suspect should be tiered.

Also when voting, Council members please give a little description explaining your votes.

The suspects for this round are Durant and Sharpedo. Suspects will need a 5-4 majority to be banned.

Durant
Sharpedo

Remember, all admins, supermods, or PR mods voting (coughNailscough), you need to delete your post in order to keep this a "blind" vote.

This thread will close Sunday, February 26 at 11:59 pm, or when all votes are accounted for.

[Molk]

Durant BAN

reasoning: OMG, this thing hits like a truck, and outruns the majority of the metagame, thos basically means, unless you have a pokemon like steelix or magneton, SOMETHING is going to die to the CB set. the Hone claws set has enough immunities, and forces enough switches, to set up, from there it 2HKOES max HP klinklang. honestly steelix and magneton cannot be used on every team, the only direct counters to it. Its checks, poliwrath, and qwilfish, have no recovery, and cannot do much back to durant. aggron can switch in on x-scissor, but is 2hkoed by iron head. gligar is set up by the hone claws set rather easily. with the appropriate move, adamant CB durant 2hkoes nearly the entire tier with the appropriate move. Durant's insane power, combined with its incedible speed and shortage of checks and counters, has a bad effect on the metagame, making it banworthy imo

Sharpedo: Do Not Ban

reasoning: Sharpedo is the best late game sweeper in the RU metagame, with its ridiculous attack and special attack, excellent coverage, and most importantly speed boost, which makes it harder to revenge kill without priority. but i do not feel its bannable at the moment, for one thing, hitmonchan and entei are very common in the metagame, making sharpedo easier to revenge, sharpedo also has two solid switch ins in ferroseed and poliwrath, all of which are very useful outside of checking sharpedo. sharpedo is a dangerous late game cleaner, and can create win conditions rather easily. imo The only things holding sharpedo back from being bannable are:
1) it only gets 1 chance to sweep, one miss, or being unable to OHKO the opponent and its game over
2) how common extremespeed and mach punch are in the current metagame
3) the fact that it has many checks and at least two hard counters, if these checks move up, sharpedo will be more dangerous

in the future, i could definatley see sharpedo suspected again, and possibly banned, but i simply feel the metagame has changed to adapt to it. Best late game cleaner in RU, but not broken atm, possibly later down the road

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Durant: Ban
Sharpedo: Do Not Ban

Durant (Synopsized from my suspect discussion reasoning)

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Durant has only one hard counter (Steelix), as well as four strong checks (Magneton, Qwilfish, Gligar, Poliwrath). In addition, he has several weak checks (Aggron, Sceptile, Accelgor, Entei, Scarfed Special Attackers). The defining factor of each of these is the lack of recovery, meaning that Durant can wear down its own checks. Furthermore, with the exception of Steelix and Magneton, each of the opposing Pokemon is defeated by a specific set Durant can run, such as Hone Claws for Qwilfish and Gligar, or CB Thunder Fang for Poliwrath. Offensive teams are left with Poliwrath and revenge killers as methods of dealing with Durant. Balance teams and Stall teams can use the previously mentioned Pokemon, but balance teams can rarely use Steelix and Magneton as the former loses far too much momentum whereas the latter has little utility except when specific Steel-types are needed to be removed.

Moving on to Durant's abilities, it its at an amazing speed tier, 109, which enables it to outspeed a majority of the tier without a Choice Scarf, making it very difficult to stop. Its natural power, and the threat of a Choice band will frequently cause switches, allowing for Hone Claws boosts to come unscathed. Should the attacker stay in, Durants excellent physical bulk ensures that the attack will be shrugged of easily, leaving the opponent in a worse position. If needs be it can also take weaker special attacks reasonably well. With this said, what should be emphasized is the frequency with which Durant can set up. A large number of Durants checks and counters lack reliable recovery and, as such, cannot take Durant on multiple times. With the ease with which Durant can set up, as mentioned previously, these checks become forced to take Durant the first time, and then again when it sets up later in the match, something that is incredibly difficult to do with hazard presence and other teammates that need to be checked. Then there is the CB Durant factor, which states that if you bring in a check to Hone Claws Durant, expecting it to set up, you get smashed by a Choice Banded move that will cripple you, case in point being Aggron. Furthermore, most teams with usually only have one solid answer to Durant, which is usually only capapble of completely stopping one variant of Durant. If the check is weakened through the course of battle, or if the Durant set is the one which the opponent cannot answer, Durant will sweep. Hustle makes stuff miss, Hone Claws counters that, yadda yadda. In addendum to the previous statement about the ease with which Durant can set up, it is also important to not that it is not difficult to switch it into play, due to its numerous resistances, as well as its Stealth Rock neutrality and Toxic Spikes immunity.

With the combination of Durant's prodigious abilities and the capability for it to beat most of its checks and counters I believe it is broken.

Sharpedo

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Stall teams have zero trouble with Sharpedo. Balance teams will have multiple Pokemon that can take at least one of Sharpedo's attacks and KO back. Additionally, they can run Poliwrath or Ferroseed as full stops to Sharpedo. Offensive teams will always carry one or more priority attacks that will KO or cripple Sharpedo, as well as usually one or two Pokemon that can survive an attack from Sharpedo, of which there are roughly 15 out of the top 50, along with 7 priority users that beat Sharpedo, 8 including Linoone, example of the former being Feraligatr.

Essentially I do not believe that a Pokemon can be considered broken when its only true role is late game sweeper/cleaner, even if it is one of the best late-game cleaners available.

[Pearl.]

Durant: Ban.

Originally Posted by Fat Pearl.

imo, durant is op in ru mainly due to the fact that all of its counters lack recovery, which means it's very easy to rack up enough damage to put them on x-scissor or iron head's ko range. everything else relevant has already been covered, but since this isn't enough i'm just gonna say what everyone else said. a combination of hustle, life orb and a boost from hone claws means that few things are able to take more than two hits from durant. also, the last move on hone claws set (which is either thunder fang, rock slide or baton pass) can completely shut down some usual counters durant has (baton pass can be used to avoid scarfless magneton, thunder fang is a 2hko on qwilfish and rock slide is pretty self explanatory), which is awesome. the choice band set is also very good (and i risk saying it's underrated) since it hits hard right of the bat and most people don't expect that. it can also work in a similar way gen 4 choice specs jolteon worked. both of them are frail hard hitting pokemon that can fit baton pass on a choiced set to scout stuff, except durant is much stronger (like it was already mentioned over and over).

last, but not least, most people understimate durant's ability to switch in. some pokemon, like hidden power rock lilligant, will do, in the worst case scenario, around 40% to durant, which means it still has 6/7 (depending on damage rolls) hits to deliver, considering it's using a life orb. also, 58/112 defense isn't that bad, giving durant the ability to tank feraligatr's aqua jet or hitmonchan's mach punch in a last resort. oh, and i've used durant for pretty much the entire round, so i know my shit.

Sharpedo: Abstain.

i don't really wanna vote on sharpedo. hope you understand.

[Blue_Star]

Durant: Ban
Not much else to say. Sky high attack, hits harder than SD Arceus after a Hone Claws, with great defense and typing to allow it setup on threats such as Tangrowth and users of weak physical attacks. Sure it does have checks, but the Choice Band set 2HKOes/OHKOes almost all of them with proper prediction (or even no prediction at all). It's also very fast, outspeeding a lot of important pokémon that would check it, such as Entei. For those reasons, I think Durant makes the metagame unhealthy and should be banned.

Sharpedo: No Ban
While I think Sharpedo is pretty overpowered, people have convinced me that it's not broken enough to be banned. It simply lacks the raw power to break through defensive cores, and offensive / balanced teams almost always have something to deal with it, be it either something bulky enough to survive a hit or priority. It also has a lot of counters, like Ferroseed, Poliwrath, Alomomola, etc. For this reason, I think it should be RU for at least another round.

[Thatsjustpeachy]

Durant: No Ban


The ant has a lot of power but we are overlooking its Accuracy issues and poor Spdef/HP. This makes it a victim of scarf/quick volt switches and missing crucial hits(CB set mainly but Hone Claws set still suffers from this when Durant can't get off a Hone Claws).


As for ways to deal with Durant, I am going to focus on the Hone Claws set(no BP and no Thunderfang, who the heck uses those?) and the CB set. RU has Poliwrath, Cofagrigus, Magneton, Steelix, Qwilfish, and fast strong Special Attackers, which I think is more than enough for Durant. A healthy Qwilfish+Intimidate+Twave, shuts down any plans of a Durant sweep. Yes it can be easy to wear Qwilfish down but the same could be said about racking up LO(if you choose to run that) and Hazard damage on Durant. Since accuracy is always an issue for CB durant, it leaves qwilfish in a better position to outlast Durant. Magneton makes for a good offensive counter by roasting the trapped ant with HP fire. Cofagrigus can take away Durant's hustle power and Willowisp is back. Although Cofagrigus isn't the best method to deal with durant, its not uncommon to see this spinblocker be paired with another wall that can check Durant on a stall team. The true defensive counters would have to go to Poliwrath and Steelix who both just shrug off any attacks that Durant tries to do. However Poliwrath should watch out for CB thunderfang though.


There are so many revenge killers that can stop Durant or catch it in the middle of setting up a Hone Claws boost it isn't even funny. Scarf Manectric, Scarf Typhlosion, Sceptile, and many more. It isn't hard for a Sceptile to KO it with Focus Blast or choose to Sub until that Hustle accuracy kicks in. Maybe for an offensive team its a game of which speedy killer outlasts the other, but an offensive team should pack enough pressure that Durant can't reliably set up. It's hard for Durant to enter the battle against an offensive team where it is likely that 5 out of the 6 pokes can ohko the bug. That is another area I want to address, the ability for the Hone Claws set to actually set up. Being vunerable to burn and paralysis, unless you catch the right poke in at the right time, Durant is most likely going to take a good chunk of damage or get crippled by status. CB Durant on the otherhand could lock itself into a move where it allows the opponent to set up afterwards or just not even hit due to Hustle accuracy.


Overall, not many great counters, lesser checks can be flinched KOd and worn out easily, very powerful attack, but it comes at a big enough price that Durant shouldn't leave RU. Hustle accuracy(especially for CB set), easily revenged, and not many switch in/set up opportunities due to its weakness defenses. It's close to being broken, but not close enough in my opinion.


Sharpedo: No Ban


Priority weak(even resisted honchkrow suckerpunch does a ton), fragile as hell, and definitely has its counters/checks. Does not even deserve to be nominated for a vote in my opinion. Poliwrath and Ferroseed(watch out for HP fire but even that will fail to OHKO) are the counters to any set Sharpedo runs while physically offensive sets get walled by Qwilfish, Spiritomb Mandibuzz, Alomomola, Tangrowth, and Crawdaunt. Depending on whether or not Sharpedo runs HP fire or Ice beam on the mixed set, it will most likely share most of the counters of the physical attacking set. Hitmonchan, entei, and even honchkrow all do a fine job of killing sharpedo with priority. Most offensive threats like Feraligator, Druddigon, TR cofagrigus won't get OHKOd so it isn't likely to force many switch outs until the late game. Not being immune to any hazards, status, and being pretty much forced to run LO and Protect doesn't help sharpedo either. Great late game cleaner, not much more than that.

[DittoCrow]

Sharpedo

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Sharpedo: Do Not Ban

Sharpedo is a really good Pokemon in RU. However, it does have several flaws which is why I don't want to ban it. First off, Sharpedo has plenty of counters and checks; it is not hard to beat. It also has very poor survivability, comparable to Honchkrow. Finally, Sharpedo has horrible defenses and cannot plow through teams as easy as it sounds. These main reasons make Sharpedo fit perfectly into the RU metagame.

It was agreed that Sharpedo's best moveset in RU is the mix set because it has great coverage. With this set, Sharpedo cannot get the necessary OHKOs it needs. Even though it will be 2HKOing most of the Pokemon it faces, it will most likely get severely damaged, if not OHKO'd, in the process. It is also taken down by priority, specifically Mach Punch which is found on the #1 most used Pokemon in the January 1200 Usage Stats. Sharpedo also suffers from "4 moveslot syndrome." It can't hit things like Poliwrath or Ferroseed without giving up Ice Beam, which is necessary for OHKOs on common counters Tangrowth and Rotom-C.

Sharpedo is going to be taking lots of residual damage throughout the match due to Life Orb recoil and entry hazards damage. Since Sharpedo mostly gets only 2HKOs or 3HKOs, that means that it will lose 20-30% of its HP in the process. Combine that with the need to constantly switch out due to priority users/counters/checks and Sharpedo will be taking even more from hazards. Sharpedo is not staying around for long, and will even be worn down as a late game sweeper due to his awful defenses.

Base 70/40/40 defenses really screws Sharpedo over. Since it is not able to OHKO things like Lanturn, Feraligatr, and even Crawdaunt, it will have to switch out or die to any of their moves. I'm glancing down the list of RU Pokemon right now and I see lots of Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO. Bouffalant, Ludicolo, Roselia, Magneton... you get the point. Sure, Sharpedo is going to KO any of these Pokemon if they're weakened, but doesn't that go for any other strong attacker?

Durant

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Durant: Ban

Durant is a great Pokemon overall. Steel typing is great in RU, and the ability Hustle makes it hit much harder. 109 Attack, 112 Defense, and unique 109 Speed makes Durant an insanely good Pokemon in RU. Sure it has base 58 HP and 48 SpDef, but Durant will most likely be hitting and OHKOing you before you hit it. In fact, Durant outspeeds AND OHKOs 35% of the Pokemon in the RU tier, and can 2HKO over 50% with just Life Orb. Choice Band is even more threatening; only 3 Pokemon can switch in to any move without being 2HKOd (after SR). Those are Steelix, Magneton, and Poliwrath, all easily defeated due to unreliable recovery. Durant just makes offensive teams nearly useless since they won't carry those 3 Pokemon listed above. Sure, things like scarf special attackers will be on offensive teams, but can they switch in? No. You will usually have to sacrifice a Pokemon to revenge kill Durant, and Durant will just switch out when you bring in that revenge killer. Repeat the process of sacrificing teammates and suddenly you're out of Pokemon. Oh I forgot to mention Hone Claws. Negating Hustle and giving an attack boost to something with base 109 Atk/109 Speed? Way too strong for RU. However it is possible to counter and check Durant. The thing is, the counters don't fit well onto just any team, and most of the checks can't directly switch in (Manectric, Accelgor, etc.). Overall, Durant is detrimental to the metagame and should be banned from RU.

[Omicron]

Durant: Ban

Although I initially wanted to keep Durant in the tier, it has proven to be a force nearly unstoppable without a Steelix or Magneton on your side. I could go in-depth about my reasoning, but it is plain and simple: Durant is simply too powerful for RU, being able to OHKO or 2HKO at worst every Pokemon in the tier with the exception of the aforementioned. RU will be a healthier metagame without it.

Sharpedo: Do Not Ban

Sharpedo, while quite powerful, isn't really ban-worthy at the moment. It's best used as a late-game cleaner, as it can be stopped by Pokemon such as Poliwrath, or by priority users, such as Hitmonchan and Entei. It has potent offenses, but it isn't overwhelmingly powerful, and is susceptible to many different Pokemon such that it doesn't pose as much of a threat as Durant. Offensive teams don't have difficulty with it thanks to priority, while stall teams can easily stall it out and wall it in some way.

[Nails]

Durant: Ban

I was undecided on this, but in the end it came down to the fact that it's very strong and outspeeds almost the entire metagame. It isn't that hard to revenge kill but you can't switch anything into it, and it can plow through checks with ease because of its sheer power, much like specs porygon-z. The CB set has really only one safe switch in and can 2hko a lot of resists with a stab move. Without a Steelix, you're really just guessing and hoping you don't guess wrong or you lose a pokemon.

Sharpedo: Ban

This one goes against he popular opinion, but sharpedo is really really good. It suffers from the same problem as Durant, in that you can't switch it into anything, but once in it can cause tons of damage. There are hardly any switch ins for sharpedo, and the fact that it is generally sent out late-game means that defensive cores are usually worn down by the time it's ready to go. Ferrothorn, arguably the second best check to sharpedo, has trouble staying healthy over the course of a game due to eviolite and no recovery. Poliwrath is a reliable counter, but to be honest, it really isn't a very good pokemon in this metagame, and it's about the only hard counter in the tier. After that, there really is a drop off on the list of pokemon that can handle sharpedo. Choice band entei can check it with extremespeed, but the fact that nearly all sharpedo carry protect allows the sharpedo user to scout the entei's move and then switch out to something else that can take advantage of a choice locked normal move after already killing a pokemon (since entei isn't a great switch into sharpedo).

Offensively, it is a powerhouse. A lot of stuff has been said about how powerful it is, so I'm not gonna go into that much.

[Avira]

Sharpedo suffers from weak STAB on the physical side that makes its 120 Base Attack much less threatening than it could be. To maximize its damage output, Sharpedo should invest in Special Attack as it has access to higher Base Power moves, and a decent (Not great) Base Special Attack to work with. It is decently powerful, but its lack in power allows for many other Pokemon to KO it after it fails to do, because Sharpedo has 70/40/40 defenses, which are not only poor for RU, but in any usage tier. That it automatically gets speed boosts through its ability certain aids it sweep, but it just cannot unless a team is thoroughly weakened late in the game, and in those situations, many different Pokemon can sweep/clean up even better than Sharpedo can due to higher raw power. Sharpedo's frailty allows for priority on offensive and balanced teams to destroy it, and allows for status/pure walling from defensive teams to defeat since it just isn't strong enough to break through them.

Vote - Do Not Ban


Durant is a very powerful Pokemon with an ability that makes it a very immediate threat with the 50% boost in its Attack stat. Its unique and high Base Speed allow for it to outspeed a significant portion of the metagame, but it does its drawbacks. Durant's Hustle decreases its accuracy (Although this can be remedied by using Hone Claws), it has terrible Special Defense, meaning that most STAB special attacks will do large amounts of damage to Durant and can deter it from switching in, and the fact that Hone Claws does not also boost Speed like Dragon Dance allows for faster Pokemon (whether through an item or their Ability) come in to revenge kill it, since Durant is not particularly bulky with no defensive investment. But, these Pokemon cannot switch in as Durant's massive power can mean that switching into an attack would mean that you lose your check. There are very few things that can reliably take Durant's attacks such as Steelix, Magneton, and Poliwrath. Playing around Durant without these Pokemon can be difficult, but possible as long as one minimize its opportunies to punish your team. While Durant is the biggest physical threat in the tier, I do believe that can be dealt with in a reasonable manner without opening up your team to other threats.

Vote - Do Not Ban

[Oglemi*]

And that's everyone, here are the results: (I swear I counted right this time! :x )

Durant: 7-2 Ban

Sharpedo: 1-1-7 Not Banned

With that Durant will be banned in standard RU play, while Sharpedo will most likely not be considered a suspect again, barring major metagame shifts!