The Sheer Force of Nidoking - OU CCAT - Page 2

Tomahawk9 · Mar 5th, 2012, 3:57:31 AM

I like the way this team turned out to be, thanks for all the time you put in this CCAT Pocket!

Anyways, if you've been having a lot of problems with stall, there might be a small change that can help against stall. Using Refresh on Latias instead of Reflect lets you 6-0 almost singlehandedly. After you sac every other team member so Latias can't be phazed out, Latias can set up on almost anything commonly found on stall teams. Thanks to Reflect protecting it from Toxic and Calm Mind + Recover protecting it from Ice Beam / Seismic Toss, Chansey and Blissey are easy setup fodder. Losing to Tyranitar and Scizor sucks, but that is what team members are for. Bulk Up Breloom already deals with Volt-Turn all by itself as well. Regardless, after you set up six Calm Minds almost nothing on stall can stop it. Curse Quagsire can take it on, but it provides a free switchin for Breloom or Gyarados. Jirachi can take on +6 Latias with luck on its side, but if you predict a Jirachi switchin you can switch right to Nidoking and launch an attack. All other Pokemon who can take a +6 Dragon Pulse don't have reliable recovery, so you can beat them quite easily (for example, see Heatran). Beware of stall teams with Choice Band Tyranitar though, that's another hard counter.

Another option you might want to try is changing around Gyarados's set. I think you're better off changing Latias's set, but it's purely preference so a change in Gyarados's set is worth a shot as well. However, this does open you up a little to Haxorus. The set shrang provided is a good option, but there's another Gyarados set that's pretty cool, namely the following set:

...

Gyarados @ Leftovers | Intimidate
Impish | 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Rest / Sleep Talk

CroGyara does a good job at beating stall without Electric-type attacks. If you sac everything on your team, it can't be phazed out and safely set up unless the opponent has a Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Hidden Power Electric Vaporeon or Thunderbolt Starmie. Unfortunately, this is usually easier for stall teams to take on than the aforementioned Refresh Latias. Another thing you could try with this set is using Dragon Tail instead of Sleep Talk, as for one it allows you to phaze, but also allows you to hit Water-type immunes such as Gastrodon.

**Pocket** · Mar 5th, 2012, 4:37:20 AM

Thanks, mostwanted for the rate! NP Mew is very enticing, but again, I am rather reluctant to lose our solid defense against Rain (and Sun) teams, cuz Breloom alone cannot weather the hits. I could possibly swap Breloom for Gastrodon or Blissey to cover this weakness, though :d

Quick Update - I tried the new EVs on Breloom and Jirachi - the loss in Speed was unnoticeable so I am happy :D. Thanks for the spread, complete legitimacy and SlimMan!

Along with those changes, I tried out Bulky DD Gyarados. With Bounce, it just wasn't able to get the job done in checking Dragons, so I swapped it with DTail, and it surprisingly worked out! DD provided some nice offensive pressure against the opposing team. I thought I would miss out on Gyarados's former bulk, but twash's physically defensive Latias came around to cover where Gyarados fell short, so the overlapping defense actually helped out here. Without Bounce, I probably wont be able to break stall, though, and unfortunately I haven't faced any stall team tonight to confirm this.

This is the Gyarados set I used:
Gyarados @ Leftovers | Intimidate
Adamant | 248 HP / 68 Atk / 8 SpD / 184 Spe
~ Waterfall
~ Dragon Tail
~ Dragon Dance
~ Taunt

I'll try SD Terrakion next. I am somewhat doubtful that the change will work out, because Scarf Terrakion's revenge-killing capabilities has saved me games. I will revert Gyarados back to bulky support to make sure the team can handle all offensive threats (and paralysis support would be even more important).

EDIT: Tomahawk returns for another rescue!! Yea, Refresh Latias is definitely something I would want to try out, since it would allow me to not fear Toxic or burns from Bulky Water-types as well. Against stall, I would have to make sure that Sableye, Quagsire, and PSong Politoed / Celebi are out of the picture before pulling this off, so it may require a bit of work, but definitely better than what I have now. Losing Reflect sort of sucks, but with Refresh, I could possibly remove Breloom for a more effective wall-breaker, like the NP Mew that mostwanted suggested!

Thanks for the suggestion, fellow team raters! I'll definitely try your ideas out :D

**ginganinja** · Mar 5th, 2012, 6:03:14 AM

Just posting to say that Breloom was added to give the team an extra weapon against Rain Stall, as well as Volt Turn. Therefore, I would caution against dropping Reflect Latias, and Breloom (for something like NP Mew) since Volt Turn becomes a real handful. I actually tested out Refresh on Latias but I encountered so many Quagsire on stall teams that it was near impossible to sweep. It would eventually be handled by the stall team bringing in Quagsire / Jirachi / Ferrothorn (to Leech Seed and then wear down). Food for thought I guess

shrang · Mar 5th, 2012, 7:12:03 AM

Just saying

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tomahawk9

etc etc

...

Gyarados @ Leftovers | Intimidate
Impish | 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Rest / Sleep Talk

CroGyara does a good job at beating stall without Electric-type attacks. If you sac everything on your team, it can't be phazed out and safely set up unless the opponent has a Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Hidden Power Electric Vaporeon or Thunderbolt Starmie. Unfortunately, this is usually easier for stall teams to take on than the aforementioned Refresh Latias. Another thing you could try with this set is using Dragon Tail instead of Sleep Talk, as for one it allows you to phaze, but also allows you to hit Water-type immunes such as Gastrodon.

Prepare to be vaporized, Tomahawk!

SlimMan · Mar 5th, 2012, 10:52:41 AM

I've seen several rates that suggest Latias be changed to a stallbreaker, such as Mew. I would disagree with this change. Although Mew would definitely help with the current Stall weakness, it would hurt the team's synergy. Latias really helps the defensive core as its best check to Sun/Rain. Breloom is also able to tank Hydro Pumps and Thunders, however, it takes only one surprise Ice Beam or Hurricane to put an end to it, and at that point there's really nothing that can take more than one double-stab Hydro Pump from Rotom-W or Starmie. Careful playing can keep Breloom alive, but the extra insurance Latias provides in that regard is much appreciated. And when playing against Sun teams, Latias is also the team's best bet. Once Sleep Clause has been activated (admittedly, this is really only achieved by smart switching and prediction), it becomes a solid counter to Venusaur, being 3HKOed by +2 Modest LO Giga Drain, and 2HKOing in return with Dragon Pulse. It also takes on Sawsbuck, who is less common than Venusaur but still the 2nd most common Chlorophyller in my experience. Gyarados is able to Dragon Tail both of these threats away once, but is cannot actually KO them, and if they set up a second time it can potentially spell doom for the team (Terrakion doesn't OHKO Venusaur with Scarf Stone Edge, and Sawsbuck out-speed Scarf Terrakion). Curiously, one thing that would not be missed from Latias is Reflect, as between Gyarados's Intimidate and bulk, and Breloom's excellent resistances, it's not often necessary to sponge general hits. In addition, VoltTurn is mostly covered by Breloom as well, who handles Scizor/Rotom-W/Landorus superbly (Breloom does fall to full-on team which employ members such as Hydreigon, Mienshao, etc. and Latias can help against them but full-on VoltTurn teams are somewhat rarer than the simple core), making Latias's ability to tackle the strategy also unneeded. Nonetheless, weather can really be a problem for the team if Latias is removed.
A much safer way to deal with Stall is to implement Bulky DD Gyarados or SubSD Terrakion, which messes with team synergy much less. They still perform similar jobs to the current sets, and wouldn't open up huge new holes to be exploited. So yeah, definitely change Gyarados or Terrakion before switching out Latias.

monster · Mar 18th, 2012, 4:47:50 PM

I like seeing Nidoking in OU, being one of my favorite mons. I wish he could be the actual star of the team.

Chieliee · Mar 19th, 2012, 4:14:27 PM

I'm not going to give a very big rate or something because i'm bad at that, but i think SubDisable Gengar (Substitute/Disable/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast) is a pretty big threat to your team. It hard-counters 4 members of the team (breloom, jirachi (disable iron head), latias, terrakion locked into anything but stone edge) Once Nidoking and gyarados are weakened to the point where they can be 2hko'd, you'll have to be saccing something every time it comes in.

I'll leave it upto you/other raters to find a solution, too lazy to do that, sorry

**Pocket** · Mar 20th, 2012, 2:01:17 AM

It's not that hard to switch to Scarf Terrakion on the turn Gengar attempts to disable Jirachi's Iron Head and check the Ghost. Gyarados also has great special bulk to tank a non-LO Shadow Ball with relative ease. Wish support from Jirachi keeps Gyarados healthy most of the times.

I've been playing around with SubSD Terrakion, and it definitely works as a stallbreaker, although I occasionally get fucked over by DDNite if I play carelessly with Gyarados and Jirachi. Without ScarfTerrakion I have no second chance against DDNite, but SubSD Terrakion is definitely worth this risk for now.

I've also tried out Refresh Latias, and it is much more effective than I have imagined. The team has sufficient means of beating Volt-Turns for Latias to forego Reflect.

Next up is Hone Claws Nidoking :d

Mar 5th, 2012, 4:37:20 AM	#27
Pocket Talonflame :D Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,296 Bergenfield	Thanks, mostwanted for the rate! NP Mew is very enticing, but again, I am rather reluctant to lose our solid defense against Rain (and Sun) teams, cuz Breloom alone cannot weather the hits. I could possibly swap Breloom for Gastrodon or Blissey to cover this weakness, though :d Quick Update - I tried the new EVs on Breloom and Jirachi - the loss in Speed was unnoticeable so I am happy :D. Thanks for the spread, complete legitimacy and SlimMan! Along with those changes, I tried out Bulky DD Gyarados. With Bounce, it just wasn't able to get the job done in checking Dragons, so I swapped it with DTail, and it surprisingly worked out! DD provided some nice offensive pressure against the opposing team. I thought I would miss out on Gyarados's former bulk, but twash's physically defensive Latias came around to cover where Gyarados fell short, so the overlapping defense actually helped out here. Without Bounce, I probably wont be able to break stall, though, and unfortunately I haven't faced any stall team tonight to confirm this. This is the Gyarados set I used: Gyarados @ Leftovers \| Intimidate Adamant \| 248 HP / 68 Atk / 8 SpD / 184 Spe ~ Waterfall ~ Dragon Tail ~ Dragon Dance ~ Taunt I'll try SD Terrakion next. I am somewhat doubtful that the change will work out, because Scarf Terrakion's revenge-killing capabilities has saved me games. I will revert Gyarados back to bulky support to make sure the team can handle all offensive threats (and paralysis support would be even more important). EDIT: Tomahawk returns for another rescue!! Yea, Refresh Latias is definitely something I would want to try out, since it would allow me to not fear Toxic or burns from Bulky Water-types as well. Against stall, I would have to make sure that Sableye, Quagsire, and PSong Politoed / Celebi are out of the picture before pulling this off, so it may require a bit of work, but definitely better than what I have now. Losing Reflect sort of sucks, but with Refresh, I could possibly remove Breloom for a more effective wall-breaker, like the NP Mew that mostwanted suggested! Thanks for the suggestion, fellow team raters! I'll definitely try your ideas out :D __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official! Last edited by Pocket; Mar 5th, 2012 at 4:48:42 AM.

Mar 5th, 2012, 6:03:14 AM	#28
ginganinja Delena 4ever Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,147 In Love	Just posting to say that Breloom was added to give the team an extra weapon against Rain Stall, as well as Volt Turn. Therefore, I would caution against dropping Reflect Latias, and Breloom (for something like NP Mew) since Volt Turn becomes a real handful. I actually tested out Refresh on Latias but I encountered so many Quagsire on stall teams that it was near impossible to sweep. It would eventually be handled by the stall team bringing in Quagsire / Jirachi / Ferrothorn (to Leech Seed and then wear down). Food for thought I guess __________________

Mar 5th, 2012, 10:52:41 AM	#30
SlimMan Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,475 Caroline du Nord	I've seen several rates that suggest Latias be changed to a stallbreaker, such as Mew. I would disagree with this change. Although Mew would definitely help with the current Stall weakness, it would hurt the team's synergy. Latias really helps the defensive core as its best check to Sun/Rain. Breloom is also able to tank Hydro Pumps and Thunders, however, it takes only one surprise Ice Beam or Hurricane to put an end to it, and at that point there's really nothing that can take more than one double-stab Hydro Pump from Rotom-W or Starmie. Careful playing can keep Breloom alive, but the extra insurance Latias provides in that regard is much appreciated. And when playing against Sun teams, Latias is also the team's best bet. Once Sleep Clause has been activated (admittedly, this is really only achieved by smart switching and prediction), it becomes a solid counter to Venusaur, being 3HKOed by +2 Modest LO Giga Drain, and 2HKOing in return with Dragon Pulse. It also takes on Sawsbuck, who is less common than Venusaur but still the 2nd most common Chlorophyller in my experience. Gyarados is able to Dragon Tail both of these threats away once, but is cannot actually KO them, and if they set up a second time it can potentially spell doom for the team (Terrakion doesn't OHKO Venusaur with Scarf Stone Edge, and Sawsbuck out-speed Scarf Terrakion). Curiously, one thing that would not be missed from Latias is Reflect, as between Gyarados's Intimidate and bulk, and Breloom's excellent resistances, it's not often necessary to sponge general hits. In addition, VoltTurn is mostly covered by Breloom as well, who handles Scizor/Rotom-W/Landorus superbly (Breloom does fall to full-on team which employ members such as Hydreigon, Mienshao, etc. and Latias can help against them but full-on VoltTurn teams are somewhat rarer than the simple core), making Latias's ability to tackle the strategy also unneeded. Nonetheless, weather can really be a problem for the team if Latias is removed. A much safer way to deal with Stall is to implement Bulky DD Gyarados or SubSD Terrakion, which messes with team synergy much less. They still perform similar jobs to the current sets, and wouldn't open up huge new holes to be exploited. So yeah, definitely change Gyarados or Terrakion before switching out Latias. __________________ Messidor

Mar 18th, 2012, 4:47:50 PM	#31
monster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 85 Virginia	I like seeing Nidoking in OU, being one of my favorite mons. I wish he could be the actual star of the team. __________________ White FC: 0605 3536 3776

Mar 19th, 2012, 4:14:27 PM	#32
Chieliee Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,483	I'm not going to give a very big rate or something because i'm bad at that, but i think SubDisable Gengar (Substitute/Disable/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast) is a pretty big threat to your team. It hard-counters 4 members of the team (breloom, jirachi (disable iron head), latias, terrakion locked into anything but stone edge) Once Nidoking and gyarados are weakened to the point where they can be 2hko'd, you'll have to be saccing something every time it comes in. I'll leave it upto you/other raters to find a solution, too lazy to do that, sorry __________________ nyuu~ This is the world we live in And these are the hands we're given Use them and lets start trying To make it a place worth living in.

Mar 5th, 2012, 3:57:31 AM	#26
Tomahawk9 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,439	I like the way this team turned out to be, thanks for all the time you put in this CCAT Pocket! Anyways, if you've been having a lot of problems with stall, there might be a small change that can help against stall. Using Refresh on Latias instead of Reflect lets you 6-0 almost singlehandedly. After you sac every other team member so Latias can't be phazed out, Latias can set up on almost anything commonly found on stall teams. Thanks to Reflect protecting it from Toxic and Calm Mind + Recover protecting it from Ice Beam / Seismic Toss, Chansey and Blissey are easy setup fodder. Losing to Tyranitar and Scizor sucks, but that is what team members are for. Bulk Up Breloom already deals with Volt-Turn all by itself as well. Regardless, after you set up six Calm Minds almost nothing on stall can stop it. Curse Quagsire can take it on, but it provides a free switchin for Breloom or Gyarados. Jirachi can take on +6 Latias with luck on its side, but if you predict a Jirachi switchin you can switch right to Nidoking and launch an attack. All other Pokemon who can take a +6 Dragon Pulse don't have reliable recovery, so you can beat them quite easily (for example, see Heatran). Beware of stall teams with Choice Band Tyranitar though, that's another hard counter. Another option you might want to try is changing around Gyarados's set. I think you're better off changing Latias's set, but it's purely preference so a change in Gyarados's set is worth a shot as well. However, this does open you up a little to Haxorus. The set shrang provided is a good option, but there's another Gyarados set that's pretty cool, namely the following set: ... Gyarados @ Leftovers \| Intimidate Impish \| 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Rest / Sleep Talk CroGyara does a good job at beating stall without Electric-type attacks. If you sac everything on your team, it can't be phazed out and safely set up unless the opponent has a Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Hidden Power Electric Vaporeon or Thunderbolt Starmie. Unfortunately, this is usually easier for stall teams to take on than the aforementioned Refresh Latias. Another thing you could try with this set is using Dragon Tail instead of Sleep Talk, as for one it allows you to phaze, but also allows you to hit Water-type immunes such as Gastrodon.

Mar 20th, 2012, 2:01:17 AM	#33
Pocket Talonflame :D Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,296 Bergenfield	It's not that hard to switch to Scarf Terrakion on the turn Gengar attempts to disable Jirachi's Iron Head and check the Ghost. Gyarados also has great special bulk to tank a non-LO Shadow Ball with relative ease. Wish support from Jirachi keeps Gyarados healthy most of the times. I've been playing around with SubSD Terrakion, and it definitely works as a stallbreaker, although I occasionally get fucked over by DDNite if I play carelessly with Gyarados and Jirachi. Without ScarfTerrakion I have no second chance against DDNite, but SubSD Terrakion is definitely worth this risk for now. I've also tried out Refresh Latias, and it is much more effective than I have imagined. The team has sufficient means of beating Volt-Turns for Latias to forego Reflect. Next up is Hone Claws Nidoking :d __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official!