Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Zacchaeus]

All of my teams failed, my only comment to make on that is that I find Destiny Bond Gengar really underwhelming. I keep running through teams to no avail but I still can't be bothered to back to the unbelievably slow and boring setup teams

BUT a new idea approaches! Considering that my Drag-Mag hyper offense team is getting slapped around the leaderboards, I have to get back on it

[atsync]

Just posting to say that I'm currently at 168 wins with Zoroark/Suicune/Dragonite. I do feel a bit lucky for getting this far because there have been some really close battles where I had to rely on getting hax in my favour to win (mainly burns from Scald; Dark Pulse flinches help too), but a streak is a streak so whatever.

So I need to win 18 more battles to match my current best, and if I manage that I'll just see how many of the people above me I can overtake. I'd like to get in the top 10, but I still need over 50 wins to get there (jeez you guys sure set the bar high).

Of course, I could lose my next battle lol. I'll post about this this streak again when it ends.

[R Inanimate]

I've started up playing Double Subway again, now that the regular SPL season has ended.

Here are some battle vids so far:

26-72324-82888
66-52221-58856
50-16768-25528
78-50402-02261

It really annoys me that I can only have 5 battle videos on the server at a time, since I tend to pick up a lot of videos to upload through playing Subway.

1000 hours of game time clocked or 1000 wins...
I wonder which I'll hit first?

[atsync]

Damn. I just lost my streak at 182 wins. I'm disappointed because not only did I fall only a few battles short of my personal best, the loss itself could have been avoided. It involved misplays (I guess) and an actual misclick.

Anyway I already posted the team but for convenience:



Zoroark @ Life Orb
Timid
IVs:31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4/0/0/252/0/252
Stats: 136/102/80/172/80/172

Dark Pulse
Flamethrower
Grass Knot
Memento



Suicune @ Leftovers
Bold
IVs:31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs: 244/0/252/0/0/12
Stats: 206/78/183/110/135/107

Scald
Calm Mind
Substitute
Rest



Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Multiscale
Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 204/252/0/0/0/52
Stats: 192/204/115/99/120/107

Outrage
Dragon Dance
Substitute
Earthquake

I already posted some information about the team here:

Yep I'm using Zoroark again. Grass Knot is more useful than Counter, extending its coverage to water and ground types. Also, Life Orb over Focus Sash! Honestly, Focus Sash isn't needed that often thanks to Illusion disguising Zoroark as Dragonite (this discourages Fighting and Bug moves, so it isn't common for Zoroark to be OHKOed). Life Orb ensures more OHKOs and 2HKOs. Should I not be able to win, I can just use Memento to help Suicune (yay I finally stopped being lazy and got one myself) or Dragonite set up and sweep. Actually I was a bit skeptical about Memento's worth and I was considering replacing it with Focus Blast or even Nasty Plot, but it has proven to be useful so it'll stay for now.

Suicune is the standard set that everyone runs. I wasn't impressed at first. Don't get me wrong, it's very good, but it didn't seem to gel with my team initially. As time has gone on however, it has proven its worth by stalling threatening stuff out of their PP, which is what it does best. It doesn't hit very hard and doesn't sweep as well as Dragonite (6+ Scald is actually pretty weak) but it makes up for it with bulk. Hell there have been times where I'll stall out PP and then switch to Dragonite and have it set up instead (it tends to sweep better due to the higher speed and better coverage).

Dragonite is actually different to the one that has been used by Jumpman, Chinese Dood, myself and others probably. It's actually closer to the one I used to use on my very first subway team: Rotom-W/Scizor/Dragonite. Substitute over Fire Punch though. Basically, instead of stalling and gradually gaining boosts, this Dragonite aims to get just a couple of boosts and sweep as quickly as possible (so no Roost or Leftovers for me). Outrage has more power than Dragon Claw so I don't need to have that many boosts to sweep (usually 2 or even 1 is enough, though the more the better). Earthquake if I'm facing a steel, or something with a contact ability like Flame Body. Earthquake is also good for killing the first opponent on the team since there's no need to lock myself into Outrage if I don't need to. Lum Berry is handy for switching into obvious status moves and it also removes Outrage-induced confusion. I'm still using the standard EV spread (Adamant with 252 att/ 204 hp/other evs in either defences or speed), but I intend to change it to max speed when I get time. Dragonite is a bit sluggish with just one DD, which isn't a problem if you have paralysis support or something but it's more concerning here since I don't have a true crippler.

Electric types have been the biggest threats so far, though it usually takes 2 electrics in a team for them to truely be dangerous (I had a close battle where Jolteon was followed by Electivire; Suicune took those Thunderpunches like a champ). Jolteon in general is a pain since it outspeeds and kills Zoroark, and obviously Suicune is screwed against it without boosts. Dragonite can OHKO it with Earthquake but it need to have Jolteon break Multiscale to do it (annoyingly, Adamant Dragonite can't outspeed Jolteon after 1 Dragon Dance even with max speed, so if Jolteon cones out when Dragonite has no boosts, I have no choice but to kill it which leaves me unboosted against the next thing that comes out).

Having Veteran Leron throw Raikou and Double Team Brightpowder Zapdos (I hate this thing so much) at me in one battle was also shitty, but Suicune was already set up and thankfully I didn't get completely screwed by Zapdos's evasion crap (I missed once after 1 Double Team but it chose to Charge Beam that turn; the next turn it Double Teamed again but I finished it off

Not much has changed really. Suicune wins MVP though, since it got me out of so many tough situations. With that in mind, Memento was being used more and more simply because it was safer. Zoroark still got its chances to shine though, especially against Psychics. Watching them repeated try to use Psychic attacks on Zoroark (as Dragonite) got me everytime. Dragonite itself wasn't used as much as Suicune but having a powerful Outrage off the bat was useful somtimes.

Probably the only thing that I'd change is Dragonite's EV spread. I WAS going to use 252 att/252 speed, but the extra bulk really helped out sometimes, especially against electrics (still the biggest threat overall). However, the HP stat I have now was designed with Leftovers in mind and now I have Lum Berry it isn't that useful anymore. Maybe enough speed to outpace positive natured base 100s could work, or even base 110s (though if I go for that I might as well just maximise my speed to get Modest Accelgor anyway).

There were many random threats I encountered, including Quiver Dance Volcarona (I Memento it and then hope that it doesn't get too lucky with Hurricane confusion and all the other potential hax it can create). But as I said, electrics are the biggest annoyance as I don't have a specific answer to them. Depot Agents are a pain to fight against, though I didn't face too many of them thankfully. However, I did face at least 6 Jolteon leads >:( Anyway, here's the log of the closest electric heavy battle:

...

---

Battle 152 vs Depot Agent Ramses
Zoroark (Dragonite) vs Jolteon

Jolteon Swaggers, I hit myself
Jolteon Thunderbolts, Zoroark dead

I send out Dragonite

Jolteon Swaggers, Lum Berry cures me, I Earthquake (Jolteon dead)

Ramses sends out Electivire

Electivire Ice Punches (102hp left), I Earthquake (Electivire dead)

Ramses sends out Zebstrika

Zebstrika Wild Charges (Electric Gem activates, crit, Dragonite dead)

I send out Suicune

Zebstrika Wild Charges (108hp left), I Substitute (69hp)
Zebstrika Wild Charges (sub breaks), I Scald (Zebstrika burnt)
Zebstrika Volt Switchs (19hp), I Scald (Zebstrika dead)

If that Scald hadn't burnt at the end there, I would have lost sooner. In fact, there were a few situations where I needed a burn to save the battle (and got it :D). Another one I remember was where I got a Scald burn on a Landorus just in time, allowing me to survive the next hit and rest of all the damage I'd taken. Funnily enough, the lead of that battle was a Zapdos with Thunderbolt, yet another electric type that annoys me.

As for how I lost, well it wasn't against an electric based team. Instead, it was against Biker Petro. He sent out Archeops. My fingers are crossed that it isn't the Choice Band one, but it is and Zoroark dies to Head Smash. I send in Suicune who takes another Head Smash and is at 69hp, while I Calm Mind (I should have subbed here probably) and recover to 79hp. Next turn, Archeops Head Smashs again to send me to 9hp and faints while I try to sub (this was the misclick, I meant to click Rest but missed ugh - don't know if it would have changed much though).

Anyway I'm in a difficult situation, but then he sends out Metagross. Suicune outspeeds 3 of the Metagross in the subway and Metagross 1 can probably be set up on by Dragonite. So I go for a Rest and I do infact outspeed it while it uses Earthquake to leave me at 173hp at the end of the turn. At this point I'm a little concerned that I'm facing the Toxic Orb Trick one as Suicune would HATE HATE HATE the toxic orb. So I decide to switch to Dragonite. Metagross decides to use Meteor Mash instead. Toxic Orb Metagross also has Meteor Mash but I suspect that it isn't the Toxic Orb one because that always goes for Trick if it can't kill. Anyway this is where I really screwed up. Basically I got cocky and went for a Dragon Dance unprotected by Substitute. Metagross uses Explosion, killing both of us. I should have used Substitute here maybe, but Dragonite and a sleeping Suicune would have died to the next thing anyway...

So now I send in my sleeping Suicune and Petro sends out Salamence. Here I'm praying it isn't the Outrage + Lum Berry one as that would guarantee my loss. But it is of course. Basically, it kills me in 3 hits, using Lum Berry after the second Outrage to cure confusion, while Suicune had to sit there and do nothing. There goes my streak, just like that.

EDIT: Here's the battle video for those who can't read the written form of it: 44-30009-35766

All in all, this was a horrible match-up despite my move choices. Lead Choice Band Archeops is ALWAYS taking something on my team down with it (I had to choose what would die and I picked Zoroark). Had I known which Metagross set I was facing I might have dealt with it better. I certainly wouldn't have switched out Suicune if I knew it wasn't the Trick set, but even then the threat of Explosion was there the whole time so setting up (let alone staying in until I woke up) would have been risky. Suicune would probably survive Explosion though. Salamence would likely kill it but then Dragonite with Multiscale would come in, hopefully survive the Outrage (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to do a damage calc) and retaliate with one of its own. At the very least, I should have waited until Suicune woke up before switching!

Also, why did Salamence have to be the last pokemon, and why that particular Salamence? Suicune probably had a chance against Salamence 1 and maybe Salamence 3 as well (Salamence 2 has Dragon Dance though, that would have been tough).

The misclick didn't really matter much, since Suicune would have been sleeping and would have switched out of Metagross anyway (remember the sleep counter resets as you switch out so Suicune would have been killed by Salamence anyway). Not using sub when Metagross exploded didn't really mean much either. I would have survived, but Salamence would have cleaned up anyway.

Whatever. I guess I should be proud of this streak because it went further than I expected it would, but the game could have waited a couple more battles before giving me that match up! I don't really feel motivated to try this team again at the moment. I guess I could try that Sturdy Choice Scarf Sawk idea I mentioned in another post, but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Fat R Inanimate

Here are some battle vids so far:

26-72324-82888
66-52221-58856
50-16768-25528
78-50402-02261

lol that Regigigas

Good Luck! I noticed that those videos had lots on wins attached to them....

[R Inanimate]

Originally Posted by Fat atsync

lol that Regigigas

Good Luck! I noticed that those videos had lots on wins attached to them....

Having troubles getting past the 300-400 wins range actually. Not much I can do when I face a Garchomp 3 (Scarf) + Tyranitar lead, with Blissey 4 (Minimize) in the back. Also, nothing quite dampens the spirit than losing to a team with Regigigas, Landorus, and Regirock while using a Rain team. I'll keep at it though.

[King Serperior]

I am wondering, but what are your experiences with each weather in the BS?

I am thinking of going with these teams:
1). Rain: SupporToed/Rain Abuse Dnite/Kingdra or Ludicolo
2). Sun: SupporTales/Speed Boost Blaziken/Venasaur
3). Sand: MixTar/SubSD Garchomp/DoubleDance Terrakion or EBelt Landy
4). Hail: MixSnow/TrickScarf Rotom-F/Heatran

I have ideas for each team. If anyone has any suggestions or wants to know a set, just ask.

Please note that they are untested....

[atsync]

I just tried out Lead Choice Scarf Sawk:

Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Sturdy
Close Combat
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Reversal

It's wonderful. Close Combat at a minimum 2HKOs so much stuff and Sturdy ensures that they die. I can even use Reversal sometimes to kill everything. Now I need to think of some good back-ups. I'm using Suicune and Scizor for now just as I test and see what Sawk can't beat. Unsurprisingly, I'll definitely want something for Psychics and Ghosts since Sawk can't touch those. Maybe Hydreigon?

[Jumpman16**]

That's a neat idea, atsync, Sturdy is broken in the Subway and for an offensive team Sawk is the best abuser with its 85 base speed. You'll almost certainly want Scizor on your team, as I've found that it is the single best pokemon in the Subway. Allow me to elaborate (your post was sure a good cue for the post I've been sitting on for a while).

I'm on spring break and I hate reading this thread and "not being able to" comment on the awesome ideas I read here just because I'm (still) behind in reading this thread. I see that Peterko posted I was at 324 about seven weeks ago. (And no, I won't tell you where I am now!) Since I find my Whimsicott team boring or at least very slow (average of 22 minutes per set if I'm paying attention), you can bet there's no way I used that team from battle one after I let myself be bored to death with my streak. So what did I do? I looked long and hard for my "Gen V Startarchomp" so I could bear the first few dozen/hundred battles, and also give myself an excuse to get back to the drawing board.

Startarchomp was my best speed (goodstuffs) team from Gen IV. The name is a portmanteau of its members' names: EB SPIT (Surf/Psy/TB/IB) Starmie (Modest, back when we could get away with it), Lum DD Jolly 252 Atk/Spe Crunch/RS/EQ Tyra, and Scarfchomp with 201 speed equipped with Choice Scarf, max attack and the rest in HP. Everything on that team, at least in DP (Plat changes made it a little worse iirc), made it fast enough to run over almost every combination the AI could throw at me and synergistic enough to weather the steady storm of every attacking type and almost every occurrence of hax that is bound to bother any goodstuffs team. Now I've already gushed about my Gen V goodstuffs team (Specs Latios/CM Cune/Wide Lens SD Terrakion), a deserved gushing after it went a good 200 battles without losing once straight from my beloved drawing board). But trying to revisit that success uncovered a rather glaring chink in the team's armor: the speed crew. I refer to the speed crew as Gengar, Froslass, Espeon, Starmie, and to some extent, the Lati twins. All these pokemon are at least 110 speed and absolutely piss on Terrakion, a pokemon that would otherwise be a top-five Subway poke. But the threat of a TB paralysis/CH on Suicune and the notion of losing a speed tie with Latios against pokemon it may not even be able to KO (I vacillated between 4-attack LO and Specs with Trick)revealed the team to be less stunning than I originally thought, given that they could all severely dent or flat-out OHKO Terrakion without even trying if it weren't Subbed.

So I got so tired of another loss to Gengar Shadow Ball hax that I asked myself: where is my Gen V Startarchomp? I knew what my problem pokes were: the six I mentioned were the only pokemon in a good 1,000 battles that posed any significant threat to my team when i executed properly. So annoyed was I with this speed crew that I decided that I wanted one, just one pokemon that could piss on all of them. While Tyranitar can indeed threaten that, better than almost every pokemon, Tyranitar frankly sucks in the Subway on a goodstuffs team given how many Sturdy pokemon there are, and to put it simply, "Ferrothorn". Yes, Fire Punch can be used to remedy this, but patching six weaknesses isn't cool at all as Terrakion barely was covered by Latios and Suicune as far as synergy is concerned in the first place and it has almost 50 Base Points in Speed on Tyra. So I decided that which ever pokemon I settled on couldn't be something that needed its teammates to cover its ass badly. I decided on Scizor, as alluded to above. But that's not the best part.

Peterko, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your Terracott team and your Cloyster team, especially because of your logs that actually give us a sense of how dominating a great team is in practice unless logs or battle videos are furnished. Reading how Cloyster shat on so many teams singlehandedly absolutely made my day, given how I have detailed my penchant for finding fast goodstuffs teams that are reliable. When you said about Cloyster that "the amount of sweeps it gets by itself is unreal", I was impressed, but I believe that I've found something that does so even more reliably byself (and it's not Scizor). Here is the team I've used on my current streak:

Haxorus (M) @ Lum Berry ** Battle Hax
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 116HP/252Atk/142Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance

Haxorus is able to DD on almost anything and sweep teams with Outrage. +1 Adamant Outrage from 147 Base Attack is pornographic, and 201 speed after DD is why this wins out over CB Moxie Salamence. Lum is perfect for it because it allow it to actual be able to Outrage everything without worry about confusion, or allow Haxorus one grace turn on a mispredicted status move it didn't shield itself from. Sub allows it to exploit the AI's most foolish flaw of spamming status moves when they "don't work", and the 15 extra HP that my EVs grant it allow it to survive a few Ice Beams and Blizzard it otherwise would not. Mold Breaker is a gigantic fuck you to Sturdy, which is so welcome given how broken Sturdy is as I've said. Pure Dragon is a real treat, as it really does not care about anything that isn't a STAB Ice or Dragon move. Which is where the other two members of my team shine, especially Scizor.

Scizor (M) @ Leftovers ** Red X Dawg
Ability: Technician
EVs: 244HP/252Atk/8Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Bullet Punch
~ Bug Bite
~ Swords Dance
~ Roost

There's almost nothing this thing can't do. It can set up on almost anything, Roost carefully, and most importantly, hard counter the speed crew. Maybe it's more important that it can revenge anything that has a Sash or somehow got by Haxorus with very low HP—Bullet Punch is perhaps the most valuable move on the whole team. It doesn't really care about Par or Burn if it has to take them because of Bullet Punch and Swords Dance respectively. Max HP because it doesn't need speed, and thankfully my third doesn't need Leftovers because they're super handy.

Starmie @ Life Orb ** Shooting *
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spd
Nature: Timid
~ Surf
~ Psyshock
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunderbolt

Ever the stopgap, Starmie fills this team out so well. The speed is necessary even with Bullet Punch Scizor, as things like Lead Garchomp4 would always sweep me after I have to break Chomp's sash with Bullet Punch on turn 2 as it SDes again (and why would it ever use Dragon Claw on Haxorus turn 1?). Life Orb is slightly better than EB for things like Magnezone and Swampert that I really want to hit hard and can't for SE damage, and, of course, Life Orb recoil can't cause a loss in Gen V so it's not too bad.

Try this team out if you're looking for quick wins. If someone put a gun to my head, I guess I'd name it "Haxzormie." I've timed myself and I did a set of seven on 8:47 once, which is just sexy as hell. I couldn't let one more day go by without posting this team, even if I have a billion other things to comment on as well...

[Zacchaeus]

Wow that's really similar to a team I'm making now (but I'm too lazy to create the last Poké) especially since I based the team around Scizor. I loooove Scizor in Subway and Dragons are gonna be Dragons. Starmie is still an enemy of mine though. But I'm glad to see someone as good as Jumpman on my mindset of really fast and easy to use teams for convenience

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

That's a neat idea, atsync, Sturdy is broken in the Subway and for an offensive team Sawk is the best abuser with its 85 base speed. You'll almost certainly want Scizor on your team, as I've found that it is the single best pokemon in the Subway. Allow me to elaborate (your post was sure a good cue for the post I've been sitting on for a while).

Yeah I've found that Scizor works quite well as a back-up, since it deals with most of the Psychic/Ghost types nicely (I have to watch out for things like Chandelure though). I'm also running leftovers but I don't have a Scizor with Roost yet (I'm too lazy to get one now and I'll probably just wait until Black and White 2 come out to see if Roost is made into a move tutor). Still using Superpower. I rarely use it and something like Substitute is probably better but I don't want to delete Superpower only to regret it later (again, maybe it'll be made into a move tutor in Black and White 2).

I tried Hydreigon as a fellow back-up but I didn't like it much. It wasn't bad since the type coverage it offers is excellent, but pairing a fire weak pokemon with a fighting weak pokemon is just asking for Infernape and Blaziken (and anything with fire/fighting coverage really) to stomp all over you. Honestly, Hydreigon has a terrible set of weaknesses anyway which is why I tend to avoid it, at least in singles.

So now I'm using Dragonite again lol.

EDIT: Just hit 70 wins with Sawk/Dragonite/Scizor, so looks like I have another team to write up! Let's see how far I can take this. Hating how the opponent keeps throwing Gyarados as a lead (4 times now), this team hates those...

[Manveru123]

Scizor's a bit overrated in my opinion. He's having trouble getting clean sweeps as even a +6 Bullet Punch is not enough to okho some pokemon who resist it (and there's a lot of fire, water etc stuff in subway), which often ends up in him being revenge killed. And if I can't get a kill with priority, I often get outsped. If I'm forced to switch, then my whole strategy goes kaput (since I'm using a crippler lead who usually cripples as much as possible and then dies, which means that my other two pokemon need to get a sweep after setting up). I don't know, maybe I'm using him wrong or something.

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Manveru123

Scizor's a bit overrated in my opinion. He's having trouble getting clean sweeps as even a +6 Bullet Punch is not enough to okho some pokemon who resist it (and there's a lot of fire, water etc stuff in subway), which often ends up in him being revenge killed. And if I can't get a kill with priority, I often get outsped. If I'm forced to switch, then my whole strategy goes kaput (since I'm using a crippler lead who usually cripples as much as possible and then dies, which means that my other two pokemon need to get a sweep after setting up). I don't know, maybe I'm using him wrong or something.

Well I do agree that Scizor is not the best sweeper out there. Bullet Punch is powerful for a priority move and it has the potential to sweep whole teams but it has poor coverage and it will have some trouble getting past faster things that resist it (especially fire types, and even the slower fire-types are problems since they resist bug too - Superpower can help a bit here though).

But sweeping is not the only thing that Scizor is meant to do in the subway. The fact is that Scizor can take on a lot of stuff by itself and win thanks to its typing and bulk. It can set up on its on just fine even without support because there are many opponents that can't touch it at all, which is handy if the other members on your team get screwed by one of the many things that Scizor beats. Of course, one shouldn't forget that Scizor is the best general check to Ice/Hail teams and Trick Room teams thanks to Bullet Punch (these are 2 of the most dangerous teams you'll ever face).

So basically, how useful Scizor is depends on what you need it to do for your team. For example, Scizor is useful for my current team because it deals with stuff that Sawk hates. Sawk can deal with ice comfortably but Froslass is a problem if I'm locked into Close Combat. Scizor deals with Froslass easily thanks to Bullet Punch. Sawk also hates Psychics and Ghosts and Scizor can deal with those simply because it walls most of them. Scizor also deals with Trick Room which Choice Scarf Sawk hates obviously. It even does ok against the flying dragons since Sawk doesn't do well against them (it has Rock Slide but the accuracy sucks and if I'm locked into something else it doesn't help anyway). Finally, Bullet Punch allows it to finish off weakened things if Sawk dies, making it a wonderful revenge killer.

Jumpman used Scizor in a similar way: to fill gaps and deal with things that trouble its team members (in his case, the so-called "speed crew"). I do think that him saying that it is the single best pokemon in the Subway is a bit of an exaggeration but Scizor is one of the most reliable pokemon ever and it isn't hard to see why Scizor has been included on many of the teams posted on the leaderboard (in singles AND doubles).

Now I don't want to say that you're using it "wrong", but I feel that using it as a sweeper on a crippler-to-sweeper team is a waste of its true talents. If you're set on using Scizor, you'll probably want Roost on it at least (you may already have it). If you want a steel type set up mon for your team... well I had success with Bisharp, but if you're willing to be patient you could use Bronzong or Registeel. Hell, even Hone Claws Metagross maybe (I've never tried it; it could work but it can't really set up very fast which is a problem if you aren't boosting its defences).

[Manveru123]

I'm not hell bent on using a steel type, it's just.. I'm using Liepard lead who, among other things, has Torment. His common switch-in is my Haxorus, with outrage/eq/dd/taunt. The combination of Torment and Taunt is so good that Haxy generally has no problems setting up. The problem is, Haxorus is very, very frail, and as such cannot take ice and dragon moves to the face at all (especially stab). So I need something that can set up on dragons and ice types (water too, to a certain extent), while at the same time is capable of doing a full sweep after setting up. If all else fails, I might go back to my Suicune :P

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by Fat PeterT

Next up: Choice Band Slaking with a Ghost- and Steeltype as backup.

Slaking/Jellicent/Ferrothorn failed. Couldn't even get to the Subway Boss.

I also fiddled around with Sky Drop Aerodactyl in Doubles, but lost my first attempt at +- 50 battles. Is it allowed to abuse the Sky Drop glitch or is that considered cheating to get a streak in the subway?

[atsync]

Yeah my streak ended last night at 118 wins. I was too lazy to post it last night so here I am now.



Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 20/252/0/0/0/236
Stats: 153/194/95/33/95/135
Sturdy

Close Combat
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Reversal



Scizor @ Leftovers
Adamant
IVs:31/31/31/8/31/31
EVs: 252/252/0/0/0/6
Stats: 177/200/120/57/100/86
Techician

Bullet Punch
Bug Bite
Superpower
Swords Dance



Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 204/252/0/0/0/52
Stats: 192/204/115/99/120/107
Multiscale

Outrage
Dragon Dance
Substitute
Earthquake

Basically Sawk came about when I was looking up viable users of Sturdy. Sawk was pretty much the only one with good attack and speed. The combination of Choice Scarf and Sturdy allows me to almost guarantee a kill, and given Sawk's power I can sometimes get 2 or even 3 kills. Mostly I use Close Combat. Rock Slide is useful for things like Volcarona and Salamence (and to some extend Gyarados but it fails to 2HKO through Intimidate which sucks). Earthquake can be used for certain Poisons (it was rarely used though). Reversal is a filler option, but if Sawk is hit down to 1hp and is forced out next turn, it can always come back in and hit opponents with a 200 power STAB attack! It seemed to be a good option since Sawk's movepool is thin. I can also use Reversal straight away if I know the opponent is going to hit me with an attack that will take me to Sturdy but won't cause a side effect (that way, I can lock myself into the more powerful Reversal from the get go). I try not to do this though because everytime I tried I would get forced out by the next thing anyway. The EVs give me 202 speed with a Choice Scarf and are used to outspeed Choice Scarf Skarmory. I think it's neat how I can get away with Adamant since the power is appreciated. Jolly would be helpful to outspeed Electrode before it paralyzes me but I prefer the power.

I already discussed why Scizor is useful above but I'm too lazy to redo it so I'll just copypaste lol:

Scizor is useful for my current team because it deals with stuff that Sawk hates. Sawk can deal with ice comfortably but Froslass is a problem if I'm locked into Close Combat. Scizor deals with Froslass easily thanks to Bullet Punch. Sawk also hates Psychics and Ghosts and Scizor can deal with those simply because it walls most of them. Scizor also deals with Trick Room which Choice Scarf Sawk hates obviously. It even does ok against the flying dragons since Sawk doesn't do well against them (it has Rock Slide but the accuracy sucks and if I'm locked into something else it doesn't help anyway). Finally, Bullet Punch allows it to finish off weakened things if Sawk dies, making it a wonderful revenge killer.

Dragonite (copied straight from my Zoroark/Suicune/Dragonite team) is the least useful member of my team but it deals with status well. Fighting resistance is always useful too. I really need to re-EV it but I can't be bothered. It's not that big of a deal.

I lost because I was impatient and couldn't wait for my computer to load the list of pokemon used by the trainer I was fighting (it was being slow).

Battle video: 92-08553-22224

Battle 119 vs. Pokemon Ranger Ivy

Ivy sent out Mienshao, I sent out Sawk

Mienshao used Fake Out, I flinched
I used Close Combat, Focus Sash, Mienshao used Hi Jump Kick, Sawk dead

I sent out Dragonite

Mienshao used Hi Jump Kick, I used Dragon Dance
Mienshao used Hi Jump Kick, I used Dragon Dance
I used Earthquake, Mienshao dead

Ivy sent out Gigalith

I used Earthquake, Sturdy, Gigalith used Stone Edge, Dragonite dead

I sent out Scizor

Gigalith's Custap Berry activates but I used Bullet Punch, Gigalith dead

Ivy sent out Togekiss

I used Bullet Punch, Togekiss used Heat Wave, Scizor dead

0-1

This could have been easily avoided if I'd been patient and thought more clearly. Sure my computer didn't load but Fake Out + Hi Jump Kick is an obvious combination for Mienshao! A simple switch to Scizor when Mienshao used Fake Out would have allowed me to save Sawk (and Sturdy) for Gigalith and Togekiss (Gigalith with Sturdy would probably have prevented a clean sweep with Sawk but Dragonite would have finished off what was left over. Still, Focus Sash Mienshao and Gigalith on the same team is kinda annoying. I suppose I could have switch Dragonite out of Gigalith instead of letting it die but Gigalith could have critted Scizor at any time with Stone Edge (switch is why I chose not to set up either; I would have needed 2 Swords Dances to OHKO Togekiss anyway). I figured that it would be safer to let Dragonite die and see if Scizor could finish them off (I thought my chances were good since Scizor can usually beat lots of things by itself, but the opponent unfortunately had a pokemon with a fire attack as a back-up so too bad).

Still, if anyone is looking for a way to make a quick streak, Choice Scarf + Sturdy Sawk provides a good way to do this and is highly recommended from me! I wonder how Sawk would do in doubles? It would be awesome if it got Fake Out...

Originally Posted by Fat Manveru123

I'm not hell bent on using a steel type, it's just.. I'm using Liepard lead who, among other things, has Torment. His common switch-in is my Haxorus, with outrage/eq/dd/taunt. The combination of Torment and Taunt is so good that Haxy generally has no problems setting up. The problem is, Haxorus is very, very frail, and as such cannot take ice and dragon moves to the face at all (especially stab). So I need something that can set up on dragons and ice types (water too, to a certain extent), while at the same time is capable of doing a full sweep after setting up. If all else fails, I might go back to my Suicune :P

Yeah Suicune will work too, though if Liepard somehow fails to cripple a dragon type lead sufficiently for some reason battles will be tough because Suicune can only set up against the more powerful dragons if they've been crippled enough. Actually, I've always thought Liepard has potential, though I'm waiting until Prankster gets released.

Originally Posted by Fat PeterT

Slaking/Jellicent/Ferrothorn failed. Couldn't even get to the Subway Boss.

I also fiddled around with Sky Drop Aerodactyl in Doubles, but lost my first attempt at +- 50 battles. Is it allowed to abuse the Sky Drop glitch or is that considered cheating to get a streak in the subway?

I think Peterko said that he wouldn't be adding any records that abuse the glitch, especially since it has been banned in other formats such as random Wifi. It would be pretty hard to pull off consistently anyway (you may think differently though since I've never tried it).

[Stay Gold]

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

I'd just like to make a post on my streak of 113 wins in the HGSS Battle Tower using one of my personal favorite teams, Starzorchomp. I know no one plays HGSS anymore and the streak isn't even good enough to make the Top 30, but this represents a big milestone for me. In addition to exceeding 100 wins,I feel like it definitely establishes me as at least decent as a Subway/Battle Tower trainer, and makes me realize how much of grown as a player in the last few months. So, here's my team.

Starmie@Life Orb
Modest Nature
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Surf
-Ice Beam

Starmies one of my favorite leads for the Battle Tower, this is just the standard set that maximizes coverage and power. I had a hard time deciding on the nature, and ironically enough, a Timid nature would have saved me from my streak-ending loss.

Scizor@Leftovers
Adamant nature
-Swords Dance
-Bug Bite
-Bullet Punch
-Superpower

Great synergy with Starmie and Garchomp here. I can brig him in very often as he resists so many supereffective attacks directed at its teammates. There are actually a decent amount of pokemon I can get an SD or 2 or 3 off against with this set. Superpower isnt used a ton, but it definitely is a life saver when it is.

Garchomp@Choice Band
Jolly nature
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Fang
-Crunch

Standard Choice Band Chomp here, I am in love with this set, and choice banded outrages have saved so many battles. Great synergy with both teammates, and I love bringing him in to take an electric attack directed at Starmie then retaliating with a CB EQ.

Anyway, I'll probably be getting with the current times and getting Black or White soon XD. I'll rush through the story mode, do some breeding, then hopefully be posting some streaks here. So, see ya until then!

[Peterko]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Peterko, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your Terracott team and your Cloyster team, especially because of your logs that actually give us a sense of how dominating a great team is in practice unless logs or battle videos are furnished. Reading how Cloyster shat on so many teams singlehandedly absolutely made my day, given how I have detailed my penchant for finding fast goodstuffs teams that are reliable. When you said about Cloyster that "the amount of sweeps it gets by itself is unreal", I was impressed, but I believe that I've found something that does so even more reliably byself (and it's not Scizor).

I´m glad that that there´s people who enjoy reading the logs, they require some effort to make, but they provide both an exceptional showcase of how a team works and are an ideal information storage room for experienced players.

Yeah, basically Cloyster made me like Singles more than Doubles for a while, it was that awesome of a feeling to lead with it. There´s few things better in Pokémon than multi-hit Icicle Spear :)

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Haxorus (M) @ Lum Berry ** Battle Hax
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 116HP/252Atk/142Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance

We need some numbers or it didn´t happen lol. Hmm, did you give Haxo 135 speed because of these guys?

134 - Bisharp 3, Breloom 23, Metagross 1

Also why 8 speed EVs on Scizor or do you have a 30 IV in Speed? Sorry for nitpicking.

Anyway, glad to see someone putting Haxorus to great use, I always wanted it to, but was stuck with Double Chop in my head lol.

Oh and it´s kind of ironic that I´m using ScarfChomp now and you´re using Timid LO Starmie, isn´t it?

Good luck to everyone´s streaks, I´ll be hopefully back in a few weeks.

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Manveru123

Scizor's a bit overrated in my opinion. He's having trouble getting clean sweeps as even a +6 Bullet Punch is not enough to okho some pokemon who resist it (and there's a lot of fire, water etc stuff in subway), which often ends up in him being revenge killed. And if I can't get a kill with priority, I often get outsped. If I'm forced to switch, then my whole strategy goes kaput (since I'm using a crippler lead who usually cripples as much as possible and then dies, which means that my other two pokemon need to get a sweep after setting up). I don't know, maybe I'm using him wrong or something.

Yeah, basically I echo what atsync has already said about Scizor's self-sufficiency, but I want to add that besides fire moves that are very easy to predict, Scizor can still beat with alarming consistency pokemon that would otherwise check it. This includes water pokemon...I can't remember the last time I gave a shit about Vaporeon, Feraligatr, Starmie, or even Suicune if Scizor had at least one SD under its belt. With 252 HP, Leftovers and Roost, it is able to get to +6 on a large number of pokemon, which is recommended so that it can actually threaten a sweep on the rest of a team.

The main reason I'm fawning over it so much, though, is as atsync mentioned—it handles stuff the rest of my team hates. In case you all can't tell, I have a fetish for Dragon-type pokemon on both Glenscarfing and Goodstuffs teams because they're so good at what they do. Moxie CB Salamence, CM/EB/LO Latios (that's four pokemon so far), Dragonite, Haxorus, SD/Scarf/CB Garchomp...they're just so fucking good. But they almost require a Steel type for coverage against would-be super effective Dragon-type moves. I really, really like Cobalion...a Sacred Sword/Iron Head/Swords Dance/Thunderwave set with Leftovers is really a great mix of offense and defense/support, but it doesn't really do so well against the speed crew, all of which pose similar problems for dragons that aren't set up (meaning I'm not exactly switching in Cobalion from lead Salamence/Garchomp against a lead Espeon or Starmie, and don't love the same switch if I were leading Latios as well. Scizor doesn't give a shit about any of that, being able to OHKO the entire speed crew save Gengar without even setting up, and Roost off resisted hits. That peace of mind is very, very welcome using a Dragon-type on a Goodstuffs team, and is a peace of mind I only recently discovered myself.

Which brings me to my next, fun question: I know that you and atsync feel I am overexaggerating a bit, or at least meant more that Scizor fits a specific role on a given team well but isn't necessarily the best. I humbly ask you and anyone else who you feel the best self-sufficient pokemon in the Subway is. Something like Whimsicott doesn't count, of course, and I would tend to disagree with an appropriate but off-the-mark "Garchomp" answer given my wide use of it in the Subway (and before, where 169 speed actually meant something). Scizor's combination of defense, immunities (to poison and sand), typing in general (one weakness and 10 useful resistances/immunities), instant recovery, SE coverage against the only other "type" that fucks its recovery (Hail), Technician no-immunity priority, and genuine ability to sweep a large portion of the Subway with just one boost color me incredulous even given how many goodstuffs teams and pokemon I've tried. Please indulge us with positing your own contendors for "Best Self-Sufficient Subway Pokemon" (where, again, I term it as such to disqualify pokemon like Shuckle and Whimsicott).

If I didn't know any better, I'd fancy a Whimsicott/Dragonite/Scizor team where Scizor has Sub over Bug Bite just because Dragonite really wouldn't care about any fire type that could kill Scizor (the only Heatran that could threaten Dragonite would lock themselves into Magma Storm or blow their wad on Overheat or try to WoW Draggy's Sub or Protect against Dragon Dances). And sometimes I don't know better, but now's not one of those times...

[VaporeonIce]

Jumpman, the top contender that comes to mind for me is Suicune. It can crush basically anything without a super-effective move that isn't (a very strong) Outrage, Thrash, or Brave Bird (as it's often bulky enough to stall out Close Combat; if you're faster, spam Sub, and if you're slower, Sub turn 1 as you should still have over 25% left, ChestoRest turn 2 as your Sub breaks, and tada! no more Close Combat). Not only that, it can mess up plenty of Pokemon that DO have a super effective move, just by getting up enough Calm Minds or Pressure stalling. It's clearly not as good as Scizor at pure offense, but it has the bulk to get away with failing to KO, giving it added protection against Brightpowder shenanigans.

[Manveru123]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Which brings me to my next, fun question: I know that you and atsync feel I am overexaggerating a bit, or at least meant more that Scizor fits a specific role on a given team well but isn't necessarily the best. I humbly ask you and anyone else who you feel the best self-sufficient pokemon in the Subway is. Something like Whimsicott doesn't count, of course, and I would tend to disagree with an appropriate but off-the-mark "Garchomp" answer given my wide use of it in the Subway (and before, where 169 speed actually meant something). Scizor's combination of defense, immunities (to poison and sand), typing in general (one weakness and 10 useful resistances/immunities), instant recovery, SE coverage against the only other "type" that fucks its recovery (Hail), Technician no-immunity priority, and genuine ability to sweep a large portion of the Subway with just one boost color me incredulous even given how many goodstuffs teams and pokemon I've tried. Please indulge us with positing your own contendors for "Best Self-Sufficient Subway Pokemon" (where, again, I term it as such to disqualify pokemon like Shuckle and Whimsicott).

In my opinion, Suicune. If it manages to set up with CM, it can only be defeated by consecutive crits.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Scizor is bad, all I'm saying is that it can be too unreliable sometimes, because he's slow (dimnishes Bug Bite and Superpower as an alternative attack) and not bulky. He resists a lot of attacks, yes, but still gets 2HKO by - for example - Bug Buzzing Yanmega without any boosts.

[Zacchaeus]

I'd say that Dragonite is the best self-sufficient Poké for Subway because as a whole Poké it can viably defeat any given Poké from Subway and can usually accomplish something close to that with one well made set like a bulky DD or CB set. It can fill multiple niches like a tank or something as specific as a rain sweeper (because it's the only good Poké to learn Hurricane and Thunder) which is too fun. It also gets great moves like ExtremeSpeed which can easily find use on many teams. Finally, Multiscale is one of the best abilities released for DW so far and it fits Dragonite's needs perfectly.

Proof: Timid 252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam against Adamant no investment Multiscale Dragonite - 69-83%
Timid 252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam against Careful 252 HP 252 SpD Salamence - 94-113%

Edit: Suicune Suicune Suicune Dragonite Gastrodon? T.T

[some_guy]

While it's not self-sufficient, I think an encouragement award should go out to Gastrodon. I would never have expected the supremely mediocre snail to be of any use in the Subway, but now it's up there towards the top of both singles and doubles.

So props for versatility to a gelatinous blob with a base stats total of 475.

[NoCheese]

Suicune is the best *self sufficient* subway pokemon, with no doubt in my mind. With a Scald/Calm Mind/Substitute/Rest Bold natured set it can switch into and set up on a ridiculous number of pokes. Dragonite is certainly one of the best subway pokes out there, but taking full advantage of Multiscale means it plays better when other pokemon first cripple the opposition than it does switching directly into an unhindered enemy pokemon's attack. Dragonite may be king with proper support, but Suicune does better when no support is given. Indeed, if you look at the top performing teams that don't use any sort of crippler, Suicune is ridiculously common. There's good reason for that!

[Chinese Dood]

With regards to self-sufficiency, for me, it's a close call between Suicune and Dragonite too.

Dragonite can set up on a lot of pokemon even without support, including a number of rock or even a few ice types. One of the major downside I find with Dragonite compared to Suicune is status really. Being statused with anything sucks for Dragonite, but Suicune with Rest (and Scald for freeze) just doesn't care. If not for that, Dragonite wins for sure, but now it's about even for me.

[atsync]

I've been rewording this a bit as I typed so bear with me :)

Jumpman, to be fair, I was only disagreeing with you when you said that it was the single best pokemon in the subway. I do agree that it is one of the most self-sufficient though. From my own experiences, I'd say that Suicune edges it out slightly (sorry for just copying what everyone else said hahaha), but honestly it is a close call because they can pretty much do the same thing anyway WITHOUT SUPPORT. This is why Dragonite is NOT the most self-sufficient because as the standard Dragon Claw/Dragon Dance/Substitute/Roost set kinda sucks without Whimsicott or some other crippler. It can set up on SOME stuff but not other things. It is still one of the best pokemon overall due to its versatility and Multiscale though, and it can fit on pretty much any team in some fashion anyway.

I guess I'll lean in favour of Suicune because it can set up on more things without assistance. I still have trouble seeing Scizor doing some of the things that Suicune did for me when I was using Zoroark (and this is WITHOUT Memento factored in). However, I'll admit that I've never used a Scizor with Roost (instant recovery is way better than Rest). Having used the Leftovers Scizor on my Sawk team, I can actually see where Roost would have come in handy at times, more so than Superpower (I used it like twice I think?). Maybe if I ever can be bothered to try it out I may change my mind.

Scizor also has the advantage of being way faster! Suicune is very slow since it's the kind of pokemon that HAS to boost as much as possible to succeed whereas Scizor can often make do with even just 1 Swords Dance (hell, I've swept with none before). Obviously it is best to get as many boosts as possible but I feel much safer with a Scizor with 1 Swords Dance boost than a Suicune with 2 Calm Minds (though on the other hand, I feel more comfortable with a Suicune with max. sp.att and sp.def than a Scizor with max. att.).

So yeah, based on my own experiences, I think Suicune is the most self-sufficient (again, I could end up changing my mind if I actually used Scizor with Substitute and Roost).

As for who is the absolute best pokemon (and this includes the dedicated cripplers like Whimsicott and Shuckle), I honestly don't know (I'm sorry for giving such a cop-out answer...). I've only play competitive Tower/Subway in 5th gen so my own experience is less than some of the other players here. I don't really feel comfortable saying "Dragonite/Suicune/Scizor/Luvdisc is the best!!!!!!" since I don't think I've played enough to know for sure (there are still tons of pokemon that I've never even used yet). I guess what I CAN so is that a pokemon is only as good as the team you put it on. I don't think there is a single set of 4 moves, nature/spread and items on a single pokemon that you can just team up with anything, though things like Bold 252hp/252def Suicune with Leftovers and Scald/Substitute/Rest/Calm Mind don't need 'as much' support as other things...

I guess that's where the question gets tricky since it depends on whether you are talking about a pokemon or a particular set of a particular pokemon. Meh...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have that out of the way...

I'm thinking of doing Multi again. I had success with dual Scarf leads before so I want to try that again. Not sure what I'll use and I may just mix-and-match to see what works best but it'll probably be something bland like Garchomp + Zapdos. I really want to get on the leaderboard!