The Art of Winning an Unfair Game: A Dark Horse RMT (Peaked #7)

toshimelonhead · Mar 13th, 2012, 10:34:48 PM

The Art of Winning an Unfair Game: A Dark Horse OU RMT

At a glance:

Introduction: I started experimenting with Sun teams after realizing that I needed a third team for Smogon Tournament 8. Though I never had to use it (SJCrew tore my heart out in R5 by beating me with two sun teams), I continued testing it because of the challenge sun provides. The team at a glance is the version that that peaked at #7 with a 1497 rating. I will also include analysis for Victini and Porygon2 when I used them as part of the Dark Horse Challenge.

The overall goal is to get a Sawsbuck sweep. Ninetales and Venusaur keep the weather up, Heatran provides Stealth Rock, Infernape tries to kill stuff, and Latias and Sawsbuck try to set up and sweep at the end.

The RMT title is the subtitle from the book Moneyball, which is fitting because this team features four dark horse pokemon. For those not familiar with the Dark Horse challenge, the goal is to try to reach the top 80 of the leaderboard with a pokemon used in less than 5 percent of all OU battles. This is similar to the challenge Billy Beane faced when leading the Oakland A’s to the playoffs with the lowest payroll in baseball after the team lost its best players to free agency.

Team Building Process

I literally have 40 different versions of this team saved over the last two months. Four spots, though, have stayed constant. Sun teams have to have Ninetales. Heatran was the next choice because it could handle Volcarona and Dragonite. Venusaur was my next choice because of how it fares against the top five used mons. Sawsbuck was the best sun sweeper I tested, so he needed a spot. The other two spots have always been up in the air. In the first Dark Horse ladder run, Latias and Infernape rounded out the team. In the second ladder run, I wanted something to tank against dragons and break stall. After testing many different members, I decided to use Porygon2 and Victini for the Dark Horse Challenge. Porygon2 was a cornerstone on a version of this team that peaked to number 12 when lag crippled the server so I figured he could replace Latias as a Dark Horse. Victini seemed like too much fun to use and with a Fighting Gem it could get rid of its biggest nemesis, Tyranitar.

Ninetales (F) @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 152 SDef / 104 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Flamethrower
- Rest

Ninetales’ sole mission is to win the weather war. It needs as much assistance in this because Ninetales does not fare well against Politoed and Tyranitar. Keeping this in mind, I focused on building a defensive Ninetales. Each of her moves focuses on controlling some aspect of the game. Will-O-Wisp is a key way of limiting Tyranitar’s effectiveness. It also provides consistent damage to Politoed when it switches in. Sunny Day sets the weather back up in my favor if I anticipate a switch to Politoed or Tyranitar. Flamethrower is my STAB move of choice because Ninetales does not need to risk an accuracy miss from Fire Blast or Overheat. Rest gives me a chance to heal off Stealth Rock damage. The EVs put Ninetales at 288 speed to outpace Jolly Mamoswine so I can try to KO it before it sets up Rocks. The rest of the EVs go into bulk to take hits from Politoed and Tyranitar.

Pet Rock (Heatran) (M) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 188 HP / 120 SDef / 200 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Ice]

When trying to think of things opposing teams struggle with, Heatran normally comes at the top of the list. I figured he would be a good fit on this team. I have used a couple of different sets and EV spreads on him; this is what I am using right now. Stealth Rock is necessary for any team. Earth Power and Fire Blast provide STAB. Hidden Power Ice is for Dragonite and other Dragons. The EVs make sure Heatran outspeeds Adamant Breloom and that it can survive 2 Outrages from Dragonite. It can also beat other Air Balloon Heatran one on one.

The set I used in the Dark Horse challenge was Lava Plume / Earth Power / Stealth Rock / Roar with the same EV spread. I am not afraid to go back to that set, but the coverage I have right now is good enough for me not to switch.

Venusaur (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed / Sunny Day

I have to say that is the best Venusaur picture I have ever seen. It also describes Venusaur’s role with the team. He is what holds this team together. With Volt Turn/U-Turn combos all of the rage, this is my best bet to stop them. Scizor’s Bullet Punch does around 40 percent when I OHKO back with Hidden Power Fire. In the sun, I outspeed non-scarfed Rotom-W and take care of them with Energy Ball. Pocket has suggested that I switch Energy Ball with Solarbeam. The problem I have found is that even though the attack power is nice, I can’t have a delay of a turn for the opponent to set up weather. Unlike a sand or rain team, sun has to be up all of the time. Since the Dark Horse team needed someone else to help Ninetales set up Sunny Day, I gave Venusaur that role. However, I prefer Leech Seed because it helps Venusaur tank more hits. The EVs make Venusaur as defensive as possible with enough speed to outspeed all non-scarfed pokemon in the sun.

Sawsbuck (Sawsbuck-Summer) (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge
- Nature Power
- Horn Leech

If things are going right, Sawsbuck is sweeping at the end of the game. With enough speed in the sun to even take out +2 Cloyster, only priority and Steel-types not harmed by Earthquake are the only thing stopping Sawsbuck from sweeping. The set should be the standard set, assuming Nature Power turns into Earthquake on PO. Double-Edge is there for taking out Dragonite at 75 percent health. The EVs are to maximize attack and speed. Since Sawsbuck is so frail, any attack is going to KO it. There is not much of a benefit to invest in any defense; just hit them before they hit you. Sawsbuck definitely deserves more love, especially on Sun teams. He is the reason that this team beats Stone Cold’s team almost every time.

At some point, I will post a table of calculations showing Double-Edge vs Return. The difference is noticeable.

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Dragon Pulse
- Refresh / Hidden Power Fire

I sometimes forget why I picked Latias in the first place. Then when she ends up cleaning up after Sawsbuck, I know why. She is an excellent pivot because no one else on this team can take Earthquakes. She also outspeeds Landorus, Terrakion, and all base 108s, which is helpful for when I need a quick kill yet do not want to use Ninetales to bring back sun up. The first three moves are standard; set up Calm Minds and clean with Dragon Pulse at the end. I used to run Hidden Power Fire to take out the Scizors and Ferrothorns of the world, but Refresh has been useful for setting up on Heatran. When I was doing the Dark Horse challenge, I replaced Latias with Porygon2. Porygon2’s weakness is that it cannot take a Toxic. Since Latias can with Refresh, she can set up on stall teams that Porygon2 cannot help much against. Refresh is also nice for the speed tie against Latios, who eats this team up if the sun is not up for Heatran to switch in.

Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Stone Edge

Infernape is one last offensive juggernaut for tearing apart stall. The difference between Infernape and Victini is notable when going up against a Skarmpiss team or one with a Heatran + Skarmory core. With Victini, this team struggles to dismantle such cores. Infernape can bust through them. This should be a standard physical Infernape set from Gen 4 with Stone Edge over U-Turn for the pesky little moth. Overheat in the sun is always fun (not as much as V-Create, of course!), and Close Combat provides decent attack power. Mach Punch is there to avoid speed ties with Terrakion.

Dark Horse Corner

Victini @ Fight Gem
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- V-create
- Fusion Bolt
- Brick Break
- U-Turn

Victini deserved to be out of UU. V-Create in the sun is too powerful down there. Up in OU, however, Tyranitar eats Victini for lunch. Most Victini are either Choice Banded, Choice Scarfed, or Life Orbed. I did not want Victini to get stuck on a move, but without a spinner, Life Orb damage wears out Victini too quickly. Then I discovered the “I Hate Tyranitar and Heatran” Fight Gem. It seems pretty silly to use something to power up a 75-base power move once, but it helps me OHKO Bulky Tyranitar and 2HKO Heatran, two of the biggest problems for this team. Fusion Bolt is for our favorite green frog, and U-Turn is filler. The only time I have used it is when Dugtrio’s Earthquake failed to OHKO Victini, which allowed me to trap Dugtrio with Porygon2.

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

Porygon2 is one of those annoying pokemon that people hate playing against. However, it walls so many things in OU that I figured that I could run it on a Dark Horse team. I once ran Porygon2 and Sableye in place of Latias and Infernape and peaked at #12 when the servers were horrible and laddering was easier. However, Latias has taken Porygon2’s place back due to Refresh. As great as Porygon2 tanks hits from Heatran, Latios, Dragonite, and Gyarados, it is a liability against stall when I need as many stallbreakers as possible. This should be the standard set with the standard EVs to handle the pokemon listed above as effectively as possible.

Problems and Concerns

Lack of a rapid spinner

I think this might be the biggest point of concern people have with this team. Entry hazards are the single biggest problem this team has to deal with. I see Forretress, Starmie, Cloyster, Donphan, and Hitmontop as the only viable spinners in OU. None of them really seems to fit very well with this team, though. Hitmontop with Intimidate and Sunny Day could work over Infernape but Hitmontop lacks recovery outside of Rest. Forretress is begging for something to set up on it, and Starmie is Tyranitar Pursuit bait, which I did not want with Latias. I tested a bulky Cloyster set but its horrid Special Defense even with EV boosts left me disappointed. The best way for me to mitigate this problem was to make sure Ninetales could recover itself when I needed sun up and that I used as few SR weak pokemon as possible. It is not the best solution, but it is a reason why I do not run Volcarona.

Winning the Weather War

This team has to win the weather war in order to win the game. Latios, Tornadus, Gengar, and Choice Scarf Landorus tear this team apart without Sun because I have nothing to outspeed them. Once the weather is up, Sawsbuck can revenge them (Venusaur takes care of Gengar, kinda) but otherwise I am in a tough situation. Scarf Politoed and Tyranitar are also a problem if I do not see that their weather shows up before mine on the first turn.

Conclusion

This team still rocks despite its flaws. Even though it is not perfect, it provided me with a chance to use a challenging playstyle. Shoutouts (in no particular order) go out to Eternal, AlphaJolt, walrusman, Lunar, noodlez, Stone_Cold, Pocket, Birkal, and Delko for being awesome. Thanks for reading. Rate, hate, steal, luvdisc, I do not care (well, my ego does like to see luvdiscs). Anyways, I’ll close on this:

Final Look

Importable

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**Pocket** · Mar 15th, 2012, 4:57:58 AM

Solid team, toshi!

Ninetales only need 286 Speed to outrun Mamoswine, btw, not 288. I also think Ninetales would fare better against residual damage if you dump Chesto Rest for Lefties & Protect, or just Lefties alone. Protect also racks up burn damage on Politoed and Tyranitar. Roar is another option to prevent Ninetales from being easy set-up bait.

Have you considered Flare Blitz over either Stone Edge or Mach Punch on Infernape? With both Flare Blitz and Overheat, Infernape can truly utilize Sun's blessings, and be an unwallable Sweeper. It can 2HKO Latias, especially with Rocks (48-57%). Latias sets up on a good portion of this team, so this extra damage can minimize her chance of being too much of a nuisance.

Ideally, Flare Blitz would go over Mach Punch, since Stone Edge is still handy to hit Gyarados and Dragonite harder. However, I can see how you would still want Mach Punch to deal with Scarf Tar.

Alternatively, you may want to consider NP Infernape. Infernape would often not need the NP boost, but it certainly comes in handy when you need to burst open stall teams. +2 Sunny FB takes out Dragonite and Max HP Gyarados after SR. Salamence, Haxorus, Hydreigon goes down even without SR. +0 FB is a 2HKO on Latios with Rocks. +2 Grass Knot takes out Jellicent, Slowbro, and mixed Hippowdon that forces out your current set.

NP Infernape

I think you can minimize hazards if you make Latias a more offensive variant with Hidden Power Fire. This would prevent Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Deoxys-D from easily setting up Spikes on any of your team. It would be cool to give this Latias Healing Wish or Wish. Healing Wish would help Infernape and Sawsbuck to recover off LO recoils and hazards damage, while Wish may be more useful for keeping your defensive mons healthy. Unlike Healing Wish, Wish is not one-time use, and can be used on Latias herself. However, Wish forces Latias to run max HP, and Healing Wish is the safest way to heal your LO Sweepers.

This is what I'm thinking:

Offensive Latias

Since by going offensive Latias does not take Special hits too well, you may want to go specially defensive on Venusaur. It makes quite a good special wall against Water-types, tbh. Even going specially defensive, Venusaur still stomaches CB Bullet Punch fine. I gave it some SpA EVs to have a high chance to OHKO Starmie after LO recoil (or an OHKO after Rocks).

Specially Defensive Venusaur

Also if you want something on Latias's slot that can better deal with ScarfTar and Landorus, then a Katakiri's physically bulky Rotom-W may not be a bad option. It is not Spikes bait with Volt Switch, and it provides a solid check to Rain and Sand as well. Scarf Rotom-W may also be an option if you want a weather-independent revenge killer.

bulky Rotom-W

Anyways, your team is solid already. These are just some ideas that you may want to try out :d. Keep on having fun with this team!

toshimelonhead · Mar 15th, 2012, 2:26:04 PM

Thank you Pocket for the rate. I am going to try that Venusaur, perhaps even move those EVs to defense at first but I definitely notice that Venusaur lacks attacking power at times. I'll try the other sets as well when the server is back to normal.

@Lefties I don't quite understand what you are saying.

**McMeghan** · Mar 15th, 2012, 3:56:47 PM

Nobody does...

Basically he said that your team is pretty good with a good offensive core. He's sayin you're really SR weak tho, and Dugtrio is a huge weakness. He's suggesting you to put a spinner somewhere that will let you play with ninetales safer while keeping an offensive momentum longer.

ZoroDark · Mar 15th, 2012, 4:07:06 PM

I love sawsbuck to, i really do. But in OU it's countered that easy with those ferros and bullet punches flying around. Give him a fire move like 'fire kick' or something and it sweeps that easy. Like the team and lol Stone_Cold from losing to you!

toshimelonhead · Mar 15th, 2012, 11:24:43 PM

Quote:

Basically he said that your team is pretty good with a good offensive core. He's sayin you're really SR weak tho, and Dugtrio is a huge weakness. He's suggesting you to put a spinner somewhere that will let you play with ninetales safer while keeping an offensive momentum longer.

Thanks McMeghan for the clarification. While this seems like a good idea, I don't know what spinner would add enough value to the team. Starmie? Cloyster? Donphan?

toshimelonhead · Mar 17th, 2012, 4:58:00 PM

Just a quick update. Pocket's Latias and Venusaur sets have been really helpful so I'll be switching those sets in for what I have.

toshimelonhead · Mar 20th, 2012, 10:38:36 PM

I'm bumping this. Just checked the RMT rules so that this isn't illegal. I found Pocket's sets useful, but I want a second opinion before replacing any of my current sets just in case. I'm also thinking of changing Heatran's EVs back to the normal spread. Thoughts?

Motagua · Mar 20th, 2012, 11:45:08 PM

Hey there toshimelonhead! I remember playing a lot against you in Smogon ladder. I remember battling some of your test Sun teams and you pretty much had good synergy and excellent skills. This Sun team is really balanced and it is hard to replace something because you already deal good enough with the omniprescent threats of the OU metagame, of course, if you win the weather wars which I don´t see difficult with your current sets and your playstyle.

I definitely back up Pocket´s suggestions mainly because an offensive CM Latias is almost unstoppable under Sun and a bulky Venusaur is a nasty surprise for Scizors thinking they can OHKO/2HKO him with Bullet Punch. My suggestion is to try-out a CB Infernape over your current set. A Choice Band Infernape, powered up by the ridiculous power sunshine offers will ravage anything that doesnt resist Flare Blitz (Heatran says hi to Close Comabat!). It still allows you to scout and deal massive damage.

Choice Band Infernape

I made some calculations with CB Infernape below for you:

Calculations with Jolly 252 Atk/252 Speed Choice Band Infernape

toshimelonhead · Mar 20th, 2012, 11:54:23 PM

Quote:

Hey there toshimelonhead! I remember playing a lot against you in Smogon ladder. I remember battling some of your test Sun teams and you pretty much had good synergy and excellent skills. This Sun team is really balanced and it is hard to replace something because you already deal good enough with the omniprescent threats of the OU metagame, of course, if you win the weather wars which I don´t see difficult with your current sets and your playstyle.

I definitely back up Pocket´s suggestions mainly because an offensive CM Latias is almost unstoppable under Sun and a bulky Venusaur is a nasty surprise for Scizors thinking they can OHKO/2HKO him with Bullet Punch. My suggestion is to try-out a CB Infernape over your current set. A Choice Band Infernape, powered up by the ridiculous power sunshine offers will ravage anything that doesnt resist Flare Blitz (Heatran says hi to Close Comabat!). It still allows you to scout and deal massive damage.

Thanks for the rate! CB Infernape actually sounds very tempting. Even adding U-Turn would allow me to bring Ninetales or Venusaur to bring up rain so I can put more damage into Politoed or the Latis. For Latias, I have tried Pocket's set with both Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse. I'm going to try his set with Calm Mind over the weekend. I guess for Venusaur the question is whether or not to invest in Special Attack and Special Defense. I should probably switch to Pocket's spread for Venusaur...time to test that again.

**Pocket** · Mar 21st, 2012, 12:09:53 AM

Thanks for supporting my suggestions, Motagua! Give CBNape a whirl. I am a little apprehensive, though, since Infernape's quality as a versatile Pokemon is somewhat reduced by being choice-locked. You can simply go Overheat - Close Combat - Flare Blitz - U-turn @ LO for the desired effect without forcing Infernape locked into a move. CB is worth a test drive, though.

Speaking of CB, CB Sawsbuck may be pretty cool. Once Steel and Ghost-types are eliminated, it can pretty much spam CB Double-Edge and devastate everything. Return can go over Swords Dance for a non-recoil clean up option, although Baton Pass and Jump Kick are also good choice. Should not be too hard to remove Steel-types, seeing how this is a Sun team, and Ghost-types not named Chandelure are 2HKOed by Horn Leech. OK, it wont be easy, but it will be still interesting to try out :d

Mar 15th, 2012, 4:57:58 AM	#2
Pocket Bakuman ;< Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,188 Bergenfield	Solid team, toshi! Ninetales only need 286 Speed to outrun Mamoswine, btw, not 288. I also think Ninetales would fare better against residual damage if you dump Chesto Rest for Lefties & Protect, or just Lefties alone. Protect also racks up burn damage on Politoed and Tyranitar. Roar is another option to prevent Ninetales from being easy set-up bait. Have you considered Flare Blitz over either Stone Edge or Mach Punch on Infernape? With both Flare Blitz and Overheat, Infernape can truly utilize Sun's blessings, and be an unwallable Sweeper. It can 2HKO Latias, especially with Rocks (48-57%). Latias sets up on a good portion of this team, so this extra damage can minimize her chance of being too much of a nuisance. Ideally, Flare Blitz would go over Mach Punch, since Stone Edge is still handy to hit Gyarados and Dragonite harder. However, I can see how you would still want Mach Punch to deal with Scarf Tar. Alternatively, you may want to consider NP Infernape. Infernape would often not need the NP boost, but it certainly comes in handy when you need to burst open stall teams. +2 Sunny FB takes out Dragonite and Max HP Gyarados after SR. Salamence, Haxorus, Hydreigon goes down even without SR. +0 FB is a 2HKO on Latios with Rocks. +2 Grass Knot takes out Jellicent, Slowbro, and mixed Hippowdon that forces out your current set. NP Infernape Infernape @ Life Orb Trait: Blaze EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SpA / 252 Spe Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD) - Fire Blast - Close Combat - Nasty Plot - Grass Knot Those Atk EVs still provide Infernape some oomph in its Close Combat to have a high chance at still scoring an OHKO on Max HP Heatran (w/ Rocks) and Max / Max Blissey (w/o Rocks). Thanks to LO and Sun boost, Infernape's SpA is still dishing damage, and NP would make this a NUKE. I think you can minimize hazards if you make Latias a more offensive variant with Hidden Power Fire. This would prevent Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Deoxys-D from easily setting up Spikes on any of your team. It would be cool to give this Latias Healing Wish or Wish. Healing Wish would help Infernape and Sawsbuck to recover off LO recoils and hazards damage, while Wish may be more useful for keeping your defensive mons healthy. Unlike Healing Wish, Wish is not one-time use, and can be used on Latias herself. However, Wish forces Latias to run max HP, and Healing Wish is the safest way to heal your LO Sweepers. This is what I'm thinking: Offensive Latias Latias @ Leftovers / Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk) - Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse - Calm Mind - Hidden Power [Fire] - Healing Wish An offensive CM Sweeper with the ability to heal your team. This will make Latias a more formidable team member, while still possessing the typing necessary to maintain its defensive utility. Put holes in opposing teams by firing off Draco Meteor / HP Fire, and Calm Mind is there when Latias needs the extra punch. Late-game it can throw away herself to rescue one of your mons with Healing Wish. Wish could work, too, but then Latias would want max HP for maximal Wish passing, which would hinder its offensive capabilities. This is definitely different from the Latias you have been using, so it may require some time to gain familiarity. Since by going offensive Latias does not take Special hits too well, you may want to go specially defensive on Venusaur. It makes quite a good special wall against Water-types, tbh. Even going specially defensive, Venusaur still stomaches CB Bullet Punch fine. I gave it some SpA EVs to have a high chance to OHKO Starmie after LO recoil (or an OHKO after Rocks). Specially Defensive Venusaur Venusaur @ Leftovers Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 208 HP / 152 SpA / 136 SpD / 12 Spe Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk) - Energy Ball - Sleep Powder - Leech Seed - Hidden Power Fire Also if you want something on Latias's slot that can better deal with ScarfTar and Landorus, then a Katakiri's physically bulky Rotom-W may not be a bad option. It is not Spikes bait with Volt Switch, and it provides a solid check to Rain and Sand as well. Scarf Rotom-W may also be an option if you want a weather-independent revenge killer. bulky Rotom-W Rotom-W @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpA Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Volt Switch - Hydro Pump - Thunder Wave - Hidden Power [Fire] / Sunny Day Enough SpA to 3HKO Tyranitar most of the times without Rocks with Hydro Pump and rest pumped into HP and Def. It would be serving as a defensive pivot, Volt Switching most of the times forcing switches. Thunder Wave can come in handy to cripple any Sweepers that attempts to set-up on Rotom-W. HP Fire is handy against Grass-types and Scizor, but Rotom-W can certainly act as a back-up Sunny Day Pokemon for the team, especially since no other weather summoners (other than Abomasnow) would want to switch into Rotom-W. Anyways, your team is solid already. These are just some ideas that you may want to try out :d. Keep on having fun with this team! __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official! Last edited by Pocket; Mar 15th, 2012 at 5:12:45 AM.

Mar 15th, 2012, 2:26:04 PM	#3
toshimelonhead cool dude likes melonade Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 879 Snowpoint City	Thank you Pocket for the rate. I am going to try that Venusaur, perhaps even move those EVs to defense at first but I definitely notice that Venusaur lacks attacking power at times. I'll try the other sets as well when the server is back to normal. @Lefties I don't quite understand what you are saying. __________________ 01[21:11] <@toshimelonhead> nova you are one lucky son of a gun [21:11] <@Novaray> hahahahaha [21:11] <@durrr> whys he lucky [21:12] <@Colchonero> maybe he got a date with jason's cousin [21:12] <@Novaray> LOL 01[21:12] <@toshimelonhead> rofl [21:13] <@durrr> HAHAHAHHA gtfo shes mine

Mar 15th, 2012, 3:56:47 PM	#4
McMeghan Dreamcatcher Moderator Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,203 Belgium Mentor	Nobody does... Basically he said that your team is pretty good with a good offensive core. He's sayin you're really SR weak tho, and Dugtrio is a huge weakness. He's suggesting you to put a spinner somewhere that will let you play with ninetales safer while keeping an offensive momentum longer. __________________ To every person who is eligible to play for Benelux (Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg), contact me by PM or on IRC in the #benelux channel.

Mar 15th, 2012, 4:07:06 PM	#5
ZoroDark Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 159 Belgium	I love sawsbuck to, i really do. But in OU it's countered that easy with those ferros and bullet punches flying around. Give him a fire move like 'fire kick' or something and it sweeps that easy. Like the team and lol Stone_Cold from losing to you! __________________ Use a Super Rod! http://chzpokememes.files.wordpress....-super-rod.gif

Mar 20th, 2012, 10:38:36 PM	#8
toshimelonhead cool dude likes melonade Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 879 Snowpoint City	I'm bumping this. Just checked the RMT rules so that this isn't illegal. I found Pocket's sets useful, but I want a second opinion before replacing any of my current sets just in case. I'm also thinking of changing Heatran's EVs back to the normal spread. Thoughts? __________________ 01[21:11] <@toshimelonhead> nova you are one lucky son of a gun [21:11] <@Novaray> hahahahaha [21:11] <@durrr> whys he lucky [21:12] <@Colchonero> maybe he got a date with jason's cousin [21:12] <@Novaray> LOL 01[21:12] <@toshimelonhead> rofl [21:13] <@durrr> HAHAHAHHA gtfo shes mine

Mar 13th, 2012, 10:34:48 PM	#1
toshimelonhead cool dude likes melonade Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 879 Snowpoint City	The Art of Winning an Unfair Game: A Dark Horse RMT (Peaked #7) The Art of Winning an Unfair Game: A Dark Horse OU RMT At a glance: Introduction: I started experimenting with Sun teams after realizing that I needed a third team for Smogon Tournament 8. Though I never had to use it (SJCrew tore my heart out in R5 by beating me with two sun teams), I continued testing it because of the challenge sun provides. The team at a glance is the version that that peaked at #7 with a 1497 rating. I will also include analysis for Victini and Porygon2 when I used them as part of the Dark Horse Challenge. The overall goal is to get a Sawsbuck sweep. Ninetales and Venusaur keep the weather up, Heatran provides Stealth Rock, Infernape tries to kill stuff, and Latias and Sawsbuck try to set up and sweep at the end. The RMT title is the subtitle from the book Moneyball, which is fitting because this team features four dark horse pokemon. For those not familiar with the Dark Horse challenge, the goal is to try to reach the top 80 of the leaderboard with a pokemon used in less than 5 percent of all OU battles. This is similar to the challenge Billy Beane faced when leading the Oakland A’s to the playoffs with the lowest payroll in baseball after the team lost its best players to free agency. Team Building Process I literally have 40 different versions of this team saved over the last two months. Four spots, though, have stayed constant. Sun teams have to have Ninetales. Heatran was the next choice because it could handle Volcarona and Dragonite. Venusaur was my next choice because of how it fares against the top five used mons. Sawsbuck was the best sun sweeper I tested, so he needed a spot. The other two spots have always been up in the air. In the first Dark Horse ladder run, Latias and Infernape rounded out the team. In the second ladder run, I wanted something to tank against dragons and break stall. After testing many different members, I decided to use Porygon2 and Victini for the Dark Horse Challenge. Porygon2 was a cornerstone on a version of this team that peaked to number 12 when lag crippled the server so I figured he could replace Latias as a Dark Horse. Victini seemed like too much fun to use and with a Fighting Gem it could get rid of its biggest nemesis, Tyranitar. Ninetales (F) @ Chesto Berry Trait: Drought EVs: 252 HP / 152 SDef / 104 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Will-O-Wisp - Sunny Day - Flamethrower - Rest Ninetales’ sole mission is to win the weather war. It needs as much assistance in this because Ninetales does not fare well against Politoed and Tyranitar. Keeping this in mind, I focused on building a defensive Ninetales. Each of her moves focuses on controlling some aspect of the game. Will-O-Wisp is a key way of limiting Tyranitar’s effectiveness. It also provides consistent damage to Politoed when it switches in. Sunny Day sets the weather back up in my favor if I anticipate a switch to Politoed or Tyranitar. Flamethrower is my STAB move of choice because Ninetales does not need to risk an accuracy miss from Fire Blast or Overheat. Rest gives me a chance to heal off Stealth Rock damage. The EVs put Ninetales at 288 speed to outpace Jolly Mamoswine so I can try to KO it before it sets up Rocks. The rest of the EVs go into bulk to take hits from Politoed and Tyranitar. Pet Rock (Heatran) (M) @ Air Balloon Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 188 HP / 120 SDef / 200 Spd Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Earth Power - Fire Blast - Stealth Rock - Hidden Power [Ice] When trying to think of things opposing teams struggle with, Heatran normally comes at the top of the list. I figured he would be a good fit on this team. I have used a couple of different sets and EV spreads on him; this is what I am using right now. Stealth Rock is necessary for any team. Earth Power and Fire Blast provide STAB. Hidden Power Ice is for Dragonite and other Dragons. The EVs make sure Heatran outspeeds Adamant Breloom and that it can survive 2 Outrages from Dragonite. It can also beat other Air Balloon Heatran one on one. The set I used in the Dark Horse challenge was Lava Plume / Earth Power / Stealth Rock / Roar with the same EV spread. I am not afraid to go back to that set, but the coverage I have right now is good enough for me not to switch. Venusaur (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spd Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Sleep Powder - Energy Ball - Hidden Power [Fire] - Leech Seed / Sunny Day I have to say that is the best Venusaur picture I have ever seen. It also describes Venusaur’s role with the team. He is what holds this team together. With Volt Turn/U-Turn combos all of the rage, this is my best bet to stop them. Scizor’s Bullet Punch does around 40 percent when I OHKO back with Hidden Power Fire. In the sun, I outspeed non-scarfed Rotom-W and take care of them with Energy Ball. Pocket has suggested that I switch Energy Ball with Solarbeam. The problem I have found is that even though the attack power is nice, I can’t have a delay of a turn for the opponent to set up weather. Unlike a sand or rain team, sun has to be up all of the time. Since the Dark Horse team needed someone else to help Ninetales set up Sunny Day, I gave Venusaur that role. However, I prefer Leech Seed because it helps Venusaur tank more hits. The EVs make Venusaur as defensive as possible with enough speed to outspeed all non-scarfed pokemon in the sun. Sawsbuck (Sawsbuck-Summer) (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Swords Dance - Double-Edge - Nature Power - Horn Leech If things are going right, Sawsbuck is sweeping at the end of the game. With enough speed in the sun to even take out +2 Cloyster, only priority and Steel-types not harmed by Earthquake are the only thing stopping Sawsbuck from sweeping. The set should be the standard set, assuming Nature Power turns into Earthquake on PO. Double-Edge is there for taking out Dragonite at 75 percent health. The EVs are to maximize attack and speed. Since Sawsbuck is so frail, any attack is going to KO it. There is not much of a benefit to invest in any defense; just hit them before they hit you. Sawsbuck definitely deserves more love, especially on Sun teams. He is the reason that this team beats Stone Cold’s team almost every time. At some point, I will post a table of calculations showing Double-Edge vs Return. The difference is noticeable. Latias (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Calm Mind - Recover - Dragon Pulse - Refresh / Hidden Power Fire I sometimes forget why I picked Latias in the first place. Then when she ends up cleaning up after Sawsbuck, I know why. She is an excellent pivot because no one else on this team can take Earthquakes. She also outspeeds Landorus, Terrakion, and all base 108s, which is helpful for when I need a quick kill yet do not want to use Ninetales to bring back sun up. The first three moves are standard; set up Calm Minds and clean with Dragon Pulse at the end. I used to run Hidden Power Fire to take out the Scizors and Ferrothorns of the world, but Refresh has been useful for setting up on Heatran. When I was doing the Dark Horse challenge, I replaced Latias with Porygon2. Porygon2’s weakness is that it cannot take a Toxic. Since Latias can with Refresh, she can set up on stall teams that Porygon2 cannot help much against. Refresh is also nice for the speed tie against Latios, who eats this team up if the sun is not up for Heatran to switch in. Infernape (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Blaze EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef) - Overheat - Close Combat - Mach Punch - Stone Edge Infernape is one last offensive juggernaut for tearing apart stall. The difference between Infernape and Victini is notable when going up against a Skarmpiss team or one with a Heatran + Skarmory core. With Victini, this team struggles to dismantle such cores. Infernape can bust through them. This should be a standard physical Infernape set from Gen 4 with Stone Edge over U-Turn for the pesky little moth. Overheat in the sun is always fun (not as much as V-Create, of course!), and Close Combat provides decent attack power. Mach Punch is there to avoid speed ties with Terrakion. Dark Horse Corner Victini @ Fight Gem Trait: Victory Star EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - V-create - Fusion Bolt - Brick Break - U-Turn Victini deserved to be out of UU. V-Create in the sun is too powerful down there. Up in OU, however, Tyranitar eats Victini for lunch. Most Victini are either Choice Banded, Choice Scarfed, or Life Orbed. I did not want Victini to get stuck on a move, but without a spinner, Life Orb damage wears out Victini too quickly. Then I discovered the “I Hate Tyranitar and Heatran” Fight Gem. It seems pretty silly to use something to power up a 75-base power move once, but it helps me OHKO Bulky Tyranitar and 2HKO Heatran, two of the biggest problems for this team. Fusion Bolt is for our favorite green frog, and U-Turn is filler. The only time I have used it is when Dugtrio’s Earthquake failed to OHKO Victini, which allowed me to trap Dugtrio with Porygon2. Porygon2 @ Eviolite Trait: Trace EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SDef Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Thunderbolt - Ice Beam - Toxic - Recover Porygon2 is one of those annoying pokemon that people hate playing against. However, it walls so many things in OU that I figured that I could run it on a Dark Horse team. I once ran Porygon2 and Sableye in place of Latias and Infernape and peaked at #12 when the servers were horrible and laddering was easier. However, Latias has taken Porygon2’s place back due to Refresh. As great as Porygon2 tanks hits from Heatran, Latios, Dragonite, and Gyarados, it is a liability against stall when I need as many stallbreakers as possible. This should be the standard set with the standard EVs to handle the pokemon listed above as effectively as possible. Problems and Concerns Lack of a rapid spinner I think this might be the biggest point of concern people have with this team. Entry hazards are the single biggest problem this team has to deal with. I see Forretress, Starmie, Cloyster, Donphan, and Hitmontop as the only viable spinners in OU. None of them really seems to fit very well with this team, though. Hitmontop with Intimidate and Sunny Day could work over Infernape but Hitmontop lacks recovery outside of Rest. Forretress is begging for something to set up on it, and Starmie is Tyranitar Pursuit bait, which I did not want with Latias. I tested a bulky Cloyster set but its horrid Special Defense even with EV boosts left me disappointed. The best way for me to mitigate this problem was to make sure Ninetales could recover itself when I needed sun up and that I used as few SR weak pokemon as possible. It is not the best solution, but it is a reason why I do not run Volcarona. Winning the Weather War This team has to win the weather war in order to win the game. Latios, Tornadus, Gengar, and Choice Scarf Landorus tear this team apart without Sun because I have nothing to outspeed them. Once the weather is up, Sawsbuck can revenge them (Venusaur takes care of Gengar, kinda) but otherwise I am in a tough situation. Scarf Politoed and Tyranitar are also a problem if I do not see that their weather shows up before mine on the first turn. Conclusion This team still rocks despite its flaws. Even though it is not perfect, it provided me with a chance to use a challenging playstyle. Shoutouts (in no particular order) go out to Eternal, AlphaJolt, walrusman, Lunar, noodlez, Stone_Cold, Pocket, Birkal, and Delko for being awesome. Thanks for reading. Rate, hate, steal, luvdisc, I do not care (well, my ego does like to see luvdiscs). Anyways, I’ll close on this: Final Look Importable ... Marijuana (Venusaur) (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spd Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Sleep Powder - Energy Ball - Hidden Power [Fire] - Leech Seed Elastigirl (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Refresh - Calm Mind - Recover - Dragon Pulse OrphanAnnie (Ninetales) (F) @ Chesto Berry Trait: Drought EVs: 252 HP / 152 SDef / 104 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Sunny Day - Will-O-Wisp - Flamethrower - Rest Pet Rock (Heatran) (M) @ Air Balloon Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 188 HP / 120 SDef / 200 Spd Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Earth Power - Fire Blast - Stealth Rock - Hidden Power [Ice] FeartheDeer (Sawsbuck-Summer) (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Swords Dance - Double-Edge - Nature Power - Horn Leech GorillaGlue (Infernape) (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Iron Fist EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef) - Overheat - Close Combat - Mach Punch - Stone Edge __________________ 01[21:11] <@toshimelonhead> nova you are one lucky son of a gun [21:11] <@Novaray> hahahahaha [21:11] <@durrr> whys he lucky [21:12] <@Colchonero> maybe he got a date with jason's cousin [21:12] <@Novaray> LOL 01[21:12] <@toshimelonhead> rofl [21:13] <@durrr> HAHAHAHHA gtfo shes mine Last edited by toshimelonhead; Jul 29th, 2012 at 12:58:01 PM.

Mar 17th, 2012, 4:58:00 PM	#7
toshimelonhead cool dude likes melonade Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 879 Snowpoint City	Just a quick update. Pocket's Latias and Venusaur sets have been really helpful so I'll be switching those sets in for what I have. __________________ 01[21:11] <@toshimelonhead> nova you are one lucky son of a gun [21:11] <@Novaray> hahahahaha [21:11] <@durrr> whys he lucky [21:12] <@Colchonero> maybe he got a date with jason's cousin [21:12] <@Novaray> LOL 01[21:12] <@toshimelonhead> rofl [21:13] <@durrr> HAHAHAHHA gtfo shes mine

Mar 20th, 2012, 11:45:08 PM	#9
Motagua El Ciclón Azul Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 190 Honduras	Hey there toshimelonhead! I remember playing a lot against you in Smogon ladder. I remember battling some of your test Sun teams and you pretty much had good synergy and excellent skills. This Sun team is really balanced and it is hard to replace something because you already deal good enough with the omniprescent threats of the OU metagame, of course, if you win the weather wars which I don´t see difficult with your current sets and your playstyle. I definitely back up Pocket´s suggestions mainly because an offensive CM Latias is almost unstoppable under Sun and a bulky Venusaur is a nasty surprise for Scizors thinking they can OHKO/2HKO him with Bullet Punch. My suggestion is to try-out a CB Infernape over your current set. A Choice Band Infernape, powered up by the ridiculous power sunshine offers will ravage anything that doesnt resist Flare Blitz (Heatran says hi to Close Comabat!). It still allows you to scout and deal massive damage. Choice Band Infernape Infernape (M) @ Choice Band Trait: Blaze EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - U-turn - Flare Blitz - Mach Punch / Stone Edge - Close Combat I made some calculations with CB Infernape below for you: Calculations with Jolly 252 Atk/252 Speed Choice Band Infernape CB Flare Blitz vs 248 HP/216 +Def Jellicent (Under Sun) = 43.42% - 51.36% CB Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/184 +Def Gliscor (Under Sun) = 68.93% - 81.36% (Perfect 2HKO after SR even after Protect). CB Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/252 +Def Donphan (Under Sun) = 61.98% - 73.44% (Clean 2HKO). CB Flare Blitz vs 0 HP/0 Def Dragonite (Under Sun)(MS Broken) = 58.33% - 68.75% (2HKO after SR). CB U-turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios = 78.81% - 92.72% (Possible OHKO after SR). CB U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Latias = 58.79& - 69.78% (Clean 2HKO). CB Mach Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion [-1 Def] = 85.19% - 100.93% (6.25% chance to OHKO). CB Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 +Def Politoed = 56.61 - 66.67% (Clean 2HKO). CB Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/240 +Def Tentacruel (Under Sun) = 48.9% - 57.69% (2HKO after SR). CB Flare Blitz vs 4 HP/0 Def Rotom-W (Under Sun) = 73.44% - 86.72% (Clean 2HKO). CB Stone Edge vs 56 HP/0 Def Gyarados = 98.55% - 116.52% (High chance to OHKO). CB Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Salamence (after Intimidate) = 68.28% - 80.36% (Clean 2HKO). CB Stone Edge vs 176 HP/0 Def Gyarados (after Intimidate) = 51.73% - 61.33% (Clean 2HKO).

Mar 21st, 2012, 12:09:53 AM	#11
Pocket Bakuman ;< Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,188 Bergenfield	Thanks for supporting my suggestions, Motagua! Give CBNape a whirl. I am a little apprehensive, though, since Infernape's quality as a versatile Pokemon is somewhat reduced by being choice-locked. You can simply go Overheat - Close Combat - Flare Blitz - U-turn @ LO for the desired effect without forcing Infernape locked into a move. CB is worth a test drive, though. Speaking of CB, CB Sawsbuck may be pretty cool. Once Steel and Ghost-types are eliminated, it can pretty much spam CB Double-Edge and devastate everything. Return can go over Swords Dance for a non-recoil clean up option, although Baton Pass and Jump Kick are also good choice. Should not be too hard to remove Steel-types, seeing how this is a Sun team, and Ghost-types not named Chandelure are 2HKOed by Horn Leech. OK, it wont be easy, but it will be still interesting to try out :d __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official!