Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Chinese Dood]

Hmm... the standard DD / Sub / Roost / Dragon Claw Dragonite CAN set up on a lot of things even without any support.

It can set up on basically any rock type that it can outspeed after 1 DD, and it can usually beat those ice and water types that only have blizzard as their only ice move, and plenty more that can only hit it for neutral with their STAB just by (DD + ) Sub-Roosting to PP-stall.

I suppose Suicune does set up on more pokemon more easily though.

[atsync]

Well I can only go from what I have experienced and I've found this particular Dragonite set without crippler support to be a tad disappointing.

I mean, you say that it do all of those things with a Dragon Dance boost, but what about if you DON'T have the Dragon Dance that you say it needs to do all that PP stalling? Multiscale may protect you from a crit, but being so slow is just asking for a flinch, status or defence drop from anything faster to screw you. Hell Dragonite only had 160 speed after 1 boost (assuming you have flawless IVs, you use the 204HP/252att spread with an Adamant nature and you put all the leftover points in speed for 107) so it still gets outsped by many things which means you're going to take 2 hits before you can stall them properly. Obviously I'm not going to care much about burn, but what are you going to do if you get hit by Toxic, or frozen by Blizzard, before you have enough speed? Roost helps but it can only take you so far, especially against Toxic. Maybe I was unlucky but it happened a fair bit to me when I tried to use it on a team without Whimsicott/another crippler. This is why Thunder Wave (or some other paralysing/speed lowering move) is, in my opinion, highly essential when using it. Stat-reducing moves like Memento are also highly valuable, since Dragonite will have a harder time keeping sub up without them against many things.

Suicune on the other hand can Rest off status (in almost every case, it does not care about being asleep for 2 turns) and it can even remove freeze with Scald. The ability to not care about status barring ridiculous hax (i.e. consecutive full paralysis turns) is Suicune's main advantage. Suicune is arguably just as vulnerable to flinches as Dragonite, but its superior bulk especially when Multiscale is out of the picture means that only multiple flinches in a row are going to bother it most of the time (with Dragonite, one flinch from a faster pokemon breaks Multiscale and now it isn't as bulky anymore so it takes twice as much damage from the follow-up hit - what if it's a crit?) and with Calm Mind only multiple physical defence drops are going to screw Suicune. Crits still worry Suicune, especially since it doesn't boost its Speed (unless you want to use Icy Wind, but I prefer its other moves), so I guess Dragonite wins here, assuming it is faster than the opponent, but it takes consecutive crits to stop Suicune most of the time, just like Dragonite. Plus, Suicune's subs are harder to crack overall and with practice you can predict when it will break and just set up a new one on the same turn (well, unless it's a crit but that's why people use sub right?).

So yes, with enough speed from Dragon Dance Dragonite can PP stall rock and ice attacks and set up on pretty much anything, but without support it can be difficult to get the required speed behind it to do this against many opponents. Suicune can do this without the support, without the speed and especially with Pressure. I guess you could argue the same thing about Calm Mind and strong special electric attacks, and make Dragonite seem like the better pokemon, but Suicune stalls rock and ice better than Dragonite can stall electric anyway.

Now I'll admit that I undersold Dragonite a bit with my other post because it can still set up and PP stall plenty of stuff, and the extra speed when it starts to accumulate boosts is great, but if I was going to use a non-crippler team and I had to pick between the standard set up Suicune and the standard set up Dragonite, I would go with Suicune anyday, because I am of the opinion that it is more reliable and self-sufficient than this particular Dragonite set (I prefer my more offensive Lum Berry set for more offensive teams).

I wasn't trying to say that Dragonite is bad without support and I apologise if it came across that way (using the word 'sucks' was a bad idea; I should have said 'not as good' lol). In fact, Dragonite is actually one of the best. I was just saying that Suicune is better without support (with support from a crippler, Dragonite is at least as good and arguably better than Suicune anyway).

Alternatively, just use them on the same team and get the best of both worlds!

P.S. not sure why I rambled on like this since you weren't trying to say that Suicune is worse and Dragonite is better, but I was just trying to explain my point of view better!

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

I´m glad that that there´s people who enjoy reading the logs, they require some effort to make, but they provide both an exceptional showcase of how a team works and are an ideal information storage room for experienced players.

Yeah, basically Cloyster made me like Singles more than Doubles for a while, it was that awesome of a feeling to lead with it. There´s few things better in Pokémon than multi-hit Icicle Spear :)

You and I are perhaps in the best position to appreciate the feeling that Icicle Spear feeling (plus the five-hit thing too which basically goes without saying) given the thousands of battles we've spent Glenscarfing over the years. This is why I was especially rooting for that seven 3-0 sweep by Cloyster because I know we've averaged about 15 turns per battle with Glenscarfing with our teams.

With your Latias/Registeel/Garchomp, this is probably fair (not that you didn't post logs of this too but I don't really have to go back to look at those):

Trick
TW
Charm×2
Flash×2
Switch To Registeel
Sub×3
Curse×6
Amnesia×3
IH×5

That's 24 turns we can call it 25, whatever. I think you said you used Garchomp only 10% of the time but that seems low (and I dont feel like looking) so I'll say 25% tops, and those battles seem like they'd be 12 turns long on average given dumb TW lock stuff, otherwise 14ish (first six then switch to Chomp, then SD×3, Sub, then three moves to sweep), so like mostly 20 turns on average is fair. Cloyster is basically four turns if it works, which it did 2/3 of the time for you (65.04%). Let's say battles are 12 turns otherwise (Set up Cune), for average of about 7 (6.66 to be exact, 2/3 of 4 plus 1/3 of 12) turns per battle. This means your Cloyster team is literally three times faster than your Latias/Registeel/Garchomp team. Obviously, reliability between the two teams is the issue (one's a 2,000+ win team and the other is 200+, even if that's not really fair given that the Subway is unequivocally much harder than the Plat Frontier) but sometimes the real issue is boredom!

I'm not going to go through the same exercise with my teams (Team Drapula I vs Haxorus/Scizor/Starmie) because it's obviously going to be comparable: battles are about 1/3 of the time. This is a big deal if you can actually rely on your team for hundreds of battles otherwise, especially in the Subway. Think about it—there's one team over 500 wins so far and the most reliable teams on the top of the leaderboard are unarguably Glenscarfing teams (crippling included) teams. The majority of those teams, I'd argue, take about 20 turns per battle as well, maybe even more (Acupressure with Tentacruel and using Shuckle and Ferrothorn are, as stated by their users, slow). My own Whimsy team is about this long at its longest:

Taunt
Charm
Memento
Trick
TW
Cripple (Flash/Charm as needed)×4
Switch to Draggy
DD×6
Sub×3
Roost×2
DC×3

For ~23 turns. If it's an idiot like Tauros4 or Granbull4 that will spam Toxic on Draggy's Sub, the battle is Taunt/Switch/Sub/DD×6/DC×3 for 12 turns, though that's probably less than 10% in rarity so battles are still usually around 20 turns. With Haxorus, battles are seriously four or five turns about 70% of the time: it can seriously DD on just about anything then then sweep with Outrage or EQ when it snaps out of confusion. If there were an Ice/Steel type to come out second and resist Outrage and threaten a OHKO then things would be different, but there isn't (and Scizor and Starmie would piss on such a type). Anyway I guess this touches on the second part of your post lol:

We need some numbers or it didn´t happen lol. Hmm, did you give Haxo 135 speed because of these guys?

134 - Bisharp 3, Breloom 23, Metagross 1

Also why 8 speed EVs on Scizor or do you have a 30 IV in Speed? Sorry for nitpicking.

Anyway, glad to see someone putting Haxorus to great use, I always wanted it to, but was stuck with Double Chop in my head lol.

Oh and it´s kind of ironic that I´m using ScarfChomp now and you´re using Timid LO Starmie, isn´t it?

Good luck to everyone´s streaks, I´ll be hopefully back in a few weeks.

135 Speed for those, yeah. This was initially EVed for my Uxie/Haxorus/Volcarona team but the concept is identical, and I didn't see a reason not to outspeed though if possible since at least 134 Speed was mandatory. As usual, 1 Speed point is more valuable than 1 "Defense" point.

You're not nitpicking btw, this the exact opposite. I post my teams to be analyzed by all so I'm enjoying the comments. I meant 6 for Scizor, it's definitely 252/252/6 as it needs 248 HP/Attack are both worse than 252 at Lv50. I guess it is kind of ironic I'm using Timid LO Starmie, I really didn't get why you used that in Gen IV because Modest EB seemed to be better because there was so much less shit it had to worry about being outpaced by...I don't remember you having similar thought about Scarfchomp though as I used it in Gen V (though I do wonder if you really feel you need 252 Speed EVs you only tie with opposing Scarfchomp and Garchomp/Suicine seem to beat the rest of the 201-250 pokes by virtue of typing and "being Suicune" regardless).

If I have time I'll go down the list and post how many pokemon my lead Haxorus matches up well with. But basically, if you don't have at least 95 Base HP and 90 Defense AND max HP, you are going to die to +1 Outrage (if you're not a Steel-type). And Haxorus's beauty further stems from the fact that it can EQ through Bronzong's Levitate and Bastiodon/Aggron/Magnezone Sturdy...it's not exactly OHKOing Steelix or Forretress, but liek I stated above: no Steel/Ice types so Haxorus doesn't care. I'd do actual logs if I were thrilled with the notion of using a worse team with such a high streak, lol


Anyway, I'm glad Suicune was mentioned because I hadn't really thought about it yet (though I hadn't really sought to answer my own question yet) and I have used it more than enough to sound off on it. Now "I swear by Icy Wind" as I have for like seven years" but I have tried Sub over Icy Wind...I just wasn't a huge fan. I think the time I tried it was with Cobalion, on a lead CB Chomp and Max HP/Spe Jolly Sacred/IH/TW/SD Cobalion team, and that teams appreciated Speed drops a lot more than a Suicune/Scizor tandem may. That said, such a tandem would immediately be a tad tricky, because Cobalion needed the Leftovers much more than Suicune while Flinching with Iron Head or generally benefitting from FPs. While Scizor may not need them as much it still loves them...and I know that a few Suicune have used Lum with Sub so I can't knock that any more than atsync can knock Lefties/Roost Scizor (I have used both Lum and Sub though, just only for like 14-21 battles).

Perhaps a Scizor@Lefties/Sub/CM Suicune@Lum tandem would work since the main reason for Icy Wind is to allow for revenge kills should Suicune die. Garchomp immediately springs to mind on such a team as a lead, I suppose Lum wouldn't work because of Suicune and I would greatly prefer CB anyway because Scizor and Suicune more than back it up defensively when switches are needed as they often are with a Choiced Goodstuffs poke. I immediately caution "myself" though because Volcarona4 has shown itself to be kind of a bitch (in a good way, bad but good) to a few of my Goodstuffs exploits, because Starmie can't OHKO it and neither can Latios and Suicune has real issues beating it if it gets too many boosts. For reference, CB Jolly Garchomp EQ only does 62-74% and Outrage only does 75-89%, so even if Garchomp is locked into the right move Volcarona can be trouble, especially with its own Leftovers. This is part of the reason I love Haxorus so much...while +1 Outrage surprisingly doesn't always kill, Haxorus can DD on it while it Quiver Dances and fire away with Outrage (89-105%) knowing that, worse cast, Scizor can almost always clean up even through the resist, the could-not-be-more-defensive 252HP/252Def Impish Leftovers Volcarona. Regardless of all that, it's probably my "speedy" leanings that have me siding Scizor over Suicune more than anything else, but can you blame me etc.

[Chinese Dood]

@atsync: Yeah I did mention in my earlier post that one of Dragonite's biggest negatives was its inability to deal with status like Suicune could (I even mentioned the scald removing freeze I think).

I do think that Suicune can set up on more things than Dragonite can (without any crippling support), but yeah I just thought it's not so accurate to say that it "sucks".

The other "argument" is that self-sufficiency is not entirely about being able to set up (though that should be a big part). It's also about being able to sweep after setting up. I.e. if I could fully set up with either Suicune or Dragonite, I would choose Dragonite almost every time (only exception would be facing flamebody/static leads), because Dragonite basically beats things with more confidence than Suicune due to Suicune's lower speed and attacking power even after fully setting up. This is a minor point though of course, but still a point to be considered.

[Peterko]

I will definitely play the Cloyster team again in the near future, after the Milan qualifier...not sure yet if I attend that one but whatever.

I will reconsider the Garchomp spread and try to figure out a way around those nasty hard hitting special attackers with Thunderbolt, mostly Psychic types, because Suicune can´t reliably set up on those.

When we´re at it, just throwing it out there...one of those annoying ones is Gardevoir 4, its Psychic Gem Psychic has a 5/16 chance to one-shot your Haxorus. You´d probably go to Scizor straight up, which takes 67-80/177, 56-69/177 after Lefties.

Bullet Punch does 81-96/143, so depending on how you feel you would either Roost or go straight up for the Bug Bite OHKO (or SD). Now this isn´t unusual for the Subway AI to get a sD drop right away (making Bolt do 96-114 dmg) or simply a CH Thunderbolt (56-69 + 2 x 63-75 = 182 min) turn 2 that would definitely kill Scizor (I mean the CH, the afterdrop Bolt would do 152-183 total dmg in two turns).

Yeah afterwards you will probably set up Haxo anyway unless the AI gets another CH but still...I mean just pointing out that Scizor´s quite bulky but far from a special wall so just look out for stuff like for example the flinch/freezing Starmie...lol who am I kidding, you know what you´re doing.

Also how did this turn into a "most self-sufficient Subway Pokémon" discussion?

Anyway, it´s always advisable to go through the moveset list and theorymon what your lead finds troublesome, or you just go and play and learn from experience like I do mostly lol. That way I found the threats to Cloyster...by losing to them lol.

[rhrgrt]

Hey guys, I have a question.

I've been using the event distributed Suicune from GameStop, with aqua ring and leftovers instead of chestorest, and extrasensory instead of sub. Does anyone have any experience with this, and should I just swap it for sub and chestorest? Or could I use sub instead of extrasensory? The only reason I don't swap over and try it is because there's no way to get aqua ring back.

After getting up aqua ring, it's rather easy to stay in a fight. The biggest problem I have is if I have to swap Suicune out for another Pokémon, it wastes another turn for setup.

For clarification, I am using scald and calm mind in the other slots.

[Zacchaeus]

The Suicune that many people in here have used in Subway is used for a good reason, that includes its moveset. Your Suicune can't defend against status or cure it at all. Extrasensory has no significant purpose besides beating Water Absorb Pokés and Aqua Ring doesn't help you against critical hits or stat reductions

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Chinese Dood

@atsync: Yeah I did mention in my earlier post that one of Dragonite's biggest negatives was its inability to deal with status like Suicune could (I even mentioned the scald removing freeze I think).

I do think that Suicune can set up on more things than Dragonite can (without any crippling support), but yeah I just thought it's not so accurate to say that it "sucks".

The other "argument" is that self-sufficiency is not entirely about being able to set up (though that should be a big part). It's also about being able to sweep after setting up. I.e. if I could fully set up with either Suicune or Dragonite, I would choose Dragonite almost every time (only exception would be facing flamebody/static leads), because Dragonite basically beats things with more confidence than Suicune due to Suicune's lower speed and attacking power even after fully setting up. This is a minor point though of course, but still a point to be considered.

Well I guess we could get into a big argument about what self-sufficiency actually mean though I really don't want to lol. I took it to mean "how well a pokemon (or a particular set of a pokemon) performs its role without support", in which case Dragonite loses to Suicune and Scizor IMO. Dragonite is still good though.

Dragonite is definitely better when fully set up though. It's amazing how often Suicune fails to OHKO a opponent at 6+ sp.att., though at that point it hardly matters.

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

Also how did this turn into a "most self-sufficient Subway Pokémon" discussion?

At least it's better than letting the thread go inactive, right? :p

I promise to stop going on about it though!

[Manveru123]

Originally Posted by Fat Zacchaeus

The Suicune that many people in here have used in Subway is used for a good reason, that includes its moveset.

Speaking of that, have anyone tried Suicune with cm/sub/rest and Ice Beam instead of Scald? The reason is water absorbers who need to be PP stalled :X Ice is resisted by Fire, Water, Steel and Ice. Fire, Water and Ice types can't even touch Suicune really so that's not a big deal (Fires can carry SolarBeam but that's not an issue with CM and Sub). While Steels are generally physical tanks and will get hit hard with a +6 Ice Beam despite resists. The only reason I'm considering this is because with only a Water move fighting water absorbers takes AGES.

And no I'm not too fussed about Scald's burn chance. I actually started using Surf instead as with my current team that burn is not really needed.

[VaporeonIce]

Originally Posted by Fat Manveru123

And no I'm not too fussed about Scald's burn chance. I actually started using Surf instead as with my current team that burn is not really needed.

It's worth noting that a lot of people like Scald for the ability to thaw out of freezes instantly. When you're switching Suicune in to an Ice move (which is relatively common, given the abundance of Ice-types in the Subway and the fact that the ever-prevalent Dragons are weak to Ice), it's nice not to have it completely shut down by freezehax as soon as it gets in, leaving it vulnerable to die to repeated Thunderpunches (on those elemental punch sets) or Thunderbolts (on BoltBeam sets) that it could often set up on pretty well as long as it doesn't miss four turns in a row due to freeze. Also, the power loss isn't that important. Suicune is bulky enough that it usually doesn't need to OHKO; it can afford to 2HKO because it can shrug off the opponent's hit (and the chance to burn and kill Sturdy users that same turn is pretty awesome), and often it doesn't even lose its Sub in the process.

[NoCheese]

I played around a bit with ice beam Suicune, but as Chinese Dood predicted when I floated the idea (waaaay back in this thread), I wasn't that impressed. I didn't like losing the additional anti-freeze insurance and significant burn chance scald provides, but even worse, the loss of STAB really hurt the damage output. For me, it's proven easier to stall out most of the water absorbers and have teammates that can handle the ones that hit too hard to stall out, rather than rely on ice beam. Plus, my Suciune teams have always been a little soft to Volcarona, and swapping a water attack for an ice one on Cune certainly doesn't help that.

My use of ice beam Cune was far from extensive, however, so you might be able to make it work, but bear in mind that there are some real downsides compared to scald.

[NoCheese]

Jumpman, I like your new Haxrous/Starmie/Scizor team. Note, however, that even Scizor can sometimes have his troubles countering one of the "speed crew," the dreaded SPIT Starmie, crusher of dreams. I wouldn't be surprised if it's ended more streaks for all players than anything else in the subway, and it always gets prominent consideration in my theorymoning now. Sure, without hax you are golden, but on my old (mediocre) Scizor teams, I lost twice by switching Scizor in and eating an untimely freeze, flinch, and/or crit. The darn king's rock always seems to activate when you can least afford it. Admittedly, my Scizor was imperfect, with only a 22 HP IV and a 29 SPD, but the principle should still apply even for a perfect one.

That said, the loss in resilience is the price one pays for playing a fast team over a slow cripple and set-up one. Built well, you'll still be fairly resilient, but you'll be less able to handle a lengthy series of unfortunate events.

[atsync]

Dual scarf leads work great in Multi, but why is it that I'm more unlucky in Multi than in any other mode?

Opponent sends out Mamoswine and Snorlax, I send out Garchomp and Zapdos
Garchomp uses Dragon Claw, Mamoswine avoided, Zapdos uses Heat Wave, Mamoswine avoided, Mamoswine uses Fissure, Garchomp dead, Snorlax uses Body Slam, Zapdos paralyzed
I send out Scizor
Scizor uses Bullet Punch, Mamoswine avoided, Mamoswine uses Fissure, Scizor dead, Zapdos fully paralyzed, Snorlax used Body Slam

Yeah somehow I eventually killed Mamoswine with the Azumarill I'm using as back-up to Zapdos, but then they send out Choice Band Dragonite...

Thank you Mamoswine and Snorlax for causing me to waste several hours of my time with your bullcrap hax. I guess I'll try again later. At least this didn't happen at battle 67 or something.

[Chill]

What kind of EVs do you guys usually run on Suicune?

[NoCheese]

Originally Posted by Fat Chill

What kind of EVs do you guys usually run on Suicune?

Since you are boosting Special Defense with Calm Mind, typically Bold with near max HP and Def is best. However, it's also helpful to avoid speed ties, since a speed tie means that you risk having the opponent go twice in a row (second one turn, first in the next) which can catch you without a sub. Accordingly, I think it's really nice to get your Suicuneup to 107 speed, since no other subway poke matches that.

My 31/7/28/31/29/30 Suicune thus went with 236/0/252/0/0/20 EVs, which leave me with stats of 205/74/181/110/134/107 at level 50. Note that the 205 HP are still enough to make 51 HP subs, and substitute four times in a row (with no leftovers) without dying.

With perfect IVs, I'd suggest an EV spread of 244/0/252/0/0/12, which would leave you with stats of 206/85/183/110/135/107.

[Exploits]

Been using this team in Super Singles this week and after a couple runs with it finished with a pretty decent streak. Streak ended at 173.

Team:

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Modest - Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP - 252 Sp. Atk - 4 Spd
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast
-HP Grass


Kingdra @ Life Orb
Modest - Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Sp. Atk - 252 Spd - 4 HP
-Hydro Pump
-Dragon Pulse
-Draco Meteor
-HP Electric


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Sassy - Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP - 252 Sp. Def - 4 Def
-Curse
-Leech Seed
-Gyro Ball
-Power Whip

Strategy was simple. Obviously started out with Politoed for the rain. If the opposing lead was no threat and something I could easily take out, I would use Hydro Pump. I'd stay locked into Hydro Pump for as long as I needed to, until something resisted it or was faster than me and threatened to KO me or poison me. At that point I would switch out to Ferrothorn. I would try to keep Politoed alive in case I needed to activate Drizzle again.

Most of the time I switched out to Ferrothorn I would proceed to set up with Curse, usually getting 2-3 in depending on who I was facing and how much HP I had left. At that point, most of the time I would be able to finish the battle with Ferrothorn without having to use Kingdra. I had Leech Seed to help stall out things faster + to get some more HP recovery while I set up. This worked well when I faced bulky pokemon like Cresselia and Bronzong. If I knocked someone out and they brought in a Fire type, I would switch back to Politoed, who was usually still alive. If he wasn't, then to Kingdra, who easily takes a Fire attack thanks to his dragon/water typing.

I usually only brought in Kingdra after either Politoed or Ferrothorn fainted, since I didn't want him to take hits for obvious reasons. Like Politoed, Hydro Pump was my main attack move unless something was low on HP, then I would go with Dragon Pulse for the 100% accuracy and sure KO. If I was facing something with full HP and it was its last pokemon, then Draco Meteor since the -2 Sp. Atk loss doesn't matter at that point. When I faced Garchomp or Salamence, I went with Dragon Pulse for the sure OHKO.

If I was to do something different with Kingdra it would be to give it HP Fire instead of Electric. I think I only ended up using HP Electric one time for Empoleon. Politoed's Hydro Pump is so strong that I used it to 2HKO'd Water types that resisted it, like Empoleon and Gyarados, so I didn't get to even use HP Electric often. Not that it ended up mattering much, but I probably could have also put more EV's into HP for more bulk since, under rain, I was faster than the fastest Scarf user in the Subway - Adamant Terrakion.

I think the most annoying teams were Hail teams, since they constantly forced me to keep switching in and out to change the weather back to rain. Although I handled them easily with Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball, it was still annoying facing their 100% Blizzard, especially when I froze. Sandstorm teams were easy. Again, Ferrothorn took care of them, not taking any damage from Sandstorm and using Super Effective, physical +1 or 2 Power Whip. I think one time Ferrothorn ended up fainting to Tyranitar's Superpower, so I brought in Politoed, who was at full HP, to change the weather back to rain and KO it with Hydro Pump.

Overall, I loved this team. Politoed and Ferrothorn complement each other so well. Ferrothorn easily takes Electric and Grass moves aimed at Politoed, and Politoed takes the Fire moves aimed at Ferrothorn. Team could play out fast with Politoed and Kingdra, and if needed, could stall with Ferrothorn. It was a pretty decent balance.

How I lost:
I was starting to get bored because I was facing easy trainers that I had already beat earlier on in the run. After facing about 14-20 of the same trainers in a row, finally faced something new and ended up losing to Veteran Leron and his Virizion/Regice/Zapdos team. It was the first time I had faced a Virizion and knew it would be difficult. High Sp. Def + STAB Grass and Fighting moves... just what's needed to beat Politoed and Ferrothorn. I have the video below, basically when Kingdra missed Hydro Pump and Regice paralyzed him, I knew I was fucked. If he hits that Hydro Pump I probably would have won.

Picture proof:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...ubwayproof.jpg

Video of my loss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quf7apNmNY0

[Zacchaeus]

I have a problem. 2 parts of my team are working very well and as they're supposed to, but the 3rd link is falling apart and that link is Gyarados. The current set I'm using is: Adamant Intimidate 212 HP 252 Atk 4 Def 4 SpD 36 Spe with Chesto Berry and Rest, Dragon Dance, Aqua Tail, Bounce. This team should work where each Poké can set up and sweep but also take hits for the other Pokés, but this Gyarados sucks. The most successful Gyarados in this thread is Chinese Dood's but his is more situational for setting up and not as easy to switch in at any point in a match. So how can I improve this set or replace it? I'm not very likely to replace it as a whole though

[P Mystery]

Originally Posted by Fat Exploits

How I lost:
I was starting to get bored because I was facing easy trainers that I had already beat earlier on in the run. After facing about 14-20 of the same trainers in a row, finally faced something new and ended up losing to Veteran Leron and his Virizion/Regice/Zapdos team. It was the first time I had faced a Virizion and knew it would be difficult. High Sp. Def + STAB Grass and Fighting moves... just what's needed to beat Politoed and Ferrothorn. I have the video below, basically when Kingdra missed Hydro Pump and Regice paralyzed him, I knew I was fucked. If he hits that Hydro Pump I probably would have won.

Picture proof:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...ubwayproof.jpg

Video of my loss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quf7apNmNY0

You actually would have won that battle had you not opted to Curse once against Virizion, and instead attacked it with Gyro Ball on that turn. That would have brought Virizion to red HP, meaning the AI would have assuredly used Rest on the following turn; that is a habit of the AI when it controls any pokemon with Rest. Had you known this, on the turn Virizion would have used Rest, you would have used Curse once. The following turn, you would Gyro Ball it down from full to yellow health. From here, you do NOT kill it, instead letting Virizion stay asleep for another turn as you Curse once more, garnering yourself both another attack/defense boost and Leftovers recovery. It would then awaken and immediately use Rest again, allowing you to set up two more Curses (one on the turn it goes back to sleep, another on the first sleep turn), and OHKO it with a +4 Gyro Ball. From here, you're set to win the battle as Regice's Focus Blast cannot OHKO Ferrothorn at that point thanks to the additional turns of Leftovers recovery, while +4 Gyro Ball obviously OHKOs Regice.

A big part of achieving long streaks is just noting the habitual stupidity of the AI and exploiting it. I must say, however, I'm shocked that you managed to be fairly successful with a team that routinely relies on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pumps and Draco Meteors without the assistance of a Wide Lens. I wouldn't even dare use something like Rock Slide Terrakion or Hi Jump Kick Blaziken without the help of a Wide Lens. I'm curious as to how you handled Quick Claw Fissure Sturdy Donphans, Brightpowder users, and other legendary streak killers while relying on such unreliable attacks.

Edit: I don't know why I even bothered wasting my "one post per year" on this before looking at your image link. Your picture is clearly from an emulator. It looks like no$gba given the borders you forgot to crop out in the screen shot. lol

[Exploits]

Originally Posted by Fat P Mystery

You actually would have won that battle had you not opted to Curse once against Virizion, and instead attacked it with Gyro Ball on that turn. That would have brought Virizion to red HP, meaning the AI would have assuredly used Rest on the following turn; that is a habit of the AI when it controls any pokemon with Rest. Had you known this, on the turn Virizion would have used Rest, you would have used Curse once. The following turn, you would Gyro Ball it down from full to yellow health. From here, you do NOT kill it, instead letting Virizion stay asleep for another turn as you Curse once more, garnering yourself both another attack/defense boost and Leftovers recovery. It would then awaken and immediately use Rest again, allowing you to set up two more Curses (one on the turn it goes back to sleep, another on the first sleep turn), and OHKO it with a +4 Gyro Ball. From here, you're set to win the battle as Regice's Focus Blast cannot OHKO Ferrothorn at that point thanks to the additional turns of Leftovers recovery, while +4 Gyro Ball obviously OHKOs Regice.

You're probably right. I just wanted to get rid of Virizion asap because of his grass/fighting moves. Sacred Sword ignores the defensive boost and I only used Curse that one time to ensure I KO it with my next Gyro Ball.

A big part of achieving long streaks is just noting the habitual stupidity of the AI and exploiting it. I must say, however, I'm shocked that you managed to be fairly successful with a team that routinely relies on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pumps and Draco Meteors without the assistance of a Wide Lens. I wouldn't even dare use something like Rock Slide Terrakion or Hi Jump Kick Blaziken without the help of a Wide Lens. I'm curious as to how you handled Quick Claw Fissure Sturdy Donphans, Brightpowder users, and other legendary streak killers while relying on such unreliable attacks.

I don't think I ran into any Donphans with Fissure and if I ran into Brightpowder users, didn't notice it. I certainly missed my fair share of moves and it cost my streak the previous times (just like it did this time with Kingdra's Hydro Pump)

Edit: I don't know why I even bothered wasting my "one post per year" on this before looking at your image link. Your picture is clearly from an emulator. It looks like no$gba given the borders you forgot to crop out in the screen shot. lol

I used the emulator to grab the picture and video. I think that was obvious by my video. I didn't forget to do anything.

[twash]

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

I will definitely play the Cloyster team again in the near future, after the Milan qualifier...not sure yet if I attend that one but whatever.

I know its not the right thread but its the only place you will definitely read lol... I was so tempted to go to Milan, decided not to after I played so badly in Birmingham/Paris. Despite having an awesome time with people, I don't think so many people will be in Milan as the Euro-congregated Paris and so I don't wanna go so much. Good luck if you go though!

Anyway to the point of this post: I didn't bother picking up Subway again until after Birmingham, and immediately lost with my Machamp/Chansey/Zapdos team (after which I reset my game, lol). I've been a little bit lazy to post this but whatever. I don't have a picture but obviously it doesn't matter as my streak is stuck at what it is in the listing (231). I fucked up against a Gallade and that was that with no calcs/lists on me, I shouldn't have played so I'm a little peeved at myself but I was unbelievable bored so eh.

I really need to stop posting teams before the streak is done. Combined in singles subway I am 406-2, so far the losses have been 8 games and 1 game after posting my teams... i.e., I have just 7 wins between two teams after posting them. Ouch.

I do have a new singles team though, using a couple of pretty unused Pokes, so hopefully I haven't overestimated them. Have several doubles teams too.. looking forwards to using them soon too, should have a lot more time after this week.

[Manveru123]

I'm working on a new team atm and looking for input. Currently approaching 100 wins, hoping to beat my previous record.

Breloom @Toxic Orb
Adamant - Poison Heal
EV: 252 HP/Spe
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Focus Punch

This works pretty damn well. Focus Punch destroys anything that doesn't resist it, even without any boosts. This guy is also capable of outstalling nearly everything that doesn't have a SE attack on him (notably, most steel types).

Chansey @Evolite
Bold - Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/Def
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Aromatherapy
- Softboiled

I don't think I need to explain what this thing does :P I personally prefer Chansey over Blissey. The lack of Leftovers is not a big deal to be honest. I was considering putting Charm somewhere in there, to let me wall most physical attackers aswell.

Dragonite @Leftovers
Adamant - Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP/Atk
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Substitute
- Roost

Same Dragonite I used before. His job in this group is mostly to defeat physical Fire attackers and fighting types.

Gonna report back when my streak ends, but I have a good feeling about this one.

[atsync]

That's actually an interesting team, Manveru123, though I could see fast ice types being a problem, especially if they freeze Chansey.

Anyway, I here for another winge session. I have lost 2 more attempts at Multi.

The 1st attempt was lost at 40-something wins and was due to a Vanilluxe freezing my Scizor as it switched it, thus eliminating my only good check to the opposing team. I'll let that slide though. I am partially to blame for letting my Zapdos get paralyzed since it would have been an easy win otherwise.

But the second attempt was possibly one of the absolute worst instances of hax I have ever experienced. It did happen early which softens the blow a bit, but still...

The battle video can be seen here:11-07776-99146

For those who won't watch it, a summary:

Turn 1: I missed Heat Wave on Mamoswine and it set up hail (not game deciding).
Turn 2: I missed Heat Wave on Typhlosion (again, not game deciding), Mamoswine died at least.
Turn 3: I missed Dragon Claw on Lapras, then I missed BOTH opponents with Heat Wave, Zapdos and Garchomp were both killed at the end of the turn.
Turn 4: I kill Typhlosion with Azumarill but then Lapras gets a freaking crit Thunderbolt to kill Azumarill (I pretty sure this made a difference).

From there, Scizor was left to fight Lapras and Gastrodon by itself. I needed a crit to kill Gastrodon but no cigar. The Dragon Claw miss was probably the most game-deciding thing about this really (honestly Heat Wave hitting Lapras and Typhlosion turn 3 wouldn't have made much difference). I suppose I could have swapped my leads out turn 3 to avoid Lapras's Ice Beam, but that could have been equally as bad (see the other attempt where Vanilluze froze Scizor on the switch). Maybe if I'd used set lists I'd have known that Lapras 3 was the one with Thunderbolt but that crit was so gay.

I don't want to admit defeat, but quitting is starting to look kinda tempting (at least from Multi). I don't know what I'm gonna do now. Maybe I should take a break.

[Manveru123]

Originally Posted by Fat atsync

That's actually an interesting team, Manveru123, though I could see fast ice types being a problem, especially if they freeze Chansey.

Actually my biggest problem atm is Life Orb Medicham. He outspeeds and OHKO Breloom, Chansey can't do s**t against him, and Dragonite takes a lot of damage from Psycho Cut. I might need a more bulky dragon... but I don't think there's something more bulky than Dragonite in the subway.

I'm strongly considering Slowbro, who can tank what Dragonite could in this team, and isn't threatened by Medicham at all.

EDIT: I found a perfect pokemon: Aerodactyl. Lots of trial and error. Scary Face makes opponent lead slower than Breloom. Incinerate gets rid of any berries they might have (chesto and lum most importantly). Roar gets rid of annoying, long-to-kill leads (defensive ghosts mostly). And Protect, just in case. Looks wierd? It would, except for the fact that Breloom can kill anything that is slower than him. Anything at all. All thanks to Spore, which is SO DAMN OP! After the lead dies, Breloom is usually poisoned and behind a sub, which means a free spore for the second pokemon, and that usually means another KO. Honestly I only use Chansey atm if Breloom is somehow caught with his pants down (in this case it's facing a faster pokemon with SE moves without sub up).

[White symphoni]

Do I post my record as reply like this or there is a separate place for it?

[atsync]

No separate place, just post records here.