np: NU Stage 3 - Riders on the Storm

[tennisace]

song hereoglemi I almost used set fire to the rain sry

Hi there.

I was prepared for another rant on how RU screwed us yet again and gave us nothing and took cool important mons, but for some reason that didn't happen? Sure, we lost arguably the most versatile "glue" Pokemon in the metagame in Mesprit, but now, for better or worse we have reasons to use weather teams in Charizard, Ludicolo, and Sawsbuck, in addition to the Pokemon we already have in NU that like weather, such as Victreebel, Gorebyss, Floatzel, etcetera etcetera.

So anyway, we have some housekeeping business to attend to. Activity really waned towards the end of the round, which is really sad guys. So here's what we're going to do:

-DTC mentioned this in the last research week, but from now on Research Weeks are going to be structured like RU's, with a laddering tie-in and possible promotion in #neverused.

-Council members are going to be politely asked (read: forced) to post more and talk more in #neverused about the metagame, especially in this early stage the next two weeks. I'd like to remind council members that membership is 100% activity based, and if Oglemi or I don't see activity, we will replace members with users who are active as per the TC policy.

-I'd like to encourage everyone to reserve judgement on the three new drop-downs or any other Pokemon in the metagame for 2 weeks. Give the metagame time to somewhat stabilize. See what strategies and Pokemon rise to the top, and which ones are just hype. Try different and new things. By reserving judgement, I mean I don't want to see people posting about how "X is SO BROKEN OMG QUICKBAN". I refuse to quickban things before two weeks have passed, and even then it would have to be absolute slaughter (and it would be a council vote).

So, let's discuss. What does everyone think of the new Pokemon we get to use in NU?

[Steamroll]

I like them! I like them a lot! I feel we won't need to quick ban anything like RU did with Cress, there's a bunch of pokemon that can stop all three threats, just we have to be careful of them in weather. I'll be ready for this, and Sun is definitely going to be fun to play with due to a bunch of viable mons that can abuse the weather, even the rock types will be able to scrub off water moves due to them having 50% power. This definitely is going to be a fun testing period!

[Amarillo]

Well, too bad NU doesn't have a lot of bulky waters, because they would have thrived if they were around! I'm seeing a lot of weather now, but hopefully their hype dies down. And, another hard counter for Gorebyss, I guess. It was fun while it lasted, Gorebyss ;_;

Absol usage has really died down recently, but it needs to spike up again in order to check the super-fast weather abusers that can offensively rip through the tier on its own. I'm a little bit scared of Ludicolo, as it has little safe switch-ins while standing up defensively on its own. But Sawsbuck is really really the scariest thing: normal-types can be only countered by Rock-types mostly, and I really look forward to using Swords Dance + Baton Pass Sawsbuck because the best the Rock-types can do to Sawsbuck is paralyzing it. +4 Absol or something has gotta be devastating. And I'm talking about solo-Sawsbuck, not even a Sun variant. It can choose vs. countering Grassers with Sap Sipper, or countering opposing sun with Chlorophyll, or just abusing Sun of your own! It beats non Rock-type physical walls in Tangela and Alomomola. What else could you ask in a Pokemon?

I'm a big fan of charizard, and maybe Regirock usage peaks again? It switches in vs. Charizard pretty well, and it's a good sun setter.

[Zebraiken*]

Hello, ladies. Let's do some calcs.

Timid Solar Power Choice Specs Charizard in Sun:

vs 252/252+ Regirock: 209-246 (57.41 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Regirock: 291-343 (79.94 - 94.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Alomomola: 540-636 (101.12 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Lickilicky: 433-511 (102.12 - 120.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Camerupt: 251-296 (72.96 - 86.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/252+ Mantine: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.38%) -- 67.97% chance to 2HKO (probably your best bet here)
vs 252/252+ Cloud Nine Altaria: 90-107 (25.42 - 30.22%) -- possible 4HKO (oh yeah cloud nine, HP Ice still ohkoes so watch out for that)
vs 252/252+ Volbeat in Rain: 224-266 (67.26 - 79.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mean... there's nothing that checks it in sun save Cloud Nine Altaria (who I expect to get a lot more popular...).

And yes, Absol usage is definitely going to spike. x__x It essentially needs to.

[Cheapoman]

Ludicolo is gonna be awesome this round. Swift swim with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Giga Drain will be nice. Sawbuck and Zard are going to be somewhat decent partners. Buck's Nature power (earthquake) will be strong against Flareon, Lampent, Heatmor and Rapidash. Zard's Fire Blast, Air Slash and HP Ice will be great against fighting and flying types.

[No Luck Involved]

Sawsbuck is definitely my favourite out of the ones that dropped. Amazing speed and attack for the tier, great movepool and great support options as well as two amazing abilities. Ludicolo is quite a funny one in that it acts as a great abuser and, at the same time, a great counter/check to rain. +2 Ludicolo is also annoying fast and bulky for scarfers in the tier to check, there aren't that many Pokemon that can take it on through resistances so I hope we're not all forced to use Lickilicky to counter it.

Charizard is a real wildcard for me, I tried using it before in RU and it really really needs support. The conditions for it being able to fire off ridiculous Fire Blasts is: Sun needs to be up, it must be near full health or else SR must not be up, it must switch in safely and outspeed the opponent. When those factors are considered it's not easy to fit it onto a normal team; dedicated Sun teams will love it but it has to watch out for Flash Fire Pokemon too because that will take the wind right out of its sails. I don't expect Charizard to be a popular choice on teams simply because how hard it is to use but I fully expect it to emerge in some top teams because it is extremely deadly.

[TropiOUs]

Only tried sun so far and it has been quite good and effective loving Charizard and Sawsbuck decent parternship at taking down each other checks(because lol countering Sun Charizard). I only wish Mesprit was still here, I really wanted her Healing Wish+SR+U-turn ;_;. Only problem so far is handling Absol and preventing Stealth Rock from ever going up and stop Charizard from having fun.


Will try Ludicolo in a rain team later, he looks quite interesting and a decent check to other rain abusers and a movepool that allows him to get a surprise kill or two if the wrong set is expected.

[Professor Layton]

Goddamn sun and rain are gonna have a lot of fun this time around. I'm looking forward to what Sawsbuck will accomplish, not to mention a nuke in the form of Charizard. Hell Yeah Ludicolo! Gonna love using it.

And with all these fast high powered weather threats, I wonder how well trick room will do?

Mesprit :(

[Nubagator]

We got such great mons this time around, Charizard, Sawsbuck, and ludicolo are all obviously pokemon that function really well in sun/rain, but they're all good stand alone pokes as well.

[Endorfins]

I think the lack of decent rapid spinners in the tier is really going to hamper Charizard. Cryogonal and Armaldo don't really have great synergy with Sun and spinning loses alot of momentum. I'm going to have to say that rain is really going to be taking off this round, not only Ludicolo but also Gorebyss which together act as a wall breaking duo. Gorebyss at +2 in the rain is absolutely terrifying and almost nothing can wall Ludicolo.

Absol usage is definitely going to skyrocket as not only is it a great sweeper, it is also one of the best checks to weather sweepers with it's insanely powerful Sucker Punch.

[DTC]

I'll be opening a weather thread in a few days as it seems like it's a huge threat from the posts in this thread and a few battles I've played today. In the meantime, try to find some good checks/counters to weather and playtest with it more!

So the Pokemon that is getting the most discussion over at #neverused is Charizard. Choice Specs Charizard's power in the sun is incredibly insane; however, if you are not using sun, Magmortar is usually the better choice for a choiced Pokemon. Charizard's niche outside of the sun is, in my opinion, Roost. I've been having a ton of fun with this set so far:

Charizard (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Roost
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash

Basically you try to set up a Substitute on whatever you can and start firing attacks. Roost is useful for healing when you need to, and Charizard is actually not that frail. SubRoost Charizard works pretty well even without Rapid Spin support, but it is definitely recommended. The Speed EV's are there to outspeed base 95's, but you can just run max Speed if you want to speed tie with Pokemon such as Raichu and opposing Charizard.

LO Torterra is a pretty good partner to this Charizard. It demolishes most of this Charizard's checks and counters such as Regirock and Golem while Charizard does the same back. It does have a few problems with some Pokemon that check Charizard, however, such as Samurott who can defeat both pretty easily.

Some other Charizard sets I'm going to try soon are Life Orb Roost, Dragon Dance, and Belly Drum.

For all Charizard users out there who are using Charizard extensively, I'd like you to answer the following questions:

• Does Charizard need Stealth Rock away from the field to be effective?
• How effective is Charizard if Stealth Rock is on the field; how do you play differently with Charizard when Stealth Rock is on the field?
• How effective is Charizard with Stealth Rock off the field? Is it potentially gamebreaking?
• What sets appreciate Rapid Spin support more than others?
• What are some ways you can deal with Charizard (especially Choice Specs Charizard when sun is up!) other than Stealth Rock?

Ludicolo is very interesting as well. Of course, a rain sweeper set is very good inside rain and even outside rain (it can set rain itself pretty well); however, I've been having some success with a more defensive Ludicolo:

Ludicolo (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Scald
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed

Ludicolo is surprisingly bulky; with these EV's it can easily tank various hits such as Nasty Plot Misdreavus' Shadow Ball and Life Orb Shell Smash Gorebyss. It can tank physical attacks pretty well too, however, I've been thinking about dumping most of the Defense EV's to Special Defense because extra Special Defense would be very useful for certain situations.

I haven't used Bambi that much so far, but so far I'm liking LO Swords Dance and Sub/Aroma/Synthesis Swords Dance Bambi. I've been thinking about using a utility Sawsbuck as it has cool moves such as Thunder Wave and Aromatherapy, but Sawsbuck is quite frail so the set probably won't be very effective.

While these tier changes were quite small, I like the new tier so far! I'm interested to see how the meta develops and how powerful weather can truly be. Weather was amazing last meta, but in this meta, it's even better! So go out there and ladder with some weather teams! (Don't solely use weather teams, though; it gets annoying after awhile. xD)

Also, for those wondering why I haven't started the new research week yet, it's because I want the meta to "settle down" a bit before doing it. I'll start it next Sunday.

[ChaoticaMortis]

I'm glad people are finally starting to pay attention to sun, and I think it's definitely going to see a spike during this round. We've already had cool 'mons like Specseggutor, Shiftry, Magmortar, and Camerupt to go around raging in the Sun for quite a long time now, but the introduction of Charizard and Sawsbuck is really going to set things off; we didn't get shitty Pokemon from RU, we received things that can viably dominate this tier with proper support. It's going to be fun seeing all the new strategies that develop around these new Pokemon.
Also, I think it would be a great idea to start running Swellow, Braviary, or maybe even Dodrio on your teams, considering that half of Sun offense is of the Grass-type, and Rain's newest abuser is also a (half) Grass Pokemon. Of course, with Chlorophyll / Swift Swim boosting the speed of those 'mons, it might not be as easy as it sounds to fight back. As already stated, Altaria is starting to look pretty damn good.

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat ChaoticaMortis

I'm glad people are finally starting to pay attention to sun, and I think it's definitely going to see a spike during this round. We've already had cool 'mons like Specseggutor, Shiftry, Magmortar, and Camerupt to go around raging in the Sun for quite a long time now, but the introduction of Charizard and Sawsbuck is really going to set things off; we didn't get shitty Pokemon from RU, we received things that can viably dominate this tier with proper support. It's going to be fun seeing all the new strategies that develop around these new Pokemon.
Also, I think it would be a great idea to start running Swellow, Braviary, or maybe even Dodrio on your teams, considering that half of Sun offense is of the Grass-type, and Rain's newest abuser is also a (half) Grass Pokemon. Of course, with Chlorophyll / Swift Swim boosting the speed of those 'mons, it might not be as easy as it sounds to fight back. As already stated, Altaria is starting to look pretty damn good.

Thanks to sun getting more popular, Altaria faces another problem: What ability should it use? Natural Cure is very useful; however, if you use Natural Cure, you can't check sun nearly as well and get 2HKO'd by Charizard.

Is it worth not using Natural Cure to check sun? I think it depends on your team; if it's really weak to sun and you're desperate for a reliable sun check, Cloud Nine is the way to go. If your team needs a status absorber and doesn't mind sun that much, Natural Cure is the way to go.

[ChaoticaMortis]

Personally, I haven't made a new team yet for this round, but I usually have something with Heal Bell / Aromatherapy on my team out of convenience, so for me it wouldn't be that hard of a choice. Many useful Pokemon such as Miltank, Vileplume, and iirc Misdreavus get those moves, and are very good Pokemon regardless. Thick Fat Miltank especially could be helpful to Altaria as it basically resists Ice attacks, can heal it, and also support the team in other ways (Stealth Rock, Toxic, etc.).

EDIT: More of me just bumping a Pokemon than anything else, but Samurott is just as good as he's always been, and in Rain, his attacks are just that much more devastating.

[FLCL]

Charizard

---

I've been using a 3 attack Charizard with Roost and it plays very similarly to Moltres in RU. I have been able to plow through teams even when I couldn't guarantee Rocks off the field due to Charizard's decent bulk and Roost, but with Rocks off the field it has a much easier time sweeping.

The Solar Power set is, for lack of a better word, extremely Powerful; it OHKOs even bulky resists such as Alomomola. However, it must have enough team support to keep Rocks off the field. Rapid spin is not the only method, Taunt, powerful attacks, and multi-hit moves can also prevent the opponent from setting up Rocks.

Ludicolo

---

For Ludicolo, the specially defensive set is extremely effective at walling powerful special attackers such as Samurott, Gorebyss, and even opposing Ludicolo in rain. However, the problem with that set is that Gorebyss and Special Samurott are not very popular in the current metagame. Rain is also less used since everyone is hyping over Charizard and the sun it needs to have.

I'm sure everyone is familiar with Ludicolo in the rain, it hits hard for around 6 or 7 turns but is extremely predicable. It is also prone to revenge kills by Absol, Skuntank, and anything over base 100 speed with a positive nature wielding a Choice Scarf, such as Electabuzz and Raichu.

Sawsboss

---

Sawsbuck is imo the most effective out of the three 'mons to drop into NU. Unlike Charizard, it doesn't need much team support to start sweeping. A simple Choice Band set can 2HKO the entire tier if it manages to grab an attack boost. Even Tangela is dealt with by a +1 CB Megahorn. The SD set is equally dangerous if you can find an extra turn to set up.

In the sun, Sawsbuck is just as, if not more dangerous than Charizard. It outspeeds everything in the tier besides Jumpluff in the sun, making it extremely hard to revenge kill. With no bulk invested, it can also barely survive an Absol Sucker Punch (83.06% - 98.01%).

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

• Does Charizard need Stealth Rock away from the field to be effective?
• How effective is Charizard if Stealth Rock is on the field; how do you play differently with Charizard when Stealth Rock is on the field?
• How effective is Charizard with Stealth Rock off the field? Is it potentially gamebreaking?
• What sets appreciate Rapid Spin support more than others?
• What are some ways you can deal with Charizard (especially Choice Specs Charizard when sun is up!) other than Stealth Rock?

1.No, SR away only makes his job easier and revenge killing harder but can still Nuke with his fire blast.
2. I just use it as a nuke so...is not like it matters, but SR is not up often because I have shit that ohkoes all common SR setters.
3.See 1.
4. Bellyzard obviously....jokes aside non Sun Charizard that lacks roost.
5. There is only one way , outspeeding it after he nukes something.

With everyone expecting special Charizard I feel like trying DD zard as it beats like everything that would stop the Special one(without sun obviously).

[ChaoticaMortis]

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

1.No, SR away only makes his job easier and revenge killing harder but can still Nuke with his fire blast.
2. I just use it as a nuke so...is not like it matters, but SR is not up often because I have shit that ohkoes all common SR setters.
3.See 1.
4. Bellyzard obviously....jokes aside non Sun Charizard that lacks roost.
5. There is only one way , outspeeding it after he nukes something.

With everyone expecting special Charizard I feel like trying DD zard as it beats like everything that would stop the Special one(without sun obviously).

Well...there's always priority. Absol, Samurott, and even Persian (lol) say hi.

[Raseri]

I'm really liking Tank Ludicolo so far. Adding synthesis to him really increases his survivability(obviously) and healing on a weak attack is really fun. Ludi is surprisingly bulky

[Amarillo]

I really like SubRoost Charizard as a standalone Pokemon (same idea as DTC): it still has power with Life Orb + Blaze if needed , and it can last for a while. It's also brilliant with Toxic Spikes, too! The thing about Charizard and Sawsbuck is that they're very excellent standalone Pokemon without Sun. Of course, wrecking people with Sun is still fun, but I guess they dropped because they required dedicated weather teams in RU to be viable: in NU, they're simply good on their own. Even Ludicolo has a great tank set, and very few things bar opposing Grass-types can reliably take it on. Grass-types are wrecked by the omnipresent Charizard right now, so Ludicolo gets even harder to face.

Oh, and Charizard and Sawsbuck both stand on ridiculous speed tiers, outspeeding nearly everything popular bar Swellow and Cinccino.

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

Hello, ladies. Let's do some calcs.

Timid Solar Power Choice Specs Charizard in Sun:

vs 252/252+ Regirock: 209-246 (57.41 - 67.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Regirock: 291-343 (79.94 - 94.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/0 Alomomola: 540-636 (101.12 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Lickilicky: 433-511 (102.12 - 120.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs 252/252+ Camerupt: 251-296 (72.96 - 86.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs 252/252+ Mantine: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.38%) -- 67.97% chance to 2HKO (probably your best bet here)
vs 252/252+ Cloud Nine Altaria: 90-107 (25.42 - 30.22%) -- possible 4HKO (oh yeah cloud nine, HP Ice still ohkoes so watch out for that)
vs 252/252+ Volbeat in Rain: 224-266 (67.26 - 79.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mean... there's nothing that checks it in sun save Cloud Nine Altaria (who I expect to get a lot more popular...).

And yes, Absol usage is definitely going to spike. x__x It essentially needs to.

Can you include calculations for thick fat miltank and Grumpig? (Preferably max Hp and Sp-Def with positive Sp-Def nature)

[Axa]

Miltank and Grumpig are 2HKO's as well, as far as I know.

Still, Charizard is the least threatening of the three to me- aside from having a crippling weakness to SR, it also loses 1/8 of it's health every turn if Sun is up, so it can be theoratically stalled up with combinations of Protect, Sub, recovery moves, and the occcasional Fire Blast miss.

LO Flash Fire Rapidash also takes on Charizard decently- it can switch into Fire Blast or HP Grass, then outspeed net a guaranteed KO with Wild Charge thanks to Solar Power. After that, recover health with Morning Sun or abuse a Sun boosted Flare Blitz of your own.

I'm wondering if SpecsZard would be better off carrying HP Rock or Ice rather than Grass- considering every Water-type in the tier is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast anyway, and it would be nice to nail Flash Fire Pokes or Altaria. The only exceptions are Corsola and Relicanth.

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

Can you include calculations for thick fat miltank and Grumpig? (Preferably max Hp and Sp-Def with positive Sp-Def nature)

vs 252 HP/252 sp.def+ Thick fat Miltank: 66.5%-78.43%
vs 252 HP/252Sp.def+ Thick Fat Grumpig: 53.85%-63.74%

Originally Posted by Fat Axa

I'm wondering if SpecsZard would be better off carrying HP Rock or Ice rather than Grass- considering every Water-type in the tier is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast anyway, and it would be nice to nail Flash Fire Pokes or Altaria. The only exceptions are Corsola and Relicanth.

About that, I am currently using Solarbeam instead of hp grass giving me slot to run hp ice to nail Altaria that try to outsmart Charizard while ohkoing everything except Miltank that I would with Focus Blast using Solarbeam(see sp.def Regirock) so if I can predict them coming they will be gone before they touch Charizard. Flash fire pokemon are handled with Air Slash+SR that allows me to 2HKO Lampent and Flareon no matter what and in case of Rapidash and lol Heatmor OHKO while they hope I pick Fire Blast instead.

[DestinyUnknown]

So I have tried Sun today and I can't get how we overlooked so much Victreebel last round, it's completely amazing! I mean, nobody used him before because well, nobody used sun, but now i'm noticing how good he is!

Oh, and Sawsbuck is really good too, I completely agree that it works both in sun and as a standalone sweeper. I have also found substitute very useful since the answer most people pack to weather sweepers is Absol's Sucker Punch, and Substitue obviously helps a lot with that.

[Amarillo]

If you're afraid of Absol Sucker Punch, Sawsbuck's another great feature is that boosted Nature Power will automatically bypass Sucker Punch and OHKO easily =P

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Fat Amarillo

If you're afraid of Absol Sucker Punch, Sawsbuck's another great feature is that boosted Nature Power will automatically bypass Sucker Punch and OHKO easily =P

Wait seriously? That's fuckin awesome Amarillo!!

Also Gurdurr is a nice stop to Absol

I'm imagining a team with Charizard / Sawsbuck / Victreebel + w/e + w/e + w/e