(Gen 3) Unofficial ADV OU meta discussion

[Triangles]

ADV OU - often praised by many as a tier of balance, can be seen as a happy medium in between the drawn-out stalemates where players have on average 2 birthdays per game that plague GSC, and the offensive RainTurnSandDragVoltSunMagDonkey spam death-every-other-turn metagames of BW2. The purist's metagame has almost come to a standstill in its development. It has gone through many phases, fluctuating between an infestation with SkarmBlissClopsDolCuneFiller teams (and then Boah reared its head), TSS teams such as Superman, and CMspam and mole teams. Many cores, both offensive and defensive, have been around since cavemen walked the earth - you'd see many a prehistoric hunter-gatherer tribe dancing around a fire and singing gleefully about how Swampert and Flygon in conjunction allowed a team to cover Electrics universally, or mumbling about Curselax and Magneton while foraging for berries, or carving crude drawings of Metagross and Zapdos onto cave walls. However, some new cores have developed in recent times, expertly crafted by the smooth moisturised hands of excellent players such as M Dragon. Two such notable comparatively newer cores are the infamous Forretress Gengar PursuitTar core, designed to keep hazard control - helping Forretress keep its own Spikes up (Gengar spinblocks), and spin those of the opposing team away (TTar removes spinblockers). Fill the remaining three slots in your team with defensive juggernauts which fill the holes, and you have an all-singing, all-dancing ADV OU team. Another perhaps lesser-known core is the DoubleDognDug team style. The idea is to use CM Suicune and CM Raikou, along with Dugtrio (sometimes Adamant for Bliss when Suicune is Offensive nonSubCM), which can trap threats to the pair such as Roarkou, Heracross, and Jirachi. Add Exploders, cover weaknesses, and a team is born, forged from the mines of Isengard. ADV OU is a fun metagame to get into, and there are a wealth of strategies waiting to be explored.

Currently, over the past 3 or so months, Cloyster teams have dropped out of the meta again, partially due to the newfound ubiquity of Toxic Skarmory, which screws it over, in that now Spikes will go down against Cloy teams. CM Blissey is possibly the most common Blissey set among top players currently, and many a Blissey sweep is pulled off against unprepared teams. Due to the influx in Calm Mind Blissey, Curselax is gradually returning to its original position of being chosen above 4 attacks MixLax.

[ThatGuyNamedJoseph]

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

the ADV metagame was the only one that ever interested me. For me, it felt like a middle ground between the stallfests that were Gen 1 and 2 and the weather-and-Volt-Turn-infested, overcentralised Gen 5 meta

This. Also, nostalgic sprites are nice too. And I more often see interesting EV spreads on Smogon for 3rd gen OU, instead of the usual plain 252 in two stats spreads on the 4th and 5th gen articles. The added hp EVs keeps ADV from being too fast-paced.

Something I enjoy and recommend doing in all metagames, but especially 3rd gen OU, is sticking a surprise right in the middle of what seems to be a standard moveset, i.e Explosion in place of Rest on the standard Regice. Always catches folks off guard, and Explosion is pretty powerful on just about everything. Change the nature to a -Speed nature of course, unless you're paranoid about Swampert.

[meteor64]

Things that need to see more use-

-Lanturn-
The OP already covered this, but Lanturn is a totally underrated Pokemon. Good special bulk, BoltBeam resist (fuck Magneton), Volt Absorb, incredible synergy with things such as Cloyster, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Aerodactyl, Skarmory. It struggles against physical threats (though it can switch in on Banded HP Flyings), is walled by Celebi, and is easily revenged by Dugtrio, and has only Rest for recovery, which really lets it down. But aside from those minutiae, Lanturn is far from outclassed in OU, and can wall the vast majority of Waters in the tier (exceptions being Gyarados and Swampert, who Lanturn can still piss off with a well timed Toxic). While it can't switch into Gyara, it certainly stops it from switching in, and if you can predict well, CB Mence and Aero shouldn't cause too much problems. Really good at luring them in too, so you can catch them with a Thunder Wave/bolt. Often I've found that, Celebi withstanding, the opponent simply doesn't have a safe switch in to Lanturn.

-Porygon2-
Stats akin to Swampert (with a more special bias), offense similar to Regice, type and recovery similar to Blissey. Porygon2 is just such a good tank, and outside of things like CB Heracross Focus Punch, nothing really OHKOes it. It can even pretend to be Regice with Psych Up, if status isn't to your liking. Porygon2 can reliably wall Gyarados, Aerodactyl and Salamence, which is something Bulky Waters have issues with. Also, it's a godsend to Magtrio weak teams, since it can just trace their trapping ability and beat them down (killing Magneton would need HP Fire).

-Cacturne-
I know it sounds stupid, but Cacturne is actually incredibly more viable than it may look. It can serve as an impressive alternative to Breloom in a team with Tyranitar.
Its slow as hell, can't take a hit, revenged by Dugtrio, crappy defensive typing, etc etc- basically, its nearly impossible to get in. It does have one fairly reliable switch in, however, in Celebi, who it completely blanks unless it carries CM with HP Grass/Fire. There are others, such as Dugtrio locked on EQ, Thunderbolt Starmie, or non HP Bug Forretress (you'll need a good reason to let him Spike up on you though). But on the whole, its almost a scarring experience trying to get Cacturne in.
But when you get him in, what can you do? (Hint: Spikes are worthless on him). The best set I've found is a mixed attacking SubSeed set.

Cacturne (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 160 HP / 212 Atk / 136 SAtk
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Focus Punch
- Hidden Power [Dark]
- Leech Seed
- Substitute

It looks retarded. But it works. Only use this in Sand Stream. Once you're in, first order is to Substitute up. This is because they'll bring in their Cacturne "counter" as you do so, and on the next turn where they attempt to break your Sub, Sand Veil has a chance of kicking in and letting you get that extra turn. Leech Seed is generally second order, and if Sand Veil activates, you can toy with them by Subbing on their next predicted attack, or just hitting them hard with an attack. Remember that Sand Veil prevents sandstorm damage, meaning you're gaining Lefties and Leech Seed, whilst they're likely not gaining Lefties and are being drained.

Hidden Power Dark seems stupid, why mix EVs when you could just go HP Ghost/Bug? The fact is, HP Dark with this spread actually deals 50% minimum to Celebi, so non-CM variants have no hope- remember, Leftovers will be neutralised by Sand Stream, so any hope of Recovering damage off goes out of the window. If they do have CM, they still can't touch you barring their own HP, and all it takes is a crit (which mean if they want to try and stall you out, they'll probably lose).
HP Dark also still allows you to OHKO most Gengar, almost definitely after sandstorm. It also works as an excellent lure for it, especially when they see you're SubPunch.

Behind a Sub, the tables completely turn, and what you couldn't switch in on before (like Swampert, Regice, Milotic, Salamence, Gyarados, Metagross) will have a horrid time trying to stop you from being a prick with Sand Veil and Leech Seed.

Anyway, enough Cacturne ranting. This is supposed to be metagame analysis.

-Blaziken-
Its the anti-metagame Pokemon of ADV, and now moreso than ever. Celebi, Snorlax, Mence, and T-Tar are the most used at the moment, so why not run a special based HP Ice set? ThunderPunch to wreck Starmie and Gyara on the switch, HP Ice to catch Mence/Flygon, Fire move for Celebi, and Fighting move for Lax/Tar.

-Sceptile-
The rise in popularity of Electrics in general means Sceptile can be utilised easier now (since HP Ice on Electrics has become almost non-existent). I've been running HP Ice to catch Mence who think I run HP Fire like most.

-Encore/Perish Song/Taunt-
Baton Pass is on the rise. Noobs are all over the place spamming Ninjask, Umbreon and CM Celebi. It's pretty crappy tbh, but it needs adapting to.

[Triangles]

Agreed. Cacturne is seriously underrated and so are Lanturn and Porygon2. I've actually just written an OU analysis update for Lanturn in ADV. Just to ask, are you TM1337 Falcon Punch?

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

Agreed. Cacturne is seriously underrated and so are Lanturn and Porygon2. I've actually just written an OU analysis update for Lanturn in ADV. Just to ask, are you TM1337 Falcon Punch?

Thats me. Am I famous all of a sudden?

And damn, you beat me to the Lanturn analysis. I've been considering doing it for a while now.

This is the set I've been using-

Lanturn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 216 SAtk / 252 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave

Outside of Celebi and Venusaur, not a whole lot can switch in without taking something it dislikes. Basically like the Parafusion set, but screws up Swampert, Flygon, Ludicolo and friends. Also can beat Raikou with some prediction.

[Triangles]

Thats me. Am I famous all of a sudden?

No, I've just seen both alts on the server wiht similar teams.

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

No, I've just seen both alts on the server wiht similar teams.

I don't recall seeing a Triangles, so I'm apologise if I don't recognise you.

Just a thing to note, Gyarados + Lanturn beat every bulky water out there, except other Gyarados.

[Triangles]

No - I use the alt spheal01. Lanturn is awesome, especially when paired with something like Gyara - I use a RestTalk set, it just won't die.

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

No - I use the alt spheal01. Lanturn is awesome, especially when paired with something like Gyara - I use a RestTalk set, it just won't die.

NOW I know you. You're good.

Gyara, I think, should be a top threat among the likes of Metagross, because Taunt completely shuts down a lot of things that people rely on to take down physical threats. There was a time, not long back, where people just simply didn't prepare for it, and how much fun did I have... Teams should either carry Skarm, Zapdos, Porygon2, or something designed to take it on, like HP Electric Cune or Cloy. Aerodactyl and Jolteon don't cut it, since Aero can't take repeated HP Flyings and Jolly Gyara (which is what should be run 100% in all honesty) can just EQ Jolt after a DD.

[Danilo]

Lanturn is terrible. Its fine against bulky waters but celebi is just much better in everyway. Celebi can take hp bug and beat dugtrio with hp grass. Lanturn just dies to he mole. Lanturn's stats are mediocre too.

[Danilo]

Anyone have creative ways of dealing with suicune?

[Triangles]

Lapras is the best Suicune counter in the game, no question. It absorbs Surf, it 4x resists Ice Beam, it doesn't give a shit about being Roared , it can hit it with Thunderbolt or Phaze it out with Roar or Perish Song (Perish Song is particularly useful for the dreaded last poke CMcune). Poliwrath works well as it has Water Absorb too and can even pull off a Belly Drum on it if it's lucky and actually do some damage. Tentacruel with Haze and Toxic beats Suicune as well. That's all I can think of off the top of my head for creative counters. Oh yeah, Mantine with Haze and Toxic works decently against any non-Ice Beam variant and Psych Up Regice defecates on Suicune.
Lanturn (which you seem to object to) also stops the new breed of Suicune that you see quite a bit on the ladder - (the Offensive CM with some Speed investment, and Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and HP Electric), but generally the best bet when countering the overgrown blue Labrador is just to force it to Rest and hit it hard with something like CB Heracross when it's asleep.

[Danilo]

any advice that's not already listen on smogon?

[Triangles]

Sorry about the last reply, some of it was kinda nicked from the on-site bit. I'm afraid that everything that works really well at the job is pretty much listed on-site.

[meteor64]

Lanturn is pretty much the most viable creative way you're gonna get. Take it or leave it.
Edit- Or you could be a prick with Gengar and use Snatch. Snatch a CM and GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. More likely than not you'll switch in on a CM and die to a Surf though.

[Triangles]

Time to rejuvenate this thread with some mentions of more stuff that needs moar usage.

Regirock - despite having that undesirable pure Rock typing, it is actually quite decent in this meta with the ability to function as a decent stop to Salamence, Curselax and most Gyarados - the ones without Hydro Pump (lawl) and even then it takes jack shit from that, it can tank physical hits in general (although beware of the single most threatening thing in ADV, Metagross), it can Curse up on things such as Tyranitar, and it can also Explode when you're finished, on something like a Swampert, Celebi, or Suicune switch-in (Regirock only takes about 60% from standard Suicune Surf and about the same or a bit less from standard 120 SpA Swampert Hydro Pump, and Celebi can't actively hurt it that much, so it can live to tell the tale and... kill itsself) to punch holes in the opposing team and leave them open to beng swept.

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

Time to rejuvenate this thread with some mentions of more stuff that needs moar usage.

Regirock - despite having that undesirable pure Rock typing, it is actually quite decent in this meta with the ability to function as a decent stop to Salamence, Curselax and most Gyarados - the ones without Hydro Pump (lawl) and even then it takes jack shit from that, it can tank physical hits in general (although beware of the single most threatening thing in ADV, Metagross), it can Curse up on things such as Tyranitar, and it can also Explode when you're finished, on something like a Swampert, Celebi, or Suicune switch-in (Regirock only takes about 60% from standard Suicune Surf and about the same or a bit less from standard 120 SpA Swampert Hydro Pump, and Celebi can't actively hurt it that much, so it can live to tell the tale and... kill itsself) to punch holes in the opposing team and leave them open to beng swept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evvVy...feature=relmfu

Skip to about 2:30, CB Metagross does 50% with MM after 2 Curses, gg Meta. Normally Meta would win though, I agree. However, non CB Meta would have trouble switching in and killing.

Regirock's an offensive beast, only problem is that it generally only kills stuff by kabooming, and 1-1 trades aren't always desirable.

Also, Sharpen Porygon2 in conjunction with Celebi/Heracross is awesome. If Duggy comes in to revenge either, you can just send in P2, trace its own Arena Trap and Sharpen/Recover in its face. GG Dugtrio and probably another Pokemon after that.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Alright I've been wondering why unprotected Focus Punch is recommended on so many things. What makes it that popular in Gen 3 that doesn't make it that way in Gen 4/Gen 5.

[Crystal_]

Switches happen more commonly and the next best figthing move in Brick Break (almost nothing learns CC)

[Umby]

Regirock's not bad, it's just outclassed. Base 100 Atk is respectable, but when most of your EVs are invested to make you a wall, you lose out on the same offense (and, naturally, speed) that Aerodactyl and and Tyranitar get without needing to Curse. On defense, it's a super solid wall, but you don't really get any utility out of it, except maybe Thunder Wave. Skarmory and Forretress, on the other hand, can Spike, Roar/Whirlwind, and Rapid Spin, respectively and be more useful in the long run. Unless you're putting in work to clear out Regirock's obstacles (like Suicune, Swampert, or even Skarmory) beforehand, you're inevitably looking to take out those same obstacles for someone else on your team via Curse + Explosion.

[Triangles]

Originally Posted by Fat Umby

Regirock's not bad, it's just outclassed. Base 100 Atk is respectable, but when most of your EVs are invested to make you a wall, you lose out on the same offense (and, naturally, speed) that Aerodactyl and and Tyranitar get without needing to Curse. On defense, it's a super solid wall, but you don't really get any utility out of it, except maybe Thunder Wave. Skarmory and Forretress, on the other hand, can Spike, Roar/Whirlwind, and Rapid Spin, respectively and be more useful in the long run. Unless you're putting in work to clear out Regirock's obstacles (like Suicune, Swampert, or even Skarmory) beforehand, you're inevitably looking to take out those same obstacles for someone else on your team via Curse + Explosion.

I think that really the idea of Regirock is not to serve as a utility counter like something such as Donphan would, nor as a support poke like Skarm or Forry (I’m not saying that those two are pure support, they are walls also), nor as a sweeper like TTar or Aero would, but as a “holepuncher” or wallbreaker, like a Boomlax, to open an opposing team up to a sweeper like DDMence by booming on that Cune/Milo/Pert that switches into both of them. Regirock is generally a 1/1 trade with the opponent in most circumstances as Meteor64 said – you just have to make sure you choose the right trade.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Regirock (and also Registeel and Regice) used to be in OU at the beginning.

I think Regirock and Registeel being weak to Earthquake really hurt them.

But I think the real nail in the coffin was when people started discovering Focus Punch, and it was everywhere. Especially since Regirock would normally switch into phsically offensive Pokemon, you lost a massive chunk of your health if you switched into Focus Punch.

I think people generally preferred Pokemon like Donphan, Dusclops, Skarmory, etc. who could switch into Focus Punch more easily.

[rekt]

focus punch regice lead>

[Danilo]

Originally Posted by Fat rekt

focus punch regice lead>

No
Flygon is really good
Also the Pursuit Tyranitar, Forretress, Gengar core is so boss and really flexible :D :DD :D:D:D:D

[420]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

Alright I've been wondering why unprotected Focus Punch is recommended on so many things. What makes it that popular in Gen 3 that doesn't make it that way in Gen 4/Gen 5.

blissy

and fighting types like CB heracross might run it to hurt skarmory harder