Smogon University PO Statistics — March 2012

[Cobraroll]

BW2 is bound to shake up the metagame, and it's less than three months away. If people want to do something about the "stale" metagame, ban things or allow things and whatnot, wait until those games are released first. To use a metaphor: The waters might look calm now, but there are falling objects incoming. Before you petition for building a wave machine, wait until we know the size and composition of those objects.

[nyczxjay]

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

At long last, Moveset and metagame analyses are up:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464495#4

Thanks for the stats Antar! But the 1337 link doesn't work it seems.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat nyczxjay

Thanks for the stats Antar! But the 1337 link doesn't work it seems.

Fixed!

[TickingSeedotBomb]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

BW2 is bound to shake up the metagame, and it's less than three months away. If people want to do something about the "stale" metagame, ban things or allow things and whatnot, wait until those games are released first. To use a metaphor: The waters might look calm now, but there are falling objects incoming. Before you petition for building a wave machine, wait until we know the size and composition of those objects.

This, whether it introduces move tutors, or new formes or whatever. Also, I wonder if Keldeo will shake up the metagame, I highly doubt it, but who knows. Especially depending on the tutorable moves that BW2 introduces

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

whoa whoa hold the phone! Since when has Scarf MoxieMence become the most popular Salamence set >_> I never tried it but it's that good?

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

whoa whoa hold the phone! Since when has Scarf MoxieMence become the most popular Salamence set >_> I never tried it but it's that good?

I haven't tried it, but I can give you the theory behind it. Basically, Moxie fits Salamence like a glove. Thanks to its ridiculous coverage, a lot of teams rely on sacking a Pokemon to deal with it... which when you have Moxie, is a MASSIVE mistake. Choice Scarf + Moxie gives you the equivalent of a DD boost and can be unstoppable late game. Even before late game you get an extremely potent revenge killer to use. I can see why it gets used so often... though honestly, I still see Mix Mence and DD Mence more often so I don't know how there are so many scarfers O.o

[M BLADE]

Meh, for me it's simple: it's a scarfer like many others, with very good attack and good speed, except it gets a boost everytime it kills something. Isn't revenge killing the purpose of scarf users (and checking faster threats too)?
To help, Salamence can spam dragon attacks, which are almost unresisted, so it doesn't mind getting locked on a attack as much as other scarfers.
So, it's that good.

And it's the only possible set that Dragonite can't just copy and give Salamence a hard time getting into your team. Maybe.

[Taylor]

I know sand teams are primarily offensive due to popular abusers such as Terrakion and Landorus wielding the power and coverage to do so, but how does ScarfTar fashion "sand-stall" in BW?

For those who don't remember my old Taylor Stall back from Gen 4, I utilized Choice Scarf Tyranitar with a combination of stall Pokemon and created such a team which was considered one of the premier stall teams from DP; falling short of Earthworm's stellar Hippowdon/Gyarados control.

This has got me thinking since Brii managed to top the Dream World ladder with Hippowdon, and how I have seen users like Ojama have success with it on the Standard OU ladder also. Which Pokemon do you find are vitally important and have a place on sand-stall?

ScarfTar holds "sand-stall" together remarkably well even though most teams nowadays usually have five members which can hit Tyranitar for super effective damage; ultimately that doesn't guarantee that they can outspeed you. This allows you switch in more freely when looking for that opportunity to summon sand, and surprise OHKO a troublesome Pokemon while you do so. It was always a pleasure trapping Starmie and striking first.

[The QWAZ]

Despite mainly playing DW i am really liking OU at the moment because aside from the top 10 there seems to be a lot more diversity than a couple of months ago, probalby because of the dar horse project, but i've found agiligross to be extremely powerful in this metagame and i am stunned by it's very low usage

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat The QWAZ

Despite mainly playing DW i am really liking OU at the moment because aside from the top 10 there seems to be a lot more diversity than a couple of months ago, probalby because of the dar horse project, but i've found agiligross to be extremely powerful in this metagame and i am stunned by it's very low usage

Really? I've never had Metagross do more than scratch me all BW. Maybe that's because I always have a reliable physical wall that can Phaze it (often more than one in fact... I'm a very defensive player overall), but still, I fail to see how Metagross is really good. I guess against offense teams, but it can't muscle through modern stall to save its life, and just about any physically defensive Pokemon out there these days can handle it.

Just my two cents on why it's so low in usage... why use it when you have stuff like Terrakion around that can actually muscle through a number of walls?

[The QWAZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Really? I've never had Metagross do more than scratch me all BW. Maybe that's because I always have a reliable physical wall that can Phaze it (often more than one in fact... I'm a very defensive player overall), but still, I fail to see how Metagross is really good. I guess against offense teams, but it can't muscle through modern stall to save its life, and just about any physically defensive Pokemon out there these days can handle it.

Just my two cents on why it's so low in usage... why use it when you have stuff like Terrakion around that can actually muscle through a number of walls?

Metagross has a higher base attack and a lot more resistances than terrakion, it can also do a snowball attempt with meteor mash and most common pokemon on a stall team cannot switch in on a +1 metagross with out risking a 2ko, gyrados can be an issue if it lacks thunder punch but it should always have that anyway because gliscor is outspeed and 2ko'd by a +2/+1 metagross.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat The QWAZ

Metagross has a higher base attack and a lot more resistances than terrakion, it can also do a snowball attempt with meteor mash and most common pokemon on a stall team cannot switch in on a +1 metagross with out risking a 2ko, gyrados can be an issue if it lacks thunder punch but it should always have that anyway because gliscor is outspeed and 2ko'd by a +2/+1 metagross.

Terrakion Close Cobat has more BP, so the small margin of 6 base stat attck points makes terrakion stronger. However the snowballing effect of Meteor Mash is definitely there and when it happens it can put a lot of teams into panick. Two aspects a lot of people overlook on Metagross is his access to trick and his surprisinglvery high physical bulk. Trick sets him apart from most physical attackers and its very satisfying to trick a CB onto a poke after wrecking things. Iron ball is also a great lure for skarm/rotom-w. I"ve been meaning to try out a rest-talk set, but I believe due to hiis higher hp metagross has more physical bulk than skarmory.

[The Silent Storm]

Meh, if you want to use Agilgross in OU Zen Headbutt it's better, meteor mash, no offense but steel sucks as an offensive type, well not that psychic is so great, but you can pick up Rotom-w for good damage
He could be paired up ironically with cbterrakion, who can lure in Skarmory and Gliscor and take them down/weakening them.
Anyway, once again, thanks for the stats and the hard work Antar!

[Ignitrua]

Good to see OU has changed a lot -____-

Also, physical wall Metagross would be an interesting set to try out. Next step in anti-sandstorm gaming!

[The QWAZ]

Originally Posted by Fat The Silent Storm

Meh, if you want to use Agilgross in OU Zen Headbutt it's better, meteor mash, no offense but steel sucks as an offensive type, well not that psychic is so great, but you can pick up Rotom-w for good damage

Scizor begs to differ and hitting t-tar and terrakion for super effective damage is always nice and you're point about rotom-w is moot due to thunder punch

[The Silent Storm]

Not really
34.9% - 41.3%
Thunderpunch fails to 2hko 112/0 rotom-w, so you end up burned and then useless for the rest of the match
Zen Headbutt on the other hand is a clean 2hko (56.1% - 66.2%) if you have sr with you you also have high chance to 2hko him even if he burns you
As for Scizor, he's a different case, Bullet Punch is often used as a way to revenge stuff, and set like the sd can sweep thanks to Technician, an ability that Metagross doesn't have it

[The QWAZ]

At +1/+2 rhunder punch is a certian 2ko on rotom-w and you outspped thanks to aglity
Im not sayong its perfect buts it an overlooked threat that people should prepare for

[Joeyboy]

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

I know sand teams are primarily offensive due to popular abusers such as Terrakion and Landorus wielding the power and coverage to do so, but how does ScarfTar fashion "sand-stall" in BW?

For those who don't remember my old Taylor Stall back from Gen 4, I utilized Choice Scarf Tyranitar with a combination of stall Pokemon and created such a team which was considered one of the premier stall teams from DP; falling short of Earthworm's stellar Hippowdon/Gyarados control.

This has got me thinking since Brii managed to top the Dream World ladder with Hippowdon, and how I have seen users like Ojama have success with it on the Standard OU ladder also. Which Pokemon do you find are vitally important and have a place on sand-stall?

ScarfTar holds "sand-stall" together remarkably well even though most teams nowadays usually have five members which can hit Tyranitar for super effective damage; ultimately that doesn't guarantee that they can outspeed you. This allows you switch in more freely when looking for that opportunity to summon sand, and surprise OHKO a troublesome Pokemon while you do so. It was always a pleasure trapping Starmie and striking first.

Yeah McMeghan just recently broke Top Ten on the ladder using Sand Stall with Hippowdon. It was for the Outsiders challenge too so he didn't use any of the Top Ten. I feel like Celebi and Latias go really well with Sand-Stall. Great utility and they have that crucial Water Resist. I'd be interested in seeing a Hippowdon/Gyarados Sand Stall team in Gen 5 as well. Glad Hippo is getting some recognition, while I haven't used him in a while he was one of my staples in Early Gen 5.

[The Silent Storm]

Originally Posted by Fat The QWAZ

At +1/+2 rhunder punch is a certian 2ko on rotom-w and you outspped thanks to aglity

And why there's a +1 on atk?

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat The Silent Storm

And why there's a +1 on atk?

because apparently you have enough free turns to get up an agility, meteor mash a couple of times and hope that you get the 20% chance to boost your attack, and then 2hko standard rotom-w with thunderpunch. it's not an underrated threat really, it's more like a threat that everyone can prepare for by making a decent team

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

Yeah McMeghan just recently broke Top Ten on the ladder using Sand Stall with Hippowdon. It was for the Outsiders challenge too so he didn't use any of the Top Ten. I feel like Celebi and Latias go really well with Sand-Stall. Great utility and they have that crucial Water Resist. I'd be interested in seeing a Hippowdon/Gyarados Sand Stall team in Gen 5 as well. Glad Hippo is getting some recognition, while I haven't used him in a while he was one of my staples in Early Gen 5.

I run into Meghan and he suffered at the hands of Sand Veil Gliscor... Hippowdon took just short of 90% damage from Swords Dance + Flight Gem and after a string of misses, there's no catching up when Gliscor is hiding behind Substitute. I was intrigued during team preview and admire how well MC did to achieve top 10 with said team

I am tired of Sand Veil making such a huge impact; it seems to be the difference between you losing a Pokemon, to unfairly evading such what is a 100% accurate move and coming out on top. It's very tedious at the top end of the Standard OU ladder because of this, and how Hydro Pump critical hits your Water-type resist right into the ground; they may miss the following turn because it is bound to miss at least once out of eight attempts

[Mario With Lasers]

The ubiquity of Sand Veil Gliscor *almost* makes me wish we had banned it instead of Garchomp. Ridiculous.

[lars]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

because apparently you have enough free turns to get up an agility, meteor mash a couple of times and hope that you get the 20% chance to boost your attack, and then 2hko standard rotom-w with thunderpunch.

Ah shoot I must have been using it wrong, because when I used it, Rotom-W always came in on the turn I used agility.

Or maybe just using it on the wrong end of the ladder...

lol

Anyway Metagross is ok, defense and resistances are cool and it's worth a surprise or two, but it is handled pretty well by most decent teams in my experience.

[Joeyboy]

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

I run into Meghan and he suffered at the hands of Sand Veil Gliscor... Hippowdon took just short of 90% damage from Swords Dance + Flight Gem and after a string of misses, there's no catching up when Gliscor is hiding behind Substitute. I was intrigued during team preview and admire how well MC did to achieve top 10 with said team

I am tired of Sand Veil making such a huge impact; it seems to be the difference between you losing a Pokemon, to unfairly evading such what is a 100% accurate move and coming out on top. It's very tedious at the top end of the Standard OU ladder because of this, and how Hydro Pump critical hits your Water-type resist right into the ground; they may miss the following turn because it is bound to miss at least once out of eight attempts

Wow! Almost a OHKO on Hippowdon, do you know if he was running SpDef or Defensive spread? Man, Gliscor is such an underrated threat. I mean everyone is aware of offensive Gliscor but its so often not talked about because of the "big" threats like Dragonite and Terrakion. But Sand Veil (deja vu) is all it needs to pull a sweep out of its bum.

[Jimera0]

Alright, just going to nip the damn Sand Veil arguments in the bud right now. Don't you people forget I got my Poster of the Month award partially for pointing out just how ridiculous a ban on that would be.

1/5 is not a huge chance. the vast majority of the the time, SV Gliscor just gets wasted before it can do anything, or Phazed out (and with no recovery on pretty much all SV sets, you can actually KO this Gliscor with SR damage). Defensive Pokemon wall it handily after you've taken the air gem boosted acrobatics (It's one shot then goes to being a fairly normal move remember). Anything with Ice Beam that can either outspeed or take a hit will OHKO it 80% of the time. Substitute just makes it die from residual damage faster too. Sure you CAN get terrible luck every now and again and have it miss like 4 times in a row, but you can get the same luck with missing Stone Edge, or Focus Blast, or crits, or defense drops, or any other of the gajillion things that hax in Pokemon. Sand Veil just gets singled out because it's not as common as those things are so we remember it more.

Not to mention it barely impacts the metagame at large at all. SV Gliscor is hardly ubiquitous. Sand Veil is used on all of 16% of Gliscors last month according to the lovely stats Antar has provided us with, and that amounts to a whopping 2% or so of teams using it. That's not even enough to stay OU people!

Sure, with a bit of momentum from hax it can ruin a team, but so can ANY goddamn Pokemon. How about if Haxorus crits your Skarmory and that's your only steel? How about if Alakazam scores a Sp. Def drop on your Blissey? Gliscor may get this type of hax more often, but it also needs MORE of it to be successful due to the fact that it has, y'know, two type coverage (assuming substitute) and 95 base attack. It's hardly unfair; we just get pissy whenever we get haxed out of a win, so naturally a Pokemon that wins by haxing is going to get us extra pissy.