[WIP] Flygon [Update]

***kokoloko**** · Mar 25th, 2012, 9:51:48 AM

Flygon

[Overview]

Flygon is widely regarded as the best Choice Scarf user in the tier due to Levitate granting it immunity to Spikes, resistance to Stealth Rock, and access to U-turn.
Its typing is fantastic, both offensively and defensively, as it gives Flygon plenty of immunities and resistances to come in a few times while providing it with what is arguably the most devastating STAB combination in the game (see: Garchomp).
Unfortunately, its Attack and Special Attack are decidedly average, and although it sometimes falls short of KOing some specific threats, Ground- and Dragon-type STAB moves are amazing even without the stats to back them up.
Despite these shortcomings, Flygon continues to shine as one of the best revenge killers and scouts in the entire game, and should always be kept in mind when building a team.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Outrage
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Stone Edge / Fire Blast
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

Flygon's trademark set and hands-down what he is best at: revenge killing and scouting.
What makes this set so effective is Flygon's unique perk of being a Levitating Ground-type, making it immune to virtually all forms of residual damage, bar Stealth Rock, which it resists anyway, and access to U-turn.
Flygon's typing is also a blessing offensively, as its STAB combination is only resisted by two commonly seen Pokemon: Skarmory and Bronzong.
Earthquake serves as this set's primary STAB for the main reason that it doesn't have Outrage's nasty side effect of forcing Flygon to stay in for a couple of turns. However, locking yourself into Earthquake can prove to be devastating, as dangerous Pokemon, such as Gyarados and Dragonite, can use the opportunity to set up.
Outrage can, however, prove to be absolutely devastating for your opponent once his Steel-types have been removed.
Luckily, Flygon has access to the move U-turn, which allows it to scout for these threats before taking the risk of locking itself into one of its STAB moves.
Stone Edge gives Flygon the opportunity to hurt Gyarados, Dragonite, and Zapdos without the need to lock itself into Outrage, while Fire Blast lets it do some damage to Skarmory and Bronzong, whom otherwise switch in for free.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

The given EV spread serves to maximize Flygon's revenge killing capabilities, with the remainder tossed into Special Defense to prevent the rare Download Porygon-Z from getting a beneficial boost as it switches in.
A Jolly nature is the primary pick here because it is necessary in order to outpace +2 Tyranitar, Metagross, Timid Empoleon, and Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and to at least tie with opposing Choice Scarf Flygon and Jirachi.
However, an Adamant is more than viable, as it not only provides Flygon with some much needed power, but it also gives it a better opportunity to get the slower U-turn in Choice Scarf Flygon mirror matches.
Another way of achieving this is by simply lowering the Speed EVs to 240, which will allow Flygon to still be faster than +2 Adamant Metagross, +2 Jolly Tyranitar and +2 Timid Empoleon, assuming a Jolly nature.
Keep in mind, however, that doing this will guarantee your loss if the match happens to be decided by whose Flygon gets to Outrage first, a situation which is somewhat likely to arise.
EV spread tweaks aside, Flygon can also run ThunderPunch in its fourth moveslot in order to revenge kill Gyarados much more reliably than it can with Stone Edge.
-------------
Teammates: Scizor, Skarmory, and Magnezone are the best, but this thing can fit pretty easily into almost any team.

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Roost / Outrage
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash / Naive
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

You can run 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with Naive to outpace Gliscor or even max Speed to beat Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and tie with other base 100s

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: U-turn / Roost
move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Screech can be used here with LO

[Other Options]

Choice Specs set is doable but really weak
Toxic stall set beats stuff like Vaporeon
Crunch for Rotom and Gengar without locking yourself into Outrage

[Checks and Counters]

***kokoloko**** · Mar 25th, 2012, 9:53:39 AM

Okay yeah I put up a bare skeleton with only a few reminders for myself so that we could move the discussion from the other thread to here.

I still think the Physical Attacker set should go before the Mixed set because its bettererer - I use CB Flygon a lot, js.

Tomahawk9 · Mar 25th, 2012, 12:00:34 PM

Okay, so slash Adamant before Jolly. 100 base Attack isn't too impressive anyways, and with a Jolly nature you're super weak. Also, you miss out on almost nothing, really only other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Roserade, Rain Dance Ludicolo, and Adamant AgiliGross. Metagross is usually Jolly, Scarf Roserade is rare out of the lead position, and Rain Dance Ludicolo is even rare. Also, KOing Nasty Plot Celebi with U-turn after Stealth Rock is kind of a big deal, and Jolly fails to do that, among other stuff.

Toxic is also a worth a mention in AC, being able to poison bulky Pokemon that like to switch in on Flygon considering non-super effective moves won't bother them. Hitting stuff like Vaporeon and Zapdos with Toxic can be really useful.

Slash Roost before Outrage, I would even go as far as deslashing it. Outrage doesn't really hit anything, and Roost + SS immunity / SR resist / (Toxic) Spikes immunity is one of the main reasons to use Mixed Flygon. A mention in AC should be fine. Also, mention Expert Belt U-turn as a lure in AC, can be effective. U-turn first time it comes in while they switch to their Flygon counter while no Leftovers or Life Orb or something out of the ordinary is revealed, and next time it comes in use the appropriate move and let something like DD Gyarados sweep much more easily. Also, if you're gonna go with a Naive nature, I would go all the way with 252 Spe, as this lets you outspeed Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and KO it with Fire Blast (after two Stealth Rock switchins or SR + 1 layer of Spikes), as this can be hard to handle for teams who have Scizor as their main Shaymin counter.

Deslash Adamant on the CB / LO set though, its 100 base Speed is one its best features, and not being able to speed tie with Jirachi, Shaymin, Celebi sucks. I would change the moveset to the following:

move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: U-turn / Roost
move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge

The Choice Band set really needs Fire Punch for stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong, Dragon Claw isn't even a worthy option there imo. Life Orb set probably wants Dragon Claw as its main STAB move, and Stone Edge in the last slot can nail stuff like Zapdos and Dragonite.

Also, Screech mention in AC seems good enough for me instead of a whole set, so that seems cool. Also mention in Other Options that there really isn't a reason to use Toxic Stall Flygon over Gliscor.

***kokoloko**** · Mar 25th, 2012, 12:20:00 PM

Adamant > Jolly on Scarf - yes I agree completely, I had a feeling others wouldn't though, that's why I kept it like it currently is. I was planning on mentioning Toxic already.

Roost > Outrage on Mixed - okay.

Physical Attacker changes - Adamant is staying slashed, the power is really useful and the speed is not always needed. Jolly is usually better, I agree, but Adamant is usable a large amount of the time. The move order you picked seems ok, I'll go with that.

reyscarface · Mar 27th, 2012, 12:12:18 AM

no no no, jolly > adamant every single time on scarf.

You bring up nasty plot celebi, but the speed tie with other flygon and jirachi is waaaay more a) common b) important.

you say you dont miss on many speed targets with adamant, but you dont miss the power by using jolly.

shrang · Mar 27th, 2012, 12:20:34 AM

Quote:

Okay, so slash Adamant before Jolly. 100 base Attack isn't too impressive anyways, and with a Jolly nature you're super weak. Also, you miss out on almost nothing, really only other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Roserade, Rain Dance Ludicolo, and Adamant AgiliGross. Metagross is usually Jolly, Scarf Roserade is rare out of the lead position, and Rain Dance Ludicolo is even rare. Also, KOing Nasty Plot Celebi with U-turn after Stealth Rock is kind of a big deal, and Jolly fails to do that, among other stuff.

AgiliGross never runs Jolly, what metagame are you talking about? Standard Metagross ran enough Speed to outspeed ScarfTran. Also, Jolly lets you outspeed Scarf Rotom-A as well. Being able to tie with other Flygons, ScarfRachi (Getting Iron Head flinched to death is fun, yes?) and Rotom-A alone is probably worth using Jolly over Adamant. It also outspeeds +2 DDTar.

whistle · Mar 27th, 2012, 12:52:53 AM

rotom-a is always slower than max speed base 100s regardless of nature.

food for thought

Tomahawk9 · Mar 27th, 2012, 6:59:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

AgiliGross never runs Jolly, what metagame are you talking about? Standard Metagross ran enough Speed to outspeed ScarfTran.

Okay, point taken, just because I run Jolly to outspeed all Scarf Flygon all others do. Though btw, the standard is 196 Spe, which lets you outspeed Scarf Rotom-A with an Adamant nature and Flygon when Jolly. Oh, and Jolly is in fact the main slash on the Agility set.

Quote:

Also, Jolly lets you outspeed Scarf Rotom-A as well.

No, that is not true.
Scarf Rotom-A: 447 Speed
Scarf Adamant Flygon: 448 Speed

Barely, but you still outspeed.

Quote:

Being able to tie with other Flygons, ScarfRachi (Getting Iron Head flinched to death is fun, yes?) and Rotom-A alone is probably worth using Jolly over Adamant.

Just saying, but the chance of being Iron Head flinched to death by Scarf Jirachi isn't that big of a difference. Assuming the following (which I know isn't completely true, but after SR it's the case most of the time, I don't wanna bother factoring 5% KO and 90% KO chances and stuff like that anyways, it's not that big of a difference):

- Jirachi 2HKOes Flygon with Iron Head
- Jolly Flygon 2HKOes Jirachi with Earthquake
- Adamant Flygon OHKOes Jirachi with Earthquake

So, Jolly Flygon must hit Jirachi twice to come out on top. This is done by not getting flinched turn 1 and winning the speedtie turn 2. So:

0.70 (1 - 0.50 * 0.60, chance of not getting flinched turn 1) * 0.50 (chance of winning the speed tie = 0.35 = 35% chance of winning.

Now, Adamant Flygon has to hit Jirachi once, but if it's flinched turn 1 it loses. So, it basically depends on whether or not Flygon gets flinched turn 1:

1 - 0.60 (chance of getting flinched turn 1) = 0.40 = 40% chance of winning.

Adamant Flygon actually is more likely to come out on top of Jirachi it seems. Though keep in mind that this is a little simplified, so the odds in fact shift slightly to Jolly's favor, but still you can see the difference is very insignificant.

To tie with other Jolly Flygon is not a reason to make Jolly the main nature, mostly speed creep but okay. Also, I personally like my Flygon to be slower than others, I know losing the speed tie guaranteed sucks if you end up with something like HECTOR vs M_Dragon in ST5, but mostly you'll be U-turning, and being slower means you get the momentum. If the other Flygon Outrages, you get one or two turn to set up or kill it.

Quote:

It also outspeeds +2 DDTar.

Not really that significant. Tyranitar will rarely ever get up to +2, especially when you have Flygon who should switch in to Tyranitar anyways. That, and I prefer being able to actually KO DDTar instead of outspeeding it after two Dragon Dances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat reyscarface

you say you dont miss on many speed targets with adamant, but you dont miss the power by using jolly.

Hm, what about I list the things where you miss speed, and the ones where you miss power to see the advantages/disadvantages of each nature.

You miss speed vs:
- Scarf Jirachi
- Other Scarf Flygon
- Adamant Agiligross
- Scarf Roserade
- Modest Rain Dance Ludicolo
- +2 DDTar
- Motor Drive Electivire
- unboosted Ninjask

You miss power vs:
- Shuca Berry Heatran
- Choice Band Scizor
- Offensive DD Gyarados
- 4 HP Rotom-A
- Outrage vs Infernape
- Life Orb Starmie
- Choice Scarf / Dragon Dance Tyranitar
- Bulky Dragonite without SR
- Breloom
- Any Jirachi:
- 4 HP Jirachi you miss out on OHKOing with Earthquake
- 252 HP you miss out on KOing after one Sub
- Defensive Wish CM you miss out on 2HKOing
- Blissey
- Offensive Zapdos
- Offensive Suicune
- Nasty Plot Celebi
- Shaymin
- Snorlax
- Togekiss without SR
- more stuff, these are the most important ones

whistle · Mar 27th, 2012, 5:30:17 PM

ummmm your logic is flawed for the basic reason that pokemon don't stay at 100% as a battle progresses... you're making the tradeoff very complicated when in fact it's simple. if you use adamant you no longer have a chance to revenge kill certain pokemon. if you use jolly you're less likely to set up a scarf flygon sweep late game. residual damage, or lack thereof, should roughly balance out between the two. I could write a nerd essay arguing against most of your points but since pokemon isn't played in a vacuum, the question of whether a 100% flygon vs 100% <whatever> comes out in favor of flygon is nearly irrelevant.

scarf flygon is usually used primarily as a revenge killer, and the nature should reflect that. however, adamant is a good option depending on your team and how you play it - as atticus points out, sometimes speed tying w/ other flygon isn't necessary, or maybe your team doesn't have spikes and you want the extra damage, etc.

***kokoloko**** · Mar 27th, 2012, 5:46:39 PM

This is why I originally had Jolly first, I figured it was "more standard," so yeah, I'll be going back to having it as the main slash now. Don't worry though, I'll be sure to thoroughly explain all the pros and cons of both natures, especially since I also prefer Adamant myself.

Bluewind · Mar 27th, 2012, 5:52:15 PM

Shuca TTar will easily get to +2 and if I'm not mistaken TTar's a Behemoth with ridiculously high defenses, which should mean Adamant EQ won't ko it. Making a list of Pokemon you can pick off with higher Attack makes no sense; I can say running Timid on Starmie helps me against Gengar, Nape and Starmie and hurts me against other 50 Pokemon; but it's just too important for Starmie to beat those 3.

I won't go into the merit of the whole Adamant / Jolly Flygon vs Jirachi because it's pretty likely he won't be at max HP, but as a reminder Ice Punch exists and beats Adamant Gon 100% of the time. Also you can add Timid Agility Empoleon to that list.

LucaroarkZ · Mar 27th, 2012, 6:17:25 PM

I really don't like using Scarf Flygon, but I say Jolly as the first nature just because Jirachi can learn Ice Punch, as Bluewind said, and thus Adamant Flygon has no chance of beating Jirachi. Even though Earthquake won't OHKO Jirachi at full health according to Tomohawk, it's also unlikely Jirachi will be at full health for the entire battle. If you really want more power, use Choice Band or something.

Tomahawk9 · Mar 28th, 2012, 2:18:34 AM

Actually I assumed SR for everything. But okay, since pretty much everyone disagrees, you can slash Jolly slot 1.

Also, Timid Empoleon doesn't really exist.

And the "if you want more power, use Choice Band" is kind of dumb to be honest. Jolly misses out on several KOes which Adamant doesn't, so if I wanted those KOes I should just run CB?

Bluewind · Mar 28th, 2012, 9:41:34 AM

The point was never that, you put calcs on Pokemon like Suicune and Scizor that obviously aren't OHKOed; and the whole point people were defending here was that extra 10% damage wasn't worth the risk of not outspeeding other threats in other cases; unless your team had that well covered. Also Timid Empoleon beats Scarf Rotom which is not only an extremely common scarfer, but also one of the few that doesn't need an specific move to beat it, like Jirachi needs Thunderpunch (Idk if he can KO SubPetaya with Fire Punch and there is Timid LO 3 attacks Empoleon).

Tomahawk9 · Mar 28th, 2012, 10:36:08 AM

I'm not saying they are OHKOed, but with Adamant you can 2HKO them while with Jolly you miss out on that. I just think that Jolly > Adamant covers very little: other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, and Adamant Agiligross is basically all it's good for, and I'd rather have that 10% extra power than try to speed tie vs Flygon / Jirachi and revenge one sweeper. But yeah, I think this discussion is over now.

george182 · Apr 12th, 2012, 9:12:08 PM

I'm wondering why you have slashed Outrage over Roost on the mix Flygon set. Flygon is not Salamence, it's outrage will not 2hko Blissey, while Roost is extremely valuable against stall to heal of life orb damage. However U-turn is also a good option in the last slot over roost, it's much better against offensive teams and is still very useful against stall. I just don't see the point in Outrage on this set apart from to get Flygon killed.

I also don't see why the physical life orb set has been grouped with the choice band set. From my experience they have completely different playstyles. The choice band set excels at bluffing a choice scarf and abusing this to rip holes in an opponents team, while the physical life orb sets main advantage comes through the use of Dragon Claw and Roost. The physical life orb set is the only Flygon set without a hit and run and style, it would be better with it's own description. However this sort of tank role is not something that Flygon is very good at anyway and it doesn't do enough initial damage making the surprise factor of not having a scarf quite weak and no where near as strong as when you use a choice band or a mix set. It also lacks the use of a move like taunt, so its useless against stall. Personally I think the set should just be removed from the site.

Mar 25th, 2012, 9:51:48 AM	#1
*kokoloko winter is coming Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,329	[WIP] Flygon [Update] Flygon [Overview] Flygon is widely regarded as the best Choice Scarf user in the tier due to Levitate granting it immunity to Spikes, resistance to Stealth Rock, and access to U-turn. Its typing is fantastic, both offensively and defensively, as it gives Flygon plenty of immunities and resistances to come in a few times while providing it with what is arguably the most devastating STAB combination in the game (see: Garchomp). Unfortunately, its Attack and Special Attack are decidedly average, and although it sometimes falls short of KOing some specific threats, Ground- and Dragon-type STAB moves are amazing even without the stats to back them up. Despite these shortcomings, Flygon continues to shine as one of the best revenge killers and scouts in the entire game, and should always be kept in mind when building a team. [SET] name: Choice Scarf move 1: Earthquake move 2: Outrage move 3: U-turn move 4: Stone Edge / Fire Blast item: Choice Scarf nature: Jolly / Adamant evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe [SET COMMENTS] Flygon's trademark set and hands-down what he is best at: revenge killing and scouting. What makes this set so effective is Flygon's unique perk of being a Levitating Ground-type, making it immune to virtually all forms of residual damage, bar Stealth Rock, which it resists anyway, and access to U-turn. Flygon's typing is also a blessing offensively, as its STAB combination is only resisted by two commonly seen Pokemon: Skarmory and Bronzong. Earthquake serves as this set's primary STAB for the main reason that it doesn't have Outrage's nasty side effect of forcing Flygon to stay in for a couple of turns. However, locking yourself into Earthquake can prove to be devastating, as dangerous Pokemon, such as Gyarados and Dragonite, can use the opportunity to set up. Outrage can, however, prove to be absolutely devastating for your opponent once his Steel-types have been removed. Luckily, Flygon has access to the move U-turn, which allows it to scout for these threats before taking the risk of locking itself into one of its STAB moves. Stone Edge gives Flygon the opportunity to hurt Gyarados, Dragonite, and Zapdos without the need to lock itself into Outrage, while Fire Blast lets it do some damage to Skarmory and Bronzong, whom otherwise switch in for free. [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] The given EV spread serves to maximize Flygon's revenge killing capabilities, with the remainder tossed into Special Defense to prevent the rare Download Porygon-Z from getting a beneficial boost as it switches in. A Jolly nature is the primary pick here because it is necessary in order to outpace +2 Tyranitar, Metagross, Timid Empoleon, and Timid Choice Scarf Roserade, and to at least tie with opposing Choice Scarf Flygon and Jirachi. However, an Adamant is more than viable, as it not only provides Flygon with some much needed power, but it also gives it a better opportunity to get the slower U-turn in Choice Scarf Flygon mirror matches. Another way of achieving this is by simply lowering the Speed EVs to 240, which will allow Flygon to still be faster than +2 Adamant Metagross, +2 Jolly Tyranitar and +2 Timid Empoleon, assuming a Jolly nature. Keep in mind, however, that doing this will guarantee your loss if the match happens to be decided by whose Flygon gets to Outrage first, a situation which is somewhat likely to arise. EV spread tweaks aside, Flygon can also run ThunderPunch in its fourth moveslot in order to revenge kill Gyarados much more reliably than it can with Stone Edge. ------------- Teammates: Scizor, Skarmory, and Magnezone are the best, but this thing can fit pretty easily into almost any team. [SET] name: Mixed Attacker move 1: Draco Meteor move 2: Earthquake move 3: Fire Blast move 4: Roost / Outrage item: Life Orb nature: Rash / Naive evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe [SET COMMENTS] [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] You can run 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with Naive to outpace Gliscor or even max Speed to beat Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and tie with other base 100s [SET] name: Physical Attacker move 1: Earthquake move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw move 3: U-turn / Roost move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge item: Choice Band / Life Orb nature: Jolly / Adamant evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe [SET COMMENTS] [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] Screech can be used here with LO [Other Options] Choice Specs set is doable but really weak Toxic stall set beats stuff like Vaporeon Crunch for Rotom and Gengar without locking yourself into Outrage [Checks and Counters] __________________ Last edited by kokoloko; Apr 8th, 2012 at 11:28:07 AM.

Mar 25th, 2012, 9:53:39 AM	#2
*kokoloko winter is coming Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,329	Okay yeah I put up a bare skeleton with only a few reminders for myself so that we could move the discussion from the other thread to here. I still think the Physical Attacker set should go before the Mixed set because its bettererer - I use CB Flygon a lot, js. __________________

Mar 25th, 2012, 12:00:34 PM	#3
Tomahawk9 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,439	Okay, so slash Adamant before Jolly. 100 base Attack isn't too impressive anyways, and with a Jolly nature you're super weak. Also, you miss out on almost nothing, really only other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Roserade, Rain Dance Ludicolo, and Adamant AgiliGross. Metagross is usually Jolly, Scarf Roserade is rare out of the lead position, and Rain Dance Ludicolo is even rare. Also, KOing Nasty Plot Celebi with U-turn after Stealth Rock is kind of a big deal, and Jolly fails to do that, among other stuff. Toxic is also a worth a mention in AC, being able to poison bulky Pokemon that like to switch in on Flygon considering non-super effective moves won't bother them. Hitting stuff like Vaporeon and Zapdos with Toxic can be really useful. Slash Roost before Outrage, I would even go as far as deslashing it. Outrage doesn't really hit anything, and Roost + SS immunity / SR resist / (Toxic) Spikes immunity is one of the main reasons to use Mixed Flygon. A mention in AC should be fine. Also, mention Expert Belt U-turn as a lure in AC, can be effective. U-turn first time it comes in while they switch to their Flygon counter while no Leftovers or Life Orb or something out of the ordinary is revealed, and next time it comes in use the appropriate move and let something like DD Gyarados sweep much more easily. Also, if you're gonna go with a Naive nature, I would go all the way with 252 Spe, as this lets you outspeed Hidden Power Fire Shaymin and KO it with Fire Blast (after two Stealth Rock switchins or SR + 1 layer of Spikes), as this can be hard to handle for teams who have Scizor as their main Shaymin counter. Deslash Adamant on the CB / LO set though, its 100 base Speed is one its best features, and not being able to speed tie with Jirachi, Shaymin, Celebi sucks. I would change the moveset to the following: move 1: Earthquake move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw move 3: U-turn / Roost move 4: Fire Punch / Stone Edge The Choice Band set really needs Fire Punch for stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong, Dragon Claw isn't even a worthy option there imo. Life Orb set probably wants Dragon Claw as its main STAB move, and Stone Edge in the last slot can nail stuff like Zapdos and Dragonite. Also, Screech mention in AC seems good enough for me instead of a whole set, so that seems cool. Also mention in Other Options that there really isn't a reason to use Toxic Stall Flygon over Gliscor. __________________ C&C Work \| Smog Work

Mar 25th, 2012, 12:20:00 PM	#4
*kokoloko winter is coming Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,329	Adamant > Jolly on Scarf - yes I agree completely, I had a feeling others wouldn't though, that's why I kept it like it currently is. I was planning on mentioning Toxic already. Roost > Outrage on Mixed - okay. Physical Attacker changes - Adamant is staying slashed, the power is really useful and the speed is not always needed. Jolly is usually better, I agree, but Adamant is usable a large amount of the time. The move order you picked seems ok, I'll go with that. __________________

Mar 27th, 2012, 12:52:53 AM	#7
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,605 Location: Chicago	rotom-a is always slower than max speed base 100s regardless of nature. food for thought 04:09:56: <[sky]Whisler> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464158 04:09:57: <PKGaming> 8t 04:10:03: <[sky]Whisler> does anyone use adamant scarf flygon 04:10:08: <[sky]Whisler> i thought it was jolly or no point... 04:10:39: <[sky]conic> should be jolly 04:10:43: <[sky]conic> but adamant is definitely an option 04:10:46: <[sky]conic> if you have skarmory or something 04:10:55: <[sky]conic> i cant tell you how many games ive lost 04:11:04: <[sky]conic> because i got a low damage roll on outrage or something 04:11:04: <NEGRES> lol 04:11:06: <NEGRES> this made me laugh 04:11:07: <NEGRES> (07:37:18) AJC: i am fucking going to japan and freaking finish off what that tsunami couldn't 04:11:11: <andrew> xD 04:11:13: <[sky]conic> ROFL 04:11:17: <andrew> poor iconic 04:11:20: <andrew> ;/ 04:11:24: <[sky]conic> ugh yeah snype 04:11:27: <[sky]conic> my flygon was a fucking pussy 04:11:31: <andrew> i calc'd it earlier 04:11:37: <andrew> since a similar situation happened 04:11:39: <andrew> and apparently 04:11:43: <andrew> you don't KO infernape without any hazards 04:11:46: <andrew> with outrage 04:11:49: <[sky]Whisler> ya 04:11:49: <NEGRES> adamant is good whistle 04:11:53: <[sky]conic> i remember calcing it 04:11:54: <NEGRES> if you have lots of flygon checks/counters 04:11:59: <[sky]conic> i got a 50/50 roll pretty much 04:12:01: <NEGRES> flygon hits like a bitch 04:12:03: <[sky]conic> since ape was at like 78 04:12:09: <NEGRES> i remember playing some faggot thinking i had it sealed 04:12:09: <[sky]Whisler> Ok 04:12:12: <NEGRES> outrage did 96% to dnite 04:12:15: <[sky]Whisler> LOL 04:12:17: <NEGRES> i was irate 04:12:35: <PKGaming> LOL 04:12:49: <[sky]Whisler> how come 04:12:52: <[sky]Whisler> i never spoke to franky 04:12:54: <[sky]Whisler> thats so weird 04:12:57: <ReyScarface> adamant is shit 04:13:02: <ReyScarface> jolly is 04:13:03: <ReyScarface> the only nature 04:13:04: <[sky]Whisler> you should all post in that thread :) 04:13:06: <ReyScarface> for scarf flygon 04:13:10: <[sky]conic> 88.6% - 104.7% 04:13:12: <[sky]Whisler> or i can just copy paste 04:13:12: <[sky]conic> that's outrage 04:13:13: <[sky]Whisler> i guess __________________ <&Gouki> whistles sig is the best thing on smogon (slightly updated 3/13/13)

Mar 27th, 2012, 12:12:18 AM	#5
reyscarface Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,019	no no no, jolly > adamant every single time on scarf. You bring up nasty plot celebi, but the speed tie with other flygon and jirachi is waaaay more a) common b) important. you say you dont miss on many speed targets with adamant, but you dont miss the power by using jolly.

Mar 27th, 2012, 5:30:17 PM	#9
whistle Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,605 Location: Chicago	ummmm your logic is flawed for the basic reason that pokemon don't stay at 100% as a battle progresses... you're making the tradeoff very complicated when in fact it's simple. if you use adamant you no longer have a chance to revenge kill certain pokemon. if you use jolly you're less likely to set up a scarf flygon sweep late game. residual damage, or lack thereof, should roughly balance out between the two. I could write a nerd essay arguing against most of your points but since pokemon isn't played in a vacuum, the question of whether a 100% flygon vs 100% <whatever> comes out in favor of flygon is nearly irrelevant. scarf flygon is usually used primarily as a revenge killer, and the nature should reflect that. however, adamant is a good option depending on your team and how you play it - as atticus points out, sometimes speed tying w/ other flygon isn't necessary, or maybe your team doesn't have spikes and you want the extra damage, etc. __________________ <&Gouki> whistles sig is the best thing on smogon (slightly updated 3/13/13)

Mar 27th, 2012, 5:46:39 PM	#10
*kokoloko winter is coming Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,329	This is why I originally had Jolly first, I figured it was "more standard," so yeah, I'll be going back to having it as the main slash now. Don't worry though, I'll be sure to thoroughly explain all the pros and cons of both natures, especially since I also prefer Adamant myself. __________________

Mar 27th, 2012, 5:52:15 PM	#11
Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fear into the hearts of any sane battler and my thorny vines drop the opposing forces just an iron ball plowing into a man's genitals. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,302 Bloo's fancy mansion	Shuca TTar will easily get to +2 and if I'm not mistaken TTar's a Behemoth with ridiculously high defenses, which should mean Adamant EQ won't ko it. Making a list of Pokemon you can pick off with higher Attack makes no sense; I can say running Timid on Starmie helps me against Gengar, Nape and Starmie and hurts me against other 50 Pokemon; but it's just too important for Starmie to beat those 3. I won't go into the merit of the whole Adamant / Jolly Flygon vs Jirachi because it's pretty likely he won't be at max HP, but as a reminder Ice Punch exists and beats Adamant Gon 100% of the time. Also you can add Timid Agility Empoleon to that list. __________________

Mar 27th, 2012, 6:17:25 PM	#12
LucaroarkZ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,116 San Diego, CA	I really don't like using Scarf Flygon, but I say Jolly as the first nature just because Jirachi can learn Ice Punch, as Bluewind said, and thus Adamant Flygon has no chance of beating Jirachi. Even though Earthquake won't OHKO Jirachi at full health according to Tomohawk, it's also unlikely Jirachi will be at full health for the entire battle. If you really want more power, use Choice Band or something. __________________ "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman I am not lucaroark on Pokemon Showdown. I'm always on PS as Adamant Zoroark.

Mar 28th, 2012, 2:18:34 AM	#13
Tomahawk9 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,439	Actually I assumed SR for everything. But okay, since pretty much everyone disagrees, you can slash Jolly slot 1. Also, Timid Empoleon doesn't really exist. And the "if you want more power, use Choice Band" is kind of dumb to be honest. Jolly misses out on several KOes which Adamant doesn't, so if I wanted those KOes I should just run CB? __________________ C&C Work \| Smog Work

Mar 28th, 2012, 9:41:34 AM	#14
Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fear into the hearts of any sane battler and my thorny vines drop the opposing forces just an iron ball plowing into a man's genitals. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,302 Bloo's fancy mansion	The point was never that, you put calcs on Pokemon like Suicune and Scizor that obviously aren't OHKOed; and the whole point people were defending here was that extra 10% damage wasn't worth the risk of not outspeeding other threats in other cases; unless your team had that well covered. Also Timid Empoleon beats Scarf Rotom which is not only an extremely common scarfer, but also one of the few that doesn't need an specific move to beat it, like Jirachi needs Thunderpunch (Idk if he can KO SubPetaya with Fire Punch and there is Timid LO 3 attacks Empoleon). __________________ Last edited by Bluewind; Mar 28th, 2012 at 10:12:10 AM.

Mar 28th, 2012, 10:36:08 AM	#15
Tomahawk9 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,439	I'm not saying they are OHKOed, but with Adamant you can 2HKO them while with Jolly you miss out on that. I just think that Jolly > Adamant covers very little: other Flygon, Scarf Jirachi, and Adamant Agiligross is basically all it's good for, and I'd rather have that 10% extra power than try to speed tie vs Flygon / Jirachi and revenge one sweeper. But yeah, I think this discussion is over now. __________________ C&C Work \| Smog Work

Apr 12th, 2012, 9:12:08 PM	#16
george182 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 425 England	I'm wondering why you have slashed Outrage over Roost on the mix Flygon set. Flygon is not Salamence, it's outrage will not 2hko Blissey, while Roost is extremely valuable against stall to heal of life orb damage. However U-turn is also a good option in the last slot over roost, it's much better against offensive teams and is still very useful against stall. I just don't see the point in Outrage on this set apart from to get Flygon killed. I also don't see why the physical life orb set has been grouped with the choice band set. From my experience they have completely different playstyles. The choice band set excels at bluffing a choice scarf and abusing this to rip holes in an opponents team, while the physical life orb sets main advantage comes through the use of Dragon Claw and Roost. The physical life orb set is the only Flygon set without a hit and run and style, it would be better with it's own description. However this sort of tank role is not something that Flygon is very good at anyway and it doesn't do enough initial damage making the surprise factor of not having a scarf quite weak and no where near as strong as when you use a choice band or a mix set. It also lacks the use of a move like taunt, so its useless against stall. Personally I think the set should just be removed from the site. __________________ "Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement." Last edited by george182; Apr 17th, 2012 at 10:31:49 PM.