Smogon University PO Statistics — March 2012

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Alright, just going to nip the damn Sand Veil arguments in the bud right now. Don't you people forget I got my Poster of the Month award partially for pointing out just how ridiculous a ban on that would be.

Oh watch out, he's such a badass.

[yondie]

poster of the motherfucking month

edit: dnite will be #1 next month i predict it

[ace combat]

Isn't it funny that sand veil is on 49.8 percent of Gliscors in the 1337 statistics and Gliscor is on over 15.9 percent of teams, so it is on 7.95 percent of teams, but it clearly isn't broken right? I mean you have a 5% increase in useage from regular useage to 1337 usage.

[UltiMario]

Originally Posted by Fat ace combat

Isn't it funny that sand veil is on 49.8 percent of Gliscors in the 1337 statistics and Gliscor is on over 15.9 percent of teams, so it is on 7.95 percent of teams, but it clearly isn't broken right? I mean you have a 5% increase in useage from regular useage to 1337 usage.

Hoping there's double sarcasm in here, because 7.95% isn't a lot lol

[Sun Sol]

Couldn't we just ban Sand Veil once all the Pokemon who can "only have Sand Veil" get their DW baility released (I believe only Sandslash is left)? To be honest, it is just as "bad" as the other evasion moves, except that there are some Pokemon who previously only had Sand Veil as their ability that made banning ti a bad idea. Hell, considering no one cares about Sandslash, it probably wouldn't be that bad now.

[pharaohcalvin]

Why ban something that is not broken?.............Why should pokemon lose move pool options over something not broken?

[SJCrew]

Sub SD Gliscor is every bit comparable to Garchomp in terms of what it can set up on, its counters, and the number checks that disappear when the have to worry about it being under a Sub at +2 and missing. The fact that people are using this strategy to such great success on the ladder just sickens me. Regardless of what you say, facing similar garbage like this and losing a key Pokemon to a dice roll that you could not avoid is the exact opposite of fun, healthy, and competitive.

[Scarfwynaut]

I guess I am just too terrible, because I have never lost a game this generation due to sand veil abuse from Gliscor.

[Arcticblast]

@SJCrew: The exact same thing can be said about critical hits, paralysis, confusion, etc.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

@SJCrew: The exact same thing can be said about critical hits, paralysis, confusion, etc.

They aren't really the same. To paralyze or confuse, certain moves must be used. And there are legit counters, such as type immunity, switching out of confusion, heal bell, rest, occasionally lum berry (no miss moves are not legit counters). If all else fails, you can bring the paralyzed pokemon out to avoid further hax. But sand veil is passive, its always in effect, and you can't remove yourself from the situation by a simple switch. Even a phazing move has a chance to miss, and your opponent can always bring the abuser back later. I'd also like to say that there is no current problem with critical hit abuse, and normal critical hits are not a choice of the player like using sand veil is. I am by no mean the most articulate endorser of this point. There are much more convincing versions of this argument, but the point remains that sand veil is not exactly equivalent to other hax.

[SJCrew]

We don't have prominent examples of Pokemon being banned primarily for critical hits, paralysis, or confusion, but we definitely threw the book at the forerunners for Evasion abuse. Really, I don't understand why people bother making that silly leap in logic when there are ways to heal status effects, but not ways to heal an 80% chance to miss all of my normally accurate moves.

[Taylor]

You can excuse critical hits as it evens out those lesser-used pokemon, as much as it makes Draco Meteors/Outrages/Close Combats/Hydro Pumps seem impossible to withstand; remember RBY the ratio was much higher, and attacks such as Slash would crit. every turn. 6.65% is managable and fair to even things out in terms of strength.

A critical hit from Gliscor after just one Swords Dance will make one your pokemon faint "just like that". It's not difficult to use something such as Trick to lock your opponent into one attacking move, and bring in Gliscor when you can Substitute freely. You have to take each battle as it comes, and I feel this meme was strongly felt during Garchomp during 4th Gen.

Paralysis and confusion are moves which usually don't come with powerful moves outside of Hurricane and Thunder, though in reality a potential sweep is not on the cards just because they're confused/paralyzed. In Gliscor's case, you're at the mercy of it behind Substitute if you don't have Skarmory.

Anyway, it seems I have more success evading Terrakion Stone Edges using Sand Veil, more than I ever would using Poison Heal and whitnessing Terrakion Stone Edge me to death because chances are Earthquake won't OHKO and they may have Rock Gem/Air Balloon w/ Substitute.

[pharaohcalvin]

It is kinda annoying when people go on about no way to counter Sand Veil, you could change the weather, that you know removes this passive effect that always is magically in play. I disagree with this whole ban this thing because it is competitive, ban something for being broken and the number have been shown before, it is not broken. But after this post I am just going to shut up before this whole thing goes into the cycle that it did in the mega thread before.

[Pwnemon]

hey guys can we /not/ turn this into the sand veil discussion thread because i'm pretty sure that didn't turn out well and just ended in bitching and hurt feelings

kthx

[Luigi player]

Why do people only care about SV? Because it's a bit more common than snow cloak? That thing is just as stupid. It's just really annoying not to hit with 100 % accurate moves. :/

More often then not you're pretty much screwed if you need your counter to that Pokemon to even break a sub in the first place (or you just miss). It is always so match-deciding in my battles to miss because of those abilities. >_<

Mamoswine and Gliscor are so threatening with these abilities. I wish Garchomp would be OU again since it's not really too different from these in my opinion (and the metagame has more fast Pokemon too since DPP and very many Pokemon already have ice type moves for the already threatening Dragons so it doesn't seem to me he'd be overpowered).

Miss-stuff is just really stupid in itself.
And it is different from crits, since if you're faster you can still hit your opponent... but to miss with 100% acc moves? There's just nothing you can do except pray. It won't always be happening, but when it does it is really broken.

[Scorpio]

Actually, Garchomp is pretty different from those two since A) Sand is a lot more common than Hail and B) Gliscor is mostly a defensive Pokemon while Garchomp is more offensive. Garchomp is also really powerful even without Sand Veil; SV makes it too powerful to contend with in the normal OU metagame. If you want OU Garchomp, play Dream World.

[UltiMario]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Sub SD Gliscor is every bit comparable to Garchomp in terms of what it can set up on, its counters, and the number checks that disappear when the have to worry about it being under a Sub at +2 and missing. The fact that people are using this strategy to such great success on the ladder just sickens me. Regardless of what you say, facing similar garbage like this and losing a key Pokemon to a dice roll that you could not avoid is the exact opposite of fun, healthy, and competitive.

I know Acrobatics makes a world of Difference, but then why is it healthy in Gen IV? Sub/SD/EQ/SE still, while not quite as good, has all the issues that "sicken" you due to Sand Veil.

So why is it only Gen V, the Generation with many, many more checks and counters to Sand Veil mons (mainly in the form of competing weather), that Sand Veil is now a "sickening" ability? What is this double standard? Why don't we go back and Ban Sand Veil in Gen IV as well, seeing nothing has changed between the two generations in how it can be abused?

[Scarfwynaut]

From personal experience, (I am not sure if the stats back me) I saw MORE sand veil abuse in gen 4 with the popularity of baton pass gliscor, then gen 5. I was also much worse then too.

I guess it can be argued that those were inferior players then, and now we have more serious players using it, making the 2 situations seperate. But then again few people are over 1377, lets be real now.

[jonathanrp]

the one thing that's better about Sand veil abuse this gen that makes it less irksome is that Brightpower is banned. But yeah, losing a battle you should win because of a Sand Veil miss is pure bullshit imo. You can change the weather, sure, but in the lower tiers where sand is the only permanent weather, that's not quite as easy. OU is less of an issue, but Sand Veil abuse is still present.

[EBeast]

Yes Yes,: Altaria Moveset in NU: | Item | 14.2 | Choice Specs
SpecsTaria Master Race! :D

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat UltiMario

I know Acrobatics makes a world of Difference, but then why is it healthy in Gen IV? Sub/SD/EQ/SE still, while not quite as good, has all the issues that "sicken" you due to Sand Veil.

So why is it only Gen V, the Generation with many, many more checks and counters to Sand Veil mons (mainly in the form of competing weather), that Sand Veil is now a "sickening" ability? What is this double standard? Why don't we go back and Ban Sand Veil in Gen IV as well, seeing nothing has changed between the two generations in how it can be abused?

I'm not getting into this debate (at least not now, I guess), but one can tell a "bs hax" in BW is much worse than in DPPt simply because teams have to be airtight nowadays. "Bs hax" is almost unbearable this generation, and Gliscor being an asshole really doesn't help anyone.

I find it silly to even suggest, if need be, banning/restricting those abilities using the Evasion Clause though, exactly because they never mattered before BW, except for maybe Garchomp being a dick, and Evasion Clause goes all the way back to RBY.

[shrang]

Okay what the hell is this nonsense o_0

Blissey's EV spreads:

| EVs | 48.5 | 252 HP / 252 Def |
| EVs | 17.5 | 252 HP / 252 SpD |

We have ridiculously powerful special attackers in the tier and you're telling me that you're not running SpD EVs? I can excuse Chansey for running such a set because she gets +1 SpD, but not Blissey. If you want to see your Blissey get 2HKOed by Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump go right ahead. 252 HP / 252 SpD is even more ridiculous, since Blissey would have no physical bulk whatsoever and you're nearly OHKOed by Tyranitar's Pursuit IIRC.

[The QWAZ]

Sand viel should not be banned because with gliscor one miss doesn't mean it will sweep you're team it is not as powerful or as fast a chomp, even at 2 it struggles to break through physical walls it cant even use toxic to break through skarm, hell as shown in one thread at +2 gliscor and 2ko an air balloon magikarp

[Razza]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Alright, just going to nip the damn Sand Veil arguments in the bud right now. Don't you people forget I got my Poster of the Month award partially for pointing out just how ridiculous a ban on that would be.

1/5 is not a huge chance. the vast majority of the the time, SV Gliscor just gets wasted before it can do anything, or Phazed out (and with no recovery on pretty much all SV sets, you can actually KO this Gliscor with SR damage). Defensive Pokemon wall it handily after you've taken the air gem boosted acrobatics (It's one shot then goes to being a fairly normal move remember). Anything with Ice Beam that can either outspeed or take a hit will OHKO it 80% of the time. Substitute just makes it die from residual damage faster too. Sure you CAN get terrible luck every now and again and have it miss like 4 times in a row, but you can get the same luck with missing Stone Edge, or Focus Blast, or crits, or defense drops, or any other of the gajillion things that hax in Pokemon. Sand Veil just gets singled out because it's not as common as those things are so we remember it more.

Not to mention it barely impacts the metagame at large at all. SV Gliscor is hardly ubiquitous. Sand Veil is used on all of 16% of Gliscors last month according to the lovely stats Antar has provided us with, and that amounts to a whopping 2% or so of teams using it. That's not even enough to stay OU people!

Sure, with a bit of momentum from hax it can ruin a team, but so can ANY goddamn Pokemon. How about if Haxorus crits your Skarmory and that's your only steel? How about if Alakazam scores a Sp. Def drop on your Blissey? Gliscor may get this type of hax more often, but it also needs MORE of it to be successful due to the fact that it has, y'know, two type coverage (assuming substitute) and 95 base attack. It's hardly unfair; we just get pissy whenever we get haxed out of a win, so naturally a Pokemon that wins by haxing is going to get us extra pissy.

lol

thats barely even an argument, basically what you say is only a few games get ruined because of sand veil, and to quit whining about the hax

1/5 is a huge chance actually, when you consider that every move now has the accuracy of stone edge (and no one ever loses games because of that move..) and the fact that sand veil gliscor is an offensive sweeper that can do huge damage if given a free turn. All it takes is one untimely miss and its game over. Not to mention that missing 100% accuracy moves due to a PASSIVE ability that doesnt require any setup is just plain disgusting. Also using "weather" to counter sand veil is a poor argument as switching in your weather inducer requires a turn, just what that gliscor was looking for when it was subbing. I sincerely hope someone reopens the gliscor suspect discussion whether for all users or just for tiering leaders because gliscor brings an unhealthy and uncompetetive aspect of luck into the metagame.

[Jimera0]

My god I thought we had settled this. I'm guessing most of you didn't read my arguments in the actual official thread for this... Seriously, if you are serious about this, look up the thread in the topic and read my arguments. Those took me hours to write out so I'm not going to repeat them here, but seriously... this is an issue to people?

Let me compare it to something that's VERY comparable; DD Gyarados using Waterfall. A 20% chance of a flinch... and if that flinch is on your counter, you lose. And yet, I have not ONCE heard anyone complain about that. And I've honestly had that happen several times more to me than SV hax. I'm not saying it should be banned (not even remotely), I'm saying there are similar versions of hax out there and we usually just, y'know, live with it. It's Pokemon. And believe it or not, it's Smogon policy that we should not go to extreme lengths to remove luck elements from the game. Look it up, it's in the CODM!

Now, I'm getting out of this argument. I've made my case before, and I'm 90% certain I won that case (or we'd have a ban by now). Bitch and complain all you want, but you're going to have to live with it.