Forretress (Done) [Approval 2/2] [GP Check 2/2]

Approval and GP checks are complete! This analysis is done and ready for upload. [Approval Check 2/2] [GP Checks 2/2]

[Overview]

<p>What's in a name? A lot if you're talking about Forretress. As the name suggests, Forretress is quite defensive. Great base 140 Defense, base 75 HP, nine useful resistances, an immunity to Toxic, and only one weakness make Forretress one tough nut to crack. However, if these were all Forretress had to offer, it's doubtful it would have ever seen much usage in OU, as its lack of a phazing move would have relegated it as a lesser Skarmory or Steelix. However, this isn't the case for one very important reason: Forretress has access to Spikes. In a metagame full of powerful phazers and stall teams that switch often to gain the upper hand, keeping Spikes on the field is incredibly useful. The good news for Forretress is that it is one of only two viable Spikes users in OU, the other being Cloyster. The differences between the two are important. Compared to Cloyster, Forretress has far more resistances and STAB Hidden Power Bug to scare off the most common Rapid Spin user in OU—Starmie. Forretress, unlike Cloyster, can also use Explosion, Spikes, and Rapid Spin at the same time. Forretress is a wonderful fit on any team that centers around laying Spikes and keeping them on the field.</p>

[SET]
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Hidden Power Bug
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Toxic / Explosion
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set has one major goal: get Spikes down and keep them there. Forretress will have plenty of opportunities to switch in and set up entry hazards thanks to its myriad of resistances and great Defense stat. The move options are fairly simple and can be tailored to fit an individual team's needs. The first moveslot is dedicated to Spikes, which should be Forretress's first priority upon switching in. Once Spikes are down, Forretress has several options to choose from while supporting its team. Hidden Power Bug is a great option because it will threaten Starmie, the most common spinner in OU, with a 2HKO. This kind of pressure makes the opponent hard-pressed to bring in their spinner, allowing for more opportunities to rack up Spikes damage. The last two moveslots allow Forretress the flexibility to play slightly different support roles. With Rapid Spin, Forretress can transition from Spikes user to Spikes remover. While Forretress surely isn't the best spinner available, it can still support its team by removing Spikes once the opponent's Spikes user has been KOed. Toxic is useful in the last slot to nail Cloyster switch-ins and is a great option against Misdreavus looking to block Rapid Spin. At the very least, it will force opponents to use Rest or Heal Bell sooner than they would have liked. Explosion is a more offensive option that allows Forretress to make good use of its base 90 Attack. Forretress's Explosion is slow but useful in emergency situations against Snorlax, Vaporeon, or Marowak, all of which can easily set up on Forretress while it uses Spikes. However, mispredicting an Explosion can be extremely detrimental as Forretress is usually the only Spikes user on its team. Losing it can give the opponent an important advantage in laying and removing Spikes. Forretress's Explosion is not nearly as dangerous as Cloyster's and should be used with good judgment or when completely necessary. It should also be noted that Forretress can use that fourth slot to run a set with Explosion, Rapid Spin, and Spikes, a move combination that Cloyster cannot use.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>This set might seem similar to the one Cloyster runs, but it plays very differently. Forretress is more defensive than Cloyster and often focuses on retaining Spikes in the long run. Forretress works well on teams centered around taking advantage of Spikes in a stall-heavy metagame. One great teammate is Misdreavus, which can wall Rapid Spin and Explosion while threatening opponents with a Perish Song + Mean Look combo. Phazers such as Raikou, Skarmory, and Suicune pair wonderfully with Spikes support. Skarmory offers not only Whirlwind support, but also the ability to check Snorlax that try and set up on Forretress. Raikou has complementary Special Defense and the added benefit a STAB Thunder to threaten opposing users of Rapid Spin and Spikes, such as Starmie and Cloyster. Zapdos really enjoys the extra damage Spikes can provide against Snorlax and its many grounded counters, such as Raikou and Quagsire. Pursuit support from a Pokemon such as Tyranitar or Houndoom will remove or seriously damage any Misdreavus or Gengar switch-ins looking to block Rapid Spin.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Beyond the moves listed above, Forretress has a few other usable options. It can use Reflect over Toxic to boost its Defense to nearly impenetrable levels. Reflect will also benefit Forretress's team if it switches out after setting up Spikes or using Rapid Spin. A set with Curse and Rest is usable as it allows Forretress to stall out opposing physical attackers, most notably Heracross and Snorlax. Reflect can be used over Curse if team support is more valuable than the Attack boost or ability to boost long-term with Curse. The main problems with Curse + Rest are that it doesn't do much to help Forretress maintain Spikes and it doesn't effectively stall out many top threats. Protect is a strange but viable option to allow Forretress to scout for random Fire-type moves from opponents such as Snorlax and Exeggutor while also gaining Leftovers recovery and an extra turn of Toxic damage. Protect is also useful for blocking Rapid Spin and the occasional Surf from Cloyster during entry hazard wars. Forretress can also chose to run either Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Ghost. Hidden Power Fire might sound gimmicky considering Forretress's low Special Attack, but the ability to 2HKO opposing Forretress can be invaluable to your team. Hidden Power Ghost is a way to take Misdreavus and Gengar by surprise if they try and block Rapid Spin or Explosion.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Countering Spikes is the easiest way to counter Forretress. Having a handy spinner such as Cloyster or even your own Forretress is the easiest way to prevent an opposing Forretress from doing its job effectively. Cloyster is especially notable as a check because it can 3HKO Forretress with Surf. Cloyster can also use Spikes, forcing the opposing Forretress into an entry hazard war that it will struggle to win. Without Hidden Power Fire, Forretress can do nothing to opposing Forretress. Using a Forretress of your own can force an entry hazard war where the opponent will be forced to accept Spikes on their side of the field if they chose to switch. Gengar is a perfect counter to the standard Forretress set because of its immunity to Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Explosion, resistance to Hidden Power Bug, and access to high-powered special attacks. A combination of Forretress and Gengar will neuter opposing Forretress and keep Spikes off your side of the field. Misdreavus is another good Forretress check; it can block both Rapid Spin and Explosion and threaten Forretress with Perish Song and Mean Look. The threat of Fire Blast from Belly Drum Charizard will force Forretress to switch, giving Charizard a free turn to set up. Boosting sweepers in general are a pain for Forretress. Growth Vaporeon and Curse or Belly Drum Snorlax can both easily set up on Forretress as it tries to lay Spikes. Snorlax in particular can nail Forretress with a surprise Fire Blast, giving its team a free KO and a chance to keep their Spikes on the field. Exeggutor can also net a surprise KO with Hidden Power Fire on Forretress that stay in hoping to land a 4x super effective Hidden Power Bug. Zapdos, with its high Special Attack and ability to shrug off both Toxic and Hidden Power Bug, will make a good counter to any Forretress without Explosion.</p>

As you're getting started,

There's 2 Forretress sets. Set 1 is the pure Spikes gamer: Spikes/Hidden Power Bug/Rapid Spin/Toxic, with Explosion or Reflect being usable over Toxic or Rapid Spin. The "main" version of this set is pretty debatable; most notably, some might vouch for Explosion over Toxic since being able to use both Explosion + Rapid Spin is one of Forretress' biggest selling points relative to Cloyster. Second set is the Curse set: Curse/Hidden Power Bug/Spikes/Rest. This set is more dependent on Forry's teammates to keep Spikes down, but is able to wall Curselax. Protect is generally a bad move in GSC, but is probably worth an OO mention on Forretress.

i don't think you should mention that forry resists starmie's psychic. starmie won't be hitting you with psychic.

i would avoid saying that forry is the best spiker in the game

protect is an other option at best really

hp fire should be mentioned as an other option. it has been used on occasion in the past as it ends forry vs forry stall wars with a 2hko (58-69% damage).

you should also mention when to use forry vs skarmory and forry vs cloyster. forry is setup fodder for a lot of things and is less effective at countering certain threats compared to skarmory, so i wouldn't say that forry is much of a substitute. cloyster is also a lot more useful on offensive teams in general.

I've edited the notes above in order to reflect the comments from Jorgen and gene. I still have questions about teammates and counters. Which pokemon work best with Forretress and why? Specific examples are great. Are there any glaring counters that I left out? Thanks for your input! I will begin write up by the end of this weekend.

"Teammates" for forretress would depend on the type of team you are building; and since GSC is almost fully-centralized around Spikes I think it would be better to look at it from the perspective of "what teams would do better with forry as their spiker over the other options?".

For example on a bellyzard team I would maybe opt for Forretress with Toxic+HP Bug over Cloyster if I want to put extra pressure on Starmie to get rid of it faster, as it is one of the team's biggest threats.

I'd rather use Cloy to bait and explode on Starmie. The whole point of Forry is to keep Starmie from switching in to begin with, so he's not really helping Charizard out all that much.

Forry is better on stallier teams that want to keep Spikes against Starmie, the best spinner in the game. Toxic immunity and access to Explosion + Rapid Spin on the same set are nice, but let's be real. The main reason to bother using Forretress is so you can keep Spikes against Starmie by threatening to 2HKO with STAB Hidden Power Bug.

I would prefer to save my spiker while getting rid of starmie instead of going one-for-one personally.

Depends on what is more important for you: exploding into Starmie (to open up Drumzard in that example) vs keeping spikes. aka Cloyster vs Forr respectively. But since your post focused more on setting up drumzard, that's not the best example for when to use forr over cloy imo. Of course you are going to have to sac spikes (and cloy for that matter) if you want to take out Starmie with Cloyster, but, on the other hand, Starmie never switches into Forr and Forr vs Starm is in general a very rare matchup, so Forr isn't useful for consistently wearing down / putting pressure on Starm imo.

Forr vs Cloy is basically that Forr is better at keeping spikes and Cloy is better at everything else; but also taking into account that, on one hand, Cloy also has a chance to keep spikes obviously (although smaller, depends on the opposing team, has problems with Starm) but, on the other hand, "everything else" is not that much. So I personally like Forr on slow teams whose main form of offense comes from keeping spikes and abusing it, and Cloy on either fast offensive teams or on stall teams in which spikes are not that important and mostly to punish offensive teams.

Overall the analysis looks very good, good job on this one =D

Psychic and Ice-type resistances aren't that important, I'd rewrite this to something like "Eye popping Base 140 Defense combined with Base 75 HP, along with resistance to Normal-type attacks and a bunch of other resistances, Toxic immunity, and only one weakness make Forretress one tough nut to crack."

When you compare Forr with Skarm, Forr's biggest drawback is its inability to phaze, which means that a lot of things will easily be able to set up into Forr. This sentence sounds like Forr is worse defensively than Skarm and Lix because of its SpD and lack of Recover which is obviously not true since all three share these two problems.

Cloyster also has a much faster Explosion for uses in emergency situations.

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The best sentence to describe both explosions is that Cloyster has a more dangerous explosion or that Forr has a much more limited explosion (due to being unable to do anything to steelis/gengar). Your sentence sounds like Cloy's explosion is only better becasue Cloy is (slightly) faster.

lol @ the slashes. I'd just make the last 2 slots of the first set Rapid Spin / Explosion and Toxic / Explosion, and then you could slash Reflect over Curse in the second set or just mention it in OO.

This set has one major goal- get Spikes down and keep them there. With its myraid of resistances and great defense Forretress will have plenty of opportunitites to switch in and set up entry hazards.

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After this I'd add that Forr should watch out for random fire moves when trying to set up spikes such as FB/FT Snorlax and HP Fire Exeggutor that will result into a ko.

Forretress's Explosion is slow but it can be extremely useful against switch-ins such as Snorlax, Vaporeon or Marowak that can easily set-up on Forretress while it Spikes. However, mispredicting an Explosion can be extremely detrimental.

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I'd emphasize that Forr's explosion is mostly useful as an emergency stop, and then you can list these 3 examples. But I'd focus more on the fact that Forr's explosion is very limited offensively.

Regarding Toxic, I'd also mention that it's good for nailing spin-blocking Missys who can't recover from posion unless your opponent bells.

Crystal's edits cover most of what I'd want to say with regards to the details. One more thing, though;

and boast good Special Defense. Suicune also boasts an important complementary resistance to Fire-type attacks that Forretress.

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I'd get rid of that from the AC section. Special Defense and Fire Resist are not things that should come to the fore when considering good Forry teammates. It's more emergent qualities that aren't so obvious, like those that the other teammates possess (aside from Misdreavus, whose spin-blocking prowess is fairly self-evident).


Also, I think we should really nail down what the standard set is. Generally, it's HP Bug + Spikes + Pick 2 of Rapid Spin/Reflect/Explosion/Toxic. To avoid needlessly convoluted slashed and to make the set I see as the best, I'd do it as follows:

HP Bug
Spikes
Rapid Spin
Toxic/Explosion

Toxic gives you the ultimate pure Spikes gamer, but Explosion takes advantage of one of Forry's advantages over Cloy: Explosion + Spin on the same set. Explosion/Toxic might be the more appropriate slashing, but I prefer Toxic because Forry can't do much with his Explosion other than threaten Drumlax or something.

In OO, I'd mention:

Reflect
Rest + Curse/Reflect
Protect
HP Fire/HP Ghost

Reflect gets put in OO because it doesn't really fit in well enough on the main set to justify all the slashes it'd require; maybe even put it in AC (along with the general note that the last two slots can be any combination of Rapid Spin/Reflect/Explosion/Toxic).

Rest + Curse/Reflect gets OO because it just isn't worth its own set; nobody really uses it and it sucks ass tbh. Its main purpose is to stall out Curse Snorlax and Heracross. Reflect gets a "slash" over Curse on this OO set to let Forry do something more for its team other than set up Spikes and just stall crap out.

Protect blocks Rapid Spin and Surf, gets extra Toxic damage, can net an extra turn of Leftovers, and scouts for Fire moves on stuff like Snorlax. Forry is probably the only instance where Protect is an acceptable move choice, mostly because it wants to scout Fire moves. That being said, Forry usually would rather have Reflect/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Explosion than their advantages are less subtle than those offered by Protect, and because Snorlax can just set up more Curses as you "whiff" the Protect.

HP fire is a gimmick for killing other Forr. HP Ghost hits Ghost-types who might block Rapid Spin or otherwise capitalize off of Forr.

Also, I think we should really nail down what the standard set is. Generally, it's HP Bug + Spikes + Pick 2 of Rapid Spin/Reflect/Explosion/Toxic. To avoid needlessly convoluted slashed and to make the set I see as the best, I'd do it as follows:

HP Bug
Spikes
Rapid Spin
Toxic/Explosion

Toxic gives you the ultimate pure Spikes gamer, but Explosion takes advantage of one of Forry's advantages over Cloy: Explosion + Spin on the same set. Explosion/Toxic might be the more appropriate slashing, but I prefer Toxic because Forry can't do much with his Explosion other than threaten Drumlax or something.

In OO, I'd mention:

Reflect
Rest + Curse/Reflect
Protect
HP Fire/HP Ghost

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That seems a very good idea to me too. As Jorgen pointed out, there is no need to make two different sets.

Jorgen and Crystal_ thank you for your awesome suggestions. I'm glad I waited on writing the second set! Your help has been invaluable!

Double posting to let the QC team know that the rough draft is now complete. Feel free to comment and give suggestions! [Approval 0/2]

Overview said:

The ability to set up entry hazards in OU is invaluable. While spikes are on the field every Pokemon without a Flying-type will lose 12.5% of their health upon switching in.

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Overview said:

Compared to Forretress Cloyster has better neutral coverage from STAB Surf and better synergy with offensive teams. Cloyster also has a much more dangerous Explosion.

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I'd nix these. The overview needs a trim, and this bit is more about Cloyster than it is about Forretress. Furthermore, all the talk of Forretress being a "Fortress" at the beginning implies that he's some sort of wall, but he really isn't. I'd tone down the emphasis in the beginning on his defenses and typing, since Forry just gets set up on and thus doesn't make very good use of its defensive typing aside from walling Giga Drain Exeggutor.

Set Comments said:

With Rapid Spin Forretress won't be automatic set-up bait for opposing Spikers.

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Not really true. Ghost types still block it, and Cloyster scares it out with Surf. Rapid Spin is more for when their Spiker dies, letting you spin away Spikes and be rid of them once and for all. It's not like Starmie who can just keep switching in all day to spin Spikes away.

Additional Comments said:

Zapdos makes for a great teammate to Forretress because of its tanking abilities and ability to force switches.

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Wow, this sounds really... generic. It's kind of just describing why Zapdos is good in general. I'd link it up more, make it less disjointed from Spikes - i.e., Zapdos is a good teammate because it especially benefits from Spikes support for wearing down Snorlax.

Additional Comments said:

Snorlax loves the Spikes support Forretress provides. Snorlax easily forces switches and the extra margin of damage from Spikes can make the difference when Snorlax is trying to break through tough opponents.

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In my experience Snorlax in general isn't a particularly notable beneficiary of Spikes. At least, not unless it's something like Fire Blast Curselax that needs the residual damage to wear down checks such as Gengar and Rhydon.

Other Options said:

Reflect can be used over Curse if getting to +2 Defense quickly is more necessary than the ability to boost in the long term.

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It's for team support, not faster Defense boosts.

Other Options said:

However, the two turns required to wake up from Rest will give the opponent the ability to set up on Forretress or phaze it. Even with Heal Bell support Forretress will be forced to sacrifice Curse boosts to switch. Using Curse + Rest effectively is difficult considering that even with several boosts Forretress main source of damage, Hidden Power Bug, will fail to do significant damage against or stall out top threats such as Skarmory.

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I think all of this should be cut. It's kind of aimless and a lot of it is questionable. Just say Curse + Rest is meant to stall things that use Curse to boost their Attack, namely Snorlax and Heracross. It's bad because it requires more effort to keep its Spikes (Forry's main purpose) and still doesn't effectively stall all that many things.

Other Options said:

It [Hidden Power Ghost] also deals super effective damage to Starmie.

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Don't say this. It's super-effective, but unlike HP Bug, lacks STAB and thus doesn't do enough to Starmie to matter.

Checks and Counters said:

Gengar deserves a mention for its immunity to Rapid Spin and Explosion, resistance to Hidden Power Bug and access to high powered special attacks.

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Immunity to Toxic is also a perk of using Gengar when taking on Forretress.



It's pretty solid all around. I'm just withholding approval for now because I've given a couple of open-ended suggestions.

Jorgen's suggestions have been entered. Approval Checks [0/2]

I know this isn't ready for gp approval but change:
[SET]
Name: Spikes
Move 1: Spikes
Move 2: Hidden Power Bug
Move 3: Rapid Spin/Explosion
Move 4: Toxic/Explosion
Item: Leftovers

to
[SET]
name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Hidden Power Bug
move 3: Rapid Spin / Explosion
move 4: Toxic / Explosion
item: Leftovers

thanks in advance

Sorry for not getting to this sooner, but I am glad that Jorgen, Crystal, gene, and Floppy has gone through it. This analysis is pretty much complete - stellar work, Lockeness!

The only major change I suggest is remove the Explosion-slash on Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is a big selling point for using Forretress in the first place - if I simply want Spikes + Explosion + Toxic, I would use Cloyster, who explodes much better. Jorgen also suggested this in post #10.

Other than that I have only minor nitpicks:

It should also be noted that Forretress can use that fourth slot to run a set with Explosion + Rapid Spin + Spikes, something Cloyster cannot do

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Replace something with "a move combination"

Beyond Spikes and the moves listed above Forretress has several other usable options.

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"Several" is a wrong adjective to use, since Forretress has a shitty movepool. Most of these options aren't that great anyways.

Originally Posted by Fat Checks and Counters
Gengar deserves a mention for its immunity to Rapid Spin and Explosion, resistance to Hidden Power Bug and access to high powered special attacks.
Immunity to Toxic is also a perk of using Gengar when taking on Forretress.

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Gengar is easily the best counter, it should at least go near Missy in C&C. Forr can't just do anything to Gengar who can also block spin. Forr + Gengar is probably the best combination to counter Forr unless your opponent can pursuit Gengar. Speaking of pursuiters, they are also good teammates for Forr and they also deserve a mention in AC imo.

Also this:

I'd emphasize that Forr's explosion is mostly useful as an emergency stop, and then you can list these 3 examples. But I'd focus more on the fact that Forr's explosion is very limited offensively.

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Thanks for all of your input; all of the aforementioned suggestions have been entered![Approval 0/2]

you win again, bro

Approved (1/2)

Explosion pre-BW halved the opponent's defense, so Forry actually does 97-114% to Zapdos.

Many thanks to Pocket, Crystal_, Jorgen, Draco, Floppy, Gene, and Sir for all of your assistance in making this analysis the best it can be! This analysis is ready for GP Checks.

At the least it will force an opponent to use Rest or Heal Bell sooner than they would have liked.

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This is just a cp mistake or something, but right now it's after explosion rather that after Toxic. So move it or just delete it.

Also, I'd mention Gengar too as a good teammate, although its not as reliable as missy as far as spinblocking is concerned, you can say its a more offensive option, and HP Bug Forr helps against Starmie, which is Gengar's main flaw over Missy due to Psyhcic weakness. Gar's immunty to toxic is seful against other spinning forrs.

Approval check 3/2? =)

Done now~





GP (1/2)